Topic: Welcome to Liverpool Thiago Alcantara

[El Lobo]

Incredible boost for Trent but almost wish Thiago had scored in the build up, was great technique

[bornandbRED]

What does he bring? Genuine question and one it seems Klopp is asking himself too as he didn’t start either leg. 

I’ve been reluctant to criticise but there’s no getting around the fact he’s been shite. Physically you’d perhaps expect some challenges but his supposed on the ball quality.... there has been 0 evidence of it. Overhitting a simple give and go with Salah tonight a prime example.

[Caligula?]

It's been an out of sorts season for everyone. Thiago himself wouldn't have expected to come in and asked to play a role that he never thought he would have to when we first signed him given our injury in defense.

That being said, I kind of agree with bornandbRED. It's mid-April. He's being played where he would have expected to be played for a while now. He has no goals and no assists. I'd have expected at least flashes of brilliance here and there. Maybe a goal. Maybe an assist. Absolutely bossing the midfield ala Xabi Alonso. Something that'll give you the confidence that he'd definitely work out here. But we've really seen none of that. That being said, I suppose we'll see how he gets on next season.

[Ghost Town]

What does he bring? Genuine question and one it seems Klopp is asking himself too as he didn’t start either leg. 

Ah yes, the old 'Klopp agrees with ME' lie

I’ve been reluctant to criticise

Nurse!

but there’s no getting around the fact he’s been shite.

Proper supporter, dat

Physically you’d perhaps expect some challenges but his supposed on the ball quality.... there has been 0 evidence of it. Overhitting a simple give and go with Salah tonight a prime example.

A player sometimes has bad touches shocker!

[Dave McCoy]

The reports were that Klopp pushed for the Thiago signing specifically.  We could have waited until this summer and paid nothing instead we shelled out a lot of money in a pandemic on top of almost squad high wages to not start him in the most important games of our season at this point.  I don't think it speaks well of anybody at the club but maybe I'm biased as my previous posts in this thread have shown I haven't thought all that highly of him while saying I think he's playing just as well as he played elsewhere.  I just don't think he's what the club needed and maybe that's not all his fault.

So just like the other players who haven't hit the highs we hoped they would we go to next year.  The hope is that with CB's that won't get beat for pace and can actually start attacks on their own that maybe every one will revert to 2019 form?  At least that's what I'm hoping for as I don't think the club will have all that many other options.  Thiago isn't going to get better though.  Either the players around him do or we'll be having this same conversation next year if not worse.

[Eeyore]

The reports were that Klopp pushed for the Thiago signing specifically.  We could have waited until this summer and paid nothing instead we shelled out a lot of money in a pandemic on top of almost squad high wages to not start him in the most important games of our season at this point.  I don't think it speaks well of anybody at the club but maybe I'm biased as my previous posts in this thread have shown I haven't thought all that highly of him while saying I think he's playing just as well as he played elsewhere.  I just don't think he's what the club needed and maybe that's not all his fault.

So just like the other players who haven't hit the highs we hoped they would we go to next year.  The hope is that with CB's that won't get beat for pace and can actually start attacks on their own that maybe every one will revert to 2019 form?  At least that's what I'm hoping for as I don't think the club will have all that many other options.  Thiago isn't going to get better though.  Either the players around him do or we'll be having this same conversation next year if not worse.

His role is to be the cherry on the cake of a pressing team. A player who makes the difference. A disguised pass or a feint. At the moment he is being asked to be the cake.

[Ghost Town]

His role is to be the cherry on the cake of a pressing team. A player who makes the difference. A disguised pass or a feint. At the moment he is being asked to be the cake.

Yep, and people are also reading too much of what they want to read (dour, negative, sky falling stuff) in his not starting. Only eleven players can start and the manager has to make a selection for the situation, context and oppsoition. Sometimes great players can miss out simply because, for example, the manager feels that Milner's put-it-about-and-hand-it-out snidery is needed towards the start of the game, to give them a few studmarks and let them know they're in a game. 

[Fromola]

His role is to be the cherry on the cake of a pressing team. A player who makes the difference. A disguised pass or a feint. At the moment he is being asked to be the cake.

He was great at Arsenal next to Fabinho in what looked like a Klopp Liverpool team again. He's been left out since.

[plura]

If Robertson would have chested the ball down instead of letting it run past him he'd be clear through with a good chance for us. Sure Thiago missed a few but he creates something at any given time. Rather have Thiago's passes than Salahs weak chip passes into the box. Or the endless passes from Gini to the guy next to him. I'd love to see Thiago try to shoot more, as should all our players do.

[decosabute]

His role is to be the cherry on the cake of a pressing team. A player who makes the difference. A disguised pass or a feint. At the moment he is being asked to be the cake.

Can understand people's frustration with him and last night he wasn't effective enough at all, but the above post is a good line and sums it up. It's rare that he's played with a specialist DM beside him, and when he has, he's usually looked good. I think it was a mistake from Klopp to move Fabinho at the same time Thiago came on. We never had the same balance or the right platform to build pressure from after that.

It is weird that he's been dropped to the bench right after starting to show his class in the Leipzig second leg and against Arsenal.

[JackWard33]

He was great at Arsenal next to Fabinho in what looked like a Klopp Liverpool team again. He's been left out since.

They looked world class together - mystifying he then went away from it, maybe its fitness - no idea

[FlashGordon]

They looked world class together - mystifying he then went away from it, maybe its fitness - no idea

Didn't you want to drop Fabinho back in to defence for the second leg? 

[ac]

At the moment he looks like a poor fit for this team where midfielders need to be able have good defensive capabilities. He is clumsy at tackling or even intercepting the ball and he looks like he treading water when running back. Perhaps the solution is to play him as 10 in a 4-2-3 -1 role but I am on the evidence of his attacking play with us I am not sure he will get enough goals and assists to justify being in that role.

[CraigDS]

At the moment he looks like a poor fit for this team where midfielders need to be able have good defensive capabilities. He is clumsy at tackling or even intercepting the ball and he looks like he treading water when running back.

A lot said the same about Fabinho when he was first coming through here.

[Ravishing Rick Dude]

He would fit better in Pep teams i think. Someone like Kroos would fit better with us.

[CraigDS]

He would fit better in Pep teams i think. Someone like Kroos would fit better with us.

I think he'd fit fine here with a better player with him in midfield (along with Fab), and with more than 1 of the front 3 playing even close to their best form.

[JackWard33]

Didn't you want to drop Fabinho back in to defence for the second leg? 

I said it was a really tough call either way didnt i?
Dunno I say a lot of things....
I’d have started Thiago either way fwiw

[amir87]

He's clearly not shite. Ridiculous people even think that.

He looked very good until he had his knee smashed by the bluenose thug. Arguably man of the match in that game and he had Henderson and Fabinho to supplement his qualities. I don't think they've played together since.

I'd be a bit more patient with him.

[El Lobo]

He's definitely not one to bring on if we need a goal though!

Agree with Jack, think we should have started him....but then I thought Gini and Millie were both good on Wednesday too so its a toughie. Bringing him on and then moving Fab to CB was a bit odd but I dont particularly think it impacted anything considering Real had practically parked the bus at that point anyway.

[Bobinhood]

Not that odd. We kept it tight for an hour and then began to gamble more, a perfectly good game plan. Fabhino was moved to 'deeper cdm" not really cb and Thiago was meant to find the killer pass.

but f all worked. none of our dice rolls worked at all. Jota didnt get a sniff no killer pass was forthcomg Ox never touched the ball shaq tried hard but was well marshaled.  Needed to have taken one of the first half chances. Credit to Real they held firm.

[MD1990]

Remember he came back & played very well against Newcastle.
He was good vs Man Utd as well. Good vs Spurs

It is strange his performances since bar the 1st leg against Leipzig have got worse.

He was very poor against Wolves.

[Ravishing Rick Dude]

I think he'd fit fine here with a better player with him in midfield (along with Fab), and with more than 1 of the front 3 playing even close to their best form.

Henderson Fab Thiago?

Have we tried that this season though? With all the injuries i don't know anymore

[keyop]

He's clearly not shite. Ridiculous people even think that.

He looked very good until he had his knee smashed by the bluenose thug. Arguably man of the match in that game and he had Henderson and Fabinho to supplement his qualities. I don't think they've played together since.

I'd be a bit more patient with him.

Yep. Patience is key with any player, especially one who has been elite for over 10 years, won everything, and who broke premier league passing records in his first 45 minutes.

That was clearly a serious injury which kept him out for much longer than originally expected, and which will have affected his game -even after recovering. When he came back, our team and system was already struggling compared to when he made his debut.

I think next season we'll see the best of him when he has a settled team around him, and everyone has gotten this freak season out of their system.

[Fromola]

At the moment he looks like a poor fit for this team where midfielders need to be able have good defensive capabilities. He is clumsy at tackling or even intercepting the ball and he looks like he treading water when running back. Perhaps the solution is to play him as 10 in a 4-2-3 -1 role but I am on the evidence of his attacking play with us I am not sure he will get enough goals and assists to justify being in that role.

What defensive contribution is Wijnaldum making?

[bornandbRED]

Ah yes, the old 'Klopp agrees with ME' lie:lmao

Nurse!
Proper supporter, dat
A player sometimes has bad touches shocker!

Odd response. It’s not about lying nor Klopp agreeing with me - what I think does not matter. That the manager feels the need to drop him for our two biggest games of the season is a red flag for anyone that doesn’t wish to clap their hands around their ears.

It’s not one bad touch but something that’s been pervading his game all season. That’s without delving into some inexplicable actions off the ball. So far he’s been... below par to say the least and at 30 with that reputation you’d expect a class act who can drag the team through shit and raise our level (there has been absolutely no sign of this - the opposite in fact)  rather than someone who needs perfect conditions to be able to shine.

[johnj147]

I have very disappointed with him to be honest .then fab comes back in midfield he looks better.then klopp drop's him in the big euro games ..don't get it to be honest?

[ac]

What defensive contribution is Wijnaldum making?

Its not what it was but we know what he can do defensively in Klopp team. Whats your point?

[Coolie High]

He’ll come good, i don’t think he’s actually played bad anyways, he isn’t a final third passer like De Bruyne, he has always been the facilitator and the player who can take players out the game with his dribbling, don’t see him doing much wrong in most games.

[Coolie High]

Odd response. It’s not about lying nor Klopp agreeing with me - what I think does not matter. That the manager feels the need to drop him for our two biggest games of the season is a red flag for anyone that doesn’t wish to clap their hands around their ears.

It’s not one bad touch but something that’s been pervading his game all season. That’s without delving into some inexplicable actions off the ball. So far he’s been... below par to say the least and at 30 with that reputation you’d expect a class act who can drag the team through shit and raise our level (there has been absolutely no sign of this - the opposite in fact)  rather than someone who needs perfect conditions to be able to shine.

When do deep lying playmakers ever do this...

[deFacto please, you bastards]

When do deep lying playmakers ever do this...

He's never been that type of player either, anyone who has watched him play throughout his career, he's never been like that. I'm not sure what people were actually expecting. He was injured for half of the season, didn't have pre-season with us either, and started playing when we as a team have struggled all over the place.

[Beninger]

I don’t see a problem with the way he’s playing. But I didn’t have any preconceptions either.

[Dave McCoy]

He's never been that type of player either, anyone who has watched him play throughout his career, he's never been like that. I'm not sure what people were actually expecting. He was injured for half of the season, didn't have pre-season with us either, and started playing when we as a team have struggled all over the place.

And yet I'd argue he's played just as he did at Bayern and that anybody thinking they'll see a different player next year or under certain conditions are smoking something.

[Jon2lfc]

I think he'll only be good for the system Klopp plays if he plays in a MF 3 with Hendo and Fab.

Otherwise he'll forever flatter to deceive.

[B0151?]

And yet I'd argue he's played just as he did at Bayern and that anybody thinking they'll see a different player next year or under certain conditions are smoking something.

Thing is if we're winning most games next season and competing for the title, people will see what he's doing in a different light. Look at the difference in the way people have been talking about Gini this season compared to last for example. Playing in a winning team massively helps the perception of players who don't get goals or assists.

[Dave McCoy]

I think he'll only be good for the system Klopp plays if he plays in a MF 3 with Hendo and Fab.

Otherwise he'll forever flatter to deceive.

He's like one of the highest earners on the team now.  I don't agree with this but if it were actually true it would be a massive failure by the club as far as a transfer decision.

Thing is if we're winning most games next season and competing for the title, people will see what he's doing in a different light. Look at the difference in the way people have been talking about Gini this season compared to last for example. Playing in a winning team massively helps the perception of players who don't get goals or assists.

Agree 100% with this.

[keyop]

Thing is if we're winning most games next season and competing for the title, people will see what he's doing in a different light. Look at the difference in the way people have been talking about Gini this season compared to last for example. Playing in a winning team massively helps the perception of players who don't get goals or assists.

100% this.

Perceptions have been skewed massively this season - of players, of Klopp, and of the system. Some people seemingly  have to have someone to blame, when the reality is we've had 10 years worth of injuries and bad luck in 6 months.

[Ghost Town]

Odd response. It’s not about lying nor Klopp agreeing with me - what I think does not matter. That the manager feels the need to drop him for our two biggest games of the season is a red flag for anyone that doesn’t wish to clap their hands around their ears.

It's only a "red flag" for people who spend all their time looking for alleged "red flags" so they can be harp on about them. For everyone else the manager has to make selections; his choices are dictated by all sorts of things that are particular to that very game on that very day against that very opposition in that very context.

Sometimes a good, or even great, player has to sit it out because another player (maybe one not as good) has something that is needed in that game. I'm not saying that was, or was not, the case in this instance but I am saying there's more to a manager's decisions then the black/white simplistics that some of you seem to thrive on.

In the fullness of time we'll see how fitting a player he is for this club...or whether he's not. A bit of patience, particularly in these extraordinary times, is not only called for, but essential.

[Dave McCoy]

It's only a "red flag" for people who spend all their time looking for alleged "red flags" so they can be harp on about them. For everyone else the manager has to make selections; his choices are dictated by all sorts of things that are particular to that very game on that very day against that very opposition in that very context.

Sometimes a good, or even great, player has to sit it out because another player (maybe one not as good) has something that is needed in that game. I'm not saying that was, or was not, the case in this instance but I am saying there's more to a manager's decisions then the black/white simplistics that some of you seem to thrive on.

In the fullness of time we'll see how fitting a player he is for this club...or whether he's not. A bit of patience, particularly in these extraordinary times, is not only called for, but essential.

On the flip side you don't pay the fee and wages for a player at his age with only 12 months left on their contract unless you're sure they're going to improve your starting XI.  If he's just there to be a squad player then why bother?  So it wouldn't be off for someone to say not getting chosen to start for both Madrid games is a bit of a red flag for someone that was expected to be a difference maker.

[Ghost Town]

On the flip side you don't pay the fee and wages for a player at his age with only 12 months left on their contract unless you're sure they're going to improve your starting XI.  If he's just there to be a squad player then why bother?  So it wouldn't be off for someone to say not getting chosen to start for both Madrid games is a bit of a red flag for someone that was expected to be a difference maker.

But the context we are in, and the exact context of the game(s) in question were not known when the player was bought and the fee paid. There's only so much foresight a manager can have, and this season has thrown foresight, and expectations, right out of the window.

In any case that was just one example that I gave; another might be that there's nothing wrong with Thiago, in the manager's eyes, but rather that another player is just not currently meshing with him; if the manager decides that that other player is essential for that game then maybe Thiago has to start on the bench while a player who will combine well gets the start. There's a lot more to selection then just picking the best players like we used to in the school playground..

And it's not like he's been shoved into the reserves. He's a key part of the match squad, and got significant minutes in both games.

Another aspect people are overlooking is that the five subs provision can affect the manager's selection, too; knowing he has the luxury of bringing players on in a strategic way, rather than just a reactive one.

[Dave McCoy]

But the context we are in, and the exact context of the game(s) in question were not known when the player was bought and the fee paid. There's only so much foresight a manager can have, and this season has thrown foresight, and expectations, right out of the window.

In any case that was just one example that I gave; another might be that there's nothing wrong with Thiago, in the manager's eyes, but rather that another player is just not currently meshing with him; if the manager decides that that other player is essential for that game then maybe Thiago has to start on the bench while a player who will combine well gets the start. There's a lot more to selection then just picking the best players like we used to in the school playground..

And it's not like he's been shoved into the reserves. He's a key part of the match squad, and got significant minutes in both games.

Another aspect people are overlooking is that the five subs provision can affect the manager's selection, too; knowing he has the luxury of bringing players on in a strategic way, rather than just a reactive one.

You're starting to sound like other posters when you mention context ie. what we thought the team would be when Thiago was bought didn't happen so now it's understandable that Thiago isn't playing.  Is that what you mean?  If you're buying someone that is supposed to improve your starting XI but injuries make that impossible then it calls into question all of the presumptions that were made to make the decision.  Injuries and loss of form happen all the time.  If a player is only able to improve a starting XI under "ideal" conditions then how often is the "ideal" ever going to happen during their career at LFC?  Especially when you consider the age profile and contract situation of the team, it's only a year or so away from a massive amount of changes regardless.  Wouldn't that context then be null and void for a player that has another 1 or 2 years on their contract after everybody else?

In a lot of ways I'm just playing devils advocate here since neither Klopp or Edwards will ever come out and say the truth.  But also I think people need to realize that Thiago just is what he is at this point and it's probably not going to get better if you're already disappointed aside from the team just winning more as B0151? is noting.