Poll

RAWK and Brexit

No Deal!
65 (8.8%)
Mays Deal!
14 (1.9%)
No Brexit!
539 (72.8%)
Don't Know
10 (1.4%)
Don't Care
15 (2%)
I don't live in the UK
97 (13.1%)

Total Members Voted: 740

Author Topic: Brexit: "Vultus inanis est et mori in fossa ego sum!"  (Read 1440245 times)

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24440 on: August 16, 2019, 10:37:58 am »
At this stage its not even clear the numbers are there to pass a VONC never mind to get a GNU in play.

The remaining Change MPs saying they won't support a VONC unless its clear there are the numbers in Parliament to get a GNU inp place, otherwise the VONC would just allow Johnson to run out the time on Article 50 by calling an election after it had expired
And they do raise an important point with that...l

Fuck knows what we do to be honest.
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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24441 on: August 16, 2019, 10:39:11 am »
If I had any sort of confidence the Lib Dems wouldn't do it all over again if afforded the opportunity I might agree they should be cut some slack, alas here we are and the first opportunity they have to act like the sensible centrists they claim to be and avoid no deal and Swinson steams out of the traps to make a needless and reckless move which flies in the face of what the party has claimed it stands for.

Btw I don’t see the angle here and agree that Swinson shouldn’t be ruling out anything at this stage.

I think the party realises who their natural bedfellows are and whilst you can’t rule out ever working with another party if the country needs it , such as now for example it makes perfect sense for Labour,Lib dems, Greens , Plaid and the SNP to work collaboratively.  It’s been shown what working with the Tories costs you and quite rightly too
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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24442 on: August 16, 2019, 10:43:17 am »
What reckless move is that?

(Bit lost here)

Refusing to work with a Corbyn led GoNU before waiting to see if he even had the numbers to make it happen. Refusing to do so before even the Tories invited along had done so.

What happens if he can make the numbers work and the 'anti brexit, we're grown ups we need to work across party lines' party has already flat out refused to allow him to prevent no deal? Another 180 from the party that's only ever so willing to do one.

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24443 on: August 16, 2019, 10:45:08 am »
... A minority government in this house won't be able to do anything beyond a narrow scope pre-agreed with all of its backers.


I've read some suggestions (though not well sourced) that the idea of immediate proroguing could be technically possible as one of the first acts of a PM once power is gained in order to bypass such constraints. I hope for everyones sakes that this is unfounded, and just not possible.

I understand that some were quite keen on Boris actually doing it first in order to then set a precedent within the current political landscape for such a thing.



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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24444 on: August 16, 2019, 10:49:50 am »
Refusing to work with a Corbyn led GoNU before waiting to see if he even had the numbers to make it happen. Refusing to do so before even the Tories invited along had done so.

What happens if he can make the numbers work and the 'anti brexit, we're grown ups we need to work across party lines' party has already flat out refused to allow him to prevent no deal? Another 180 from the party that's only ever so willing to do one.
I see what you meant now...

So, should we we be backing an antisemite as prime minister?
Will he put off too many Tories from a VONC?
Can we trust him not to force through a Brexit of his own if we do?

I’m guessing this is their thinking ....

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Offline redmark

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24445 on: August 16, 2019, 10:49:58 am »
No, I don’t agree. 

I don’t agree with what he says, but if I’m going to describe Corbyn asa useless c*nt, he’s got every right to do the same to Swinson
It can be criticised from the perspective of 'the left', though. The old hard left (influenced by proper 1970s feminism) wouldn't have been seen dead describing a female MP as a bitch or a cow. Apparently the new hard left doesn't mind so much.
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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24446 on: August 16, 2019, 10:51:16 am »
Not sure if it's registered with current Labour supporters, but moderate Tory voters - the ones who kept austerity going for 9 years and counting - will choose Johnson over Corbyn in a general election. And they'll not vote Lib Dem if Swinson puts Corbyn into power for however long before a general election. And if that doesn't happen then Labour doesn't get even a minority government supported by the Lib Dems on a vote by vote basis. Pyrrhic victories and all that.
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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24447 on: August 16, 2019, 10:51:25 am »
If I had any sort of confidence the Lib Dems wouldn't do it all over again if afforded the opportunity I might agree they should be cut some slack, alas here we are and the first opportunity they have to act like the sensible centrists they claim to be and avoid no deal and Swinson steams out of the traps to make a needless and reckless move which flies in the face of what the party has claimed it stands for.

This might be a stupid question, but it's an honest one;

Why are the Lib-dems not forgiven as a party for the coalition, but only "blairites" responsible for the Iraq war? Why can Blair be separated from Labour, but not Clegg from the Lib-dems?
Brexit (n) - "The undefined being negotiated by the unprepared in order to get the unspecified for the uninformed."

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24448 on: August 16, 2019, 10:51:48 am »
It can be criticised from the perspective of 'the left', though. The old hard left (influenced by proper 1970s feminism) wouldn't have been seen dead describing a female MP as a bitch or a cow. Apparently the new hard left doesn't mind so much.

Yeah, that’s a fair point...

I was just considering his use of invective, but of course it shouldn’t be because she’s a woman.
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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24449 on: August 16, 2019, 10:52:36 am »
I've read some suggestions (though not well sourced) that the idea of immediate proroguing could be technically possible as one of the first acts of a PM once power is gained in order to bypass such constraints. I hope for everyones sakes that this is unfounded, and just not possible.

I understand that some were quite keen on Boris actually doing it first in order to then set a precedent within the current political landscape for such a thing.





I still think Johnson is more interested in being seen to be doing anything he can to force through No Deal by 31st October before a GE can be called than he is in actually doing it.

He needs to be seen to be pushing for it as hard as possible to cannibalise the Brexit Party vote, particularly if he ends up fighting an election before Brexit is delivered, but it means he isn't fighting an election in possible chaos of the period just after a No Deal Brexit has gone through that he is responsible for.

I certainly don't think he would be crying if he was blocked and had to fight a GE on a People v Parliament campaign.

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24450 on: August 16, 2019, 10:53:37 am »
Utterly bemused by this visceral hatred for the Lib Dem’s, proper Life of Brian splitter stuff.
I agree with all of this - but reserve the right to point out (from the 'soft left') that Swinson has misjudged and overplayed her position on this occasion, though. A Corbyn led GNU may well have struggled to get the numbers, but it shouldn't have been the leader of the Lib Dems ruling him out, for what seems to be playing a little party politics of her own to be seen as the 'honest broker' of cross party talks. Win a couple of hundred seats and become the official opposition if you want to play at being leader of the opposition. As it is, Swinson has backed Corbyn into a corner which isn't good for anyone who wants to avoid No Deal.

She's still a relatively inexperienced and naive political leader. The vastly more experienced and astute Sturgeon - while having if anything greater recent hostility to the Labour party - has taken a very different approach.
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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24451 on: August 16, 2019, 10:55:53 am »
I agree with all of this - but reserve the right to point out (from the 'soft left') that Swinson has misjudged and overplayed her position on this occasion, though. A Corbyn led GNU may well have struggled to get the numbers, but it shouldn't have been the leader of the Lib Dems ruling him out, for what seems to be playing a little party politics of her own to be seen as the 'honest broker' of cross party talks. Win a couple of hundred seats and become the official opposition if you want to play at being leader of the opposition. As it is, Swinson has backed Corbyn into a corner which isn't good for anyone who wants to avoid No Deal.



I agree it was a misstep, and as predicted she already seems to be pulling back from it, now willing to talk to Labour to see how a GNU could be made to work, while still saying she doesn't believe the numbers are there with Corbyn leading.

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24452 on: August 16, 2019, 10:56:30 am »
This might be a stupid question, but it's an honest one;

Why are the Lib-dems not forgiven as a party for the coalition, but only "blairites" responsible for the Iraq war? Why can Blair be separated from Labour, but not Clegg from the Lib-dems?

Because the labour party has moved significantly to the left since the Blair years and looks to be an altogether different party?

Can the same be said of the Lib Dems? What differentiates this iteration of the LD's from Clegg's?

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24453 on: August 16, 2019, 10:57:48 am »
The Lib Dem's have done plenty to erode any amount of trust or affection they might have from genuinely left leaning voters.

It really isn't a case of they're disliked because they're moderate or centrists, they're disliked because they enabled the Tories to implement nasty, damaging and cruel austerity *this decade* much of which is still being felt, still fresh in the memories of most.

They also flip flopped on their one actual policy which garnered them some amount of votes to even enable them to be able to cosign on austerity in that whole tuition fee fuck up.

Now here we are again and for the second time in my life the Lib Dems are ready to fuck shit up and undermine the one thing they claim to stand for.

They earned any and all of the vitriol they get.

Enabling the Tories is simplistic at best, they were a thorn in the side of them.

I'll be voting Dem until Corbyn fucks off personally.

:D

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24454 on: August 16, 2019, 10:58:09 am »
Because the labour party has moved significantly to the left since the Blair years and looks to be an altogether different party?

Can the same be said of the Lib Dems? What differentiates this iteration of the LD's from Clegg's?
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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24455 on: August 16, 2019, 10:59:38 am »


I should have been clearer, it was with reference to the supposed constraints on a temporary gnu / PM preventing them from going outside their tight remit and if the constraints could possibly be bypassed. I'm reasonable confident that such a thing, if possible, would not have been ignored by Milne and Murray and others of that persuasion.

What I seek is an explanation and assurance as to why it couldn't be possible.
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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24456 on: August 16, 2019, 11:11:14 am »
Because the labour party has moved significantly to the left since the Blair years and looks to be an altogether different party?
Thanks.


Can the same be said of the Lib Dems? What differentiates this iteration of the LD's from Clegg's?

I don't know. That's why I generally follow these threads without contributing.

I'd say probably that the main difference they aren't in coalition with the Torys, and the fact that they won't jump straight in with Corbyn prossibly shows that maybe they are also a different party now, one more wary of getting so closely alligned to a party they don't share entirely similar views with?
« Last Edit: August 16, 2019, 11:12:49 am by eddymunster »
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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24457 on: August 16, 2019, 11:23:17 am »
I'm not sure where Gauke sits in the spectrum of likely Tory rebels, but not exactly enthused on the Corbyn option,

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24458 on: August 16, 2019, 11:49:19 am »
I'm not sure where Gauke sits in the spectrum of likely Tory rebels, but not exactly enthused on the Corbyn option,


Gauke and Hammond are meant to be working on something themselves which doesn't involve making Corbyn PM. Grieves rejecting it out of hand should really demonstrate that Swinson hadn't factored in Corbyn and Co pretending it was anything otherwise.
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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24459 on: August 16, 2019, 11:52:14 am »
I can absolutely see why people say Corbyn should be the PM in a GONU.
But if it’s such an issue that there is no GONU so you have to pick someone else.

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24460 on: August 16, 2019, 11:55:53 am »
The only way this could possibly work is with a tight schedule of actions:

1. Secure an A50 extension
2. Conduct a 2nd Ref
3. Hold a GE

With a disparate alliance able to withdraw their support at any time (thus making the GNU fall), there would be no room for deviating from the schedule.

Problem is, I can't imagine Corbyn and his team going for anything like that - and the TIGgers are too intent on despising Corbyn and not losing their Parliamentary seats in a brought-forward GE to support it, so would likely vote against and risk a no-deal.

A Tory, a worker and an immigrant are sat round a table. There's a plate of 10 biscuits in the middle. The Tory takes 9 then turns to the worker and says "that immigrant is trying to steal your biscuit"

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24461 on: August 16, 2019, 12:08:35 pm »
Gauke and Hammond are meant to be working on something themselves which doesn't involve making Corbyn PM. Grieves rejecting it out of hand should really demonstrate that Swinson hadn't factored in Corbyn and Co pretending it was anything otherwise.

Grieve's opposition pretty much kills it as a credible option I would think, the Labour leadership just need too many Tories to support it,  as they can't bring all the non-Tories to vote for Corbyn (and I'm not talking about the LDs there either)

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24462 on: August 16, 2019, 12:19:46 pm »
I can absolutely see why people say Corbyn should be the PM in a GONU.
But if it’s such an issue that there is no GONU so you have to pick someone else.


Agreed. I think the point of disagreement is that that isn't Swinson's decision and her eagerness to do so betrayed a desire to be seen as the leader of 'Stop-No-Deal' (with all the political gain associated) that slightly over-reached her position.
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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24465 on: August 16, 2019, 12:45:00 pm »
Or Scotland apparently.
Or 1977. Or 1924. Or 1929. Or local governments.
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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24466 on: August 16, 2019, 01:06:21 pm »
It's all well and good calling Corbyn a c*nt/tw*t and every other word under the sun!
Some of you need to get off your high horses!

He's earned the abuse with his ongoing abysmal performance since the referendum, you apparently think that she deserves being abused for not wanting to put a brexiter in charge of dealing with brexit.

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24467 on: August 16, 2019, 01:17:43 pm »
He's earned the abuse with his ongoing abysmal performance since the referendum, you apparently think that she deserves being abused for not wanting to put a brexiter in charge of dealing with brexit.

I'm no fan of Corbyn, but I'd reserve the c word for arch Brexiters. They can rot in hell as far as I am concerned.

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24468 on: August 16, 2019, 01:19:16 pm »
I'm no fan of Corbyn, but I'd reserve the c word for arch Brexiters. They can rot in hell as far as I am concerned.
errrrr...

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24469 on: August 16, 2019, 01:38:32 pm »
errrrr...



Fair point.

Arch Brexiter right wing c*nts.

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24470 on: August 16, 2019, 02:03:54 pm »
Grieve has now killed off Corbyn's plan, which Corbyn and Milne will have known was never a goer (and is simply thrown in to make it look like they're being vaguely grown up for once).

Jones and the rest of the Whatsapp group can get on with their revisionist, one-sided look at the Lib Dems going into coalition rather than ever offering anything constructive.

At this stage, does anyone have any idea what's going to happen??

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24471 on: August 16, 2019, 02:11:17 pm »
Grieve has now killed off Corbyn's plan, which Corbyn and Milne will have known was never a goer (and is simply thrown in to make it look like they're being vaguely grown up for once).

Jones and the rest of the Whatsapp group can get on with their revisionist, one-sided look at the Lib Dems going into coalition rather than ever offering anything constructive.

At this stage, does anyone have any idea what's going to happen??
I suppose the question now is will Corbyn still bring the VONC as soon as Parliament returns or will he say theres not much point if am not going to be leader of the National Government.
Blackford and others were talking about legislating to stop a no deal.
It might take our producers five minutes to find 60 economists who feared Brexit and five hours to find a sole voice who espoused it.
“But by the time we went on air we simply had one of each; we presented this unequal effort to our audience as balance. It wasn’t.”
               Emily Maitlis

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24472 on: August 16, 2019, 02:24:44 pm »
Corbyn would probably prefer if Johnson remains, UK leaves with a No-Deal and Tories remain in power, as long as that means he will hang onto the Labour leadership

Offline redmark

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24473 on: August 16, 2019, 02:28:06 pm »
I suppose the question now is will Corbyn still bring the VONC as soon as Parliament returns or will he say theres not much point if am not going to be leader of the National Government.
Blackford and others were talking about legislating to stop a no deal.
Corbyn won't bring a VONC if it's going to fail. They key on that probably won't be Grieve et al, who are open to a GNU (just not led by Corbyn), but by the Change UK bloc who are putting the argument that a VONC followed by no GNU leaves us open to a Johnson-scheduled election, and that it would be better to at least have a sitting parliament to try other legislative means to avoid No Deal.
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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24474 on: August 16, 2019, 02:45:28 pm »
Quote
New front in fake news - someone badly photoshopping an entirely made-up Guardian article, supposedly written by me, about invented Lib Dem splits. Odd and alarming.

Thanks to @Matt_Severn for pointing out.

https://twitter.com/peterwalker99/status/1162343760824602624

The original Tweet containing the fake news has nearly 500 likes.

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24475 on: August 16, 2019, 02:46:00 pm »
Corbyn won't bring a VONC if it's going to fail. They key on that probably won't be Grieve et al, who are open to a GNU (just not led by Corbyn), but by the Change UK bloc who are putting the argument that a VONC followed by no GNU leaves us open to a Johnson-scheduled election, and that it would be better to at least have a sitting parliament to try other legislative means to avoid No Deal.
There's a lot of different opinions on this, I understand the logic of Change, I hope they have their facts right.
It might take our producers five minutes to find 60 economists who feared Brexit and five hours to find a sole voice who espoused it.
“But by the time we went on air we simply had one of each; we presented this unequal effort to our audience as balance. It wasn’t.”
               Emily Maitlis

Offline redmark

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24476 on: August 16, 2019, 02:57:29 pm »
There's a lot of different opinions on this, I understand the logic of Change, I hope they have their facts right.
It's hardly novel to say so, but the big danger still seems to be that all the opponents of No Deal can't agree on the best way to stop it. That still seems to be the likeliest path to 'accidentally' sleepwalking into a No Deal.
Stop whining : https://spiritofshankly.com/ : https://thefsa.org.uk/join/ : https://reclaimourgame.com/
The focus now should not be on who the owners are, but limits on what owners can do without formal supporter agreement. At all clubs.

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24477 on: August 16, 2019, 03:29:48 pm »
It's hardly novel to say so, but the big danger still seems to be that all the opponents of No Deal can't agree on the best way to stop it. That still seems to be the likeliest path to 'accidentally' sleepwalking into a No Deal.
Change can voice a opinion but they also need to accept facts. if they believe other parties have got their facts wrong on Parliamentary procedure then they need to sit down with other parties and discuss who is right or wrong.
The parties have a few weeks to thrash this out and I think the possibility of a no deal will force compromise. the first thing everyone's agreed on is we need a extension. Zeb pointed out this extension can't take us in to April next year. so that's a 5 month extension at most. we need to either have another referendum or GE to bring about another referendum inside 5 months. can this Parliament achieve all this is the question.
It might take our producers five minutes to find 60 economists who feared Brexit and five hours to find a sole voice who espoused it.
“But by the time we went on air we simply had one of each; we presented this unequal effort to our audience as balance. It wasn’t.”
               Emily Maitlis

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24478 on: August 16, 2019, 03:41:32 pm »
https://twitter.com/peterwalker99/status/1162343760824602624

The original Tweet containing the fake news has nearly 500 likes.

I enjoyed the "I know some bad people" quote given to Swinson.

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Re: Brexit Magic Flying Rainbow coloured Unicorn jolly tip-top-ho! Gosh! Thread.
« Reply #24479 on: August 16, 2019, 03:46:44 pm »
Grieve has now killed off Corbyn's plan, which Corbyn and Milne will have known was never a goer (and is simply thrown in to make it look like they're being vaguely grown up for once).

Jones and the rest of the Whatsapp group can get on with their revisionist, one-sided look at the Lib Dems going into coalition rather than ever offering anything constructive.

At this stage, does anyone have any idea what's going to happen??

No deal Brexit on the 31st of October.
I've just wiped the sticky residue from my bellend onto the television screen. Taste it Leo. You deserve it.
I would honestly let Wijnaldum jizz in my face right now