Topic: UEFA Champions League. Klopp's got a semi

[Nessy76]

At some point last season, somewhere here on RAWK, amid all the excitement of the Champions League Final, there was a discussion about which pot we would get in next season's competition. Had we won, we would have been in Pot One.

So what's the situation now? As there's no proper football on for a few weeks, I thought I'd have a look.

Well, first of all, under the current rules, the Champions of Europe and Europa Cup Winners are joined in Pot One by the winners of the remaining top Six ranked leagues.

So pot one will be:
1. Real Madrid (CL Winners)
2. Atletico Madrid (Europa Winners)
3. Bayern Munich (German Champions)
4. Barcelona (Spanish Champions)
5. Juventus (Italian Champions)
6. PSG (French Champignons)
7. Manchester City (English Champions)
8. Lokomotiv Moscow (Russian Champions)

After that, it's based on club coefficients.
https://www.uefa.com/memberassociations/uefarankings/club/index.html

Liverpool are currently ranked 22, which does not bode well for our chances of a Pot 2 spot. Roma are ranked 21.

Confirmed Pot 2 clubs:

1. Dortmund
2. Porto
3. Manchester United
4. Shaktar
5. Napoli
6. Spurs
(Roma)

We need seven clubs above us in the ranking to miss out to get into Pot 2.

Seville (6) finished 7th in Spain.
Arsenal (9) finished 6th in the Premier League.
Chelsea (13) finished 5th in the Premier League.
Zenit (15) finished 6th in Russia.
Leverkusen (20) finished 5th in Germany.

The remaining clubs who are above us in the coefficients, and playing in the qualifiers are:

Basel - (18) who will enter at the 2nd Qualifying Round, where they will play PAOK (draw was yesterday, the sneaked that one out!)
Benfica (15) - who will enter at the 3rd Qualifying Round, where they are seeded in the League Path.

We need both to go out before the Group Stage to get us into Pot 2. There is a chance they could play one another at the Play Off stage, which would obviously be bad.
EDIT: They won't be drawn against one another in the play off round as both would be seeded.

So chances are it's Pot 3 for us. Obviously we have a score to settle with Real, and I'd take Porto from Pot 2.

[deFacto please, you bastards]

Lokomotiw Moscow,Porto/Dortmund is what I'd be happy with.

I think we end up with Atleti and Napoli

[Nessy76]

Lokomotiw Moscow,Porto/Dortmund is what I'd be happy with.

I think we end up with Atleti and Napoli

Don't want to be going to Russia in the winter, that's what nobbled Napoleon.

[deFacto please, you bastards]

Don't want to be going to Russia in the winter, that's what nobbled Napoleon.

I'd rather deal with that than anyone else in that pot 1.

[So… Howard Philips]

Don't want to be going to Russia in the winter, that's what nobbled Napoleon.

And Hitler.

[meady1981]

Anyone know any good hotels in Madrid

[Mr_Shane]

If we get Real Madrid again, this time I reckon we can beat them. I am not afraid of anyone in Pot 1 or even Pot 2. We have upgraded our midfield

[meady1981]

I’m talking the final baby

[riismeister]

https://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/news/newsid=2560094.html

"Clubs' coefficients are now determined EITHER by the sum of all points won in the previous five years, OR by the association coefficient over the same period – WHICHEVER IS THE HIGHER (under a new system introduced for 2018/19 onwards)."

This will shake things up a bit.

[riismeister]

https://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/news/newsid=2560094.html

"Clubs' coefficients are now determined EITHER by the sum of all points won in the previous five years, OR by the association coefficient over the same period – WHICHEVER IS THE HIGHER (under a new system introduced for 2018/19 onwards)."

This will shake things up a bit.

Going by the info in the quoted post it looks to me like we're guaranteed a Pot 2 spot.

We're currently tied with Tottenham for the 6th/7th spots in Pot 2 and the only currently not qualifed team that may qualify that also have either a higher Club coefficient or a higher Association coefficient than our own Association coefficient is Benifica (@80.000). If Benifica qualify, Tottenham and ourselves would go from having the two second to last spots in Pot 2 (ahead of Napoli) to having the two last spots in Pot 2 (still ahead of Napoli but behind Benifica).

[Jinxsy]

https://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/news/newsid=2560094.html

"Clubs' coefficients are now determined EITHER by the sum of all points won in the previous five years, OR by the association coefficient over the same period – WHICHEVER IS THE HIGHER (under a new system introduced for 2018/19 onwards)."

This will shake things up a bit.

*refreshes screen, expecting Riis to post a beautifully formatted table of each of the pots with clear expression of his working calcs*

[Djozer]

Going by the info in the quoted post it looks to me like we're guaranteed a Pot 2 spot.

We're currently tied with Tottenham for the 6th/7th spots in Pot 2 and the only currently not qualifed team that may qualify that also have either a higher Club coefficient or a higher Association coefficient than our own Association coefficient is Benifica (@80.000). If Benifica qualify, Tottenham and ourselves would go from having the two second to last spots in Pot 2 (ahead of Napoli) to having the two last spots in Pot 2 (still ahead of Napoli but behind Benifica).

That would be great, if that's the case. Hadn't heard about us effectively being able to swap our (relatively low) club coefficient for the higher association coefficient and had almost resigned myself to our being in pot 3. If this is how it all shakes out then that's a lot better, as being in pot 2 means we are likely to get a significantly easier group stage  draw.

[riismeister]

beautifully formatted table

[TheShanklyGates]

Going by the info in the quoted post it looks to me like we're guaranteed a Pot 2 spot.

We're currently tied with Tottenham for the 6th/7th spots in Pot 2 and the only currently not qualifed team that may qualify that also have either a higher Club coefficient or a higher Association coefficient than our own Association coefficient is Benifica (@80.000). If Benifica qualify, Tottenham and ourselves would go from having the two second to last spots in Pot 2 (ahead of Napoli) to having the two last spots in Pot 2 (still ahead of Napoli but behind Benifica).

Don't think that's correct mate - I'm not sure where you're getting those association coefficient numbers from? From the list at https://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/news/newsid=2560094.html it would appear that it doesn't affect us, whose coefficient of 62.000 is much higher than England's 15.921, but does affect Hoffenheim whose individual coefficient score of 4.000 is lower than Germany's of 14.285.

https://kassiesa.home.xs4all.nl/bert/uefa/data/method5/trank2018.html

You can see the association coefficients here.

[Djozer]

Don't think that's correct mate - I'm not sure where you're getting those association coefficient numbers from? From the list at https://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/news/newsid=2560094.html it would appear that it doesn't affect us, whose coefficient of 62.000 is much higher than England's 15.921, but does affect Hoffenheim whose individual coefficient score of 4.000 is lower than Germany's of 14.285.

https://kassiesa.home.xs4all.nl/bert/uefa/data/method5/trank2018.html

You can see the association coefficients here.

I think the number 15.921 is the current association coefficient over a 5 year period divided by 5 (79.605/5=15.921)?

"Clubs' coefficients are now determined EITHER by the sum of all points won in the previous five years, OR by the association coefficient over the same period – WHICHEVER IS THE HIGHER (under a new system introduced for 2018/19 onwards)."

So, hopefully, they are referring to the 79.605 figure, as I think that would be "the association coefficient over the same [5 year] period" as opposed to 15.921, as the former would guarantee us Pot 2 status, whereas the latter would likely have us in Pot 3.

Here's a list of the association coefficients.

http://www.uefa.com/memberassociations/uefarankings/country/index.html

[TheShanklyGates]

I think the number 15.921 is the current association coefficient over a 5 year period divided by 5 (79.605/5=15.921)?

"Clubs' coefficients are now determined EITHER by the sum of all points won in the previous five years, OR by the association coefficient over the same period – WHICHEVER IS THE HIGHER (under a new system introduced for 2018/19 onwards)."

So, hopefully, they are referring to the 79.605 figure, as I think that would be "the association coefficient over the same [5 year] period" as opposed to 15.921, as the former would guarantee us Pot 2 status, whereas the latter would likely have us in Pot 3.

Here's a list of the association coefficients.

http://www.uefa.com/memberassociations/uefarankings/country/index.html

Don't think that reading of it is correct given Hoffenheim are listed as having a coefficient of 14.285 rather than 71.425. I could be wrong but I don't think so given the way they've listed it.

[Djozer]

Don't think that reading of it is correct given Hoffenheim are listed as having a coefficient of 14.285 rather than 71.425. I could be wrong but I don't think so given the way they've listed it.

See what you mean. They've worded it a bit ambiguously but yeah, if Hoffenheim are listed as 14.285 then it suggests they just take a one year average as opposed to the sum total over 5 years. Bollocks. Pot 3 it probably is then.

Oh well, at least I had half an hour of thinking we'd get an easier draw. Not the end of the world by any means as I think we'd have a decent chance against almost any team, but it certainly can make a difference.

Thanks for pissing on my happiness chips, mate 

[TheShanklyGates]

See what you mean. They've worded it a bit ambiguously but yeah, if Hoffenheim are listed as 14.285 then it suggests they just take a one year average as opposed to the sum total over 5 years. Bollocks. Pot 3 it probably is then.

Oh well, at least I had half an hour of thinking we'd get an easier draw. Not the end of the world by any means as I think we'd have a decent chance against almost any team, but it certainly can make a difference.

Thanks for pissing on my happiness chips, mate 

Glad to be of service

We did alright from Pot 3 this year mind...

[riismeister]

Don't think that reading of it is correct given Hoffenheim are listed as having a coefficient of 14.285 rather than 71.425. I could be wrong but I don't think so given the way they've listed it.

Dividing it by 5 does make sense with the 14.285 number for Hoffenheim, but I don't think it makes sense with wording of the rule describing how the new calculations work. I guess we'll see what it means by September.

[Djozer]

Dividing it by 5 does make sense with the 14.285 number for Hoffenheim, but I don't think it makes sense with wording of the rule describing how the new calculations work. I guess we'll see what it means by September.

That's the thing - the way it's worded suggests it might be a five year total, but then giving Hoffenheim that score would indicate that it's not. Awkward UEFA bastards. I guess we'll see, but I'm leaning towards it just being the one year average, purely because they've gone on to list Hoffenheim as having 14.285.

Glad to be of service

We did alright from Pot 3 this year mind...

Indeed we did. Shouldn't forget that we were about as fortunate as we could be with the group stage draw, though. Hopefully lightning strikes twice. Even if we get two heavyweights I'd fancy our chances but I think, on balance, I'd prefer the easiest group possible.

[LallanaInPyjamas]

There's no one to fear in Pot 2 anyway so even if we land one of the Pot 1 heavyweights there's no reason we can't progress.

Look at Spurs last season - everyone wrote them off and they won the group, even lifting the Beat Real Madrid trophy along the way!

[Bobinhood]

Isnt there a new  "Former champions in particular ones with huge fan bases with which we can mint money primarily Liverpool for example" rule that nobody understands because its blatter-like in its opaqueness, under which they can fudge the bollocks and give us as many points as required to make pot 2? 

[Djozer]

There's no one to fear in Pot 2 anyway so even if we land one of the Pot 1 heavyweights there's no reason we can't progress.

Look at Spurs last season - everyone wrote them off and they won the group, even lifting the Beat Real Madrid trophy along the way!

Forgot that we can't get someone from the same league so yeah, in theory whether we're in pot 2 or 3 shouldn't make that much of a difference to the standard of teams we get, although I'd probably rather not face Napoli, Dortmund, and possibly Shaktar and Roma which we'd have a chance of doing should we be in pot 3. I'm sure we can beat anyone, I'd just prefer we get the easiest draw possible so we can just sail serenely on through and have a couple of dead rubber games at the end to play the kids as opposed to having to go full strength throughout with the knockon effect of having our first teamers getting fatigued for the league games after. Chances are we'll get a pretty big team out of Pot 1 anyway, unless we fluke Lokomotiv.

[deFacto please, you bastards]

Forgot that we can't get someone from the same league so yeah, in theory whether we're in pot 2 or 3 shouldn't make that much of a difference to the standard of teams we get, although I'd probably rather not face Napoli, Dortmund, and possibly Shaktar and Roma which we'd have a chance of doing should we be in pot 3. I'm sure we can beat anyone, I'd just prefer we get the easiest draw possible so we can just sail serenely on through and have a couple of dead rubber games at the end to play the kids as opposed to having to go full strength throughout with the knockon effect of having our first teamers getting fatigued for the league games after. Chances are we'll get a pretty big team out of Pot 2 anyway, unless we fluke Lokomotiv.

Dortmund are no better than Napoli or Roma, they're about Shaktar's level if not lower.

[Djozer]

Dortmund are no better than Napoli or Roma, they're about Shaktar's level if not lower.

On last year's evidence maybe, but I reckon they're better than what they showed and think Favre should be a pretty good appointment for them. We're definitely a better team, but if it all comes together for them then they should be a better side than last season and are unlikely to be pushovers. Quite intrigued to see how Favre does with them, actually.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

We are ''heavyweights'' & after Barca,RM & possibly City every other side in the draw will be wanting to dodge us.

[Nessy76]

Isnt there a new  "Former champions in particular ones with huge fan bases with which we can mint money primarily Liverpool for example" rule that nobody understands because its blatter-like in its opaqueness, under which they can fudge the bollocks and give us as many points as required to make pot 2?

They did suggest that, but I had a look a few months ago, far as I could see, it is only referred to in terms of how the cash will be distributed, not for seeding purposes.

[Nessy76]

And Hitler.

Don't mention the war!

[deFacto please, you bastards]

On last year's evidence maybe, but I reckon they're better than what they showed and think Favre should be a pretty good appointment for them. We're definitely a better team, but if it all comes together for them then they should be a better side than last season and are unlikely to be pushovers. Quite intrigued to see how Favre does with them, actually.

It's not just last year it's the last two seasons. They aren't as a threat or as good as the other sides I mentioned. What may or may not happened with them and their new coach, remains to be seen, but they are a mere shadow of what they were 3 years ago

[Nessy76]

See what you mean. They've worded it a bit ambiguously but yeah, if Hoffenheim are listed as 14.285 then it suggests they just take a one year average as opposed to the sum total over 5 years. Bollocks. Pot 3 it probably is then.

Oh well, at least I had half an hour of thinking we'd get an easier draw. Not the end of the world by any means as I think we'd have a decent chance against almost any team, but it certainly can make a difference.

Thanks for pissing on my happiness chips, mate 

Yeah, pretty sure it is the lower figure. The idea is to give teams new to the competition a boost by ranking them alongside their own league. Otherwise pot 2 would be nothing but English/Spanish/German clubs.

[LallanaInPyjamas]

It's not just last year it's the last two seasons. They aren't as a threat or as good as the other sides I mentioned. What may or may not happened with them and their new coach, remains to be seen, but they are a mere shadow of what they were 3 years ago

I agree. Couldn't even beat APOEL last year. Bayern aside, Bundesliga has zero teams to fear in any way next season.

Inter could be a very tricky Pot 4 side with the signings they're making.

[LallanaInPyjamas]

So pot one will be:
1. Real Madrid (CL Winners)
2. Atletico Madrid (Europa Winners)
3. Bayern Munich (German Champions)
4. Barcelona (Spanish Champions)
5. Juventus (Italian Champions)
6. PSG (French Champignons)
7. Manchester City (English Champions)
8. Lokomotiv Moscow (Russian Champions)

Quick one Nessy - I don't recall this being the case in the past. United weren't Pot One last season IIRC. Has this changed?

EDIT: The power of Google is amazing. I can indeed see that it has. Seems a strange one, that.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

Quick one Nessy - I don't recall this being the case in the past. United weren't Pot One last season IIRC. Has this changed?

EDIT: The power of Google is amazing. I can indeed see that it has. Seems a strange one, that.

would say it’s fair for the Europa winner as they are a champion

[LallanaInPyjamas]

would say it’s fair for the Europa winner as they are a champion

Of a different competition    I'd prefer a title winner of a lesser nation to be rewarded personally.

[LallanaInPyjamas]

On a side-note it's crazy how far the Dutch league has fallen over the years... seems surreal to see Viktoria Plzen qualify automatically for the group stage ahead of PSV, who take a place in the qualifying round.

[Nessy76]

Quick one Nessy - I don't recall this being the case in the past. United weren't Pot One last season IIRC. Has this changed?

EDIT: The power of Google is amazing. I can indeed see that it has. Seems a strange one, that.

Yes, that's new. It goes with a guaranteed group stage place, where previously there was a chance of a play off.

In practice it means Porto go into Pot 2 and Atletico in Pot 1, rather than the other way around.

[cipher]

Don't mention the war!

I won't.

[4pool]

Also..fwiw...

This upcoming season of the Champions League and Europa League..

For all knock out matches which go to extra time, a 4th sub will be allowed just as it is at the World Cup.

[Nessy76]

Also..fwiw...

This upcoming season of the Champions League and Europa League..

For all knock out matches which go to extra time, a 4th sub will be allowed just as it is at the World Cup.

Good fact. Bet we've all forgotten that by the time the knock out stages roll around.

[kb2x]

Kick off times are 6pm and 8pm next season also if I remember correctly.