Author Topic: Bitcoin and Cryptocurrency  (Read 199176 times)

Offline Alan_X

  • WUM. 'twatito' - The Cat Herding Firm But Fair Voice Of Reason (Except when he's got a plank up his arse). Gimme some skin, priest! Has a general dislike for Elijah Wood. Clearly cannot fill even a thong! RAWK Resident Muppet. Has a crush o
  • RAWK Staff
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 53,360
  • Come on you fucking red men!!!
  • Super Title: This is super!
Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #120 on: December 20, 2013, 10:13:06 am »
It's the future...The financial establishment are worried

Total Bitcoins -        12,150,825
Market Cap -    $8,498,408,513

UK GDP -   $2,445,410,000,000
US GDP - $14,991,300,000,000

Gross World product - $71,830,000,000,000 (2012 est)

They are shitting themselves...
Sid Lowe (@sidlowe)
09/03/2011 08:04
Give a man a mask and he will tell the truth, Give a man a user name and he will act like a total twat.
Its all about winning shiny things.

Offline Barney_Rubble

  • #
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 31,841
Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #121 on: December 20, 2013, 01:03:07 pm »
The fluctuations in value are ridiculous. 1100 one day, 450 the next.

It's a Ponzi scheme. Give it a wide berth.

87:13

Offline muyuu

  • Google Groomer. reddit remain campaigner.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,544
  • I love Rafa - fact
Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #122 on: December 21, 2013, 10:18:04 pm »
Unstable != ponzi.

Most disruptive tech starts off unstable. Like the dot com era was for the internet. Doesn't mean there was no real business in the internet.

May or may not fulfill its promise, but if you don't use it like a speculative vehicle that shouldn't affect you. If you're scared of the fluctuations, use it merely as a private means of exchange, for things like paying online for privacy-sensitive stuff (VPN to bypass the great Cameron wall about to come, etc). It has strong niches. I would rather, for instance, never give Google my CC info with all my personal data to buy stuff through Google Play. They have enough info about me.
"Chelsea have confirmed that their interim fans will leave the club when Roman Abramovich does"
-sinnermichael

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=303961.msg11432382#msg11432382

Offline Lenin.

  • Rita out.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 9,922
  • "We All Shine On"
Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #123 on: December 21, 2013, 10:38:07 pm »
The fluctuations in value are ridiculous. 1100 one day, 450 the next.

It's a Ponzi scheme. Give it a wide berth.


*puts fur coat on, lights cigar with 100 bitcoin note, laughs nonchantly at rawk ecomomists advice.*
Oh you English are SO superior aren't you? Well, would you like to know where you'd be without US the good old U.S. of A. to protect you? I'll tell you. The smallest fucking province in the Russian Empire, that's where! If it wasn't for us, you'd all be speaking German, singing, "Deutschland, Deutschland Uber Alles!"

Offline Barney_Rubble

  • #
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 31,841
Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #124 on: December 22, 2013, 12:43:54 am »
And it sure as hell ain't private.


Bitcoins: The Second Biggest Ponzi Scheme in History

Gary North - November 29, 2013

I hereby make a prediction: Bitcoins will go down in history as the most spectacular private Ponzi scheme in history. It will dwarf anything dreamed of by Bernard Madoff. (It will never rival Social Security, however.)

To explain my position, I must do two things. First, I will describe the economics of every Ponzi scheme. Second, I will explain the Austrian school of economics' theory of the origin of money. My analysis is strictly economic. As far as I know, it is a legal scheme -- and should be.

PONZI ECONOMICS

First, someone who no one has ever heard of before announces that he has discovered a way to make money. In the case of Bitcoins, the claim is literal. The creator literally made what he says is money, or will be money. He made this money out of digits. He made it out of nothing. Think "Federal Reserve wanna-be."

Second, the individual claims that a particular market provides unexploited arbitrage opportunities. Something is selling too low. If you buy into the program now, the person running the scheme will be able to sell it high on your behalf. So, you will take advantage of the arbitrage opportunity.

Today, with high-speed trading, arbitrage opportunities last only for a few milliseconds seconds in widely traded markets. Arbitrage opportunities in the commodity futures market last for very short periods. But in the most leveraged and sophisticated of all the futures markets, namely, the currency futures markets, arbitrage opportunities last for so brief a period of time that only high-speed computer programs can take advantage of them.

The individual who sells the Ponzi scheme makes money by siphoning off a large share of the money coming in. In other words, he does not make the investment. But Bitcoins are unique. The money was siphoned off from the beginning. Somebody owned a good percentage of the original digits. Then, by telling his story, this individual created demand for all of the digits. The dollar-value of his share of the Bitcoins appreciates with the other digits.

This strategy was described a generation ago by George Goodman, who wrote under the pseudonym of Adam Smith. You can find it in his book, Supermoney. This is done with financial corporations when individuals create a new business, retain a large share of the shares, and then sell the stock to the public. In this sense, Bitcoins is not a Ponzi scheme. It is simply a supermoney scheme.

The Ponzi aspect of it comes when we look at the justification for Bitcoins. They were sold on the basis that Bitcoins will be an alternative currency. In other words, this will be the money of the future.

The coins will never be the money of the future. This is my main argument.

THE AUSTRIAN SCHOOL'S THEORY OF MONEY'S ORIGINS

The best definition of money was first offered by Austrian economist Carl Menger in 1892. He said that money is the most marketable commodity. This definition was picked up by his disciple, Ludwig von Mises, who presented it in his book, The Theory of Money and Credit, published in 1912.

In that book, Mises argued, as Menger had before him, that money arises out of market transactions. That which did not function as money before, now functions as money. Something that was valuable for its own sake, most likely gold or silver, becomes valuable for another purpose, namely, the facilitation of exchange. People move from barter to a monetary economy. This increases the division of labor. As more and more people use the money commodity in order to facilitate exchanges, the division of labor extends, and as a result, people's productivity increases. They can specialize. This specialization produces increased output per person, and therefore increased income per person.

In this scenario, something that had independent value becomes the focus of traders, who find that their ability to buy and sell increases as a result of the use of this commodity. Money develops out of market exchanges. Money was not used for its own sake initially, but it becomes widely used as money as a result of innumerable transactions within the economy. (I discuss this in my chapter in Theory of Money and Fiduciary Media, published by the Mises Institute in 2012.)

Here is the central fact of money. Money is the product of the market process. It arises out of an unplanned, decentralized process. This takes time. It takes a lot of time. It spreads slowly, as new people discover it as a tool of production, because it increases the size of the market for all goods and services. No one says, "I think I'll invent a new form of money."

Note: any time you see a proposal of a new form of money, hold on to your old form of money.

The central benefit of money is its predictable purchasing power. A monetary commodity is not easy to produce. The cost of mining is high. Money is slowly adopted by a large number of participants. These participants use money as a means of exchange. Why? Because it was valuable the day before. They therefore expect it to be valuable the next day. Money has continuity of value. This is not intrinsic value. It is historic value. So, a person can buy money by the sale of goods or services, set this money aside, and re-enter the markets in a different location or in a different time, in the confidence that he will probably be able to buy a similar quantity of goods and services.

Money is not accumulated for its own sake. It is accumulated to buy future goods and services. It is useful in the facilitation of exchange precisely because its market value varies little over time. It is the predictability of money's market exchange rate that makes it money.

BITCOINS ARE NOT MONEY

Now let us look at bitcoins. The market value of one bitcoin has gone from about $2 to $1,000 in a year. This is not money. This commodity is not being bought for its services as money. It is unpredictable to a fault.

Admittedly, those who got in early on this Ponzi scheme are doing very well. They will probably continue to do well for a time. As more people hear about this investment, which is justified in terms of its future potential as money, more people will buy it. Late-comers are not buying it because they understand its potential as future money, any more than the late investors in Charles Ponzi's scheme thought they were buying into the arbitrage potential of foreign postage stamps. They are buying Bitcoins because we are in the midst of a Ponzi scheme mania. They will continue to buy because they think this time it's different.

This digital so-called money will not be used to facilitate exchange. Nobody is going to be getting rid of an asset that has moved from $2 to $1,000 in one year in order to buy pizzas. People want to hang onto it, refusing to sell, in the hopes that it will go to $2,000. This is the classic mark of Ponzi scheme psychology. People do not buy the investment for the benefits that the investment provides as an investment, in other words, because it is a capital asset. They buy it only because it has gone up in price. They expect this to continue.

Here is the Austrian school's theory of money. People buy money because it has not fallen in price. But it has also not gone up in price much, either. It is predictable. Why? Because it is held in reserve by a large number of people over a large geographical area. It has become money through tradition, through experience, and through endless numbers of exchanges on a voluntary basis. It has proven itself in the marketplace as a means of facilitating exchange, and thereby as a means of preserving value over time. This is not the characteristic feature of a Bitcoin. People are not buying it to serve as money; they are buying it because they are in the midst of a mania, and they are gambling that the number of buyers will continue upward forever.

Here is an economic fact: the number of fools is limited. They are a scarce economic resource. As the price of bitcoins rises, more fools will be lured into the market. But this is a finite market.

In other words, bitcoins cannot possibly fulfill their supposed purpose: to serve as an unregulated currency unit. Bitcoins are not an alternative currency. They are something you buy in the midst of a mania, and you will sell at some point in order to get back your money. You are thinking of buying Bitcoins, not because Bitcoins will serve as a means of exchange, as originally argued, but because you want to get back lots more money than you paid for them. In other words, Bitcoins are not money; dollars are money. There has been no challenge from Bitcoins to the reign of the dollar.

JUST SAY NO

When you see an offer of an investment which inherently cannot possibly exist on its own merit, and yet lots of people are coming into the market to buy the item, you know, without any question, that this is a Ponzi scheme. In other words, people are buying into the program, not because of an arbitrage opportunity, and not because of a capital breakthrough in terms of technology, but because somebody else bought it cheaper yesterday. You buy it today, not because you think it is going to offer a stable value, but because you think you're going to make a bundle of money when more people come into the market. Again, this is the classic mark of a Ponzi scheme.

In order for Bitcoins to become an alternative currency, there will have to be millions of users of the currency. There will have to be tens of millions of users of the currency. They will have to develop in a market on their merit as money, not as an investment of dollars in order to get more dollars back. It would have to develop through exchange, not bought as an investment. In other words, the free market will have to adopt Bitcoins as a means of increasing the division of labor.

Bitcoins are not increasing the division of labor. They are bought on the basis that somebody can get into a game of musical chairs. Instead of running out of chairs, leaving one person the great winter, the promoters started with a given number of chairs, and then they hoped that lots would come and bid on the chairs. "If we issue it, they will come." This took place. The promoters creators are now very rich, as measured in dollars.

The fact of the matter is this: Bitcoins will not increase the division of labor by serving as an alternative currency. Inherently, Bitcoins have made their mark, not on the basis of their stable value in exchange, that is, their value in increasing the division of labor in alternative markets that do not use the dollar. On the contrary, Bitcoins are being purchased for one reason only: to get in on the deal. Buy low; sell high. Buy with what? Dollars. Sell for what? Dollars.

The mania has destroyed Bitcoins' use as money. Bitcoins are too volatile in price ever to serve as a currency.

Which is money: dollars or Bitcoins? The answer is obvious: dollars.

This is a Ponzi scheme.

WHAT GOES UP COMES DOWN

This will lead to the ruination of more people than any private Ponzi scheme in history. There will be the poor schnooks to get in at the end, paying perhaps thousands of dollars per Bitcoin. Then the market will unravel. It will unravel for the same reason that all Ponzi schemes have unraveled: not enough new buyers. When the new buyers do not show up in great numbers, the holders will start to dump them. What went up in price, as measured in dollars, the real money, will come down in price.

This mania is going to be the stuff of best-selling books. This is going to be this stuff of Ph.D. dissertations in economics and psychology. This is going to be the equivalent of Mackay's book, Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds.

The interesting thing is the mania started among the most technologically sophisticated people on earth: computer techies. The techies who got in early are going to be fabulously wealthy . . . if they sell. But the poor schnooks who come in at the and are going to lose money. Collectively, this will be the greatest single scheme for lots of people losing money that we have ever seen. This Ponzi scheme is not illegal . . . yet. It will spread. It has gone viral.

Any time you buy an investment, you had better have an exit strategy. There is no exit strategy for Bitcoins.

You must get out at the top, or you lose your shirt.

CONCLUSION

Anytime that anybody tries to sell you an investment, you have to look at it on this basis: "What are the future benefits that this investment will give final consumers?" In other words, how does it serve the final consumer? If it does not serve the final consumer, then it is a Ponzi scheme.

Bitcoins cannot serve the consumer. There is nothing to consume. The only way that Bitcoins can work to the advantage of the consumer is that they provides the consumer with increased opportunities, based on Bitcoins' function as money. But the fundamental characteristic of money is its relatively stable purchasing power.

Bitcoins will never achieve this. It is a mania going up. It will be a mania coming down. It will not increase the division of labor, because people will recognize it as having been a Ponzi scheme, and they will not again buy it. They will not use it in exchange. Companies will not sell goods and services based on Bitcoins. Bitcoins have to have stable purchasing power if they are to serve as money, and they will never, ever achieve stable purchasing power.

Whenever somebody tries to sell you an investment that is based on the economic analysis of a market -- an analysis that cannot possibly be true -- do not buy the investment. This is a simple rule. I adhere to this rule.

There has to be an economic justification for a capital investment, and there is no economic justification of buying Bitcoins as an alternative currency. That was how Bitcoins were initially sold, and it was impossible as an economic concept from the beginning. The Austrian theory of money shows why.

I do not invest in capital that has no economic justification other than the greater fool theory. There are too few fools to keep the scheme going.

Bitcoins are not illegal. They should not be made illegal. They should merely be avoided.


http://www.garynorth.com/public/11828.cfm

87:13

Offline Barney_Rubble

  • #
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 31,841
Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #125 on: December 22, 2013, 12:48:13 am »
Bitcoins are not money; dollars are money

This bit is untrue. Dollars aren't really money either. Dollars are currency, and a means of exchange. Money is a store of value, currency certainly is not. Gold is money, is a store of value.

If, say 100 years ago you had $200. You could either keep the $200 cash in a safe or buy $200 of gold, (roughly $19/oz in 1913) about 10oz, and put that in the safe instead.

Now yesterday your grandchild discovered the safe and opened it. They would either have $200 in cash or 10oz of gold, which is currently $1200/oz = $12,000. That's the store of value in gold. The dollar is now worth about 5% of it's 1913 value. Soon it will be %0

87:13

Offline Alan_X

  • WUM. 'twatito' - The Cat Herding Firm But Fair Voice Of Reason (Except when he's got a plank up his arse). Gimme some skin, priest! Has a general dislike for Elijah Wood. Clearly cannot fill even a thong! RAWK Resident Muppet. Has a crush o
  • RAWK Staff
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 53,360
  • Come on you fucking red men!!!
  • Super Title: This is super!
Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #126 on: December 22, 2013, 07:25:11 am »
I'm not a big fan of Mises and I don't agree with everything in there but the fundamental argument is sound.

While bitcoins are increasing in value you would be mad to actually use them as a means of exchange.

For example: say a bitcoin is worth £500 (it doesn't matter because it will be worth something different tomorrow). You have £1,000 in the bank and 2 bitcoins in your wallet. You buy something worth £250 - do you pay with your pounds or your bitcoins? Assuming a 20% increase in the exchange rate of bitcoins each quarter what's your financial situation 3 months on?

Pay with pound and you have £750 in the bank, goods worth £250 and your bitcoin stash which is now worth £1,200. Total £2,200

Pay with bitcoin and you have £1000 in the bank, goods worth £250 and your bitcoin stash is now worth £900. Total £2,150.

And the seller is pissing himself all the way to a the bank. Not only has he made his normal profit on the sale but three months on he's got a bonus of £50 from the increase in bitcoin value.

You'd have to be a complete idiot to use bitcoins to buy things while they are being bought as an investment.

There are 8 billion dollars worth of this stuff out there based on absolutely nothing but goodwill. It may stabilise at some point and become a minor alternative means of exchange but because most apear to be in it as an investment, the likelihood is that it will crash at some point and the bubble will burst.
Sid Lowe (@sidlowe)
09/03/2011 08:04
Give a man a mask and he will tell the truth, Give a man a user name and he will act like a total twat.
Its all about winning shiny things.

Offline Azi

  • eckerslike
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,715
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #127 on: December 22, 2013, 10:26:16 pm »
been following bitcoin on Reddit for the last few months and since the price dropped like a stone its scary how much folk have lost, so much so that the mods made a post giving folk help who were contemplating suicide after loosing so much money as someone looking on the outside in eg (have no involvement in bitcoin ). its scary  theirs folk on reddit who have sold all their lifesaving for bitcoins and are now essentially broke do they cut their losses and sell them all losing $50k or do they hold tight and battle the storm in the hope that it recovers, but then you see the other side folk who are set for life two posters bought 1ks worth, When it was worth pennies now their debt free made all their money back and only have the money they made of bitcoins invested in it

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1t5ofu/please_sticky_usa_suicide_hotline_1800273talk/
« Last Edit: December 22, 2013, 10:31:59 pm by ChristmAzi »

Offline Ronster

  • A Real Man who doesn't like Girlies
  • Anny Roader
  • ****
  • Posts: 392
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #128 on: December 22, 2013, 11:26:36 pm »
been following bitcoin on Reddit for the last few months and since the price dropped like a stone its scary how much folk have lost, so much so that the mods made a post giving folk help who were contemplating suicide after loosing so much money as someone looking on the outside in eg (have no involvement in bitcoin ). its scary  theirs folk on reddit who have sold all their lifesaving for bitcoins and are now essentially broke do they cut their losses and sell them all losing $50k or do they hold tight and battle the storm in the hope that it recovers, but then you see the other side folk who are set for life two posters bought 1ks worth, When it was worth pennies now their debt free made all their money back and only have the money they made of bitcoins invested in it

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1t5ofu/please_sticky_usa_suicide_hotline_1800273talk/

Bitcoin? Shut it down before one of us buys this shit. This is a capitalist attack on the working man who likes a flutter. Lock it up.
'When circumstances can not be changed attitude is everything'

Offline Alan_X

  • WUM. 'twatito' - The Cat Herding Firm But Fair Voice Of Reason (Except when he's got a plank up his arse). Gimme some skin, priest! Has a general dislike for Elijah Wood. Clearly cannot fill even a thong! RAWK Resident Muppet. Has a crush o
  • RAWK Staff
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 53,360
  • Come on you fucking red men!!!
  • Super Title: This is super!
Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #129 on: December 23, 2013, 07:01:43 am »
remeber this:

We've had a chat in the staff room. As long as this is about the philosophy and technology behind Bitcoin we're happy to host the discussion. If it degenerates into an Amway style get rich quick discussion we'll fuck it off sharpish.

Carry on.

In light of the story about the bitcoin suicide line, would anyone like to make the case that bit-coin is anything other than an investment bubble. The bollocks about non-fiat currency and all that other shite just looks like PR to encourage the gullible to invest in a get rich quick scheme.
Sid Lowe (@sidlowe)
09/03/2011 08:04
Give a man a mask and he will tell the truth, Give a man a user name and he will act like a total twat.
Its all about winning shiny things.

Offline Niru Red4ever

  • Spoiler spoiler
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,877
Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #130 on: December 23, 2013, 07:45:52 am »
remeber this:

In light of the story about the bitcoin suicide line, would anyone like to make the case that bit-coin is anything other than an investment bubble. The bollocks about non-fiat currency and all that other shite just looks like PR to encourage the gullible to invest in a get rich quick scheme.
It is a bubble right now. Doesn't take away the technological innovation in it.

Regarding potential suicides and losing everything. I may be may making a sweeping generalisation but I doubt most of those invested because they believe in the technological marvel. They saw something rising quickly, jumped in hoping to jump out soon with a quick profit. I don't have much sympathy for those. They essentially tried gambling and lost.

Bitcoin, or indeed any other cryptocurrency, has a long way to go, if ever. At this stage, yes its a bubble, but thats the fault of free market. The bubble will burst and grow again and keep doing that before it matures.

Regarding quick rich scheme, the creator doesn't seem to have touched the Bitcoins he mined. Those are still untouched in the original mined addresses.
Would love the 19th more and more trophies; but would love even more to see a fan owned LFC.

Offline Kashinoda

  • More broken biscuits than made of crisps
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 15,912
  • ....mmm
Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #131 on: December 23, 2013, 08:47:21 am »
There have only been two periods where Bitcoin wasn't stable enough to use for transactions. That was the boom that happened in around April time and the recent boom due to the US government announcements. Other than that the currency has never really fluctuated enough for it to be problematic with trading.



:D

Offline muyuu

  • Google Groomer. reddit remain campaigner.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,544
  • I love Rafa - fact
Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #132 on: December 23, 2013, 03:15:25 pm »
I'm not a big fan of Mises and I don't agree with everything in there but the fundamental argument is sound.

While bitcoins are increasing in value you would be mad to actually use them as a means of exchange.

As long as there are liquid markets, this is nonsense.

You can pay anonymously (1-on-1 anonymously) to a vendor, and immediately rebuy the same amount at the same price. There's a number of different  means to do this.

It only plays a factor to people with no direct access to the markets.
"Chelsea have confirmed that their interim fans will leave the club when Roman Abramovich does"
-sinnermichael

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=303961.msg11432382#msg11432382

Offline Alan_X

  • WUM. 'twatito' - The Cat Herding Firm But Fair Voice Of Reason (Except when he's got a plank up his arse). Gimme some skin, priest! Has a general dislike for Elijah Wood. Clearly cannot fill even a thong! RAWK Resident Muppet. Has a crush o
  • RAWK Staff
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 53,360
  • Come on you fucking red men!!!
  • Super Title: This is super!
Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #133 on: December 23, 2013, 03:29:13 pm »
As long as there are liquid markets, this is nonsense.

You can pay anonymously (1-on-1 anonymously) to a vendor, and immediately rebuy the same amount at the same price. There's a number of different  means to do this.

It only plays a factor to people with no direct access to the markets.

So it's not a currency - you're just using bitcoins as an anonymous pay-as-you-go debit card. As I said, for most people it's a complete irrelevance.
Sid Lowe (@sidlowe)
09/03/2011 08:04
Give a man a mask and he will tell the truth, Give a man a user name and he will act like a total twat.
Its all about winning shiny things.

Offline Alan_X

  • WUM. 'twatito' - The Cat Herding Firm But Fair Voice Of Reason (Except when he's got a plank up his arse). Gimme some skin, priest! Has a general dislike for Elijah Wood. Clearly cannot fill even a thong! RAWK Resident Muppet. Has a crush o
  • RAWK Staff
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 53,360
  • Come on you fucking red men!!!
  • Super Title: This is super!
Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #134 on: December 23, 2013, 03:36:04 pm »
There have only been two periods where Bitcoin wasn't stable enough to use for transactions. That was the boom that happened in around April time and the recent boom due to the US government announcements. Other than that the currency has never really fluctuated enough for it to be problematic with trading.

So if it remains stable around £550ish and there are a limited number if bit coins, the total Bitcoin value will be restricted to a minute value of Gross World Product?

Seems like a Catch-22 - No point investing in it if the price remains stable but unless the price remains stable it's useless as a currency. And if the price remains stable it will be restricted to a niche currency for uber-geeks and criminals.

I thought Bitcoin was going to change the world and bring down the financial system?
Sid Lowe (@sidlowe)
09/03/2011 08:04
Give a man a mask and he will tell the truth, Give a man a user name and he will act like a total twat.
Its all about winning shiny things.

Offline fredfrop

  • 19*
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,751
Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #135 on: December 23, 2013, 06:35:21 pm »
I know it's not the fault of bitcoin,  but it's hard not to be slightly annoyed that the bastards behind cryptolocker can use it for simple anonymous transactions.
* * * * *

Offline danwms

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,334
  • Walking through the storm.
    • Last FM
Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #136 on: January 6, 2014, 04:50:03 pm »
Back up now.

Offline robgreen91

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,365
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #137 on: January 6, 2014, 10:59:10 pm »
but it doesn't exist? you dont own anything? it is nothing? you do not have a lump of gold in your hand? they are being magicked out of thin air? where does it come from?

some geek, has just gone ' i know, im gonna make this currency, make it really hard to get hold of, make a finite amount of it. just enough so it lasts so everyone goes mad over it. im gonna hold loads of them and then im gonna sell them all just before the last one is "mined" and become a billionaire."

i almost guarantee when the last "bitcoin" is "mined", there will be a message that come up on the screen... haha i cant believe you all fell for it, this is all completely worthless...



i cannot get my head around it?? am i the thick one???  :o
« Last Edit: January 6, 2014, 11:02:16 pm by robgreen91 »

Offline rednich85

  • Gargantuan Wanker. Intimately linked to Keys and Gray.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 17,631
  • Stay Black. That's the most important thing.
Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #138 on: January 6, 2014, 11:01:52 pm »
for most people it's a complete irrelevance.

I remember this being the case about the internet.
"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons."

@rednich85

Offline Alan_X

  • WUM. 'twatito' - The Cat Herding Firm But Fair Voice Of Reason (Except when he's got a plank up his arse). Gimme some skin, priest! Has a general dislike for Elijah Wood. Clearly cannot fill even a thong! RAWK Resident Muppet. Has a crush o
  • RAWK Staff
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 53,360
  • Come on you fucking red men!!!
  • Super Title: This is super!
Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #139 on: January 7, 2014, 06:14:51 am »
I remember this being the case about the internet.

Completely different. The internet created all kinds of new opportunities and new ways of accessing data and media. Take away the hype and the investment bubble and bitcoin is just a currency. Even if it became the world's currency, how would it change how I buy my groceries or buy movie tickets?
Sid Lowe (@sidlowe)
09/03/2011 08:04
Give a man a mask and he will tell the truth, Give a man a user name and he will act like a total twat.
Its all about winning shiny things.

Offline Zend...en the clowns

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,459
  • Likes BBQ sauce a bit too much..
Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #140 on: January 7, 2014, 11:54:53 am »
There's not a chance in hell that Bitcoin will be any sort of revolutionary currency that some are peddling it to be, ironically a storyline to hype and increase it's worth.

It's quite simple really, Bitcoin won't revolutionise financial markets because it's those financial markets, or the rules of engagement (buying and selling of capital for a market value) that it relies on so heavily to exist. It would be a contradiction of its own terms of existence.
He posts in the day, he posts in the niiiiiiggghht,
That Zend...en the clowns, his timings just right.

Offline Niru Red4ever

  • Spoiler spoiler
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,877
Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #141 on: January 8, 2014, 07:47:10 am »
i cannot get my head around it?? am i the thick one???  :o
Yes, you are. For starters, its open source.

From a technical standpoint its a very clever way how he (she? they?) solved the double spend problem which is the reason it can be used as a currency in a decentralized way.
Would love the 19th more and more trophies; but would love even more to see a fan owned LFC.

Offline Alan_X

  • WUM. 'twatito' - The Cat Herding Firm But Fair Voice Of Reason (Except when he's got a plank up his arse). Gimme some skin, priest! Has a general dislike for Elijah Wood. Clearly cannot fill even a thong! RAWK Resident Muppet. Has a crush o
  • RAWK Staff
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 53,360
  • Come on you fucking red men!!!
  • Super Title: This is super!
Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #142 on: January 8, 2014, 08:30:59 am »
Yes, you are. For starters, its open source.

From a technical standpoint its a very clever way how he (she? they?) solved the double spend problem which is the reason it can be used as a currency in a decentralized way.

Ahh... open source. That means it must be the bestest thing ever.
Sid Lowe (@sidlowe)
09/03/2011 08:04
Give a man a mask and he will tell the truth, Give a man a user name and he will act like a total twat.
Its all about winning shiny things.

Offline Niru Red4ever

  • Spoiler spoiler
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,877
Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #143 on: January 8, 2014, 09:08:40 am »
Ahh... open source. That means it must be the bestest thing ever.
I was confident you would bite ;D

I was replying to this
i almost guarantee when the last "bitcoin" is "mined", there will be a message that come up on the screen... haha i cant believe you all fell for it, this is all completely worthless...
Would love the 19th more and more trophies; but would love even more to see a fan owned LFC.

Offline muyuu

  • Google Groomer. reddit remain campaigner.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,544
  • I love Rafa - fact
Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #144 on: January 8, 2014, 10:34:41 am »
The commie rants are hard to hear above my BTC riches.

I wouldn't recommend it to anyone as a speculative vehicle. That's something one must research on his own. But as a pseudonimous payment vehicle it just works and it's getting widespread. In the Internet this fills an incredibly important void.
"Chelsea have confirmed that their interim fans will leave the club when Roman Abramovich does"
-sinnermichael

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=303961.msg11432382#msg11432382

Offline Jimmy Conway

  • Look at me, never rat on your friends and always keep your mouth shut
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,952
Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #145 on: January 8, 2014, 11:02:10 am »
I know a guy who made just over £400k on this, cashed in his BitCoins in late November and is in the process of buying a house with it. He has had to go see the NCA over it, to validate the funds are legal towards the purchase of the house (money laundering regs)

Offline muyuu

  • Google Groomer. reddit remain campaigner.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,544
  • I love Rafa - fact
Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #146 on: January 8, 2014, 11:11:22 am »
I know a guy who made just over £400k on this, cashed in his BitCoins in late November and is in the process of buying a house with it. He has had to go see the NCA over it, to validate the funds are legal towards the purchase of the house (money laundering regs)

I've made more than that. I haven't "cashed out" much though, just about the original investment and some ~£10K. Had no problems whatsoever.
"Chelsea have confirmed that their interim fans will leave the club when Roman Abramovich does"
-sinnermichael

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=303961.msg11432382#msg11432382

Offline Jimmy Conway

  • Look at me, never rat on your friends and always keep your mouth shut
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,952
Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #147 on: January 8, 2014, 11:18:14 am »
I've made more than that. I haven't "cashed out" much though, just about the original investment and some ~£10K. Had no problems whatsoever.

You've made over £400,000? Bloody hell.

Offline Niru Red4ever

  • Spoiler spoiler
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,877
Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #148 on: January 8, 2014, 12:12:38 pm »
Congrats, but lets refrain from talking value and keep this thread open.

We've had a chat in the staff room. As long as this is about the philosophy and technology behind Bitcoin we're happy to host the discussion. If it degenerates into an Amway style get rich quick discussion we'll fuck it off sharpish.

Carry on.
Would love the 19th more and more trophies; but would love even more to see a fan owned LFC.

Offline Niru Red4ever

  • Spoiler spoiler
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,877
Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #149 on: January 8, 2014, 12:20:42 pm »
The commie rants are hard to hear above my BTC riches.
These are the kind of attitudes which makes us feel like its a ponzi scheme (not in the strictest sense).

I like the technology and idea behind Bitcoin. I hate how it is just being used as a quick rich scheme by the early adopters/overnight millionaires. I don't have much sympathy for all those who lost money, though. They should know what they are getting into.
Would love the 19th more and more trophies; but would love even more to see a fan owned LFC.

Offline danwms

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,334
  • Walking through the storm.
    • Last FM
Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #150 on: January 9, 2014, 12:06:13 pm »
I have written a small application which automatically buys and sells as the price changes. It only makes small transactions of around 0.01 bTC so that I don;t lose everything but at the moment its increasing by a couple of points every day.

Not go the guts to unleash it on whole BTCs yet though.

Offline muyuu

  • Google Groomer. reddit remain campaigner.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,544
  • I love Rafa - fact
Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #151 on: January 10, 2014, 11:53:06 am »
These are the kind of attitudes which makes us feel like its a ponzi scheme (not in the strictest sense).

I like the technology and idea behind Bitcoin. I hate how it is just being used as a quick rich scheme by the early adopters/overnight millionaires. I don't have much sympathy for all those who lost money, though. They should know what they are getting into.


The attitudes are irrelevant for the tech behind and mostly irrelevant for the possibilities as well.

It's not a Ponzi scheme in any sense. Whoever believes that has no clue what a Ponzi scheme is. If anything it would be a pump-and-dump scheme.

It's not though, but there is a societal element to it that many early adopters will go into dishonest ways if necessary trying to pump value by any means, respectable or not. I don't condone that but it's not a problem with the protocol, it's a flaw of (some/most) people when greed takes over. House owners suffer from the same and that doesn't necessarily mean that housing is inherently evil or a scheme.

Honestly though. I do believe in honest money and in anonymous transactions. For me it's more a matter of principle than of economic gain.

Still, commie rants annoy me and I tend to react with contempt. Hence that remark above.
"Chelsea have confirmed that their interim fans will leave the club when Roman Abramovich does"
-sinnermichael

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=303961.msg11432382#msg11432382

Offline Lenin.

  • Rita out.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 9,922
  • "We All Shine On"
Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #152 on: January 10, 2014, 02:37:46 pm »
The attitudes are irrelevant for the tech behind and mostly irrelevant for the possibilities as well.

It's not a Ponzi scheme in any sense. Whoever believes that has no clue what a Ponzi scheme is. If anything it would be a pump-and-dump scheme.

It's not though, but there is a societal element to it that many early adopters will go into dishonest ways if necessary trying to pump value by any means, respectable or not. I don't condone that but it's not a problem with the protocol, it's a flaw of (some/most) people when greed takes over. House owners suffer from the same and that doesn't necessarily mean that housing is inherently evil or a scheme.

Honestly though. I do believe in honest money and in anonymous transactions. For me it's more a matter of principle than of economic gain.

Still, commie rants annoy me and I tend to react with contempt. Hence that remark above.
Pardon my ignorance, but what commie rants?
Oh you English are SO superior aren't you? Well, would you like to know where you'd be without US the good old U.S. of A. to protect you? I'll tell you. The smallest fucking province in the Russian Empire, that's where! If it wasn't for us, you'd all be speaking German, singing, "Deutschland, Deutschland Uber Alles!"

Offline Alan_X

  • WUM. 'twatito' - The Cat Herding Firm But Fair Voice Of Reason (Except when he's got a plank up his arse). Gimme some skin, priest! Has a general dislike for Elijah Wood. Clearly cannot fill even a thong! RAWK Resident Muppet. Has a crush o
  • RAWK Staff
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 53,360
  • Come on you fucking red men!!!
  • Super Title: This is super!
Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #153 on: January 10, 2014, 06:39:09 pm »
Pardon my ignorance, but what commie rants?

Asks Lenin...

I agree though - what the fuck is a 'commie' rant...
Sid Lowe (@sidlowe)
09/03/2011 08:04
Give a man a mask and he will tell the truth, Give a man a user name and he will act like a total twat.
Its all about winning shiny things.

Offline Zend...en the clowns

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,459
  • Likes BBQ sauce a bit too much..
Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #154 on: January 10, 2014, 09:29:48 pm »
The commie rants are hard to hear above my BTC riches.

I wouldn't recommend it to anyone as a speculative vehicle. That's something one must research on his own. But as a pseudonimous payment vehicle it just works and it's getting widespread. In the Internet this fills an incredibly important void.

Commie rants? Ah, if those of us wanting more fairness and equality (especially in light of such recent financial world events) are commies then i think you're coming onto the right message board where the majority of our fanbase would fall into that definition.

I've made more than that. I haven't "cashed out" much though, just about the original investment and some ~£10K. Had no problems whatsoever.

You make me sick.

Honestly though. I do believe in honest money and in anonymous transactions. For me it's more a matter of principle than of economic gain.

Still, commie rants annoy me and I tend to react with contempt. Hence that remark above.

400k worth of principle?
He posts in the day, he posts in the niiiiiiggghht,
That Zend...en the clowns, his timings just right.

Offline The Gulleysucker

  • RAWK's very own spinached up Popeye. Transfer Board Veteran 5 Stars.
  • RAWK Remembers
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 11,496
  • An Indolent Sybarite
Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #155 on: January 10, 2014, 11:22:58 pm »
You've made over £400,000? Bloody hell.
I strongly suspect an element of...



If I'd managed to get 400k or more from this, not that I ever would as I have some scruples, I somehow doubt I'd be on Rawk bragging about it.
It's beyond even A@A levels of Baron Münchhausen stuff.



I don't do polite so fuck yoursalf with your stupid accusations...

Right you fuckwit I will show you why you are talking out of your fat arse...

Mutton Geoff (Obviously a real nice guy)

Offline Brian Blessed

  • Gordon's ALIVE? Practically Bear Grylls. Backwards Bluesman Bastard.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 44,177
  • Super Title: Feedback Tourist #4
Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #156 on: January 11, 2014, 12:56:33 am »
I strongly suspect an element of...



If I'd managed to get 400k or more from this, not that I ever would as I have some scruples, I somehow doubt I'd be on Rawk bragging about it.
It's beyond even A@A levels of Baron Münchhausen stuff.




youd also be a RAWK supporter, I'm sure.
Anyone else being strangely drawn to Dion Dublin's nipples?

Offline muyuu

  • Google Groomer. reddit remain campaigner.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,544
  • I love Rafa - fact
Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #157 on: January 11, 2014, 01:35:33 am »
I strongly suspect an element of...



If I'd managed to get 400k or more from this, not that I ever would as I have some scruples, I somehow doubt I'd be on Rawk bragging about it.
It's beyond even A@A levels of Baron Münchhausen stuff.





Whatever.

I actually offered to donate in Bitcoin (over a year ago) and I was told to go away with my funny bits.

I'm a supporter in Bitcointalk.org where I'm active since Bitcoins where worth $5 or so. You can find me there under the same nickname.

Willing to bet? I can sign a message with one of my addresses to prove ownership of my Bitcoins (well above 1000). But that would be in private messages. I'm not posting here anymore.

Cheerio.
"Chelsea have confirmed that their interim fans will leave the club when Roman Abramovich does"
-sinnermichael

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=303961.msg11432382#msg11432382

Offline Hij

  • Literally Custom-titlely neglected for literally over a decade, Ruud.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 17,025
  • Justice for Anne Williams. Justice for the 97.
    • Grime Forum
Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #158 on: January 11, 2014, 01:39:16 am »
I know someone with circa £40,000 and someone with over £500k.

It's not beyond the realms of possibility.
Justice for Anne Williams. Justice for the 97. Justice for the Survivors.

Istanbul 2005. Athens 2007. Basel 2016. Kiev 2018. Madrid 2019. Paris 2022.

Offline Niru Red4ever

  • Spoiler spoiler
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,877
Re: Bitcoin
« Reply #159 on: January 11, 2014, 03:50:48 am »
It's not a Ponzi scheme in any sense. Whoever believes that has no clue what a Ponzi scheme is. If anything it would be a pump-and-dump scheme.
I said not in the strictest sense of the term 'ponzi', but the effects may be similar.
Still, commie rants annoy me and I tend to react with contempt. Hence that remark above.
As others have asked, what commie rants? Alan was being critical due to the losses suffered by some individuals over the recent volatility. I replied that it is inevitable, but the tech itself is interesting and innovative.

Sounds to me like somebody won a lottery and now just showing off.
If I'd managed to get 400k or more from this, not that I ever would as I have some scruples, I somehow doubt I'd be on Rawk bragging about it.
400k is not much when it comes to bitcoins. The price went up 100x in a year.
Would love the 19th more and more trophies; but would love even more to see a fan owned LFC.