Author Topic: PL: West Ham 3 vs 2 Liverpool Fornals 5’, 67’, Trent 41 Zouma 75’ Origi 83’  (Read 39125 times)

Offline Al 666

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“ Peeps into thread to see if it’s safe ,  was hoping 30 pages would be done a bit of steam let off “


I did think about writing something funny but thought better if it  ;D


Obviously amazing win thought we played well

In last few years you are World, European & Premier league champions and people expect West Ham to come out guns blazing and try to beat you at your own game

Never going to happen, Moyes tactics spot on tight compact press and counter

Cresswell yes should of been a red card .

The first goal sorry lads that was fine I’ve watched and read a lot of comments in the media and 99% agree it was goal

The future looks bright good team , youth and academy teams doing well recently beating Man Utd 6-0 , Arsenal 6-0 plus wins over Tottenham & Everton plus new investment

The top 5 have a fight on their hands with Tottenham, West Ham , Leicester, Aston Villa, Newcastle & Everton all getting new managers, investors and higher expectations
Going to be interesting

Look I still see us finishing around 6-7th . If we stay injury free maybe better












Yeh nothing to see here.



or here

cartoon-fall" border="0

I mean throwing yourself on top of the keeper and pinning him to the ground is fine.

NFL" border="0

As is Declan Rice standing behind Virgil and shoving him in the back as the ball comes in.

All of those things are fine in American Football.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2021, 06:21:46 pm by Al 666 »
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

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You're constantly talking about 'the department has been lauded'. Its been 'lauded' because overall we've done a very, very good job of both buying and selling players under the current manager. That doesn't mean its easy, or everything will be successful, or every plan will work. Right now though we have the best GK in the world, tied down for years. And we have a very good young keeper as backup. That's good planning to me. We have the best RB in the world, who is 22. We then have two good youngsters who could potentially back him up. At left back we have a superb player in Robbo, and another excellent back up a few years younger in Kostas. All tied down for years. To me that's good planning. At CB we have VVD and Matip, and we have Konate and Gomez. Two phenomenal older CBs and two brilliant younger ones. Contracts all good. And some excellent kids too. To me thats good planning. In CM we have the best DM in world football tied down for years. We have Henderson sorted. We then have three more 'injury prone' players with contracts soon to be discussed, we have Millie expiring at the end of the season and we have two very good youngsters with new contracts stepping up. We're well set there and as long as we've got one or two lined up in the next 6-12 months, again to me thats good planning. In attack we're very well stocked, but obviously depends what contracts we sort out. Your issue, and a few others, it seems is that you want everything now. If we havent dealt with everything already, we're slacking. Never mind if it'd mean we had 11 senior CMs and 6 attackers all expecting to start most games. Unless you're a sports washer, it is how any normal club has to operate. Its a constant process.

More weirdly though.....you keep bringing up how we 'work three transfer windows ahead' and often in the same paragraph then talk about Curtis Jones and Harvey Elliott not being ready. As much as you seem to despise the idea, there's every chance that bringing Jones and Elliott into the first team picture was very much part of any plan we had for the midfield.

You've got this bizarre idea that you just buy players who don't get injured. It doesn't work like that. You dont just 'sell your injury prone players' and replace them with 'players who will never get injured'. If you've got the magic formula for that I'd suggest you're wasted on RAWK and might want to give our soon to be new head of football operations a call.
Agree.

Klopp has designed a squad to be a certain size. There is genuine depth all over the squad with most contracts exactly where you'd want them. New recruits have arrived in recent windows and they are already first team options. That's pretty good going when the standard is so high - unlike in previous eras when a signing could get first team football by virtue of being 'decent'.

And...yeah, new signings are just as likely to get their ankles snapped as existing players. Tough breaks happen.

Offline killer-heels

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Agree.

Klopp has designed a squad to be a certain size. There is genuine depth all over the squad with most contracts exactly where you'd want them. New recruits have arrived in recent windows and they are already first team options. That's pretty good going when the standard is so high - unlike in previous eras when a signing could get first team football by virtue of being 'decent'.

And...yeah, new signings are just as likely to get their ankles snapped as existing players. Tough breaks happen.

There are a few areas that need to be looked at, specifically midfield as its in my opinion not what I would expect Klopp wanting. I think in attack and defence however Klopp has the right number of players.

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“ Peeps into thread to see if it’s safe ,  was hoping 30 pages would be done a bit of steam let off “


I did think about writing something funny but thought better if it  ;D


Obviously amazing win thought we played well

In last few years you are World, European & Premier league champions and people expect West Ham to come out guns blazing and try to beat you at your own game

Never going to happen, Moyes tactics spot on tight compact press and counter

Cresswell yes should of been a red card .

The first goal sorry lads that was fine I’ve watched and read a lot of comments in the media and 99% agree it was goal

The future looks bright good team , youth and academy teams doing well recently beating Man Utd 6-0 , Arsenal 6-0 plus wins over Tottenham & Everton plus new investment

The top 5 have a fight on their hands with Tottenham, West Ham , Leicester, Aston Villa, Newcastle & Everton all getting new managers, investors and higher expectations
Going to be interesting

Look I still see us finishing around 6-7th . If we stay injury free maybe better
Agree that you did what you had to against us, totally disappointed but obvious West Ham aren't a flaky side and are the real deal in terms of position, your results are not a flash in the pan  after top three you are certainly up there, made up for a group of supporters who haven't had much luck with managers and owners but pissed off we played the way we did. If that was city a professional foul would have sorted your second goal, we were a touch naive. We have to sort out that goalkeeper tactic, personal opinion thought it was a clever foul, I've seen them given but can see why it wasn't given, goalies recently well protected, you can't touch them but we should have done better after halftime. Klopp was angry after the match but hopefully he'll sort out options if other teams try that tactic again because on one level isolating the goalie a bit Sunday League but once it happened once we should have been more alert to your corners. We're pissed off but enjoy your victory mate you've always been a good poster and in my disappointment was pleased for you
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Offline FowlerLegend

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Some valid points there I'll give you that but I think you're using the benefit of hindsight in your analysis.

When you say the club had plenty of time to see these issues would be coming, what is it that you are referring to? Injuries? A lack of depth in certain positions?

I'd call it a significant amount down to luck whether players get injured or not, not just Elliot's injury (or Curtis' short term injury). It's not like the players are running around recklessly and not adhering to the nutrition plans, exercise routines, warmups, cool downs and all the other aspects of fitness management that's going on. I thought it was decidedly bad luck that pretty much everyone that played CB for us last season picked up an injury.

I don't think either Naby or Ox will be among the top earners at the club. While in general they've struggled for fitness and consistency, I think when they have played they've shown exactly the reasons why we signed them in the first place. I don't think you could argue that both were bad players.

Injuries aren't as simple as if you have a good few seasons then you're all good for your career, or that if you have a couple of injury prone years then you'll always be that way. Nobody can predict injuries. There are plenty of examples of robust players who've struggled with injuries at one club and then gone away and been quite consistent at another. Take Lallana for instance, we sold him to Brighton and a big part of that was his injury reliability. Since then he's played many games for Brighton including 30+ games last season when he hadn't crossed 30 for the 3 years in a row prior to that. In fact, if he plays 1 more game for Brighton, he would have featured as much in just over a season, as he had for us in 3 seasons.

So it boils down to this? That you don't think we have enough depth or options in then middle of the park and that all the management staff knew we'd run into this problem?

Going through your points in order, I really don't think I am using the benefit of hindsight. I think that is one of the annoying aspects of this. Plenty of people have said over the last few summers, especially this summer in midfield, that we should strengthen while we are on top, like Utd did for 20 years and like we did in the 80's.
We play high intensity football yet there seems plenty on here that don't seem to think that this takes a toll on the body over a period of time and the impacts of that need to be managed.
With injuries, I agree that players having good injury records is not a sign that will continue but we have plenty of midfielders in our squad that have had (at best) patchy injury records for a few seasons now. I would be happy to bet that they will still get injured.
I don't think Naby or the Ox are bad players but Naby will likely be on big money and what is the point if they are always injured. People talk about Jόrgen liking to run a tight ship but then we have to have 7 midfielders for 3 positions as we don't have 5 that can stay fit!!!
Fundamentally, yes, it does boil down to us not having enough depth and options in midfield inspite of the fact we have 7 or 8 players and yes, I do believe Ian Graham, Mike Edwards and Jόrgen have seen this coming. They are far too good not to. Not for one second do I think I know more about it than them, I don't think the issue lies with them.
It comes down to our owners. Now, before I upset all those on here who act like John Henry's mum, I don't think we need Man City, Chelsea level of investment because we have a really good recruitment team but eventually having the 14th highest net spend in the league will catch up with you.
Personally I think since we won the CL the owners looked at how far ahead we were, abandoned the policy that got us there and have made the bare minimum available (well before the pandemic). Thiago didn't fit our pre 2018 policy, was carrying a long term injury and was available for £5m. Tsimiakos was covered by Lovren and a squad player and Jota was available for £4m (but shows how ridiculously good our recruitment team is when given any money). Would we have been allowed to sign him if he was £15m upfront? I doubt it;
Konate had to be bought for fear of Van Dijk, Gomez and Matip breaking down
Konate and Jota are good players and fit a high tempo style but over the last 3 windows we needed to do more and I think we could have done it without breaking the bank

Offline El Lobo

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Going through your points in order, I really don't think I am using the benefit of hindsight. I think that is one of the annoying aspects of this. Plenty of people have said over the last few summers, especially this summer in midfield, that we should strengthen while we are on top, like Utd did for 20 years and like we did in the 80's.

I know I shouldn't just pluck one bit and ignore the rest of your post.....but this isn't really true at all.

The two seasons after they won the treble in 1999 they signed Silvestre, Quinton Fortune and Barthez and thats it.

The only signing they made in 95/96 was Tony Coton

The only big signings they made after winning the CL again in 07/08 for two years were Berbatov and Valencia (as well as Diouf, Obertan, Tosic and the Welsh midget).

They famously made it a priority to keep the core of their successful teams together, and rarely had big upheavals and huge squad changes.
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Imagine selling Ronaldo and replacing him with Valencia.

It would be like selling Salah and replacing him with Andros Townsend.

Offline keyop

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Personally I think since we won the CL the owners looked at how far ahead we were, abandoned the policy that got us there and have made the bare minimum available (well before the pandemic).
So just to be clear then - you think our owners sat down in summer 2019 and made a conscious decision to 'abandon the policy?'. Lets look at that more closely:

2017/18 - spent £160m on Virgil, Salah, Ox, and Robbo. Reached the Champions league final
2018/19 - spent £150m on Alisson, Keita, Fabino and Shaqiri. Won the Champions league
2019/20 - won the Premier League

Do you think our lack of spending in summer 2019 was due to the owners 'abandoning the policy', or do you think it might have been that they felt they'd backed Jurgen enough up to that point, and wanted to focus on the training ground investment and committing funds to the Anfield Road stand? Or was it perhaps that those £300m+ of signings in 2 seasons had increased the wage bill to a point that we needed to back off on spending for a summer to help the finances catch-up (as any sensible owners would do to prevent us getting into problems)? Or was it that there wasn't anyone identified that Jurgen wanted or that was available to buy? Or that we weren't able to shift enough players to free up squad places, or generate the income to spend at a similar rate?

In summer 2020 we bought Thiago, Jota and Tsimikas for £70m - during a pandemic when the whole world was going to shit and we'd already started playing in empty stadiums. An elite midfielder, a promising striker to help rotate the front 3, and a promising left back to give Robbo some rest after running like a maniac for 3 years. Is that not building from a position of strength? We also tied down key players on longer and more lucrative contracts during this period. is that not building from a position of strength? Is that 'abandoning the policy?'

The argument on here is often how little we spent in summer 2019 after winning the champions league, yet we won the title the following May and then spent £70m. If we add in Mane and Gini (that Kloppp bought in 2016), that's over £450m given to Klopp to spend, plus Brendan had spent £100m on Firmino, Benetke, Clyne and Ings in 2015, and £120m on Balotelli, Moreno, Lovren, Markovic, Lallana and Can in 2014.

So that's pretty much 6 seasons of decent spending with a break in 2019. At what point have FSG abandoned their policy, unless you mean that we didn't spend £150m one summer and therefore they failed?

Personally, I prefer to focus on the positives of the last 6 years and the incredible signings we made, the amazing new main stand, the new training ground, the Anfield Road progress, the title challenges and cup finals, and not least those 4 new shiny trophies we added - including the one we craved for so long. However, others seem to focus on a single transfer window or error of judgement, or not replacing Lovren, or some other single event that is easy to point out in hindsight, but which does a complete disservice to the fantastic work done everywhere else at the club both on and off the pitch.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2021, 02:06:33 pm by keyop »
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Online Egyptian36

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So just to be clear then - you think our owners sat down in summer 2019 and made a conscious decision to 'abandon the policy?'. Lets look at that more closely:

2017/18 - spent £160m on Virgil, Salah, Ox, and Robbo. Reached the Champions league final
2018/19 - spent £150m on Alisson, Keita, Fabino and Shaqiri. Won the Champions league
2019/20 - won the Premier League

Do you think our lack of spending in summer 2019 was due to the owners 'abandoning the policy', or do you think it might have been that they felt they'd backed Jurgen enough up to that point, and wanted to focus on the training ground investment and committing funds to the Anfield Road stand? Or was it perhaps that those £300m+ of signings in 2 seasons had increased the wage bill to a point that we needed to back off on spending for a summer to help the finances catch-up (as any sensible owners would do to prevent us getting into problems)? Or was it that there wasn't anyone identified that Jurgen wanted or that was available to buy? Or that we weren't able to shift enough players to free up squad places, or generate the income to spend at a similar rate?

In summer 2020 we bought Thiago, Jota and Tsimikas for £70m - during a pandemic when the whole world was going to shit and we'd already started playing in empty stadiums. An elite midfielder, a promising striker to help rotate the front 3, and a promising left back to give Robbo some rest after running like a maniac for 3 years. Is that not building from a position of strength? We also tied down key players on longer and more lucrative contracts during this period. is that not building from a position of strength? Is that 'abandoning the policy?'

The argument on here is often how little we spent in summer 2019 after winning the champions league, yet we won the title the following May and then spent £70m. If we add in Mane and Gini (that Kloppp bought in 2016), that's over £450m given to Klopp to spend, plus Brendan had spent £100m on Firmino, Benetke, Clyne and Ings in 2015, and £120m on Balotelli, Moreno, Lovren, Markovic, Lallana and Can in 2014.

So that's pretty much 6 seasons of decent spending with a break in 2019. At what point have FSG abandoned their policy, unless you mean that we didn't spend £150m one summer and therefore they failed?

Personally, I prefer to focus on the positives of the last 6 years and the incredible signings we made, the amazing new main stand, the new training ground, the Anfield Road progress, the title challenges and cup finals, and not least those 4 new shiny trophies we added - including the one we craved for so long. However, others seem to focus on a single transfer window or error of judgement, or not replacing Lovren, or some other single event that is easy to point out in hindsight, but which does a complete disservice to the fantastic work done everywhere else at the club both on and off the pitch.

FSG did not spend anything. For transfers we spend what we earn and for other things like expansions and the new training ground they took loans which the club repays. No denying they are good smart owners but at some point they need to invest since they bought the club very cheap. The sell to buy strategy can't go on , other clubs won't stand still and no guarantee we will have deals like Barcelona when they bought Coutinho.

Offline keyop

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FSG did not spend anything. For transfers we spend what we earn and for other things like expansions and the new training ground they took loans which the club repays. No denying they are good smart owners but at some point they need to invest since they bought the club very cheap. The sell to buy strategy can't go on , other clubs won't stand still and no guarantee we will have deals like Barcelona when they bought Coutinho.
All clubs have to spend what they earn.

Those that don't will either cheat like City or PSG or almost go bankrupt like Barcelona.
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Offline Jookie

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All clubs have to spend what they earn.

Those that don't will either cheat like City or PSG or almost go bankrupt like Barcelona.

This is basically the crux of it.

Most clubs spend what they earn or borrow money to spend more. In that scenario we are a top 5-7 club in terms of available resources.

In terms of elite clubs, there are probably 3 clubs who have consistent and extensive help from their owners to go above and beyond what they earn. I suspect it’ll be 4 clubs soon with Newcastle.

Even for clubs like Liverpool and United with extensive resources it going to be difficult to compete consistently on a long term basis. FSG throwing in an extra 25M for transfers every summer won’t move the needle much. Therefore we need to do things differently, be smarter than the opposition, find value where others don’t to help close the gap to those with bigger resources. I think we e done this and been able to compete for the past 3 seasons or so.

That challenge isn’t unique to Liverpool football Club. It’s the same for Manchester United, Arsenal, Spurs domestically and arguably Juventus, Inter, Real Madrid, Bayern when it comes to competing in European competition. With our current squad, revenues and infrastructure we are arguably in one of the best position to compete with the likes of City and PSG.

The other option is that we get different owners who will put their own money into the club and lots of it at that. That’s ultimately going to be a certain type of ownership with arguably non-sporting reasons driving their approach.

I’m all for people holding FSG to account but it needs to be sensible.some of the suggestions on here indicate either a lack of basic understanding of how finance works and/or people just want a sugar daddy owner.
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Online Egyptian36

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All clubs have to spend what they earn.

Those that don't will either cheat like City or PSG or almost go bankrupt like Barcelona.

Which is the right way and better for the club long term but reacting to different situations won't ruin the club, when we lost all our senior defenders because of long term injuries and we were at danger of not qualifying for CL they could have gave the club money and converted it into equity , no ? what happens if a player like Alisson who we only got because of Coutinho money becomes available and we need him badly but we don't have players to sell ? It's not like they won't get their money back, they will make huge profit when they sell eventually.

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Fuck you Paul, does it seem like we've calmed down  :wave

dont get a nose bleed now youre 3rd


Offline Jookie

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I don't think Naby or the Ox are bad players but Naby will likely be on big money and what is the point if they are always injured. People talk about Jόrgen liking to run a tight ship but then we have to have 7 midfielders for 3 positions as we don't have 5 that can stay fit!!!

Fundamentally, yes, it does boil down to us not having enough depth and options in midfield inspite of the fact we have 7 or 8 players and yes, I do believe Ian Graham, Mike Edwards and Jόrgen have seen this coming. They are far too good not to. Not for one second do I think I know more about it than them, I don't think the issue lies with them.

It comes down to our owners.


Do you think Klopp has promoted Elliott and Jones to the 1st team squad out of necessity or because he thinks they can develop into quality 1st team players?

Do you think Klopp was denied buying a midfielder this summer? If so, what do you think stopped this? Lack of funds? Unable to shift players in a Covid-hit transfer system?

What’s your evidence for the above answers? I mean actually quotes from Klopp saying, for example, he wanted a midfielder but the club wouldn’t fund it

I ask all the above since you’ve joined the dots in slightly different way to me. We all have similar information and none of us no where the truth exactly lies. I actually think our transfer strategy is influenced by finances. Finances that whilst increasing are impacted by a combination of wage increases, infrastructure improvements and Covid-related losses. In my opinion it’s definitely true to say finances for transfer have been impacted by some decisions and factors that are within the control of FSG.

I think the leap of faith you are making is the assumption that Klopp and the footballing people at the club are completely hindered by these decisions and that these decisions are being made against squad improvement that Klopp wants. I just don’t see that. Klopp had a big say in the training ground going ahead (reportedly he told the club he’d want the training ground over the same budget for transfers). Klopp is probably involved in who gets a contract extension or not. Not necessarily the contract length and value but how he supposedly stepped in to ensure Henderson got a new deal indicates his influence.

Like I said I think we are coming to different conclusions with the same info. Likely neither of us are 100% correct. But genuinely interested in your thought process of how it’s all down to FSG why we don’t have the required quality and depth in midfield
« Last Edit: November 12, 2021, 03:36:50 pm by Jookie »
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Offline FowlerLegend

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Do you think Klopp has promoted Elliott and Jones to the 1st team squad out of necessity or because he thinks they can develop into quality 1st team players?

Do you think Klopp was denied buying a midfielder this summer? If so, what do you think stopped this? Lack of funds? Unable to shift players in a Covid-hit transfer system?

What’s your evidence for the above answers? I mean actually quotes from Klopp saying, for example, he wanted a midfielder but the club wouldn’t fund it

I ask all the above since you’ve joined the dots in slightly different way to me. We all have similar information and none of us no where the truth exactly lies. I actually think our transfer strategy is influenced by finances. Finances that whilst increasing are impacted by a combination of wage increases, infrastructure improvements and Covid-related losses. In my opinion it’s definitely true to say finances for transfer have been impacted by some decisions and factors that are within the control of FSG.

I think the leap of faith you are making is the assumption that Klopp and the footballing people at the club are completely hindered by these decisions and that these decisions are being made against squad improvement that Klopp wants. I just don’t see that. Klopp had a big say in the training ground going ahead (reportedly he told the club he’d want the training ground over the same budget for transfers). Klopp is probably involved in who gets a contract extension or not. Not necessarily the contract length and value but how he supposedly stepped in to ensure Henderson got a new deal indicates his influence.

Like I said I think we are coming to different conclusions with the same info. Likely neither of us are 100% correct. But genuinely interested in your thought process of how it’s all down to FSG why we don’t have the required quality and depth in midfield
I agree that it's likely neither of us are 100% correct and that we are taking the same information from different standpoints.
Do I have quotes, no, but did we have quotes Klopp wanted a keeper after the CL final in 2018? Did he explicitly say it even in Jan about a centre back? It's the antithesis of what he us about isn't it? Mourinho or Rafa maybe but not Jόrgen, it's how he keeps his players motivated.
I would just ask you this, do you think that Jόrgen - a guy that constantly looks for marginal gains - throw-in coaches, set piece mind helpers (not sure what they are called 😁) , motivational speakers, nutritionists, psychologists - is blind to the fact that Naby farts and is out for 3 months or that Hendo is becoming more susceptible to injury, or that Milly is 35, or that Thiago has to manage a long term injury?
Or that our midfield looks vulnerable to pace - even with our best 3 in - or the feeling that we have maybe 1 player that can play DM and are overly staffed with attacking players/ball players.
None of that is new this season and I struggle to align Jurgen's meticulous approach on the one side with his supposed blindness to this on the other.
Even if he did miss it, Edwards who is about to go, is all over the data and is meticulous and again we are meant to believe that this ill balanced midfield is news to him.
I think Jόrgen does see players in Jones and in Elliott but I don't think he planned to play them as much or in an inconsistent 3, he always protects his young players.
This issue isn't one summer in the making, it's been coming for a while and the fact it hasn't been addressed does not fit in with what we know about Klopp or Edwards (I will try and dig out but I think I recall back in 19 Klopp wasn't too impressed with the lack of investment and he sure gave the impression he wasn't too happy in Jan) so who does that leave?
Personally,  I think for those reasons I cannot see the issue hasn't been raised by Edwards and Klopp  over the last couple of years.
Likely they were told there was no budget, and maybe that was the case but again I would argue that the owners could do more if they really wanted.
True, wages pre pandemic went up,  but it was comfortably outstripped by our total revenue still. True, revenue dropped during the pandemic but so too did wages as, due to the smartness of Edwards, it was heavily incentivised and our drop off in performance has that impact.
Then we have the age old "not spending what you don't have" and on the one hand the owners don't want to take on debt for transfers but they are happy for the club to take on debt to build the new stand and it seems a binary choice of it being one or the other. But why?
Infrastructure is one lever they could contribute to themselves, not impact FFP, and give us more room for manoeuvre in the transfer market and protect their £3bn asset.
I just think on the balance of probability it's more likely that there aversity to spending money is more the cause than Klopp or Edwards missing it.

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..snip...

...snip...

Fair enough. Not sure I agree with all that you've said so we'll just agree to disagree. I can certainly see where you're coming from but to me some of your posts are just contradictory.

It seems to me that you're suggesting that we should've strengthened our midfield position because a number of players had proven themselves unreliable through recurrent injuries by the beginning of last season. That sounds like a reaction to the situation at hand after it has already occurred which is, by definition, acting in hindsight. Even so, if you were to say that their unreliability at that point should've been considered as future permanent unreliability and we should have done something about it, I'm not sure that's very reasonable - for the reason that I provided which is that plenty of players have struggled with injuries for a period and then gone on to play reasonably consistently. Ings and Lallana are pretty good examples.

I don't doubt that we play high intensity football and that has an impact on players playing year in year out with our hectic schedule, but how does that relate to players who have spent a lot of time on the treatment table? They haven't been playing, so you can't argue that things have been too strenuous for them. If it's saying that this playing style necessarily generates more injuries and therefore we should just have a bigger squad preemptively, well that hasn't been justified through a period of sustained success where, barring last season which was a freak occurrence with our CBs, we have been just fine with the size of our squad.

I think that when we were at the top (ie after winning the CL and then EPL) there weren't huge calls to bring in a world class midfielder. IIRC there were calls to get in some cover for Robbo and Trent, and some cover for the front 3. We got Kostas and Jota in and although Kostas didn't feature much last season, Jota was pretty good. I'm pretty sure the discussion points around CM position were that both Naby and Ox would seemingly return from their injuries and the glimpses we had seen from them prior warranted giving them a fair crack to reestablish themselves after injuries. There would be, after all, no guarantee that any replacement we got wouldn't have similar issues anyway and so it'd be a risk and big outlay as well. In any case, we didn't spend big and instead brought in a world class midfielder (Thiago) on a pretty good deal, who had some abilities that we perhaps weren't getting out of our regular midfield. The player was also of a level of development and age that he would likely make an immediate impact but unlikely to stunt the progression of our young prospects. So, in this sense, Kostas, Jota and Thiago were arrivals that strengthened the squad in pretty much the areas that the team was perhaps needing it. 2 out of 3 signings have been largely excellent and 1 perhaps had his season spoiled by injury.

You say that Thiago was carrying a long term injury but he had played plenty of games for Bayern the 4 seasons before that and had been instrumental in their winning the Champions League before we signed him. He came into the team pretty much as soon as we signed him, and then IIRC, got COVID so missed some games for that and then got his knee injury from a terrible tackle and missed a long period after that. None of that was predictable based on what happened at Bayern, or because of our playing style. Would you be saying that he wasn't the right signing and we only got him because we got him cheaply if the Richarlison tackle never happened ? I doubt it.

In terms of recruitment, on the one hand you are extolling the virtues and capabilities of our recruitment team, but then one the other hand seem to suggesting that the problems we have with various recruits were all foreseeable to some extent, which would seem to be inconsistent with the level of capability you are suggesting (ie by definition, a capable recruitment team would not sign players that would likely continually break down, and foresee those that had started along such a path and immediately source a replacement).

I agree in general that it is possible to bring in the right profile of player without breaking the bank. Indeed, we have done just that (with the exception of perhaps Ali and VVD). But then you suggest that we got a bunch of players 'on the cheap' because the owners didn't want to spend. However, those players have largely been exactly the right type of signings (i.e. Jota, Tsimikas, Konate). So what was the alternative for such players? Get more expensive players (i.e. break the bank a bit more?)
 
n terms of midfield, from what you say it sounds like after we won the league, we should have signed a top class midfielder without breaking the bank. The recruitment team knew this and tried to do this but weren't permitted to do so by the owners. However, as it turns out we did brought in Thiago who is a top player, and promoted 2 youth talents who would have a chance to develop alongside a top player. We just got unlucky because the top player got injured early on from a bad tackle, and one of the young talents was also really unlucky with a terrible injury.

Nowhere in your spiel have you suggested that we should have just re-signed Gini, which I think with his great record, was probably the only thing that we should've done. The reasons for that are entirely unclear, and I'm not sure we can just put that down to the owners being a bit tight with cash.

« Last Edit: November 12, 2021, 07:13:58 pm by mrantarctica »

Offline Jookie

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I agree that it's likely neither of us are 100% correct and that we are taking the same information from different standpoints.
Do I have quotes, no, but did we have quotes Klopp wanted a keeper after the CL final in 2018? Did he explicitly say it even in Jan about a centre back? It's the antithesis of what he us about isn't it? Mourinho or Rafa maybe but not Jόrgen, it's how he keeps his players motivated.
I would just ask you this, do you think that Jόrgen - a guy that constantly looks for marginal gains - throw-in coaches, set piece mind helpers (not sure what they are called 😁) , motivational speakers, nutritionists, psychologists - is blind to the fact that Naby farts and is out for 3 months or that Hendo is becoming more susceptible to injury, or that Milly is 35, or that Thiago has to manage a long term injury?
Or that our midfield looks vulnerable to pace - even with our best 3 in - or the feeling that we have maybe 1 player that can play DM and are overly staffed with attacking players/ball players.
None of that is new this season and I struggle to align Jurgen's meticulous approach on the one side with his supposed blindness to this on the other.
Even if he did miss it, Edwards who is about to go, is all over the data and is meticulous and again we are meant to believe that this ill balanced midfield is news to him.
I think Jόrgen does see players in Jones and in Elliott but I don't think he planned to play them as much or in an inconsistent 3, he always protects his young players.
This issue isn't one summer in the making, it's been coming for a while and the fact it hasn't been addressed does not fit in with what we know about Klopp or Edwards (I will try and dig out but I think I recall back in 19 Klopp wasn't too impressed with the lack of investment and he sure gave the impression he wasn't too happy in Jan) so who does that leave?
Personally,  I think for those reasons I cannot see the issue hasn't been raised by Edwards and Klopp  over the last couple of years.
Likely they were told there was no budget, and maybe that was the case but again I would argue that the owners could do more if they really wanted.
True, wages pre pandemic went up,  but it was comfortably outstripped by our total revenue still. True, revenue dropped during the pandemic but so too did wages as, due to the smartness of Edwards, it was heavily incentivised and our drop off in performance has that impact.
Then we have the age old "not spending what you don't have" and on the one hand the owners don't want to take on debt for transfers but they are happy for the club to take on debt to build the new stand and it seems a binary choice of it being one or the other. But why?
Infrastructure is one lever they could contribute to themselves, not impact FFP, and give us more room for manoeuvre in the transfer market and protect their £3bn asset.
I just think on the balance of probability it's more likely that there aversity to spending money is more the cause than Klopp or Edwards missing it.


I think it's maybe worth saying that we should agree to disagree.

There's a huge amount of conjecture in your post. The one thing I'd also say about Klopp that you didn't mention is that he's faithful and trusting in his players and staff. Almost to fault.

A counter argument here is that Klopp wanted to see what Thiago looked like in midfield when Fabinho and Henderson were both available and consistently more available. That he believes in the ability of Keita - as witnessed via his continued selection in a number of big games - and trusted the extensive and growing sports science department to get him on the pitch more consistently.

There also an argument that he rates Elliott and Jones hugely. The Elliot trust and confidence in his ability is signalled somewhat by his selection ahead of senior midfielders this season for a number of games before his injury.

Now I understand there is some conjecture in what I'm saying but some of it is backed up, somewhat, by Klopp's action/evidence.

Last comment is on bonuses. I've said this on here numerous times. I've not seen Liverpool's bonus structure but I have had some insight to the bonus structure at another big English club. Not a club who is as known for providing incentivised contracts. The incentives are wide ranging and extensive. It's a complete falsehood to think they are linked to just winning a trophy. They are a sliding scale with progression and position in certain competitors.

From what I'm led to understand, for example QF and 3rd in the league isn't that different than last 16 in CL and winning the league in terms of bonus payment. The proof will be in the pudding with next years account but I'd guess wages as a whole will be high due to CL progression and qualification via 3rd place. I suspect anyone expecting a massive drop in wages due to not winning a trophy will be surprised. I could be wrong though.
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CHOPPER 10:66
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Offline andythered

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Back to the point. Our tactics require absolute dominant horses with great technique who can press, pass and tackle in all but one of the midfield three. We do not have that right now. Fabinho is irreplaceable. Hendo et al are not. A knackered AOC and nearly done for Milner are not who’re there. Given the intensity of our pressing game, we need more in midfield. As we did in CB last season where our cheap arse replacements were less than good of i am being fair.

So we need new midfield blood in Jan. but what do i know?

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CHOPPER 10:66

Blame FSG.

If they'd just given an extra 30M this summer to the transfer kitty then everyone would have been happy. Apart from Al obviously who'd probably want them to get in a Delorean and go back to summer 2019 and buy some players. That lack of spend then is the route of all our issues since (including winning a league with a record series of results by playing the same 11 players every week).

(i'm only joking Al  :P)
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CHOPPER 10:66

Which is the better read?

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I think it's maybe worth saying that we should agree to disagree.

There's a huge amount of conjecture in your post. The one thing I'd also say about Klopp that you didn't mention is that he's faithful and trusting in his players and staff. Almost to fault.

A counter argument here is that Klopp wanted to see what Thiago looked like in midfield when Fabinho and Henderson were both available and consistently more available. That he believes in the ability of Keita - as witnessed via his continued selection in a number of big games - and trusted the extensive and growing sports science department to get him on the pitch more consistently.

There also an argument that he rates Elliott and Jones hugely. The Elliot trust and confidence in his ability is signalled somewhat by his selection ahead of senior midfielders this season for a number of games before his injury.

Now I understand there is some conjecture in what I'm saying but some of it is backed up, somewhat, by Klopp's action/evidence.

Last comment is on bonuses. I've said this on here numerous times. I've not seen Liverpool's bonus structure but I have had some insight to the bonus structure at another big English club. Not a club who is as known for providing incentivised contracts. The incentives are wide ranging and extensive. It's a complete falsehood to think they are linked to just winning a trophy. They are a sliding scale with progression and position in certain competitors.

From what I'm led to understand, for example QF and 3rd in the league isn't that different than last 16 in CL and winning the league in terms of bonus payment. The proof will be in the pudding with next years account but I'd guess wages as a whole will be high due to CL progression and qualification via 3rd place. I suspect anyone expecting a massive drop in wages due to not winning a trophy will be surprised. I could be wrong though.
Yeah, no problems agreeing to disagree.
I would agree that a lot of what I am saying is based on my interpretation of information and I think there may be some truth in what your saying. For instance, I think Klopp is loyal to a fault and an optimist and maybe he does think Naby can get over his injuries (personally think that is the height of wishful thinking) I also think it's difficult to know in reality as he also has talked players up and then binned them off.
I also see what your saying about Elliott and Jones, personally I don't think he would play Jones as much if he had some more options but again that is open to debate.
Interesting titbit about the bonuses, cheers. All the best!

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Fair enough. Not sure I agree with all that you've said so we'll just agree to disagree. I can certainly see where you're coming from but to me some of your posts are just contradictory.

It seems to me that you're suggesting that we should've strengthened our midfield position because a number of players had proven themselves unreliable through recurrent injuries by the beginning of last season. That sounds like a reaction to the situation at hand after it has already occurred which is, by definition, acting in hindsight. Even so, if you were to say that their unreliability at that point should've been considered as future permanent unreliability and we should have done something about it, I'm not sure that's very reasonable - for the reason that I provided which is that plenty of players have struggled with injuries for a period and then gone on to play reasonably consistently. Ings and Lallana are pretty good examples.

I don't doubt that we play high intensity football and that has an impact on players playing year in year out with our hectic schedule, but how does that relate to players who have spent a lot of time on the treatment table? They haven't been playing, so you can't argue that things have been too strenuous for them. If it's saying that this playing style necessarily generates more injuries and therefore we should just have a bigger squad preemptively, well that hasn't been justified through a period of sustained success where, barring last season which was a freak occurrence with our CBs, we have been just fine with the size of our squad.

I think that when we were at the top (ie after winning the CL and then EPL) there weren't huge calls to bring in a world class midfielder. IIRC there were calls to get in some cover for Robbo and Trent, and some cover for the front 3. We got Kostas and Jota in and although Kostas didn't feature much last season, Jota was pretty good. I'm pretty sure the discussion points around CM position were that both Naby and Ox would seemingly return from their injuries and the glimpses we had seen from them prior warranted giving them a fair crack to reestablish themselves after injuries. There would be, after all, no guarantee that any replacement we got wouldn't have similar issues anyway and so it'd be a risk and big outlay as well. In any case, we didn't spend big and instead brought in a world class midfielder (Thiago) on a pretty good deal, who had some abilities that we perhaps weren't getting out of our regular midfield. The player was also of a level of development and age that he would likely make an immediate impact but unlikely to stunt the progression of our young prospects. So, in this sense, Kostas, Jota and Thiago were arrivals that strengthened the squad in pretty much the areas that the team was perhaps needing it. 2 out of 3 signings have been largely excellent and 1 perhaps had his season spoiled by injury.

You say that Thiago was carrying a long term injury but he had played plenty of games for Bayern the 4 seasons before that and had been instrumental in their winning the Champions League before we signed him. He came into the team pretty much as soon as we signed him, and then IIRC, got COVID so missed some games for that and then got his knee injury from a terrible tackle and missed a long period after that. None of that was predictable based on what happened at Bayern, or because of our playing style. Would you be saying that he wasn't the right signing and we only got him because we got him cheaply if the Richarlison tackle never happened ? I doubt it.

In terms of recruitment, on the one hand you are extolling the virtues and capabilities of our recruitment team, but then one the other hand seem to suggesting that the problems we have with various recruits were all foreseeable to some extent, which would seem to be inconsistent with the level of capability you are suggesting (ie by definition, a capable recruitment team would not sign players that would likely continually break down, and foresee those that had started along such a path and immediately source a replacement).

I agree in general that it is possible to bring in the right profile of player without breaking the bank. Indeed, we have done just that (with the exception of perhaps Ali and VVD). But then you suggest that we got a bunch of players 'on the cheap' because the owners didn't want to spend. However, those players have largely been exactly the right type of signings (i.e. Jota, Tsimikas, Konate). So what was the alternative for such players? Get more expensive players (i.e. break the bank a bit more?)
 
n terms of midfield, from what you say it sounds like after we won the league, we should have signed a top class midfielder without breaking the bank. The recruitment team knew this and tried to do this but weren't permitted to do so by the owners. However, as it turns out we did brought in Thiago who is a top player, and promoted 2 youth talents who would have a chance to develop alongside a top player. We just got unlucky because the top player got injured early on from a bad tackle, and one of the young talents was also really unlucky with a terrible injury.

Nowhere in your spiel have you suggested that we should have just re-signed Gini, which I think with his great record, was probably the only thing that we should've done. The reasons for that are entirely unclear, and I'm not sure we can just put that down to the owners being a bit tight with cash.
Well same as I said to Jookie, happy to agree to disagree.
Fundamentally I was saying the club should be proactive and be  looking to have replacements lined up for players prior to them starting to pickup injuries and 3 years is long enough them to have done that. I wasn't saying they needed to be world class on arrival, they needed to have potential and having won the league we were in a position to attract those type of players before injuries started occurring.
Certain players have demonstrated they are injury prone and others the club could predict based on age and games played. Players like Lallana and Ings are, in my mind, quite unique in playing a number of games after looking injury prone. Maybe that is more to do with playing in a different style though and with us they would have continued picking up niggles. Klopp loved Lallana so I think if he felt there was any chance he would have kept him.
I don't think that Klopp or Edwards are to blame for the lack of action, personally think it is on the owners as as I cannot imagine that, seeing them everyday, they didn't make it known to FSG.
Thiago is managing a long term injury from his Bayern days, he said it himself earlier this season, and so he was only ever going to be a short term player.
Had the club done those things, in my opinion they wouldn't have needed to resign Gini, on big wages at 29 because they would have already had a younger hungry replacement lined up (probably on much less wages). His leverage would have been less and at 29 we wouldn't be as reliant on him. Due to the fact they hadn't done that though, it probably would have been beneficial to pay him what he wanted until the situation could be rectified.
I already said that Jota and Konate look like good signings but I would say we needed more and  ( 2 really good players - 1 probably brought in cause he was cheap  - in 6 windows is not loads) and I wouldn't agree that any of the others improve our first team or keep it at the same level.

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Fuck you Paul, does it seem like we've calmed down  :wave

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Blame FSG.

If they'd just given an extra 30M this summer to the transfer kitty then everyone would have been happy. Apart from Al obviously who'd probably want them to get in a Delorean and go back to summer 2019 and buy some players. That lack of spend then is the route of all our issues since (including winning a league with a record series of results by playing the same 11 players every week).

(i'm only joking Al  :P)

To be fair he ranks finishing 4th as a bigger achievement than winning the CL or the PL so…
One thing needs to be said: In the post-Benitez era, the appointment of FSG as owners of the club, their restructuring of the club and hire of competent staff like Ayre and Edwards is responsible for the modern revival of LFC’s profile and it’s most successful period in recent history. The fans remember. FSG will never walk alone.

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Back to the point. Our tactics require absolute dominant horses with great technique who can press, pass and tackle in all but one of the midfield three. We do not have that right now. Fabinho is irreplaceable. Hendo et al are not. A knackered AOC and nearly done for Milner are not who’re there. Given the intensity of our pressing game, we need more in midfield. As we did in CB last season where our cheap arse replacements were less than good of i am being fair.

So we need new midfield blood in Jan. but what do i know?

Fuck all, mate, tbf  :D

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Regarding hindsight and foresight, it is fair to point out that many - and I think I was one of them - had concerns about losing an ever-present midfielder like Gini and hoping that the likes of Keita and Ox would be capable of playing 1500-2000 PL minutes each. That concern was based on an ignorance of Harvey Elliott's immediate future as a regular 90-minute centre mid. As Pascal Struijk's eyes lit up at the chance to make a hero tackle, we were probably most of us feeling comfortable with our midfield options. Now things are looking not so great, for a combination of unpredictable (Harvey, Curtis's eye) and predictable (Keita and overworked-Milner hamstrings) reasons.

What I'm saying is that everyone's a little bit right, and more importantly, a lot wrong.

Offline mrantarctica

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Regarding hindsight and foresight, it is fair to point out that many - and I think I was one of them - had concerns about losing an ever-present midfielder like Gini and hoping that the likes of Keita and Ox would be capable of playing 1500-2000 PL minutes each. That concern was based on an ignorance of Harvey Elliott's immediate future as a regular 90-minute centre mid. As Pascal Struijk's eyes lit up at the chance to make a hero tackle, we were probably most of us feeling comfortable with our midfield options. Now things are looking not so great, for a combination of unpredictable (Harvey, Curtis's eye) and predictable (Keita and overworked-Milner hamstrings) reasons.

What I'm saying is that everyone's a little bit right, and more importantly, a lot wrong.

Actually the more important bit is that it is irrelevant whether everyone's a little bit right or a little bit left. The only relevant point is whether our staff and recruitment folk get it right more often than not. I think they are owed the benefit of the doubt because pretty much the majority of players they have signed have done a good job for us, and the majority of the players they have sold on fetched a good price and we haven't really regretted losing.

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is the real football back yet
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is the real football back yet

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Fuck all, mate, tbf  :D

Fucking hell, I've blundered into this thread and I can promise John C et al, I'm blundering out pretty fucking quick. Goodnight and goodluck
Oi, don't bring me in to this bombed out discussion ya arl crank :)

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Yeah 9 tines out of 10, thats a foul blown by the referee on Allison. Cresswell should've been off, but he's the right colour and nationality to be spared that punishment

Bit gutted Mane couldn't convert his last effort, was fairly simple enough for a man of his calibre. We could've remained unbeaten and broken the record for away goals

Hopefully it's given the team the kick up the backside and next game, it'll all be forgotten about