Poll

RAWK and Brexit

No Deal!
65 (8.8%)
Mays Deal!
14 (1.9%)
No Brexit!
539 (72.8%)
Don't Know
10 (1.4%)
Don't Care
15 (2%)
I don't live in the UK
97 (13.1%)

Total Members Voted: 740

Author Topic: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"  (Read 1440511 times)

Offline Cpt_Reina

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24280 on: August 15, 2019, 02:14:33 pm »
Out of interest: if you had to choose between No Deal and preventing it with a unity government not led by Corbyn, which would you choose?

Preventing it obviously, I dgaf about Corbyn the man.

I know it suits this twitter led echo chamber to believe anyone still supporting the Labour party is some sort of Corbyn fan boy or brainwashed follower of the 'dear leader' but I really couldn't care less who is leading the Labour Party as long as they align themselves steadfastly with genuinely left policies and politics.

You can put Mighty Red in the hotseat for all I care as long as he's not some sort of centrist melt looking to cede ground to the Tories and 'come back to the centre'.

So if you replace Corbyn with someone who holds the same values, remove him for all I care.

That said, Corbyn has a mandate with his membership which voted overwhelmingly to put him in, and keep him in the job and far be it for Lib Dems or anyone else to try and undermine that.

No deal is the issue here, Corbyn leading the charge to avoid it being an issue is exactly the sort of bullshit politicking that I was led to believe the Lib Dems and centrists among us were bigger than...unless that was all bullshit?

Offline ShakaHislop

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24281 on: August 15, 2019, 02:16:40 pm »
Preventing it obviously, I dgaf about Corbyn the man.

I know it suits this twitter led echo chamber to believe anyone still supporting the Labour party is some sort of Corbyn fan boy or brainwashed follower of the 'dear leader' but I really couldn't care less who is leading the Labour Party as long as they align themselves steadfastly with genuinely left policies and politics.

You can put Mighty Red in the hotseat for all I care as long as he's not some sort of centrist melt looking to cede ground to the Tories and 'come back to the centre'.

So if you replace Corbyn with someone who holds the same values, remove him for all I care.

That said, Corbyn has a mandate with his membership which voted overwhelmingly to put him in, and keep him in the job and far be it for Lib Dems or anyone else to try and undermine that.

No deal is the issue here, Corbyn leading the charge to avoid it being an issue is exactly the sort of bullshit politicking that I was led to believe the Lib Dems and centrists among us were bigger than...unless that was all bullshit?

No mention of antisemitism from you. I'm not surprised.

Offline classycarra

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24282 on: August 15, 2019, 02:23:23 pm »
No deal is the issue here, Corbyn leading the charge to avoid it being an issue is exactly the sort of bullshit politicking that I was led to believe the Lib Dems and centrists among us were bigger than...unless that was all bullshit?
That said, Corbyn has a mandate with his membership which voted overwhelmingly to put him in, and keep him in the job and far be it for Lib Dems or anyone else to try and undermine that.

Hmm, bullshit politicking you say? After using protecting internal party politics from a man who has ignored his members and conference.

You can put Mighty Red in the hotseat for all I care as long as he's not some sort of centrist melt looking to cede ground to the Tories and 'come back to the centre'.
If you believe what you say, then there are dozens of Labour MPs you could get behind leading a 'unity' government - why the hostility to those in other parties who would prefer the chosen individual is someone with more certain anti-brexit credentials?
« Last Edit: August 15, 2019, 02:25:25 pm by Classycara »

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24283 on: August 15, 2019, 02:24:50 pm »
Quote
Jo Swinson tells me she has spoken to Ken Clarke and Harriet Harman and both have told her they are prepared to lead an emergency govt to stop No Deal and call an election. #c4news

https://twitter.com/krishgm/status/1161948869044965378

What would be wrong with Harriet Harman?

Offline Cpt_Reina

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24284 on: August 15, 2019, 02:29:14 pm »
Hmm, bullshit politicking you say?
If you believe what you say, then there are dozens of Labour MPs you could get behind leading a 'unity' government - why the hostility to those in other parties who would prefer the chosen individual is someone with more certain anti-brexit credentials?

Because this isnt about being anti-brexit is it? Its about being anti no deal.

Which Labour and Corbyn have been consistent on, so this doesnt apply.

Again if you don't want to actually be the 'grown ups in the room' you claim to want, and to prevent no deal because Corbyn hasnt been anti-brexit in its entirety then fine you do you.

But then dont attempt to frame the conversation as being that Corbyn's Labour are the reason we're heading for or indeed achieving a no deal exit.

Offline ShakaHislop

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24285 on: August 15, 2019, 02:36:08 pm »
Because this isnt about being anti-brexit is it? Its about being anti no deal.

Which Labour and Corbyn have been consistent on, so this doesnt apply.

Again if you don't want to actually be the 'grown ups in the room' you claim to want, and to prevent no deal because Corbyn hasnt been anti-brexit in its entirety then fine you do you.

But then dont attempt to frame the conversation as being that Corbyn's Labour are the reason we're heading for or indeed achieving a no deal exit.

You're in no position to make this point when your party is stubbornly refusing to back virtually anyone else other than the man who has been proven to be unpopular with a range of groups, time and time again.

Your party hasn't been able to win so much as a fucking raffle since 2010, and part of it is because you rely on claiming victimhood and blaming others for your failings. The Lib Dems supporting any non-Lib Dem to be a PM is a compromise in itself. Demanding they support the one person they've already said they can't countenance is taking the piss. What exactly is the compromise Labour is making here? Every other party involved is offering something. What is Labour?

Offline ShakaHislop

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24286 on: August 15, 2019, 02:45:07 pm »
That's presumably one more Tory rebel you now have to find to help put Corbyn into power. Good luck.

https://twitter.com/ChrisLeslieMP/status/1161890301126074368

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24287 on: August 15, 2019, 02:51:18 pm »
Because this isnt about being anti-brexit is it? Its about being anti no deal.

Which Labour and Corbyn have been consistent on, so this doesnt apply.

Consistently inconsitent. If you imagine that everyone is as trusting as you that Corbyn is even anti no deal, then you are experiencing a failure in empathy.

And why does it matter to you, you say you don't care who it is as long as they avoid no deal brexit. Surely that's the ethos you would want from your leader too?

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24288 on: August 15, 2019, 02:57:18 pm »
What about pro-Brexit Labour MPs? Are they all in the bag when it comes to a no confidence vote? It's not just Corbyn as PM they'll have to swallow but they'll know the intention of that particular VoNC is to at least delay Brexit. Will the likes of John Mann, who's a Brexiteer and a public critic of Labour's antisemitism problem abstain? What about Hoey, who doesn't have to worry about deselections and the like anymore? If her priority is Brexit, why wouldn't she vote with the government and help Johnson take us out on the 31st of October?

If any of those don't support the VoNC, again that's more Tory rebels you have to find to make up the difference.

Plus, there's the likes of Ian Austin and Kelvin Hopkins (still suspended, I believe) who are ex-Labour pro-Brexit independents.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2019, 03:01:46 pm by ShakaHislop »

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24289 on: August 15, 2019, 03:01:37 pm »
And you're willing to ignore how awful Corbyn is, and absolve the waste of space that is the rest of the Labour PLP of all blame. Good luck taking the moral high ground.
No, I'm not. I've voted against him twice as leader and voted Lib Dem in the Euros. I've said before in discussion with you, I don't really see how the bulk of the PLP can go into a general election with Corbyn as leader, and I think that still holds. But being PM for a week with no ability to pass anything other than points relating to No Deal - pre-agreed with Tory rebels, PC, SNP, LD, Greens and various flavours of Labour MPs - isn't 'power'.

Yes, I'd prefer on balance a GNU led by a senior backbencher of any party than Corbyn - not least because I think a number of Tory MPs and others will ultimately come to the decision you have, and reject a Corbyn led GNU. But if they do, and the whole thing falls apart, they're just accepting a bit of the ample quantities of blame to go round.
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Offline Cpt_Reina

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24290 on: August 15, 2019, 03:02:41 pm »
Consistently inconsitent. If you imagine that everyone is as trusting as you that Corbyn is even anti no deal, then you are experiencing a failure in empathy.

And why does it matter to you, you say you don't care who it is as long as they avoid no deal brexit. Surely that's the ethos you would want from your leader too?

Ok fine, so after what 3 years of accusing Labour of brinkmanship playing politics and criticising Corbyn for not being pragmatic about Brexit, you're now happy for the Lib Dems to engage in a massive game of brinkmanship to remove the current leader of the opposition rather than to be pragmatic and prevent no deal in order for them to get someone they're more 'comfortable' working with?

Talk about consistently inconsistent.

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24291 on: August 15, 2019, 03:05:44 pm »
What about pro-Brexit Labour MPs? Are they all in the bag when it comes to a no confidence vote? It's not just Corbyn as PM they'll have to swallow but they'll know the intention of that particular VoNC is to at least delay Brexit. Will the likes of John Mann, who's a Brexiteer and a public critic of Labour's antisemitism problem abstain? What about Hoey, who doesn't have to worry about deselections and the like anymore? If her priority is Brexit, why wouldn't she vote with the government and help Johnson take us out on the 31st of October?

If any of those don't support the VoNC, again that's more Tory rebels you have to find to make up the difference.

Plus, there's the likes of Ian Austin and Kelvin Hopkins (still suspended, I believe) who are ex-Labour pro-Brexit independents.
Yeah, Hoey and upto about 8 others, I believe, will probably vote with Johnson. The bigger worry would be Kinnock's '30-50' who are dead set against a referendum. And if it's no clear, yes I agree - all numbers would be easier if Corbyn wasn't the prospective PM.
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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24292 on: August 15, 2019, 03:07:47 pm »
That's presumably one more Tory rebel you now have to find to help put Corbyn into power. Good luck.

https://twitter.com/ChrisLeslieMP/status/1161890301126074368
It's a stupid tweet and you know it is. There would be no hard left government in power, even if Corbyn was Lenin himself. They wouldn't be 'in power' to do anything but stop No Deal. There's no 'hard left' majority. What is it you think a PM can really do on his own without a Commons majority?
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Offline Trada

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24293 on: August 15, 2019, 03:09:19 pm »
Makes me wonder if the reason Swinson is having problems is because of the ChangeUK people like Chucka that have joined, and they won't vote with Jeremy and seeing they now have built themselves out as the anti Brexit party it would look bad if there is a split in their voting to stop a no deal Brexit with Jeremy as temp leader.

That's a problem they have to sort out not Labour.
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Offline ShakaHislop

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24294 on: August 15, 2019, 03:11:05 pm »
Makes me wonder if the reason Swinson is having problems is because of the ChangeUK people like Chucka that have joined, and they won't vote with Jeremy and seeing they now have built themselves out as the anti Brexit party it would look bad if there is a split in their voting to stop a no deal Brexit with Jeremy as temp leader.

That's a problem they have to sort out not Labour.

It's primarily because Corbyn is a twat, and a problem that the Labour Party has given to the country.

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24295 on: August 15, 2019, 03:13:52 pm »
Makes me wonder if the reason Swinson is having problems is because of the ChangeUK people like Chucka that have joined, and they won't vote with Jeremy and seeing they now have built themselves out as the anti Brexit party it would look bad if there is a split in their voting to stop a no deal Brexit with Jeremy as temp leader.

That's a problem they have to sort out not Labour.
There's no complexity to it. Lib Dems want to avoid accusations of 'you put Corbyn into Number 10' on the doorstep. They also want to take some credit for being seen as the 'honest brokers' of a GNU led by somebody inoffensive and with cross party support - because their route to any sort of influence in a new parliament is in working with other parties. Similarly for Lucas, until she made a clumsy suggestion.

But those are party political motivations. No better or worse than Labour (as the official opposition) wanting to be seen as the only party that actually has the numbers to oppose a Tory Brexit, and therefore needs to be seen to be leading it.
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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24296 on: August 15, 2019, 03:15:46 pm »
It's primarily because Corbyn is a twat, and a problem that the Labour Party has given to the country.

Hmmm and people wonder why I don't respond to replies ............ The usual it's all Jeremys fault bullshit.
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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24297 on: August 15, 2019, 03:17:48 pm »
There's no complexity to it. Lib Dems want to avoid accusations of 'you put Corbyn into Number 10' on the doorstep. They also want to take some credit for being seen as the 'honest brokers' of a GNU led by somebody inoffensive and with cross party support - because their route to any sort of influence in a new parliament is in working with other parties. Similarly for Lucas, until she made a clumsy suggestion.

But those are party political motivations. No better or worse than Labour (as the official opposition) wanting to be seen as the only party that actually has the numbers to oppose a Tory Brexit, and therefore needs to be seen to be leading it.

It's not just that we want to avoid accusations of that; we genuinely don't want to do it and with very good reason.

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24298 on: August 15, 2019, 03:22:14 pm »
Agree with redmark on much of the practical implications of Corbyn being in power for a couple of months. In those terms, and there is definitely another case to be made for not even considering him for PM, more damaging is "Vote Lib Dem get Corbyn" and "Vote SNP get Corbyn" and "Vote PC get Corbyn" in the following election. Corbyn's asking parties to throw away gains in the next election to put him there just to obtain a stay of execution on 'no deal' when the next government in can just repeat this whole thing. Which may be to Corbyn's favour in re-polarising between Tories and Labour but didn't put him in power last time either.

----

This still seems the best route. If a majority can be found. If it can get through Parliament in time even with a majority in the Commons.

Quote
That leads on to a third possibility: namely, a hybrid of the first two. Such legislation might require, in the first instance, the Prime Minister to seek an extension. However, it might go on to provide that if no extension had been granted by a given date (e.g. 30 October), the Prime Minister would be legally obliged immediately to revoke the UK’s notification under Article 50. This sort of approach, with extension as the preferred option and revocation as a last-resort failsafe, would presumably be politically less unpalatable to some MPs than legislation that required revocation without more.

Sauce
« Last Edit: August 15, 2019, 03:30:38 pm by Zeb »
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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24299 on: August 15, 2019, 03:29:50 pm »
Hmmm and people wonder why I don't respond to replies ............ The usual it's all Jeremys fault bullshit.

You don't respond to replies because unlike places like Twitter, you're not used to people challenging the shite you regurgitate from "sources" like Sqwawkbox and ToryFibs. You'd get even more stick if people didn't have sympathy for you for personal problems that are vaguely alluded to.

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24300 on: August 15, 2019, 03:41:44 pm »
This thread is really threatening to jump the shark
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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24301 on: August 15, 2019, 03:45:46 pm »
Hmmm and people wonder why I don't respond to replies ............ The usual it's all Jeremys fault bullshit.

Care to answer what would be wrong with Harman as the leader of a temporary government? Her merely not being Labour leader/leader of the opposition is not an acceptable answer.

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24302 on: August 15, 2019, 03:50:18 pm »
If you give it a few days I think you will clearly see the LibDem position morphing into reluctant support if he can make the numbers work, then asking that if he can't make the numbers work he should show the same flexibility in backing another candidate who can.

It helps that it is both true and the least damaging to them, as it gets in line with the Greens in putting more pressure on Corbyn to compromise if there isn't a majority for him to lead.

I actually think it is perfectly fair for Labour to get first dibs at forming a GNU, given the number of seats they have, just not convinced they can do it.

With the right leadership and full Labour support there is a majority for an anti no-deal GNU, I'm just not sure there is for anything beyond that.

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24303 on: August 15, 2019, 03:56:38 pm »
If you give it a few days I think you will clearly see the LibDem position morphing into reluctant support if he can make the numbers work, then asking that if he can't make the numbers work he should show the same flexibility in backing another candidate who can.

It helps that it is both true and the least damaging to them, as it gets in line with the Greens in putting more pressure on Corbyn to compromise if there isn't a majority for him to lead.

I actually think it is perfectly fair for Labour to get first dibs at forming a GNU, given the number of seats they have, just not convinced they can do it.

With the right leadership and full Labour support there is a majority for an anti no-deal GNU, I'm just not sure there is for anything beyond that.

Even when Corbyn doesn't even have the confidence of most of those MPs who hold those seats?

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24304 on: August 15, 2019, 04:04:05 pm »
Even when Corbyn doesn't even have the confidence of most of those MPs who hold those seats?

He is still the leader of the party though.

I just wouldnt be wasting too many of the 14 days pursuing that approach if it became apparent that the numbers weren't there

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24305 on: August 15, 2019, 04:11:47 pm »
Even when Corbyn doesn't even have the confidence of most of those MPs who hold those seats?
Labour has many more seats, is the official opposition, and he is the leader of the opposition. You may regret the former, and we may both regret the latter (though I'm not sure you do; whatever would you complain about then?), but those are the facts. Even discounting the PLP's lack of support for Corbyn, he still has more genuine supporters in the house than Swinson has MPs.

This shouldn't really be terribly complicated, but the timing has worked out beautifully for Johnson. Can Corbyn command a majority in the house? No? Anyone else? But with a recess and no action, the opposition are busy talking themselves into hardened, conflicting positions that will be difficult to step back from.
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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24306 on: August 15, 2019, 04:18:42 pm »
Alex Wickham
‏Verified account @alexwickham

LibDem troubles...

Layla Moran not treading on Swinson’s toes today but told she is privately “much more on board” with a potential anti-no deal alliance with Corbyn and others

Allies say she is less tribal than Swinson and would deal with anyone opposing no deal...

https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1162000845656993793

Good to see that there are some Lib Dems who have their priorities in order...
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Offline classycarra

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24307 on: August 15, 2019, 04:19:08 pm »
Ok fine, so after what 3 years of accusing Labour of brinkmanship playing politics and criticising Corbyn for not being pragmatic about Brexit, you're now happy for the Lib Dems to engage in a massive game of brinkmanship to remove the current leader of the opposition rather than to be pragmatic and prevent no deal in order for them to get someone they're more 'comfortable' working with?

Talk about consistently inconsistent.

Any time you try to get hypothetical you massively veer off base. You really struggle with it :D

You ignored the part of my message where I asked why you don't want a leader who shares your values. What's so wrong, from your perspective, with your party choosing someone more clearly and consistently anti no deal brexit to 'do a job' for the country (and rehabilitate Labour's image at the same time)? It's not about 'comfort' - and that's an irony from a current supporter of the labour leadership. It's about 'can we trust this person to do what he has promised'. I don't follow the Lib Dems but my guess is, as numerous people have said to you, they'd fall in line if it came down to it.

By the way the brinkmanship hasn't started yet, because Corbyn hasn't requested a vote of no confidence. Hopefully that changes first day back, but healthy scepticism going on his previous is understandable I'm sure

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24308 on: August 15, 2019, 04:19:32 pm »
Labour has many more seats, is the official opposition, and he is the leader of the opposition. You may regret the former, and we may both regret the latter (though I'm not sure you do; whatever would you complain about then?), but those are the facts. Even discounting the PLP's lack of support for Corbyn, he still has more genuine supporters in the house than Swinson has MPs.

This shouldn't really be terribly complicated, but the timing has worked out beautifully for Johnson. Can Corbyn command a majority in the house? No? Anyone else? But with a recess and no action, the opposition are busy talking themselves into hardened, conflicting positions that will be difficult to step back from.

Is that the best you've got?

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24309 on: August 15, 2019, 04:21:11 pm »
Alex Wickham
‏Verified account @alexwickham

LibDem troubles...

Layla Moran not treading on Swinson’s toes today but told she is privately “much more on board” with a potential anti-no deal alliance with Corbyn and others

Allies say she is less tribal than Swinson and would deal with anyone opposing no deal...

https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1162000845656993793

Good to see that there are some Lib Dems who have their priorities in order...

It's the Labour party's tribalness that is causing this problem.

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24310 on: August 15, 2019, 04:26:16 pm »
Is that the best you've got?
I knew that bit would cause you to ignore the rest of the points. A pity, but confirms how you want to debate this.
It's the Labour party's tribalness that is causing this problem.
Labour is the opposition. It is seeking to form an alternative government. I'll absolutely argue for it to support a neutral candidate if that becomes necessary, but the Lib Dems are playing party politics here, too.
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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24311 on: August 15, 2019, 04:26:50 pm »
If you give it a few days I think you will clearly see the LibDem position morphing into reluctant support if he can make the numbers work, then asking that if he can't make the numbers work he should show the same flexibility in backing another candidate who can.

It helps that it is both true and the least damaging to them, as it gets in line with the Greens in putting more pressure on Corbyn to compromise if there isn't a majority for him to lead.

I actually think it is perfectly fair for Labour to get first dibs at forming a GNU, given the number of seats they have, just not convinced they can do it.

With the right leadership and full Labour support there is a majority for an anti no-deal GNU, I'm just not sure there is for anything beyond that.
Good post. Thread saved

As we've said before it's not really meaningful that a GoNU could not do much beyond preventing No Deal, because it's second task after avoiding the cliff edge will be to call a GE and dissolve itself.

It'll be more like a Select Committee, convened to undertake a couple of set tasks - than it will be a multifunctioning government.

Whether Corbyn is trustworthy or not is also irrelevant, as he will be heavily constrained in what he can do, with much of his remit pre-agreed before the GoNU is formed.

If the Lib Dems, or any other party, are indisposed by this and feel their supporters will mewl about it then tough; they'll just have to roll their sleeves up and explain to their support why they had to do what they did to save the nation. This is too critical a juncture to expect everything your own way and whether we like it or not Corbyn as the head of the Opposition and the second largest party, has clout and a certain primacy when the roles and positions are being allocated.

Whether you or I think he's a knob is neither here nor there

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24312 on: August 15, 2019, 04:27:03 pm »
If you give it a few days I think you will clearly see the LibDem position morphing into reluctant support if he can make the numbers work, then asking that if he can't make the numbers work he should show the same flexibility in backing another candidate who can.

It helps that it is both true and the least damaging to them, as it gets in line with the Greens in putting more pressure on Corbyn to compromise if there isn't a majority for him to lead.

I actually think it is perfectly fair for Labour to get first dibs at forming a GNU, given the number of seats they have, just not convinced they can do it.

With the right leadership and full Labour support there is a majority for an anti no-deal GNU, I'm just not sure there is for anything beyond that.
What happens when Corbyn has a tizzy and fucks off with the ball after being rejected as captain? I sincerely hope I am wrong, but 1) Corbyn is highly unlikely to agree to strict criteria about what is expected from as PM; and 2) if he is indeed rejected, he will three-line whip his PMs into not supporting any other candidate as PM. I expect no more from Corbyn than I do from Johnson. I genuinely do not know what is best in this situation.
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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24313 on: August 15, 2019, 04:27:05 pm »
It's the Labour party's tribalness that is causing this problem.

You've made it pretty clear that you'd rather we exit the EU with no deal than see Corbyn become Prime Minister. That's fine, you're entitled to that view, but you can't then go pointing fingers when no deal happens. The Lib Dems are playing politics as well and will be just as much to blame as Corbyn's Labour if neither side is willing to budge and therefore the theoretical anti-no deal majority let Johnson get away with it.
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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24314 on: August 15, 2019, 04:29:11 pm »
Any time you try to get hypothetical you massively veer off base. You really struggle with it :D

You ignored the part of my message where I asked why you don't want a leader who shares your values. What's so wrong, from your perspective, with your party choosing someone more clearly and consistently anti no deal brexit to 'do a job' for the country (and rehabilitate Labour's image at the same time)? It's not about 'comfort' - and that's an irony from a current supporter of the labour leadership. It's about 'can we trust this person to do what he has promised'. I don't follow the Lib Dems but my guess is, as numerous people have said to you, they'd fall in line if it came down to it.

By the way the brinkmanship hasn't started yet, because Corbyn hasn't requested a vote of no confidence. Hopefully that changes first day back, but healthy scepticism going on his previous is understandable I'm sure

Corbyn is anti no deal though, so I fail to see what you're getting at. At no point has Corbyn or Labour endorsed a no deal exit.

The 'job' needing to be done is one that he's been consistently willing to do.
As such the point you're attempting to make is moot.

You're trying to muddy the waters by dragging the conversation to being anti-brexit because it suits an anti Corbyn viewpoint, but that's not what this is, it has no baring on this issue.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2019, 04:32:53 pm by Cpt_Reina »

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24315 on: August 15, 2019, 04:29:21 pm »
What happens when Corbyn has a tizzy and fucks off with the ball after being rejected as captain? I sincerely hope I am wrong, but 1) Corbyn is highly unlikely to agree to strict criteria about what is expected from as PM; and 2) if he is indeed rejected, he will three-line whip his PMs into not supporting any other candidate as PM. I expect no more from Corbyn than I do from Johnson. I genuinely do not know what is best in this situation.
I'd expect there to be a large rebellion against such a whip, though probably not large enough. Very likely the final straw for the formal split of the party, though.
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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24316 on: August 15, 2019, 04:34:39 pm »
I knew that bit would cause you to ignore the rest of the points. A pity, but confirms how you want to debate this. Labour is the opposition. It is seeking to form an alternative government. I'll absolutely argue for it to support a neutral candidate if that becomes necessary, but the Lib Dems are playing party politics here, too.

You took a cheap dig and yet you're being condescending about how other "debate this"?

I didn't ignore your other points. I just didn't feel the need to respond because it generally covered the same ground as your previous ones. You think the Lib Dems and Labour are equally at fault here. I disagree and I think Swinson has adopted the correct stance. You don't.

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24317 on: August 15, 2019, 04:35:23 pm »
Corbyn is anti no deal though, so I fail to see what you're getting at. At no point has Corbyn or Labour endorsed a no deal exit.

The 'job' needing to be done is one that he's been consistently willing to do.
As such the point you're attempting to make is moot.

You're trying to muddy the waters by dragging the conversation to being anti-brexit because it suits an anti Corbyn viewpoint, but that's not what this is, it has no baring on this issue this.
I can't pretend to know precisely what Corbyn thinks, but it's not news to point out that many people think he'd be reasonably happy with No Deal - and arguably, Labour's policy has contributed to the current situation where No Deal looks increasingly possible. Senior Labour figures acknowledged months ago that they didn't really have a problem with the Withdrawal Agreement; their issue was with the Political Declaration. Fundamentally Labour's policy has been about seeking a political outcome as damaging as possible for the Tory party, with some significant risks to that policy.

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24318 on: August 15, 2019, 04:36:22 pm »
You took a cheap dig and yet you're being condescending about how other "debate this"?

I didn't ignore your other points. I just didn't feel the need to respond because it generally covered the same ground as your previous ones. You think the Lib Dems and Labour are equally at fault here. I disagree and I think Swinson has adopted the correct stance. You don't.


Cheap dig?

Does the antisemitism row just go away then? Are you all guilty of putting stopping a no deal Brexit over Jews?


That's a cheap dig.
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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24319 on: August 15, 2019, 04:38:00 pm »
What happens when Corbyn has a tizzy and fucks off with the ball after being rejected as captain? I sincerely hope I am wrong, but 1) Corbyn is highly unlikely to agree to strict criteria about what is expected from as PM; and 2) if he is indeed rejected, he will three-line whip his PMs into not supporting any other candidate as PM. I expect no more from Corbyn than I do from Johnson. I genuinely do not know what is best in this situation.

On the first point Corbyn  has at least already partially boxed himself in I think, I don't think he could realistically aim to do anything else with his brief time as PM.

If the leadership had half a brain it wouldn't try any funny business anyway, the win for them is just getting Corbyn in as PM. I don't think it is likely to be happen but if it does it is a big win for Corbyn, he eases his problems with the Remain vote, and he looks more statesmanlike just by being PM and not acting like a dick, it probbly makes the idea of Corbyn being PM a bit less scary to some of the voters who currently aren't exactly warming to him.

On the second point (Labour refusing to back any other candidate), as far as the Remain voting public is concerned, Labour bears some of the responsibility for what happens afterwards

From a purely tactical point of view I think it is difficult for the LibDems to demand flexiblity from Corbyn if it can be portrayed they haven't shown any flexibility themselves.