Poll

RAWK and Brexit

No Deal!
65 (8.8%)
Mays Deal!
14 (1.9%)
No Brexit!
539 (72.8%)
Don't Know
10 (1.4%)
Don't Care
15 (2%)
I don't live in the UK
97 (13.1%)

Total Members Voted: 740

Author Topic: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"  (Read 1446711 times)

Offline Zeb

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Re: Brexit thread with Lefties, Tories, bloods, wastoids, Dweebs & dickheads.....?
« Reply #13680 on: February 8, 2019, 10:05:47 pm »
Quote
A crunch vote in which MPs could force Theresa May’s hand on Brexit is set to be delayed until the end of the month or even later, it has emerged, as the prime minister travelled to Dublin for urgent talks with fewer than 50 days left to departure from the EU.

Under the timetable agreed by the government, May must either present a revised Brexit deal to the Commons on Thursday, which appears unlikely to happen, or else table a motion to which MPs can add amendments.

In a similar process just over a week ago, the Commons supported May’s attempt to renegotiate the Irish backstop but voted down amendments tabled by cross-party alliances of Brexit-sceptic MPs that would have extended article 50 and given parliament more control.

It had been expected the MPs would try again on Thursday if May did not return with a deal. But sources close to the group, led by the Tory MP Nick Boles and Labour’s Yvette Cooper, said it seemed likely that the prime minister would be given more time to discuss a Labour Brexit proposal and hold more talks with Brussels.

“The Tory MPs are keen to give the PM a chance to follow up on the cross-party talks, and negotiations with the EU,” the source said. A bill laying out how MPs could seek to avoid a no-deal departure may nonetheless be published next week, they said.

“There’s a definite sense that lots of Tories are worried about no deal, but they don’t want to look like they are trying to obstruct her negotiations,” the source said. “There is very definitely a majority in parliament against no deal, but it’s a question of how to proceed and when.”

Guardian

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Re: Brexit thread with Lefties, Tories, bloods, wastoids, Dweebs & dickheads.....?
« Reply #13681 on: February 8, 2019, 10:36:55 pm »
I am always surprised that support for leave is so strong. Its blindingly obvious it will be bad for everybody, so what is it that so many people are prepared to suffer for? Surely a large group of the leave supporters must realise that, but are prepared to pay the price. What for?

There is an American political scientist (Fukuyama) who argues it is all about identity, that the middle classes feel their identity (which in this case is their feeling of being British) is under threat. I would argue that in contrast to most Brits, many Europeans have developed a 'European' identity. Because of this new identity, they don't fear the loss of their old national identity as much. This development has been supported by the governments and media of those countries, while it has been actively undermined in the UK. An exception are probably the young British, who largely also feel European first. If this is true, then the way to strengthen the remain vote is to support the development of a European identity (as in British-in-Europe), more than economical arguments.

I work with a LOT of Leave voters and they all agree on this point: Brexit will begin the break up of the EU. They follow this up with the problems in France, Germany, Italy and Greece. They sincerely believe that a trade deal with the EU is unnecessary as it won't exist in a few years time.

I've given up discussing Brexit with them anymore because no matter how many sensible questions you put to them, they come back with illogical or uninformed replies.
"What's passive smoking? There's passive lots of things. Like passive listening to shitheads. I have to put up with that every day. Are you going to ban people from talking crap? They give me a headache. Believe me, they're killing me. One day people's conversations on the street will do me in." Terry Hall

Offline BobOnATank

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Re: Brexit thread with Lefties, Tories, bloods, wastoids, Dweebs & dickheads.....?
« Reply #13682 on: February 8, 2019, 11:06:19 pm »
Guardian

Quote
“The Tory MPs are keen to give the PM a chance to follow up on the cross-party talks, and negotiations with the EU,” the source said

I do love the way they think they are still "negotiating", quite funny really. Leo tonight said he was just going to dinner with May and co and any negotiation would always have to be between the UK and EU only.

I think its slowly sinking into thick Westminster heads that it was always an unwinnable scenario, not because of punishment or anything but simply because it was not within the gift of the EU to even offer a solution that the headbanging ERG lot want. Moggs, Johnson's and those types relative silence at this time means they are very much well aware and do not want to be tarred with the inevitable outcome of the UK becoming a rule taker having given up so much for no reason.

Offline killer-heels

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Re: Brexit thread with Lefties, Tories, bloods, wastoids, Dweebs & dickheads.....?
« Reply #13683 on: February 8, 2019, 11:10:31 pm »
Guardian



Those cabinet Remainers really are a joke. They have ducked every single vote and used the line of not having the fight right now. They have kicked their own can down the road themselves.

Also the insistence against No Deal is such arrogance by MP’s. Its like they believe that this process now can be stopped by them.

Offline Sammy5IsAlive

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Re: Brexit thread with Lefties, Tories, bloods, wastoids, Dweebs & dickheads.....?
« Reply #13684 on: February 8, 2019, 11:33:09 pm »
I work with a LOT of Leave voters and they all agree on this point: Brexit will begin the break up of the EU. They follow this up with the problems in France, Germany, Italy and Greece. They sincerely believe that a trade deal with the EU is unnecessary as it won't exist in a few years time.

I've given up discussing Brexit with them anymore because no matter how many sensible questions you put to them, they come back with illogical or uninformed replies.

Depends where you come at it from I guess. As a general principle, seeing the break-up of the EU as a good thing and a situation that would benefit us is clearly a bit mental. The only thing that prevents individual EU nations from being rolled over economically by the US/China/Russia is their collective power as EU member states 

If you put that aside though I don't think it is that far-fetched to suggest that the EU is struggling a bit and becoming less stable. They've been rioting for weeks in Paris, nobody is any the wiser as to who will step into the vacuum in Germany when Merkel steps down, there is a significant Catalonian secessionist movement in Spain, 'hard-right' parties making electoral gains in Italy and Sweden and parties even further right than that in E. Europe. From that perspective the EU is a bit of a basketcase and it doesn't seem at all impossible that it could eventually fracture and come crashing down .

If anything Corbyn's '7/10' looks a little generous at the moment. The issue is that even if it is 2 or 3 out of 10 that is still better than the 0/10 option of being in isolation and being bent over a barrel by the real big boys.

Offline thejbs

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Re: Brexit thread with Lefties, Tories, bloods, wastoids, Dweebs & dickheads.....?
« Reply #13685 on: February 8, 2019, 11:54:01 pm »



From work I cited earlier found within this.

The most vehemently pro-remain group in the UK is being represented by the most vicious brexiteer shitehawks in the country. Astounding.

Offline Sammy5IsAlive

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Re: Brexit thread with Lefties, Tories, bloods, wastoids, Dweebs & dickheads.....?
« Reply #13686 on: February 9, 2019, 12:47:23 am »
The most vehemently pro-remain group in the UK is being represented by the most vicious brexiteer shitehawks in the country. Astounding.

Their representatives don't take their seats in parliament. Not casting judgement on whether that is the right thing to do or not but that is the situation.

I'd also imagine that all the DUP voters plus a proportion of 'softer' Unionists would identify as being in the baseline 'British' grouping rather than as Irish/N.Irish
« Last Edit: February 9, 2019, 01:46:50 am by Sammy5IsAlive »

Offline BobOnATank

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Re: Brexit thread with Lefties, Tories, bloods, wastoids, Dweebs & dickheads.....?
« Reply #13687 on: February 9, 2019, 01:27:38 am »
Their representatives don't take their seats in parliament. Not casting judgement on whether that is the right thing to do or not but that is the situation.

Does it matter as power resides in (no particular order) Dublin, Paris, Berlin, Rome, Warsaw, Madrid, Prague, Budapest, Vienna, Amsterdam etc...

Offline Banquo's Ghost

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Re: Brexit thread with Lefties, Tories, bloods, wastoids, Dweebs & dickheads.....?
« Reply #13688 on: February 9, 2019, 02:27:40 am »
I work with a LOT of Leave voters and they all agree on this point: Brexit will begin the break up of the EU. They follow this up with the problems in France, Germany, Italy and Greece. They sincerely believe that a trade deal with the EU is unnecessary as it won't exist in a few years time.

Astonishing thought process they have.

Because clearly a fracturing Europe, with populations embracing far right nationalists was so successful in the twentieth century we really ought to try it for the third time.  :butt
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Offline Red-Soldier

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Re: Brexit thread with Lefties, Tories, bloods, wastoids, Dweebs & dickheads.....?
« Reply #13689 on: February 9, 2019, 10:47:10 am »
Just as an aside, I fucking hate the Huffpost's ridiculously convoluted "oath" system on privacy that is clearly intended to be as complicated as possible to put people off adjusting cookie settings.

I don't use the site for that reason.

Offline Zeb

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Re: Brexit thread with Lefties, Tories, bloods, wastoids, Dweebs & dickheads.....?
« Reply #13690 on: February 9, 2019, 10:49:17 am »
The most vehemently pro-remain group in the UK is being represented by the most vicious brexiteer shitehawks in the country. Astounding.

Yeah. The one which stands out a lot to me is the 'European' identity. 19% remain, 80% did not vote. Did not vote because the overwhelming majority could not.
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Offline thejbs

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Re: Brexit thread with Lefties, Tories, bloods, wastoids, Dweebs & dickheads.....?
« Reply #13691 on: February 9, 2019, 12:57:30 pm »
Their representatives don't take their seats in parliament. Not casting judgement on whether that is the right thing to do or not but that is the situation.

I'd also imagine that all the DUP voters plus a proportion of 'softer' Unionists would identify as being in the baseline 'British' grouping rather than as Irish/N.Irish

My representative is in parliament lobbying for a hard brexit despite her south Belfast constituency voting 2:1 to remain.

Offline ShakaHislop

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Re: Brexit thread with Lefties, Tories, bloods, wastoids, Dweebs & dickheads.....?
« Reply #13692 on: February 9, 2019, 01:21:35 pm »
Brexit: Seaborne Freight no-deal ferry contract scrapped

Quote
A controversial ferry contract awarded to a company with no ships as part of no-deal Brexit plans has been scrapped, the government has said.

Ministers had faced criticism for the £13.8m deal with Seaborne Freight, which the BBC found had never run a ferry service.

The Department for Transport said it decided to axe the deal after the company's Irish backer pulled out.

The government says it is in "advanced talks" to find another ferry firm.

Responding to the cancelled contract, Labour has called on Transport Secretary Chris Grayling to resign or be sacked, describing him as "the worst secretary of state ever".

The Daily Telegraph said Arklow Shipping, a major Irish shipping firm, withdrew its support from Seaborne "without warning".

Seaborne Freight was awarded the £13.8m contract in December to run a freight service between Ramsgate and Ostend, Belgium, in the event that Britain leaves the EU without a deal.

But the government faced strong criticism for choosing Seaborne Freight, a company with no ships or trading history, and for leaving too little time to establish the new ferry service before the Brexit deadline of 29 March.

At the time, the government said it awarded the contract "in the full knowledge" that Seaborne was "a new shipping provider" but said the company had been "carefully vetted".

But on Saturday, the Department for Transport (DfT) said that it had become clear that Seaborne "would not reach its contractual requirements", after Arklow Shipping backed out of the deal.

A spokesman said: "The government is already in advanced talks with a number of companies to secure additional freight capacity - including through the Port of Ramsgate - in the event of a no-deal Brexit."

Thanet District Council - which covers Ramsgate - said it was "disappointing" that Arklow Shipping had pulled out of the deal. The council said it was in talks with the DfT about the port's role "in terms of supporting Brexit resilience".

Quote
The government said that no taxpayer money has been transferred to Seaborne.

It added that its confidence in the viability of the deal with Seaborne was based on Arklow Shipping's backing of the company and the assurances it received from them.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47182361

Offline Lush is the best medicine...

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Re: Brexit thread with Lefties, Tories, bloods, wastoids, Dweebs & dickheads.....?
« Reply #13693 on: February 9, 2019, 01:27:11 pm »
Just amazed an idea that was the brainchild of Chris Grayling could fail like this

Offline BobOnATank

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Re: Brexit thread with Lefties, Tories, bloods, wastoids, Dweebs & dickheads.....?
« Reply #13694 on: February 9, 2019, 01:39:06 pm »
Brexit: Seaborne Freight no-deal ferry contract scrapped

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47182361

Wonderful irony that the deal fell apart due to the foreign company (Irish in this case) pulling its support - well allegedly of course as its not really beyond the realms of possibility that graylings people are telling porkies.

Offline Team Sleep

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Re: Brexit thread with Lefties, Tories, bloods, wastoids, Dweebs & dickheads.....?
« Reply #13695 on: February 9, 2019, 01:59:46 pm »
https://twitter.com/CarolineLucas/status/1093798663325929473

Caroline Lucas really is a standout politician.

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Re: Brexit thread with Lefties, Tories, bloods, wastoids, Dweebs & dickheads.....?
« Reply #13696 on: February 9, 2019, 02:24:08 pm »
Just amazed an idea that was the brainchild of Chris Grayling could fail like this
It shows this is not all about right/left wing ideology f,,, up the country, it's also about competency. these idiots really haven't got a clue. they will spend the next few yrs either denying anything's wrong or blaming the EU for our problems, I wish I could believe the opposition knew what they were doing but all I see is inexperience. MPs holding positions because of leadership loyalty rather than the skills to actually do the job, it's either right wing radical change or left wing radical change, it means were fu,, either way.
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Offline BobOnATank

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Re: Brexit thread with Lefties, Tories, bloods, wastoids, Dweebs & dickheads.....?
« Reply #13697 on: February 9, 2019, 02:59:34 pm »

Brexit: Netherlands talking to 250 firms about leaving UK

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/feb/09/brexit-uk-companies-discuss-moving-to-netherlands

Some highlights...

Quote
The BBC is considering setting up an international base in Belgium.


Quote
France has identified 50 companies, including motor and pharmaceutical industries, that it is trying to entice across the Channel.
Last month President Emmanuel Macron hosted an investment summit for more than 140 business leaders, including bosses of companies with a significant British presence, such as Goldman Sachs, Google and Siemens.

Offline Millie

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Re: Brexit thread with Lefties, Tories, bloods, wastoids, Dweebs & dickheads.....?
« Reply #13698 on: February 9, 2019, 03:17:47 pm »
If a Parliamentary Candidate had a manifesto stating they he/she would do everything in their power to make sure that huge Companies left the UK to set up in mainland Europe, they would make it difficult for students to study in the rest of Europe, make it difficult to import vital medicines, and food stuff etc etc - I could go on but you get the gist;  no one in their right mind would every vote for them.

Yet here we are  ::)
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Offline Iska

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Re: Brexit thread with Lefties, Tories, bloods, wastoids, Dweebs & dickheads.....?
« Reply #13699 on: February 9, 2019, 03:54:16 pm »
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2019/02/i-talked-my-leave-voting-constituents-about-brexit-what-i-learnt

I saw this earlier and it did resonate, but on reflection very little of it is to do directly with brexit.  The only thing that is is the passage about Sports Direct effectively only recruiting from abroad, which they can do cheap because gangmasters have somehow come to control the labour supply and can undercut any local workers.  The country turning a blind eye to that crap *is* a cause of this in my view.

The rest of it is mostly despair at the modern world though, and the tragedy of the present moment is that it just happens to be the EU that the vote was on.

Offline Libertine

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Re: Brexit thread with Lefties, Tories, bloods, wastoids, Dweebs & dickheads.....?
« Reply #13700 on: February 9, 2019, 05:10:32 pm »
Brexit: Netherlands talking to 250 firms about leaving UK

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/feb/09/brexit-uk-companies-discuss-moving-to-netherlands

Some highlights...


Great - driving up rental/property prices here even more.....

Online west_london_red

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Re: Brexit thread with Lefties, Tories, bloods, wastoids, Dweebs & dickheads.....?
« Reply #13701 on: February 9, 2019, 07:01:38 pm »
Great - driving up rental/property prices here even more.....

That’s capitalism for you.
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Offline Dr. Beaker

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Re: Brexit thread with Lefties, Tories, bloods, wastoids, Dweebs & dickheads.....?
« Reply #13702 on: February 9, 2019, 07:49:53 pm »
Great - driving up rental/property prices here even more.....
And wages.
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Re: Brexit thread with Lefties, Tories, bloods, wastoids, Dweebs & dickheads.....?
« Reply #13703 on: February 9, 2019, 08:46:25 pm »
Great - driving up rental/property prices here even more.....

Stupid immigrants, coming here driving up property prices....

Online west_london_red

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Re: Brexit thread with Lefties, Tories, bloods, wastoids, Dweebs & dickheads.....?
« Reply #13704 on: February 9, 2019, 09:06:33 pm »
Stupid immigrants, coming here driving up property prices....

‘Yup, free movement, the single market are great... unless they negatively affect me in which case they are bad!’

Sounds a bit NIMBY to me.
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Offline Libertine

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Re: Brexit thread with Lefties, Tories, bloods, wastoids, Dweebs & dickheads.....?
« Reply #13705 on: February 9, 2019, 09:15:41 pm »
‘Yup, free movement, the single market are great... unless they negatively affect me in which case they are bad!’

Sounds a bit NIMBY to me.

Yeah, was just a tonque in cheek comment  ::) as I'm one of those that just moved here....

And wages.

Not in academia unfortunately  :( though they do have some nice tax breaks for those moving here.

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Re: Brexit thread with Lefties, Tories, bloods, wastoids, Dweebs & dickheads.....?
« Reply #13706 on: February 9, 2019, 09:24:57 pm »
Yeah, was just a tonque in cheek comment  ::) as I'm one of those that just moved here....


It did confuse me as I thought you lived in Ireland?
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Offline Dr. Beaker

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Re: Brexit thread with Lefties, Tories, bloods, wastoids, Dweebs & dickheads.....?
« Reply #13708 on: February 9, 2019, 09:59:41 pm »
Mostly pissed, as I ever am when I contribute on here, and I'm watching Last Train to Lisbon, with tears threatening at the mere thought of us breaking ties with these rich cultures to the south - not to mention, our oldest ally.
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Offline Libertine

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Re: Brexit thread with Lefties, Tories, bloods, wastoids, Dweebs & dickheads.....?
« Reply #13709 on: February 9, 2019, 10:18:00 pm »
It did confuse me as I thought you lived in Ireland?

No, not for a long time now. Was in the UK for many years, recently moved to the Netherlands, (very) slowly making my way across Europe.....

Offline killer-heels

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Re: Brexit thread with Lefties, Tories, bloods, wastoids, Dweebs & dickheads.....?
« Reply #13710 on: February 9, 2019, 10:18:51 pm »
We'll see.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/feb/09/back-theresa-may-brexit-deal-then-hold-peoples-vote-backbencher-plan

Cannot see that getting through parliament, support for a second vote seems very low. On top of that, it seems that MP are likely to push the process right to the end and even ask for an extension first.

Also that doesnt seem to put the peovision of No Deal on the ballot.

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Re: Brexit thread with Lefties, Tories, bloods, wastoids, Dweebs & dickheads.....?
« Reply #13711 on: February 9, 2019, 10:41:08 pm »
Yeah, was just a tonque in cheek comment  ::) as I'm one of those that just moved here....

Not in academia unfortunately  :( though they do have some nice tax breaks for those moving here.

For the record I took it that way and my response was also tongue in cheek  :P

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Re: Brexit thread with Lefties, Tories, bloods, wastoids, Dweebs & dickheads.....?
« Reply #13712 on: February 9, 2019, 11:14:26 pm »
Mostly pissed, as I ever am when I contribute on here, and I'm watching Last Train to Lisbon, with tears threatening at the mere thought of us breaking ties with these rich cultures to the south - not to mention, our oldest ally.
We will be back m8, Brexit is all about damage limitation. we will never fully recover from it but we will be rejoining the SM+CU and all the conditions that come with it inside 10yr but I expect it to be sooner, whether the EU allow us to rejoin is another matter, I still can't believe how our politicians think they will get away with it. even the pensioners will be screaming blue murder when price rises and inflation hits after all trade deals get ripped up. Brexit will be a election issue until we rejoin.
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Offline Zeb

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Re: Brexit thread with Lefties, Tories, bloods, wastoids, Dweebs & dickheads.....?
« Reply #13713 on: February 10, 2019, 12:28:18 am »
Sunday Times (paywall) has an interview with Starmer.

Spoiler
Quote
Sir Keir Starmer could be forgiven for feeling a little frustrated. Last week footage emerged of his leader, Jeremy Corbyn, showing what many colleagues believe are his true feelings towards the EU — describing Brussels as a “European empire of the 21st century” and a “military Frankenstein”.

The video from 2009 made the job of holding Starmer’s divided party together on Brexit no easier.

But Starmer is getting used to the discomfort. As a self-proclaimed “passionate remainer”, he has spent the past two years guiding — some in his party wish it was steering — his leader through every twist and turn of the Brexit negotiations.

So, I ask, is there a special place in hell for a remainer like him serving a Brexit-supporting leader? Starmer laughs before saying: “That’s a question which doesn’t warrant an answer.”

Last week, Donald Tusk, the president of the European Council, launched a stinging attack on the architects of Brexit, just hours before Theresa May arrived in Brussels to ask for legally binding changes to the withdrawal agreement. He tweeted: “I’ve been wondering what that special place in hell looks like, for those who promoted #Brexit, without even a sketch of a plan how to carry it out safely.”

While Starmer clearly sees the tone of the message as unhelpful, he does have some sympathy with Tusk’s position. “I have strong views on those that advocate Brexit without a plan, and there are too many of those with that view in parliament in that camp for my liking,” he told The Sunday Times in an interview in his constituency of Holborn and St Pancras in central London.

“But although I am frustrated with Brexiteers without a plan, in the end, we’ve got to find a way of getting through to the 52% and the 48%.”

With little sign of a breakthrough in the Brexit negotiations, Starmer sees his duty is to try to help find a way through the impasse. But his first mission is to stop Britain crashing out without a deal.

He believes the prime minister is “pretending to make progress while actually running the clock down” so that she can return to parliament at the end of March and offer MPs a “binary choice” — her deal or no deal.

“We can’t allow that to happen,” he added. Labour is preparing to introduce an amendment this week that will put a “hard stop” on May’s efforts to run down the clock by forcing her to put her deal before parliament again before February 26. “There needs to be a day when parliament says that’s it, enough is enough,” he said.

His intervention comes amid claims that May could delay the next meaningful vote until after the next European Council summit on March 21 — eight days before the UK is due to leave the EU.

Responding to reports from diplomats and EU officials who believe it could take until then for any agreement to be reached on the alternative arrangements May is seeking to the Irish backstop, Starmer claimed such a ruse showed a lack of respect for parliament. He was also worried about the effect of the delay on business and fears that “irreversible” decisions were now being taken.

Starmer describes May’s approach as “reckless” and “blinkered” and blames her “tunnel vision” for the devastating defeat suffered by the prime minister last month after MPs threw out her Brexit deal by a record 230 votes. But he claims rather than learn her lesson, May was allowing parliament to “tread water” because she had nothing that MPs would vote through parliament.

“It’s this blinkered approach that’s got us to where we are, with her never wanting to see where the real majority is in parliament,” Starmer said. Last week Corbyn made an offer to May in a letter setting out five demands for Labour to give its support to the government to achieve a “sensible” Brexit. These include a permanent customs union, which Corbyn argues will avoid a hard border, and close alignment with the EU single market.

“This is the only combination I genuinely believe can deliver no hard border in Northern Ireland,” said Starmer, who claimed the letter was the result of “careful thinking” and more than two years of talking to officials in Brussels. However, although the proposals received a warm reception from the EU, Corbyn faced a backlash from furious Labour MPs who suggested it was changing the party’s policy and closing the door on a second referendum.

Several, including Owen Smith and Chris Leslie, threatened to quit as speculation swirls about the formation of a new party. Starmer insisted the letter did not take a people’s vote off the table. He added: “When you go through something like Brexit, it is very important that you keep the opposition strong and united. We have to keep it together, because in the end, any chance of effective opposition goes if an opposition party starts to lose members from their team.”

But he strives to keep himself grounded. “I have a useful reminder when I get home of how important I am when my eight-year-old daughter says, ‘You’ve been in parliament today, Daddy,’ and I say ‘Yes’. She says, ‘More blah blah blah!’ ” he laughs. “So at least when I step in my front door, I know you can’t get too big for your boots.”
[close]

Looks like May and Labour are both pegging things around the date Cooper suggested as the one where Parliament had to intervene if nothing had been agreed, although probably reasonable to suggest that May is doing it to buy herself a couple more weeks and then look to find a reason to push things further into March. "Negotiations are ongoing" etc etc.

Quote
Last night Downing Street confirmed that the government would bring forward a further amendable Brexit motion by February 27 in addition to Thursday’s debate. But it stopped short of promising that this would be a meaningful vote.

Up to 40 government ministers have reportedly told No 10 that they will resign if they are banned from voting against a no-deal Brexit.

Earlier this month the government had avoided mass resignations after the whips bought off rebels by promising that there would be more opportunities to stop the UK from crashing out of the bloc without a deal.

It is understood that the ministers who have threatened to resign in order to block a disorderly Brexit have given the prime minister until the end of the month to come back to the Commons with an acceptable deal.

Pro-EU ministers believe that May is acutely aware that she will need to ask for an extension of article 50 regardless of whether a deal passes before March 29, but wants parliament to force it on her so that she cannot then be blamed.

Sunday Times (paywall)

So options continue to be May's unamended 'deal' followed by an extension to legislate for it, or to seek an extension to negotiate based on what Labour are suggesting while hoping to then secure a majority for accepting May's withdrawal agreement but amending the political declaration to what comes out from the EU explaining the single market to us again and then legislate before end of the extension. Place hopes of a referendum either as a punt of last resort or as part of an agreement for a ratification process. We've had two years to get this sorted. Heh.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2019, 12:33:29 am by Zeb »
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Re: Brexit thread with Lefties, Tories, bloods, wastoids, Dweebs & dickheads.....?
« Reply #13714 on: February 10, 2019, 12:31:07 am »
We will be back m8, Brexit is all about damage limitation. we will never fully recover from it but we will be rejoining the SM+CU and all the conditions that come with it inside 10yr but I expect it to be sooner, whether the EU allow us to rejoin is another matter, I still can't believe how our politicians think they will get away with it. even the pensioners will be screaming blue murder when price rises and inflation hits after all trade deals get ripped up. Brexit will be a election issue until we rejoin.
One of the things I find particularly annoying about the Brexiters that I talk to - and I talk to a lot of them - is that they almost all (now) accept that the country is going to be worse off for a period of time, which is also (now) accepted as being for the longer term rather than the shorter. Their reason for gladly accepting this situation is always the intangible and abstract perceived 'benefit' of 'getting back control',  which can never be adequately defined or articulated by any of them. This dawning reality has hardened their resolve. They see it as the famous bulldog spirit, and themselves as being cut from the same cloth as our heroes of yore. Now they seemingly all want the hardest of  'no deal' Brexits, with extreme prejudice, so to speak.

That they feel free to be so gung-ho with my/our futures, on what can only be described as a whim, is beyond forgiveness - it is an abuse of democracy.

In any public vote, it is normal for people to vote for what is perceived to be better for themselves or the nation in general, but on this occasion people have purposely voted for what is going to be by all practical, measurable means, a situation that will impoverish everyone with absolutely no definable benefit. They have willfully done this to us all. If they were voluntarily just doing this to themselves then good luck to them. This is borderline criminality. It's  like the modern day equivalent of Genghis Khan's hordes having, by some occult means, obtained  democratic legitimacy.
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Re: Brexit thread with Lefties, Tories, bloods, wastoids, Dweebs & dickheads.....?
« Reply #13715 on: February 10, 2019, 01:22:12 am »
One of the things I find particularly annoying about the Brexiters that I talk to - and I talk to a lot of them - is that they almost all (now) accept that the country is going to be worse off for a period of time, which is also (now) accepted as being for the longer term rather than the shorter. Their reason for gladly accepting this situation is always the intangible and abstract perceived 'benefit' of 'getting back control',  which can never be adequately defined or articulated by any of them. This dawning reality has hardened their resolve. They see it as the famous bulldog spirit, and themselves as being cut from the same cloth as our heroes of yore. Now they seemingly all want the hardest of  'no deal' Brexits, with extreme prejudice, so to speak.

That they feel free to be so gung-ho with my/our futures, on what can only be described as a whim, is beyond forgiveness - it is an abuse of democracy.

In any public vote, it is normal for people to vote for what is perceived to be better for themselves or the nation in general, but on this occasion people have purposely voted for what is going to be by all practical, measurable means, a situation that will impoverish everyone with absolutely no definable benefit. They have willfully done this to us all. If they were voluntarily just doing this to themselves then good luck to them. This is borderline criminality. It's  like the modern day equivalent of Genghis Khan's hordes having, by some occult means, obtained  democratic legitimacy.
Brexit will hit us all in different ways. if the people you speak too are pensioners living on company pensions then they are in for a nasty shock. many private pensions are linked to inflation but there is a very low ceiling, less than 4% of 2/3 rds of pension is covered.
the value of their pensions will be wiped out inside 5 yrs. we've enjoyed very low inflation for years but high inflation is a certainty after Brexit, I don't believe the bull... about opening our border to tarrif free goods, it's not going to happen for a couple of reasons.
I know some people will disagree but as we can't control this inflation then interest rates will rise to match it, millions are in for a nasty shock when mortgage payments rise.
It's very noble of leave voters to say they are willing to pay the price, lets see how they react when the fear of not being able to pay the bills becomes a daily worry. 5 yrs is enough to do the damage. this is only part of the fallout as we know, job security will also be a worry. what will our politicians be able to do to stop all this happening.? Sod all.
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Re: Brexit thread with Lefties, Tories, bloods, wastoids, Dweebs & dickheads.....?
« Reply #13716 on: February 10, 2019, 02:23:00 am »
One of the things I find particularly annoying about the Brexiters that I talk to - and I talk to a lot of them - is that they almost all (now) accept that the country is going to be worse off for a period of time, which is also (now) accepted as being for the longer term rather than the shorter. Their reason for gladly accepting this situation is always the intangible and abstract perceived 'benefit' of 'getting back control',  which can never be adequately defined or articulated by any of them. This dawning reality has hardened their resolve. They see it as the famous bulldog spirit, and themselves as being cut from the same cloth as our heroes of yore. Now they seemingly all want the hardest of  'no deal' Brexits, with extreme prejudice, so to speak.

That they feel free to be so gung-ho with my/our futures, on what can only be described as a whim, is beyond forgiveness - it is an abuse of democracy.

In any public vote, it is normal for people to vote for what is perceived to be better for themselves or the nation in general, but on this occasion people have purposely voted for what is going to be by all practical, measurable means, a situation that will impoverish everyone with absolutely no definable benefit. They have willfully done this to us all. If they were voluntarily just doing this to themselves then good luck to them. This is borderline criminality. It's  like the modern day equivalent of Genghis Khan's hordes having, by some occult means, obtained  democratic legitimacy.

Corbyn was elected Labour leader on the premise that he would move the Overton window leftwards, and his fans have trumpeted his "success" in doing so. However, the clearest example of the Overton window, with dates and landmark speeches, is the movement of Brexit to mean the hardest of all Brexits, and the denial of this as defying the will of the people.

During the campaign, virtually all Leave campaigners argued that it meant as soft as possible. On the morning of the result, Corbyn called for the immediate invocation of article 50, with the argument that the people had spoken, and that Parliament should implement the result. With this early and consistent argument made by the leader of the opposition who should have been pushing against Leave, the Overton window has moved all the way towards no deal.

Corbyn is at least as culpable as the official Leave campaigners for the hardness of this Brexit, and he is as responsible as they are for the results.
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http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=267148.msg8032258#msg8032258

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Re: Brexit thread with Lefties, Tories, bloods, wastoids, Dweebs & dickheads.....?
« Reply #13717 on: February 10, 2019, 09:19:28 am »
One of the things I find particularly annoying about the Brexiters that I talk to - and I talk to a lot of them - is that they almost all (now) accept that the country is going to be worse off for a period of time, which is also (now) accepted as being for the longer term rather than the shorter. Their reason for gladly accepting this situation is always the intangible and abstract perceived 'benefit' of 'getting back control',  which can never be adequately defined or articulated by any of them. This dawning reality has hardened their resolve. They see it as the famous bulldog spirit, and themselves as being cut from the same cloth as our heroes of yore. Now they seemingly all want the hardest of  'no deal' Brexits, with extreme prejudice, so to speak.

That they feel free to be so gung-ho with my/our futures, on what can only be described as a whim, is beyond forgiveness - it is an abuse of democracy.

In any public vote, it is normal for people to vote for what is perceived to be better for themselves or the nation in general, but on this occasion people have purposely voted for what is going to be by all practical, measurable means, a situation that will impoverish everyone with absolutely no definable benefit. They have willfully done this to us all. If they were voluntarily just doing this to themselves then good luck to them. This is borderline criminality. It's  like the modern day equivalent of Genghis Khan's hordes having, by some occult means, obtained  democratic legitimacy.


They think, the more they will suffer for being British the more British it will make them feel. Which is what they want.

I really hope reality will wake them up. In the same way as going for a cold shower and a run first thing in the morning sounds like a great idea, until you're stood wet, freezing and tired in the dark and realise you can't run for 2 minutes without feeling sick.
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Re: Brexit thread with Lefties, Tories, bloods, wastoids, Dweebs & dickheads.....?
« Reply #13718 on: February 10, 2019, 12:23:01 pm »
"Oh, they'll be rushing to do deals with us" I got from a fella in work today.  Everything I said to ask why they'd be wanting them as soon as the UK's out was just "They will, just wait and see mate".  It genuinely hurts, the level of naivety and borderline stupidity that we're entering this with.  650 elected officials, most of whom wanted to remain, and we're left with the intelligence of John and Sharon leading the way with "Well, we're British, innit.  British is best, innit."
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Re: Brexit thread with Lefties, Tories, bloods, wastoids, Dweebs & dickheads.....?
« Reply #13719 on: February 10, 2019, 12:25:08 pm »
"Oh, they'll be rushing to do deals with us" I got from a fella in work today.  Everything I said to ask why they'd be wanting them as soon as the UK's out was just "They will, just wait and see mate".  It genuinely hurts, the level of naivety and borderline stupidity that we're entering this with.  650 elected officials, most of whom wanted to remain, and we're left with the intelligence of John and Sharon leading the way with "Well, we're British, innit.  British is best, innit."

My cousin keeps posting stuff on Facebook about the shit the Tories get up to, but I can't seem to get it into his head that this vile bunch will have free reign to fuck anywhere that isn't the South East once we leave..... :butt :butt :butt :butt :butt :butt :butt :butt
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