Topic: Nobby's Green Thread. A great party with great ideas. A great bunch of lads!

[Redman0151]

So what we have here are a number of people who should be green voters but irrationally won't vote for them

People really have no right to complain about the current labour/tory conservative if they haven't got the balls to "waste their vote".


Even if it doesn't result in the greens getting seats it can make their voting numbers get to a point where labour starts to take notice and moves further left

[Card Cheat]

People really have no right to complain about the current labour/tory conservative if they haven't got the balls to "waste their vote".

It depends on the constituency. The stakes are much lower in a safe seat than a marginal. So in some constituencies 'wasting your vote' doesn't take any balls at all.

This lovely chap is my current MP. He has a majority of only 332, so although ideally I would love to vote Green, in reality I'll be voting Labour.

[Redman0151]

It depends on the constituency. The stakes are much lower in a safe seat than a marginal. So in some constituencies 'wasting your vote' doesn't take any balls at all.

This lovely chap is my current MP. He has a majority of only 332, so although ideally I would love to vote Green, in reality I'll be voting Labour.

What if the labour candidate loses by a couple 100, whilst greens pick up an extra 500+ this time around? What if this starts happening in more and more areas of the country?

This is how labour can be forced into taking notice and adjusting, rather than coasting further and further right. I don't care if I have the deciding vote, i'd rather vote for what I believe in and push for change than just be pragmatic and accept the continued push towards right wing politics

[Red Beret]

Is correct.  We need Green voters in safe Labour areas.  Labour wont move back to the left until the core heartlands it takes for granted comes under threat.

As for UKIP's "exposure" - it's natural in a country with a right wing media that a right wing party will muster more attention than a socialist left wing one.  That's part of the problem we're facing.  They wont take notice until they have to, until they're forced to.

[God's Left Peg]

Suspected I was always meant to be a Green Party follower, and when I used Vote For Policies it pretty much confirmed it for me.

Yeah me too. Although I also apparently have a bit of lib Dem and UKIP in me. Ugh! Need to shower after admitting that last bit...

[GREGtheRED]

Green Party LGBTIQ @LGBTIQGreens  ·  12 mins 12 minutes ago
There are plenty of young people recruited into the British army to commit horrific acts. #BBCQT #doublestandards

Disgusting, astonishing moral equivalence by a Green Party Twitter feed attempting to draw comparisons between the British Army and the Islamic State. And people genuinely want these people in government.

As I already stated in this thread, I am extremely sympathetic towards so many of their environmental and social policies but it is things like this that repel me.

[WelshMike]

People really have no right to complain about the current labour/tory conservative if they haven't got the balls to "waste their vote".


Even if it doesn't result in the greens getting seats it can make their voting numbers get to a point where labour starts to take notice and moves further left

Completely agree. It's a cowardly stance. I can see why people do it, but it pretty much prohibits change and the bankers and big-time politicians absolutely love the mentality.

Having said that, the country had the chance to address the issue somewhat with AV and then decided they didn't want that either, the fucking morons. So now we have a majority of weak-willed people who cite tactical voting and then complain about it for five years - pathetic, really.

I'll vote Green and if I didn't then I'd spoil my vote, because it's a toss-up between three sets of slightly different tossers in the traditional big three plus a move further right with the even more despicable UKIP. I'd argue that voting Green is the only non-wasted vote out there, but as long as people vote honestly (rather than tactically) then I won't complain, even if it is for some scumbag party out there.

[jooneyisdagod]

Disgusting, astonishing moral equivalence by a Green Party Twitter feed attempting to draw comparisons between the British Army and the Islamic State. And people genuinely want these people in government.

As I already stated in this thread, I am extremely sympathetic towards so many of their environmental and social policies but it is things like this that repel me.

Unfortunately, this is my one true fear for the Greens party. The fear that it'll get hijacked by the sort of people that work in Greenpeace and believe me in my few interactions with people of that ilk, I've come to realise they are as loony as those on the right. And what's worse, some of them tend to be 'spiritual' and deeply in love with Asian mysticism. Luckily, most Greens supporters I've ever come across are not like that at all.

[zebenzui]

Unfortunately, this is my one true fear for the Greens party. The fear that it'll get hijacked by the sort of people that work in Greenpeace and believe me in my few interactions with people of that ilk, I've come to realise they are as loony as those on the right. And what's worse, some of them tend to be 'spiritual' and deeply in love with Asian mysticism. Luckily, most Greens supporters I've ever come across are not like that at all.

I wished I had your talent of invalidating your own fears so swiftly after you give voice to them.

Disgusting, astonishing moral equivalence by a Green Party Twitter feed attempting to draw comparisons between the British Army and the Islamic State. And people genuinely want these people in government.

As I already stated in this thread, I am extremely sympathetic towards so many of their environmental and social policies but it is things like this that repel me.

Is it actually untrue? What wars are free of horrific acts?

Off topic but I think this country has a worrying trend of taking the reverent line in treating and considering the military. This despite having been engaged largely in undesired conflicts in this generation.

[jooneyisdagod]

I wished I had your talent of invalidating your own fears so swiftly after you give voice to them.

With good reason and I mentioned it too. The vast majority of Greens supporters I've come across are nothing like those fringe groups I mentioned. It would be a much larger issue if they were to become a much larger proportion of the supporter base.

[johnsmithlfc]

Always voted Green and a few times Lib Dems.

I've also done the political compass test a few times and it's always roughly the same.

[CornerFlag]

Pretty much the same as you John.



I think the Green Party as a whole will always have the odd person who isn't a tight fit to the ideals.

Greg, there are acts committed by British soldiers that are heinous (Marine A flagrantly and knowingly breaking the Geneva Convention on combatants being one) so, factually, the tweet is correct, would you not admit?  And, on reading the tweet first time without context, genuinely didn't get an Islamic State thing from it until you drew the comparison.

[MOZ]

For those concerned about whether a party like the Greens can really mount a challenge against the big guns in UK politics. Or for those thinking of voting tactically in the election - take at look at what is happening here in Spain. There is a new dawn of politics approaching and Spain is leading the way.

By continuing as many are in the UK: tactically voting for the lesser of two evils - nothing will ever change. The cycle of greed, corruption and jobs for the boys will continue. Politics need a revolution, and those with right-wing leanings are already nailing their colours to the UKIP mast. But what of the left-wing voters with socialist ideals, do you really think that Labour will represent your ideals? Surely it’s time to try something new.

The disillusionment and anger in Spain has sparked a remarkable fire in Spanish politics and while many in the UK long for change, the people of Spain are making it happen.

The Podemos party were only formed in January of this year and their first pledge was to bring an end to the elitism, cronyism and corruption of the established ‘Caste’ of Spanish politics. Led by a university professor called Pablo Iglesias and a bunch of like-minded school teachers, intellectuals and scientists, they have gone from nowhere to second in the opinion polls and are now just 2% behind the governing PP party.

They have sworn to repair broken Spain and end the 30 dominance of the two main parties, the PSOE and the PP. They will take money back from the elite and spend it on the working class people. They already have 5 MEP’s despite only being formed nine months ago.

The party has captured the mood of the people with their promise to end tax havens for the elite, stamp out corruption and wipe the Spanish political slate clean. They will turn the tables and divert billions of Euros away from bankers and politicians and reward the people instead.

A political arm has basically been added to the many protest movements that have sprung up over the country in the last few years. They have achieved their whirlwind success despite a massive smear campaign from the right-wing media and Pablo Iglesias has already sued some of them for libel.

Podemos now has over 800 groups or “circles” across Spain and every member can vote on their policies. Party membership already stands at around 250,000.

Some of their policies include:

Guaranteed living wage for all (unemployment benefit currently stops after one year in Spain and over 2 million households have no income at all)
35hr working week
Retirement age reduced to 60
Electricity, water and heating to be guaranteed by public companies
Complete equal rights for LGBTs
Right to legal aid
Return all privatised centres and hospitals to the public sector
Increase public health workforce
Right to safe and free abortion
Guarantee the right to a dignified death
Reduce VAT from 21% to 4% on cultural events
End subsidies for private education and allocate savings to finance and improve public schools
Support self-determination for Western Sahara
Recognition of a Palestinian state
Demand a full Israeli withdrawal from the occupied territories
Referendum on Spain leaving NATO
Ban bullfighting and trafficking of exotic or endangered species
End tax privileges of the Catholic Church

The Spanish general election is next year and 51 people including members and associates of the current government have just been arrested as part of a massive anti-corruption investigation. Podemos have a serious chance of getting into government despite being just nine months old.

[Card Cheat]

Completely agree. It's a cowardly stance. I can see why people do it, but it pretty much prohibits change and the bankers and big-time politicians absolutely love the mentality.

Having said that, the country had the chance to address the issue somewhat with AV and then decided they didn't want that either, the fucking morons. So now we have a majority of weak-willed people who cite tactical voting and then complain about it for five years - pathetic, really.

It very much depends on the constituency though. There's nothing cowardly or weak willed about voting tactically in a marginal. We currently have a very right-wing Tory MP with a tiny majority, so the first port of call will be to vote in the Labour candidate, and then go from there.

A voter in a safe seat can vote Green safe in the knowledge they've voted in line with their principles, and while not determining the outcome have helped to dent the numbers of the main parties. If I were to transfer my vote from Labour to Green (if we have a candidate) it would directly assist the Tories. I'm all for sending Labour a message as it were, but not at the expense of keeping the monumental bellend we have now for another five years.

It's just a reflection of the voting system. For ordinary people the ballot box itself is overrated compared to what we're capable of doing in the intervening periods.

Unfortunately, this is my one true fear for the Greens party. The fear that it'll get hijacked by the sort of people that work in Greenpeace and believe me in my few interactions with people of that ilk, I've come to realise they are as loony as those on the right. And what's worse, some of them tend to be 'spiritual' and deeply in love with Asian mysticism. Luckily, most Greens supporters I've ever come across are not like that at all.

Like Sam Harris with added paraphernalia?

[Red Beret]

In terms of militarism, if the Greens want to become an accepted mainstream party with a decent chunk of MPs they will ultimately have to accept the need for a strong military policy.  The way that is done is through the voters and the party's members.  That means it is up to the likes of us to influence and adjust the Greens' policy on this and other matters, such as nuclear power.

In regards the twitter, it should be pointed out to the person in question that our young people join the military for a CAREER, and that not everybody who joins becomes a solider, fighter pilot etc.  Extremists like those of ISIS join up because they want to impose a radical way of life on those around them, and to kill anybody who opposes that.

[zebenzui]

In regards the twitter, it should be pointed out to the person in question that our young people join the military for a CAREER, and that not everybody who joins becomes a solider, fighter pilot etc.  Extremists like those of ISIS join up because they want to impose a radical way of life on those around them, and to kill anybody who opposes that.

I'm not sure that's inherently better. 

[GREGtheRED]

I'm not sure that's inherently better. 

Well, considering IS have terrorised, tortured, enslaved, beaten, and executed tens of thousands of men, women and children in Iraq and Syria (and hundreds of "British" Muslims have joined the group knowing exactly what they stand for and how they operate) I think your opinions are so far wide of the mark that they are almost laughable.

Men and women join the military to challenge themselves, to make a difference and to protect our nation, our values, our interests and our people. They also do a shit load of good around the world helping vulnerable people in need, case in point being the joint service efforts to help Ebola victims in Sierra Leone right now .If the British Armed Forces engaged in mass shootings of captured enemy combatants, the beheading of foreign journalists and aid workers because they do not believe in the right god, and the forced marriage of little girls because there is nobody left to defend them, then I seriously doubt the brave young men and women of the UK would enlist and serve.

It is actually quite frightening that the opinion you have expressed is so prevalent in our society. Just last night on QT there was a fat lad who suggested that the British government's foreign policy is responsible for "British" Muslims joining IS because they are, to quote, "disenchanted". That kind of casual rationalization for the decision to join a terrorist organisation in order to commit repulsive, barbaric acts against fellow humans in the name of religion is horrific and imo lads like that need closely watching by the government.

[Redman0151]

Well, considering IS have terrorised, tortured, enslaved, beaten, and executed tens of thousands of men, women and children in Iraq and Syria (and hundreds of "British" Muslims have joined the group knowing exactly what they stand for and how they operate) I think your opinions are so far wide of the mark that they are almost laughable.

Men and women join the military to challenge themselves, to make a difference and to protect our nation, our values, our interests and our people. They also do a shit load of good around the world helping vulnerable people in need, case in point being the joint service efforts to help Ebola victims in Sierra Leone right now .If the British Armed Forces engaged in mass shootings of captured enemy combatants, the beheading of foreign journalists and aid workers because they do not believe in the right god, and the forced marriage of little girls because there is nobody left to defend them, then I seriously doubt the brave young men and women of the UK would enlist and serve.

It is actually quite frightening that the opinion you have expressed is so prevalent in our society. Just last night on QT there was a fat lad who suggested that the British government's foreign policy is responsible for "British" Muslims joining IS because they are, to quote, "disenchanted". That kind of casual rationalization for the decision to join a terrorist organisation in order to commit repulsive, barbaric acts against fellow humans in the name of religion is horrific and imo lads like that need closely watching by the government.

A large issue is (particularly the American) media and government spreading constant propaganda about how noble and heroic joining the army is. Some causes are valid such as a potential fight against North Korea or ISIS, but going over there to fight an oil war for the government is not, how many of these extremists stem from western intervention causing issues over there?

[Hij]

Would be good to take the soldier stuff out of this thread and into a new one. Weren't the lads who originally flew to Syria labelled as freedom fighters by the press in the first instance though by the by? Can't really blame the troops we have, they just take the orders from up above but to dismiss the foreign policy argument is also a little naive. Don't these young lads watch our country consistently fly out to middle eastern countries and bomb the fuck out of them, often killing civilians.  Certainly it shouldn't be enough for these lads to join terrorist organisations, but I don't think it's as simple as them just leaving the country to join ISIS as it is about them wanting to help out their 'brothers' in Syria and then being radicalised over time. To completely ignore why we might have disillusioned young muslims in our country would be a dereliction of duty.

To come back to the original subject, I'll be voting Greens. Labour came third here last year and I want to put my support behind a left leaning party in the hope that it makes people think that moving to the left is still an option.

[zebenzui]

Well, considering IS have terrorised, tortured, enslaved, beaten, and executed tens of thousands of men, women and children in Iraq and Syria (and hundreds of "British" Muslims have joined the group knowing exactly what they stand for and how they operate) I think your opinions are so far wide of the mark that they are almost laughable.

It is actually quite frightening that the opinion you have expressed is so prevalent in our society. Just last night on QT there was a fat lad who suggested that the British government's foreign policy is responsible for "British" Muslims joining IS because they are, to quote, "disenchanted". That kind of casual rationalization for the decision to join a terrorist organisation in order to commit repulsive, barbaric acts against fellow humans in the name of religion is horrific and imo lads like that need closely watching by the government.

At no point have I actually ever defended ISIS. I just said I do not think joining an army as a career is inherently better than doing so for an ideal.

Also, it's disconcerting that you disregard the effect of our country and it's allies' operations in far flung places on helping extremist groups gather recruits. But I can't be fucked talking about ISIS anyway, especially when the terms and framework of the discussion is quite firmly established already.

Men and women join the military to challenge themselves, to make a difference and to protect our nation, our values, our interests and our people.

They voluntarily enter a career that carries an explicit risk of killing people without choice or discretion to challenge themselves? I didn't go as far as outright calling them c*nts, like you've just (inadvertently, I presume) done.

At what point in our lifetime have the British armed forces ventured to protect our values or our people? Or sprung to defence of an invasion from without.

If the British Armed Forces engaged in mass shootings of captured enemy combatants, the beheading of foreign journalists and aid workers because they do not believe in the right god, and the forced marriage of little girls because there is nobody left to defend them, then I seriously doubt the brave young men and women of the UK would enlist and serve.

Is that the threshold? Because if bombing civilians and the employ of drone strikes and illegal wars aren't enough to dissuade recruits, then I'm not sure this purported moral standard is anything to boast of.

It is actually quite frightening that the opinion you have expressed is so prevalent in our society.

What's frightening? The opinion that war is a terrible evil, and that we should not revere those who voluntarily pursue it?

Gods forbid we should live in peace 

[Crosby Nick]

I'm about the same place on the scale as Nelson Mandela and the Dalai Lama. Why am i not so revered?

[just Riggins?]

Saw a graph on Twitter today of that site where you see what party you should vote for, Greens were the majority at 24%, Labour at 21%, Ukip at 12ish and the Tories around 10.  Absolutely staggering that.  There's such an immense lack of political awareness in this country, people are voting for UKIP as a protest vote when infact the Greens are the protest vote they want/need.

Yesterday Boris came to my Uni to do a talk and the response was staggering.  People were falling over themselves to get a photo/selfie with him like he's George Clooney.  Barely any of them gave a shit about what him and his party have done to us (students/youth) and I'd say if it came round to it and they thought "who should I vote for", they'd think oh Boris is a top lad and vote Tory.  The entire thing was reallly, really depressing.  Even a lad I know on my course who's an ardent Green apparently was tweeting stuff like "can't wait to meet Boris #toplad", just grim.  That's what we've got to get across and it's not helped by the likes of the BBC giving UKIP this type of platform compared to the Greens.

I heard Caroline Lucas presented herself very well last night on QT, didn't get a chance to watch but that's good.

[GREGtheRED]

They voluntarily enter a career that carries an explicit risk of killing people without choice or discretion to challenge themselves? I didn't go as far as outright calling them c*nts, like you've just (inadvertently, I presume) done.

You know quite well that is not what I was saying, and is in fact the polar opposite of the point I was making.

Don't be afraid to say it yourself though mate if it's how you truly feel about the men and women in our military. You would be calling  a good number of members on this board c*nts though I expect.

[God's Left Peg]

I sit somewhere between the Dalai Lama and Gandhi on that grid.

Which is nice.

Would love to have seen where Bill Shankly sat on there - now that would be interesting.

[zebenzui]

You know quite well that is not what I was saying, and is in fact the polar opposite of the point I was making.

You did literally say it. I am struggling to fathom how you can claim to have asserted something the "polar opposite" of that.

Don't be afraid to say it yourself though mate if it's how you truly feel about the men and women in our military. You would be calling  a good number of members on this board c*nts though I expect.

I cast dispersions on the reasons you provide for people joining the military. Not on the people themselves (though that would depend on what they did during their service).

In all earnestness, this:

Men and women join the military to challenge themselves, to make a difference and to protect our nation, our values, our interests and our people.

is exactly what I mean when I question the reverence some have towards the military, and whitewashing of such a brutal occupation.

[John C]

I have great sympathy with so many Green causes but the problem I would have voting for them in a General Election stems from the horror I would feel if, in some bizarre twist of fate, they gained a degree of genuine influence in parliament. I think they would be hopelessly inadequate when forceful, decisive leadership in our nation's interest was needed on issues security, international affairs etc. Quite simply I think our international rivals would walk all over a government comprising the Greens and another in coalition.

Could Ed Miliband be your robust alternative than mate?

[John C]

Unfortunately, this is my one true fear for the Greens party. The fear that it'll get hijacked by the sort of people that work in Greenpeace and believe me in my few interactions with people of that ilk, I've come to realise they are as loony as those on the right. And what's worse, some of them tend to be 'spiritual' and deeply in love with Asian mysticism. Luckily, most Greens supporters I've ever come across are not like that at all.

Greenpeace are in disarray mate, it was only 2 weeks ago that their founder was interviewed on Radio 4 denouncing their current strategy, particularly about humanitarianism.
But lets not derail the thread at all

[John C]

The disillusionment and anger in Spain has sparked a remarkable fire in Spanish politics and while many in the UK long for change, the people of Spain are making it happen.

The Podemos party were only formed in January of this year and their first pledge was to bring an end to the elitism, cronyism and corruption of the established ‘Caste’ of Spanish politics. Led by a university professor called Pablo Iglesias and a bunch of like-minded school teachers, intellectuals and scientists, they have gone from nowhere to second in the opinion polls and are now just 2% behind the governing PP party.

They have sworn to repair broken Spain and end the 30 dominance of the two main parties, the PSOE and the PP. They will take money back from the elite and spend it on the working class people. They already have 5 MEP’s despite only being formed nine months ago.

That's music to my ears mate, its like the simplistic brilliance of Beethovens 6th Symphony. Ironically discussed on a forum which the discusee's earn in excess of one persons wage a year in a week.

Your point stands though and I'd love recent voting events to transform the political spectrum across Europe.
Obscenity<politicians.

[Mutton Geoff]

just took that test i am perfect for the Green Party and that's good because as i got older the more i have veered towards the Green Party values and the aims of many environmental protest groups.

[alfonso]

Men and women join the military to challenge themselves, to make a difference and to protect our nation, our values, our interests and our people. They also do a shit load of good around the world helping vulnerable people in need, case in point being the joint service efforts to help Ebola victims in Sierra Leone right now .If the British Armed Forces engaged in mass shootings of captured enemy combatants, the beheading of foreign journalists and aid workers because they do not believe in the right god, and the forced marriage of little girls because there is nobody left to defend them, then I seriously doubt the brave young men and women of the UK would enlist and serve.

I think you will find a fair number sign up because they have fuck all else going for them. From a poor neighbourhood with no prospects comes an opportunity to make some cash and travel. Oh, you have a load of new mates to hang out with and those computer games you were playing growing up - you'll do it for real this time.
But they will get a shock when they see how it really is and that the chance of suicide goes up considerably afterwards.

[Zeb]

My constituency MP (Labour) has been superb on a few things really close to my heart so I'll be voting for him. But without that, I'd vote Green. I remember the thread where a fair few of us did the political test and a huge chunk of us ended up somewhere in the bottom left of it, frequently somewhere around the middle of it.

[Red Genius]

Seems the majority of us are all in a pretty similar region on that graph.

[stewil007]

Interesting on the Vote for Policies website, i've always seen myself as Labour and until recently voted Labour except for the last council elections where I went green.  As i'm getting older, i'm finding i'm moving away from my parents leanings and looking more into the people and policies behind the parties.

I wasn't that surprised that i came out with a majority Green (4/9) but i was surprised that i had Tory(2/9) Lib Dem (2/9) and Labour only 1/9).

[brownie 09]

voted green in my local elections to.

[HarryLabrador]

Just did the test and I'm green:

political compass

Economic Left/Right: -7.62
 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.26

[Bunter]

I'm also aligned with the Greens according to that questionnaire, although a similar survey on the ISideWith website has me aligned equally with LibDems & Labour.

With all the people in here in sympathizing and alleging they'll vote Greens, do you believe they could ever form a strong and coherent government, or are they doomed to be ridiculed like the LibDems as an insignificance?

[brownie 09]

Probably doomed as people will carry on voting for labour to attempt to stop the Tories instead of voting for the party who best promotes their views.

[Bird Bird Bird The Bird Is The Word]

I like the Greens, they're the party I'm most aligned with, but I don't like their stance on nuclear power, as they're completely opposed to it and unwilling to include it in their energy mix. Is it fair to exclude nuclear power?

[nick_8589]

I like the Greens, they're the party I'm most aligned with, but I don't like their stance on nuclear power, as they're completely opposed to it and unwilling to include it in their energy mix. Is it fair to exclude nuclear power?

Depends what their proposing as an alternative ? Plus with the greens the policies are decided by member votes so it could in theory be changed

[The Real Rasta]