Author Topic: General Election on June 8th  (Read 416873 times)

Offline Team Sleep

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Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #4080 on: May 27, 2017, 06:41:13 pm »
To be fair, I think it's a typo.

I've seen it a few times in here recently.

Interesting to see the swing in personal approval ratings, hadn't held out much hope of a change there despite the very different performances of the two leaders.

Offline TravisBickle

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Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #4081 on: May 27, 2017, 06:42:19 pm »
Yes, its an incredibly complex issue to put it mildly.

I certainly wouldn't be holding up anybody as a prophet for their warnings on Iraq. Ultimately, most of those who opposed the Iraq war didn't do so because they didn't believe Sadaam had chemical weapons. Likewise most of those who did support it didn't do so because they thought he had. As is normal in these matters, both sides were mainly motivated by ideological beliefs and concerns. As we obviously don't have any counter factual, at least with regard to the continuing rise of Islamic extremism, on how things would have went if the war didn't happen, saying one side or the other was right on Iraq can never be definitive. What we can say is that the reason put forward for invasion was proved to be false. But that's not the reason people coming from Corbyn's perspective would have opposed the war in the first place. 

Just on whataboutery, I have never understood why this term is brought into debates as to somebody's fitness to be leader of a country. If you are merely condemning somebody's moral compass or the content of their character, for instance, then whataboutery is not a suitable reply. But in many other scenarios, for example if you are talking about somebody's fitness to lead, surely comparisons are appropriate.

With regard to a person's fitness to lead, than surely the actions of other leaders who have been generally accepted as fit to lead should be a better barometer than some subjective metric imposed by one side or the other.

 I quite agree. Corbyn didn't oppose the Iraq War because he had any special insight on the issue, he opposed it because he will always oppose western intervention. Had Iraq gone well, Corbyn and his crowd would just pretend it never happened or chosen to defend Saddam Hussein as they did with Milosevic over Kosovo. They're ghoulish on this sort of thing.

 It's difficult to judge Corbyn in terms of other people who have been deemed fit to lead because he has never been involved in frontline politics. He has always been an obscure backbencher with little to no influence over anything of importance. That's why otherwise intelligent people pretending Corbyn meeting the IRA is the same as former ministers meeting the IRA is so fucking infuriating.

 At the end of the day, he's a moral mess. He is no great champion of human rights, he's no visionary on the issue of foreign policy and he has gushed about people and groups who represent the absolute worst kinds of political thought.
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Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #4082 on: May 27, 2017, 06:59:09 pm »
I've seen it a few times in here recently.

Interesting to see the swing in personal approval ratings, hadn't held out much hope of a change there despite the very different performances of the two leaders.
amber Rudd is on 43%, Abbott on 12% on who is better

Offline Alan_X

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Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #4083 on: May 27, 2017, 07:01:35 pm »
A simple moral problem: 

You are the UK Prime Minister.

There's been a suicide bomb attack that's killed 50 people in the UK and intelligence says that the bomber was trained in a camp in ISIS occupied Syria. Intelligence also says that the training is ongoing and likely to result in further suicide attacks.

There's obviously no chance of an arrest. Do you authorise an air-strike or drone attack to take out the bomb factory?
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Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #4084 on: May 27, 2017, 07:05:33 pm »
A simple moral problem: 

You are the UK Prime Minister.

There's been a suicide bomb attack that's killed 50 people in the UK and intelligence says that the bomber was trained in a camp in ISIS occupied Syria. Intelligence also says that the training is ongoing and likely to result in further suicide attacks.

There's obviously no chance of an arrest. Do you authorise an air-strike or drone attack to take out the bomb factory?
Easy, yes.

Well, not easy, you have to be certain of course, but this kind of intelligence is always shrouded in doubt.

However, lesser of two evils in my opinion.  The lesser of two evils is the position of foreign policy most often.  Do you support the dictator, or overthrow him and allow carnage?  Doing nothing is often an evil in its self.

Politicians often get cast as evil, and I'm of the opinion that ours pretty much aren't.  These are incredibly difficult calls, and getting it wrong isn't always there as easy as it seems from the outside.
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Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #4085 on: May 27, 2017, 07:12:06 pm »
Opportunist bastards, not machiavellian bastards.

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Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #4086 on: May 27, 2017, 07:18:58 pm »
amber Rudd is on 43%, Abbott on 12% on who is better

Not surprised but doubt anyone will give those two a thought at the ballot box. Would love to see the results of a "who the fuck are they" poll though...



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Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #4087 on: May 27, 2017, 09:15:05 pm »
Westminster voting intention:

CON: 44% (-2)
LAB: 38% (+4)
LDEM: 7% (-)
UKIP: 5% (-2)

(via @ORB_Int / 24 - 25 May)

Offline Trada

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Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #4088 on: May 27, 2017, 09:17:20 pm »
The Tories have gone into melt down on Twitter tonight just slur after slur.

They are rattled.
Don't blame me I voted for Jeremy Corbyn!!

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Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #4089 on: May 27, 2017, 09:17:26 pm »
Westminster voting intention:

CON: 44% (-2)
LAB: 38% (+4)
LDEM: 7% (-)
UKIP: 5% (-2)

(via @ORB_Int / 24 - 25 May)

Polls seem to be holding up.
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Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #4090 on: May 27, 2017, 09:23:24 pm »
Thing is with the polls, if every constituency was like that Labour would still be getting their arses handed to them.  To a point they're useful but unless you had the numbers by constituency they're kind of pissing into the wind.
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Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #4091 on: May 27, 2017, 09:25:44 pm »
Polls seem to be holding up.
You'll see some differences based on turnout models I think, I think ICM and Comres base theirs more on whether people have voted historically rather than whether they say they will vote in this election, which will probably hurt Labour in their numbers

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Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #4092 on: May 27, 2017, 09:38:20 pm »
Westminster voting intention:

CON: 43% (-)
LAB: 36% (-2)
LDEM: 9% (-1)
UKIP: 4% (-)

(via @YouGov / 25 - 26 May)

Thing is with the polls, if every constituency was like that Labour would still be getting their arses handed to them.  To a point they're useful but unless you had the numbers by constituency they're kind of pissing into the wind.
to put this into a betting context Tories are 1/12 to get most seats, and that's the best price!

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Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #4093 on: May 27, 2017, 09:38:41 pm »
The Tories have gone into melt down on Twitter tonight just slur after slur.

They are rattled.
who out of interest?

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Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #4094 on: May 27, 2017, 09:39:53 pm »
Labour drop back a bit here..

Quote
http://Westminster voting intention:

CON: 43% (-)
LAB: 36% (-2)
LDEM: 9% (-1)
UKIP: 4% (-)

(via @YouGov / 25 - 26 May)

Not significant changes I suspect...
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Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #4095 on: May 27, 2017, 09:41:06 pm »
Reckon the best we can hope for is the Tories lose their majority but remain the largest party.  As things stand I'd say there's a 20% chance of that at best.  There are too many regional fluctuations to nail it down, and nobody trusts the polls after 2015.

Interesting to see Labour trying to stay calm and composed as the Tories lose their shit completely with the negative attacks.  Have people seen through this tactic at last?  That they're trying way too hard when it comes to the fear peddling?  Are people thinking Labour offer something different and more hopeful, or are we just getting set up for a massive fall.  Right now it seems Labour could finish anywhere from 170 -250 seats.

Just watching Theresa May lose her majority after throwing away a 20 point lead against Jeremy Corbyn would be absolutely fucking hillarious.  And I don't think anybody will be too eager for a coalition this time around.
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Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #4096 on: May 27, 2017, 10:03:32 pm »
Reckon the best we can hope for is the Tories lose their majority but remain the largest party.  As things stand I'd say there's a 20% chance of that at best.  There are too many regional fluctuations to nail it down, and nobody trusts the polls after 2015.

Interesting to see Labour trying to stay calm and composed as the Tories lose their shit completely with the negative attacks.  Have people seen through this tactic at last?  That they're trying way too hard when it comes to the fear peddling?  Are people thinking Labour offer something different and more hopeful, or are we just getting set up for a massive fall.  Right now it seems Labour could finish anywhere from 170 -250 seats.

Just watching Theresa May lose her majority after throwing away a 20 point lead against Jeremy Corbyn would be absolutely fucking hillarious.  And I don't think anybody will be too eager for a coalition this time around.

The Lib Dems have ruled it out, despite Labour/Corbyn supporters on Twitter trying to convince people otherwise.

My hope is that whatever the result, the Tories have to deal with Brexit, not only because they're largely responsible for getting us into the mess but to keep Corbyn away from Brexit. I have no faith whatsoever in him with Brexit and if he cocks it up, he's taking Labour down with him. Let the Tories demonstrate what a silly idea Brexit is, and have Corbyn squirm as the public at large question why he didn't try to stop, or at least moderate it when he had the chance. "The will of the people" excuse shouldn't be something he can hide behind at that point.

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Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #4097 on: May 27, 2017, 10:24:26 pm »
The Tories have gone into melt down on Twitter tonight just slur after slur.

They are rattled.

Sounds just like the Corbynistas cup of tea?

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Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #4098 on: May 27, 2017, 11:13:05 pm »
The Tories have gone into melt down on Twitter tonight just slur after slur.

They are rattled.

 Who has been slurring him, Trada? I don't follow any Tories on Twitter.
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Offline Trada

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Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #4099 on: May 27, 2017, 11:18:20 pm »
They are saying that the Tories are going to restart their campaign and just talk about Brexit and Jeremy being PM will mean more bombs going off in the UK.

They may discover like on other subjects once people start to hear what he has to say on a subject they start to agree with him.

I was looking around the Labour site earlier interesting to see they are using some of the APPs developed by Momentum during the leadership campaign like the one once you register you can became a telephone canvasser using you own phone when the calls are diverted though your phone so it free and you can do it as little as as often as you like.
Don't blame me I voted for Jeremy Corbyn!!

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Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #4100 on: May 27, 2017, 11:21:05 pm »
Who has been slurring him, Trada? I don't follow any Tories on Twitter.

The Tory main twitter accounts I checked the BBC politics feed earlier and nearly the last 6 tweets were all anti Labour stories spread by the Tories that was a few hours ago haven't checked since.

And there is a story in one of the paper about the Tories targeting people in tight seats with fake news about Jeremy like hes going to hit people with a death tax and questions about how they got the data.

Revealed: Tory ‘dark’ ads targeted voters’ Facebook feeds in Welsh marginal seat

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/may/27/conservatives-facebook-dark-ads-data-protection-election?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
« Last Edit: May 27, 2017, 11:33:08 pm by Trada »
Don't blame me I voted for Jeremy Corbyn!!

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Offline Billy Elliot

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Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #4101 on: May 27, 2017, 11:24:15 pm »
Can't stand Rod Liddle, but this did make me laugh:

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/05/this-is-the-worst-tory-election-campaign-ever/#

THIS IS THE WORST TORY ELECTION CAMPAIGN EVER

I am trying to remember if there was ever a worse Conservative election campaign than this current dog’s breakfast — and failing. Certainly 2001 was pretty awful, with Oliver Letwin going rogue and Thatcher sniping nastily from behind the arras. It is often said that 1987 was a little lacklustre and Ted Heath had effectively thrown in the towel in October 1974. But I don’t think anything quite matches up to this combination of prize gaffes and the robotic incantation of platitudinous idiocies.

To have suggested that the hunting with dogs legislation might be subject to a free vote in the House of Commons was, whether you are pro hunting or against, a move of quite stunning stupidity. Why alienate that 84 per cent of the electorate opposed to fox-hunting (Ipsos-Mori, 2016), especially when some of them (including me) are quite passionately anti-hunting and might be tempted to change their vote? And when you already have the pro-fox-hunting votes in your grasp? It makes no electoral sense.

Still more remarkable was the decision to force demented people to sell their own houses, if they can remember where they are, to pay for their own care. Followed very shortly by an embarrassing U-turn.
This was passed off by the Tories as an example of pristine honesty, of nettles being grasped in an admirably transparent manner. But, like much of the current Tory campaign, it smacked to me of two things — complacency and arrogance. It suggested yet again that Theresa May called this election convinced that almost nothing she could do or say would prevent the inevitable landslide.
I think she was horribly wrong about that. I just pray to the Lord Jesus Christ that she was not so horribly wrong that we wake up on 9 June to find that Diane Abbott is the Home Secretary, Emily Thornberry in charge of Trident, all part of a Labour-Lib Dem-Tartan Munchkin Alliance, aided by that sinister reptilian Green woman, Lucas, and Natalie Wood or whatever her name is from Wales, look you.
That scenario is still unlikely, but I will bet it is not half so unlikely as many of you, or Theresa May, believed when the election was called. Back then the headlines were talking of a Labour and Ukip wipeout and a landslide for the Tories.

I never remotely bought that notion, no matter what the polls said. I have been banging on for ages about how the Labour vote, especially in the north, is a lot ‘stickier’ than the pollsters think. My guess was that May would win a majority of 30 or so, but that was before Conservative Central Office took out its hardy shotgun and began blowing off both of its feet. I may have to revise that figure downwards. Either way, and those gaffes excluded, here’s why I think the Tory lead in the polls has been halved — yes, halved — despite the fact that the Labour party is led by Chauncey Gardiner out of Hal Ashby’s wonderful satire Being There.

First, the election was not wanted and is deeply resented beyond the Westminster bubble. The only people who actually enjoy elections are journos and the politically active: that leaves 97 per cent of the population who are somewhat averse, especially after a bruising referendum last year. May is resented for having foisted the election upon us, and people may be inclined to punish her for it, either by staying at home or voting against. The most salient comment of this election may have been made on the day it was called, by Brenda of Bristol: ‘Oh no, what’s she done that for?’ People suspect that their lives are being disrupted for Theresa May’s political and personal gain. And they’re not wrong, are they?

Second. Jeremy Corbyn is not notably less popular in the Midlands and north of the country than Ed Miliband was. And he has had a good election so far. The Labour vote remains buoyant and is growing. Don’t forget that the populist revolution we have seen here and in the US and in Europe does not come exclusively from the right. Corbyn presents an anti-establishment populist left-wing agenda, much as did Syriza and Five Star (and the SNP, come to that) and he offers it to an electorate which has a certain appetite for such radicalism. If he changed his tune on immigration he could conceivably win.
Third. Theresa May has the personal warmth, wit, oratorical ability and attractiveness of an Indesit fridge-freezer which has been faultily connected by a man called Trevor for five quid, cash in hand, and which is now full of decomposing Findus Crispy Pancakes. There is no vision, there is no chutzpah. Just the bland repetition of meaningless phrases. Corbyn is a far better campaigner.

Fourth. Yes, the Labour front bench has the collective IQ of a fairly small bowl of krill. But the Conservative front bench is pretty thinnish, too, isn’t it? Would you book Amber Rudd or Philip Hammond to deliver a rousing speech at your company’s annual shindig? I’d rather listen to a tape of Greylag geese squabbling over mating rights.

Fifth. The Ukip vote will migrate to the Tories en masse — but in the south, where they don’t need it. Far less so in the north and Midlands, where they do need it. There, many will remain with Ukip, especially if bad bootle meff ramps up the anti-Islam rhetoric in the wake of the Manchester atrocity. Of the rest, a fair few will go back to the habitual berth of the Labour party.
Sixth. I had not expected the Lib Dem vote to disappear. But given that it does seem to be disappearing, it won’t turn up in the pockets of Conservative candidates. Almost anyone but — and most likely Labour.

I’ve always thought that calling the election was a mistake predicated on misplaced confidence. Today, I’m even more convinced of that view.
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Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #4102 on: May 27, 2017, 11:33:50 pm »
The Tory main twitter accounts I checked the BBC politics feed earlier and nearly the last 6 tweets were all anti Labour stories spread by the Tories that was a few hours ago haven't checked since.

 I could only find a tweet from Johnson who claimed Corbyn can't be trusted because he lied about the IRA. As grotesquely amusing as it may be to see that fuckwit talk about trustworthiness he isn't actually wrong - Corbyn has lied about his links to the IRA. Whatever your opinion on the conflict, the PIRA, Britain's role or Corbyn's conduct it is an inescapable fact that he's not been truthful over the events.
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Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #4103 on: May 27, 2017, 11:34:53 pm »
Westminster voting intention:

CON: 46% (-1)
LAB: 32% (-1)
LDEM: 8% (-1)
UKIP: 5% (+1)
GRN: 2% (-)

(via @ICMResearch / 24 - 26 May)

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Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #4104 on: May 27, 2017, 11:35:36 pm »
Westminster voting intention:

CON: 46% (-1)
LAB: 32% (-1)
LDEM: 8% (-1)
UKIP: 5% (+1)
GRN: 2% (-)

(via @ICMResearch / 24 - 26 May)
Ah,,..
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Offline Billy Elliot

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Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #4105 on: May 27, 2017, 11:57:30 pm »
So:

25th to 26th - 7% lead.
24th to 26th - 14% lead
24th to 26th - 12% lead
24th to 25th - 6% lead
24th to 25th - 8% lead
24th to 25th - 5% lead

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Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #4106 on: May 28, 2017, 12:01:24 am »
So:

25th to 26th - 7% lead.
24th to 26th - 14% lead
24th to 26th - 12% lead
24th to 25th - 6% lead
24th to 25th - 8% lead
24th to 25th - 5% lead



Spot the pollsters who feel there will be a strong youth vote in favour of Labour.
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Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #4107 on: May 28, 2017, 12:03:29 am »
https://twitter.com/aaronbastani/status/868508312274436098

Moving towards parity :lmao

And there is a story in one of the paper about the Tories targeting people in tight seats with fake news about Jeremy like hes going to hit people with a death tax and questions about how they got the data.

Revealed: Tory ‘dark’ ads targeted voters’ Facebook feeds in Welsh marginal seat

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/may/27/conservatives-facebook-dark-ads-data-protection-election?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
you know it's quite easy to target ads by geolocation on Facebook/twitter/YouTube? Plus nothing stopping labour doing this and bringing up factual things, like a list of mays failures as Home Secretary for one

Offline gregor

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Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #4108 on: May 28, 2017, 12:11:46 am »
The heartbreaking think about the polls and May being woeful is that Labour would have walloped them with a different leader. Imagine if in a different world David Miliband had ended up leader now. He'd have annihilated her.

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Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #4109 on: May 28, 2017, 12:13:41 am »
The heartbreaking think about the polls and May being woeful is that Labour would have walloped them with a different leader. Imagine if in a different world David Miliband had ended up leader now. He'd have annihilated her.
hed have probably beat Cameron in 2015 and we wouldn't have all his mess, but the unions and the ones who based their vote on the one who didn't vote for the Iraq war won, sadly for all of us

Offline TravisBickle

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Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #4110 on: May 28, 2017, 12:24:59 am »
The heartbreaking think about the polls and May being woeful is that Labour would have walloped them with a different leader. Imagine if in a different world David Miliband had ended up leader now. He'd have annihilated her.

 I genuinely think Yvette Cooper and a cabinet containing Umunna, Benn, Jarvis and the Eagles would be twatting the absolute life out of this shower.
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Offline Billy Elliot

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Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #4111 on: May 28, 2017, 12:26:25 am »
Last 5 YouGOV                        Last 5 ComRes                Opinium

7%                                          12%                               10%
5%                                          18%                               13%
9%                                          25%                               14%
13%                                          9%                               16%
18%                                         17%                              17%

Last 5 ICM                               ORB

14%                                         6%
14%                                        12%
20%                                        14%
22%                                        16%
18%                                        11%
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Offline alvaro

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Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #4112 on: May 28, 2017, 04:14:00 am »
The heartbreaking think about the polls and May being woeful is that Labour would have walloped them with a different leader. Imagine if in a different world David Miliband had ended up leader now. He'd have annihilated her.

They can't be that good if they lost to Corbyn in the first place.
Some people in the forum put way too much attention to Jeremy Corbyn mistakes but little attention to the reason he won in the first place. The labour establishment was awful, they failed against Cameron and then they failed against Corbyn within the space of 6 months. They simply lost touch with the electorate and their own base.

Offline Jonny-B

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Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #4113 on: May 28, 2017, 06:02:12 am »
https://twitter.com/aaronbastani/status/868508312274436098

Moving towards parity :lmao
you know it's quite easy to target ads by geolocation on Facebook/twitter/YouTube? Plus nothing stopping labour doing this and bringing up factual things, like a list of mays failures as Home Secretary for one

Facebook has a lot more control over you spam. Actual demographics etc due to them using your profile along with real location. So parties can target actual constituencies. It's much harder with YouTube but the video ads are much more persuasive. Twitter ads have been a waste of time for me in the past.

Offline SP

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Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #4114 on: May 28, 2017, 07:14:11 am »
They can't be that good if they lost to Corbyn in the first place.
Some people in the forum put way too much attention to Jeremy Corbyn mistakes but little attention to the reason he won in the first place. The labour establishment was awful, they failed against Cameron and then they failed against Corbyn within the space of 6 months. They simply lost touch with the electorate and their own base.

The Labour membership is not the electorate. A successful leader needs to win both over.

Offline Libertine

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Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #4115 on: May 28, 2017, 08:45:30 am »


To have a 9% range in the Con-Lab lead in polls conducted at the same time is bordering on ridiculous.

When you compare with the French polls - a 11 candidate race in a far more volatile and changing political climate, which were not only hugely consistent but ended up very accurate - you have to think pollsters in this country are still really struggling to get accurate data and modelling.

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Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #4116 on: May 28, 2017, 08:57:43 am »


To have a 9% range in the Con-Lab lead in polls conducted at the same time is bordering on ridiculous.

When you compare with the French polls - a 11 candidate race in a far more volatile and changing political climate, which were not only hugely consistent but ended up very accurate - you have to think pollsters in this country are still really struggling to get accurate data and modelling.
I believe there are significant differences in turnout modelling now.

If Labour really does get previous non voters to vote in significant numbers then ICM and Comres will understate their support as they weight turnout more heavily by past voting behaviour than by whether someone says they will vote or not, because historically more people say they will definitely vote than actually bother to vote.

Offline Alan_X

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Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #4117 on: May 28, 2017, 10:03:47 am »
It's just a lot of assumptions.   

No, it's a lot of questions. Do you have any answers?
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Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #4118 on: May 28, 2017, 10:08:26 am »
The heartbreaking think about the polls and May being woeful is that Labour would have walloped them with a different leader. Imagine if in a different world David Miliband had ended up leader now. He'd have annihilated her.

This thread is full of wild assumptions and baseless speculation, and people who always think they're right because cognitive bias leads them to share articles that fit their opinion (last point not aimed at you). I'm not blameless, but it's becoming annoying.
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Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #4119 on: May 28, 2017, 10:10:45 am »


To have a 9% range in the Con-Lab lead in polls conducted at the same time is bordering on ridiculous.

When you compare with the French polls - a 11 candidate race in a far more volatile and changing political climate, which were not only hugely consistent but ended up very accurate - you have to think pollsters in this country are still really struggling to get accurate data and modelling.

What's interesting about those polls is that the Tories seem to be a bit more consistent, with Labour support a tad more volatile.  Looking at the minor parties I'd say there are a lot of people umming and ahhing about whether to vote, Green, Lib Dem, UKIP etc, but who might end up switching to Labour at the last moment.  Or not.

It still doesn't matter though.  I'm no pollster and have no data or understand swings or regional variations all that much, but if I were to pull some random figures out of my arse I'd say Labour would need a 4% lead over the Tories just to wipe out their majority.

I'd go with filopastry on this - for Labour to pull off even a moderate surprise they'll be relying on people getting out to vote who ordinarily wouldn't, and they'd need to be voting Labour.  As I said earlier though, poll errors usually favour the Tories.

What's the picture in Scotand?  Anybody expecting even a small Labour comeback there?  They surely couldn't do any worse than 2015...
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