Author Topic: PL: West Ham 3 vs 2 Liverpool Fornals 5’, 67’, Trent 41 Zouma 75’ Origi 83’  (Read 51233 times)

Offline El Lobo

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Also, as much as I love the man, there's a pretty clear difference between a manager like Klopp and a manager like Rafa.

Rafa signed Josemi in his first season, Barragan and Kromkamp in his second season, Arbeloa in his third season, Degen in his fourth season and Glen Johnson in his fifth season. 5/6 senior right backs over five years, in addition to Steve Finnan.

Similar with goalkeepers. We already had Dudek and Kirkland here. Signed Carson, signed Pepe, signed Padelli, signed Itandje, signed Cavalieri.

I don't think for a second Rafa arrives in 2016 with Clyne and Jon Flanagan as his right backs and doesn't pretty immediately go out and sign another one. In an alternate universe he uses Barragan and Scott Carson as back ups in 2005, saves the money we spent on never ending goalkeepers and right backs and we end up having enough for Dani Alves or Sergio Aguero.

You see similar, with a larger budget, from Guardiola.

What Jookie is saying, I believe, is that Klopp quite clearly would rather use what he has instead of going out and getting not quite what he wants. Not only has that landed us monsters like VVD, I'd suggest its also helped massively with players like Trent. Again, no-one is saying he doesn't like to sign new players but there's pretty clear evidence that he doesn't just want to sign people for the sake of it. Its not to say he prioritises developing youngsters over transfers, but I'm pretty certain he'd want to be sure he doesn't have a solution at the club first before going out and spending.

If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

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If Klopp had unlimited funds like City, he'd have brought in other players who would be ahead of AOC, Origi, Minamino, etc.  But once the window is closed, he maximises what he has to work with.
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Offline El Lobo

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Why would he ever have unlimited funds like City....unless he was at a sports washer, which he wouldnt do?
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

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Why would he ever have unlimited funds like City....unless he was at a sports washer, which he wouldnt do?

Ok, if we had Utd's budget and could afford like they can to have someone on Mata's wage just sitting around.
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Offline idontknow

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Watching everyone try get a straight answer from Al has always been one of the highlights of RAWK. Fascinating.

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Offline Jookie

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He has also reiterated repeatedly our inability to compete in the market (he did this at Dortmund too, and in January). This is what we know.

The other thing we know from Klopp's time at Dortmund, and there's quotes on this, is that he was frustrated about not being able to build a team. Losing Gotze, Sahin, Kagawa, Lewandowski. Key players that were lost during the process and after building a 2 x title winning and CL finalist squad.

Like Liverpool, Dortmund had the ability to sign players. They just couldn't compete with certain clubs in terms of transfer and wage spend.

Fast forward to Liverpool and there are some parallels though the number of clubs that we can't compete with in terms of wages and transfer spend COMBINED is a much smaller pool than what Klopp hard at Dortmund.

I do wonder if that experience of losing key players and the disruptive influence it had on team building, and utilmately success, at Dortmund has made Klopp wary of losing lots of key players at once. That he views retention of current key players as more important to success than recruitment of lots of new players.

We shouldn't conflate Klopp's time at Dortmund to Liverpool. There are some parallels but also significant differences. In terms of size of club, being able to attract and retain players, resources available to attract and keep players there's massive differences. Where we are as a club is significantly ahead of where Dortmund are. They are a very good club but ultimately one that is viewed as a stepping stone to the absolute elite clubs. Liverpool is an elite club and viewed as a destination club. That's exemplified by the players we have and their willingness to extend their contracts and see the peak years of their careers at the club. That just doesn't happen at Dortmund with any regularity -  during Klopp's time or now.
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Online JackWard33

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Why is the discussion around what Klopp likes /wants to do? - bit off base isn't it?

Surely the question is whether our squad is fit for purpose or not and what we should do from here ?

Offline El Lobo

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Ok, if we had Utd's budget and could afford like they can to have someone on Mata's wage just sitting around.

I'm really not sure he would. He's said before he likes working with a small squad. He's been here, Dortmund and Mainz. It always seems to come back around to 'the manager hasn't been backed by FSG' or 'Klopp would sign loads of players if he could' but it doesn't have much basis in reality. And we're not paupers. We had Ox and Naby sitting around last season, both on big wages for big transfer fees.
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

Offline keyop

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Genuinely surprised that the conversation of transfers is coming up in reference to Sunday.

Ok Sunday we had -

The best goalkeeper in the world
The best centre half in the world
The best defensive midfielder in the world
The best player in the world
In addition to a number of players who would be considered ‘world class’ in their respective positions, Robbo, Matip, Thiago, Mane, and pretty much none of them played to the level they are capable of. It was clearly a day where the opposition played to their strengths (not necessarily their best I’m not convinced they were that great) and we were well off it and as a result we lose the game. Now there’s a legitimate conversation to be had in the wider sense that days like Sunday are happening with a higher frequency than a team with aspirations of winning the title can afford, and it’s one which I’m struggling with myself, but it clearly wasn’t down to transfers, with the exception of Firmino and arguably Thiago who starts from the bench, that was our best eleven on the pitch on Sunday, anyone pinning that on recruitment I’d be genuinely interested to hear what transfers they’d have made and who they would have dropped to accommodate them.

The default position after a poor result seems to be to blame the ownership for not signing more players, the Mancs have been doing that for years and it hasn’t exactly worked has it? Look, it may be the case that we get to the end of the season having had to play multiple games with weakened sides and at that point it may be a fair question to discuss a lack of recruitment, but it’s an odd take after we’ve fielded practically our strongest 11 against West Ham and just not performaed well enough to merit anything other than the defeat which we got.
That's a really good summary JM - especially the bit in bold, which the doubters won't respond to as it doesn't suit their narrative.
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Offline Jookie

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Why is the discussion around what Klopp likes /wants to do? - bit off base isn't it?

Surely the question is whether our squad is fit for purpose or not and what we should do from here ?

Klopp is a key decision maker at the club so I think it's fair to say that what he likes/wants is going to have some impact on the squad make-up. Surely therefore Klopp and his preferences for squad building and retention have an impact on whether the squad is deemed fit for purpose or not?

I understand Klopp is not the only decision maker here but I think some people don't like the uncomfortable truth that Klopp is a part of the decision making process. Almost certainly a key decision maker, though decisions need to be made within the holistic strategy the club has.

It's very easy to say that Klopp is a by-stander and just sucks it up and does the best with what he's given. I just don't see that as being true. I also see it as being a bit disrespectful to Klopp and his desire to win. That'll he'll suck up any situation the club throw's at him. That he'll keep quiet, most of the time, despite operating with 1 arm tied behind his back. Again I don't see that as being true.

I think Klopp accepts that he works in a system that isn't as financially strong as 3 teams in this league -  2 backed by oil money and another club which has consistently had bigger revenues than us for 20 -30 years. I also think he wouldn't accept the club not trying to maximise our chances of winning within those perceived constraints. I just don't see him as a man or manager who would accept this. It's why you get the odd outburst like in January when he obviously thought the club weren't maximising our chance by not chasing a CB in the market. That type of outburst is the outlier rather than the norm. Sometime he states the truth that we don't have as much finances as certain clubs. That doesn't equate to the club having no money like some seem to think.
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Offline Dave McCoy

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Al would argue the Sky is Green and Water is actually Concrete if it suited him, this always ends the same way.

Seems we're well past talking about the game now and it's become an FSG/Klopp/Squad thread.  One thing I think that gets left out is our youth recruitment.  Would we have signed Elliot, Gordon, Clark and now supposedly Carvalho if they didn't think there was a path to the first team?  These kids careers seemed to be getting ever more managed and competitive when it comes to recruitment.  They had other options and chose us, potentially saving the club millions and a homegrown slot. 

Offline keyop

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If Klopp had unlimited funds like City, he'd have brought in other players who would be ahead of AOC, Origi, Minamino, etc.  But once the window is closed, he maximises what he has to work with.
Even if he wanted to, he'd have to sell the ones you've listed or send them out on loan. Players under contract will stay with us regardless of age, form, injuries or appearances, and we can't just bring in extra players if we're at our squad limit.

It's one of the reasons we've had to stick with Keita and Ox for so long - partly because there is (or was) clear potential, partly because we paid £80m for the pair of them, and partly because Klopp has an admirable sense of loyalty and patience towards players.

However, the other reason we have stuck with them is because we can't just go out and buy two replacements plus keep Keita/Ox in the squad (no matter how much money we had to spend) - especially as there won't be many suitors for players that are always injured.
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Offline Nobby Reserve

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I don't think Klopp will make transfers for marginal gains. For example could the club identify someone better than Origi? Of course they could. But I don't think Klopp would necessarily push to get someone in who was 5th choice and just marginally better than Origi. I don't think he sees the value in that and we've hardly made this type of transfer in his tenure.


That's not really correct. Origi is 3rd choice (or second reserve) for one of the 3 forward positions. He would only be 5th choice if we had just one position to fill.

It sounds pedantic, but it's not. We're going to be missing 2 of those forwards in Jan. Origi will be called upon to play.

And that, to me, is potentially a problem, because most of the times Origi has played in the last 2 and a bit seasons, he's looked too much of a step down in quality, and it substantially bluntens our effectiveness.
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Offline Cafe De Paris

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We came up against a team full of confidence and we didn’t play well, coinciding with a defeat. These games happen during a season. The issue was dropping points away at Brentford and home to Brighton.
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On what the team shape should be and how we approach games moving forward: Is there anything we can take from last season's 10-game unbeaten run to get us third? I wasn't watching much footie then so other than knowing that Thiago was instrumental in that run and we had Rhys and Nat as the defensive pair, which meant we probably didn't maintain as high or much of a high line.


Offline bornandbRED

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I don't think Klopp will make transfers for marginal gains.

Thanks for telling me to re-read your posts but I think from this line I can derive all I need to about your thoughts.

I don’t think anyone on the forum is asking for a new 5th choice striker or 3rd choice goal keeper. Gaps need plugging in the first team and for the second season running, we’ve gone into a season under-resourced and with the squad in sub-optimal condition. Attempts to suggest this is the manager’s own doing when he has repeatedly suggested otherwise are, frankly, bullshit.   

I'd like to solve the catchphrase. Is it 'things that haven't happened'?

Thats a pity, but we do :) We very clearly did with VVD and Keita, those are the two that there is cast iron evidence for. You can probably then speculate about most of the others, Konate is another who it's pretty well documented we waited for and impacted us spending big in January.

We had to wait a few months for VVD because we messed things up with Southampton, and we signed Keita on a pre-deal because that was the only way to get the deal done. Completely different to what the poster was suggesting. If we need a player we aren’t going to wait a year to see if the right man becomes available - it’s clear this isn’t the reason we aren’t signing players as suggested.

Online JackWard33

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Even if he wanted to, he'd have to sell the ones you've listed or send them out on loan. Players under contract will stay with us regardless of age, form, injuries or appearances, and we can't just bring in extra players if we're at our squad limit.


I've genuinely never heard this as a reason for not signing players in a summer window in years of being interested in football til this Summer from Liverpool fans and podcasts.. its so bizarre.
We can't buy players because we already have players?!

I can totally understand wage bill concerns, financial constraints, not finding targets we want or being priced out of them etc etc.... but 'we already have enough players so we don't want to buy players' .. is a new one

In every other club in every other season for decades in professional football at the end of the season the general idea is you tell them players you no longer want they'll be moving on and you go out and buy better players... if the LFC chatterati are to be taken literally we went 'ah... damn.. all the slots are full... oh well see you all next year'

Forgive me but I'm just not sure that's what went down

Offline jillcwhomever

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That's not really correct. Origi is 3rd choice (or second reserve) for one of the 3 forward positions. He would only be 5th choice if we had just one position to fill.

It sounds pedantic, but it's not. We're going to be missing 2 of those forwards in Jan. Origi will be called upon to play.

And that, to me, is potentially a problem, because most of the times Origi has played in the last 2 and a bit seasons, he's looked too much of a step down in quality, and it substantially bluntens our effectiveness.

If Origi got a run in the team, I'd think he'd do a fine job for us. He's already got goals and assists in the few games he's played a fully up to speed Origi playing on a regular basis, could be a good thing. When you say he bluntens our effectiveness it's because he's not had a regular number of games, so has no momentum. It's why I would like to see him playing at the moment especially with Jota. We have to plan for when Mane and Salah are not with us so why not give him a go?
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If Origi got a run in the team, I'd think he'd do a fine job for us. He's already got goals and assists in the few games he's played a fully up to speed Origi playing on a regular basis, could be a good thing. When you say he bluntens our effectiveness it's because he's not had a regular number of games, so has no momentum. It's why I would like to see him playing at the moment especially with Jota. We have to plan for when Mane and Salah are not with us so why not give him a go?

Because he's not good enough and isn't suited to the way we play.  He can't play that false 9 position because he doesn't have the workrate or footballing nous required, and he can't play as an inside forward like Mane or Salah because he doesn't have the movement or drive.

The only time Origi has looked like he could be a starter under Klopp was when we were playing 4231 early on and Origi could play the role that suited him, which is a target man who runs the channels.
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Offline jillcwhomever

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Because he's not good enough and isn't suited to the way we play.  He can't play that false 9 position because he doesn't have the workrate or footballing nous required, and he can't play as an inside forward like Mane or Salah because he doesn't have the movement or drive.

The only time Origi has looked like he could be a starter under Klopp was when we were playing 4231 early on and Origi could play the role that suited him, which is a target man who runs the channels.

There is going to have to be some kind of adjustment when we lose Mane and Salah anyway. We also don't know if Bobby will be back by then though I hope he will be.
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There is going to have to be some kind of adjustment when we lose Mane and Salah anyway. We also don't know if Bobby will be back by then though I hope he will be.

I mean, if we're going to play a formation with a traditional central striker, then Origi is the best fit in the squad.  Could be time for a tactical adjustment anyway, with us looking so sieve-like these days.
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If Bobby is still out when Salah and Mane aren't around, both Origi and Minanimo will be getting starts and we may end up going back to 4231 or whichever formation to bring out the best out of them.

Offline jillcwhomever

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I mean, if we're going to play a formation with a traditional central striker, then Origi is the best fit in the squad.  Could be time for a tactical adjustment anyway, with us looking so sieve-like these days.

Haven't Bobby and Jota played together just once so far? So, that's going to be a new partnership anyway they looked quite good together I seem to recall. It's going to be interesting to see how he set's us up for that. We have to cross our fingers that someone will make the most of their opportunity in the absence of Mo and Sadio.
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Offline El Lobo

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RAWK was the first place to talk about squad limits as a reason for potentially not signing a player :D Who knew.
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

Offline Mighty_Red

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You know, I thought the the general line of thinking in this thread was that our squad players were not quite good enough. Now l've learned that actually are 1st teamers are all overrated chancers.

Why Jurgen would stay here I'll never know!
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fuck me...an awful lot of people have an awful lot of time on their hands..
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There isn't an elephant in the room Al.....just a donut :D

Lets go through them one at a time though.

Their last two managers have been Dunga and Tite. I'm gonna go with 'yes, they've had a succession of idiots'.

Maybe you should show us your Footballing CV and maybe then you can show us what qualifies you to call coaches who have coached at the highest level idiots.

Brendan Rodgers..... Fucking hell Al, why do you do it to yourself. He played seven games for Rodgers, at the tail end of his time here. I'm not quite sure you can draw from that that Firmino actually isn't particularly good and its only Klopp who can get the best out of him.

You will have to point out the bit in which I said Bobby wasn't particularly good. My opinion is that to get the best out of Bobby you can't really play him as an orthodox striker or wide attacker. You have to build the system around him. Clearly Neymar is going to be the player Brazil build a team around. So did Rodgers play him as a false 9 ?




Trent performs at a much higher level for Liverpool because a) he has better players around him, 2) he has a far better manager at club level and d) he plays under Gareth fucking Southgate for England :duh

James and Walker aren't exceptional players Al, and if you think they are then you need re-educating on what exceptional is.

This is one of the favourite paragraphs I've ever read on RAWK :D Its unknowing genius

Yes tremendous, now answer Jookies question :thumbup

The roles Trent is asked to play for Liverpool and England are like chalk and cheese. Again Klopp builds his team to get the best out of Trent.

As for Walker and James of course they are exceptional players. Let's be clear here if they were not exceptional they wouldn't be starting week in week out for teams with pretty much unlimited funds. Unless that well known football guru 'Fucking Appalled' thinks Pep and Tuchel are idiots as well.

Both James and Walker are incredible athletes whose attributes suit teams that defend big spaces. They suit their managers respective systems whilst Trent suits ours.

As for answering Jookie's question I went to the trouble of listing who I think Klopp considers to be core players for the first 11 and who he considers to be squad players. My view is that unless we increase the number of core players that Klopp trusts then results like those against Brighton and West Ham are going to happen.
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Online Eeyore

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You know, I thought the the general line of thinking in this thread was that our squad players were not quite good enough. Now l've learned that actually are 1st teamers are all overrated chancers.

Why Jurgen would stay here I'll never know!

Has anyone actually stated that though. For me we have players who look absolutely sensational when we can play a high energy, high tempo pressing game. The issue for me is that when we don't have enough core players to play at that tempo then some of our players weaknesses come to the fore.

A few examples would be Fabinho who tends to struggle when asked to control big areas. Hendo who is unable to play at his usual intensity when asked to repeat games over an extended period. Trent can be got at when we come of the accelerator.

A good example would be the Brighton game when we started the game exceptionally well and played some truly brilliant football. The problem was as soon as we tired we couldn't get close to them and they played through us at will. That happened away to Atletico, Brighton 2nd half and to an extent West Ham 2nd half.

That and the lack of viable options for the first 11 means for me we don't have one of the top 5 squads in World football.
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Offline keyop

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I've genuinely never heard this as a reason for not signing players in a summer window in years of being interested in football til this Summer from Liverpool fans and podcasts.. its so bizarre.
We can't buy players because we already have players?!

I can totally understand wage bill concerns, financial constraints, not finding targets we want or being priced out of them etc etc.... but 'we already have enough players so we don't want to buy players' .. is a new one

In every other club in every other season for decades in professional football at the end of the season the general idea is you tell them players you no longer want they'll be moving on and you go out and buy better players... if the LFC chatterati are to be taken literally we went 'ah... damn.. all the slots are full... oh well see you all next year'

Forgive me but I'm just not sure that's what went down
Where in my post is the bit you've put in quotes? You've ignored the key point, which is 'players under contract'.

All clubs work within the limits of squad size, and you can't just stockpile new players unless another player is sold, out of contract, or goes out on loan. That's how it works and is why limits exist.

Posters saying things like 'we should have sold Ox/Keita/Origi/whoever, and get someone else' clearly don't understand the word contract. There's a reason that so many average players stick around at so many clubs for so long - it's because they can. You can't just say to a player mid-contract 'Thanks, but we've found someone better. Cheerio'.
« Last Edit: November 9, 2021, 08:09:00 pm by keyop »
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Where in my post is the bit you've put in quotes? You've ignored the key point, which is 'players under contract'.

All clubs work within the limits of squad size, and you can't just stockpile new players unless another player is sold, out of contract, or goes out on loan. That's how it works and is why limits exist.

Posters saying things like 'we should have sold Ox/Keita/Origi/whoever, and get someone else' clearly don't understand the word contract. There's a reason that many average players stick around at so many clubs for so long - it's because they can.

Err that isn't how the system works. You simply don't name that player in your CL or Premier league squad.
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Offline keyop

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Err that isn't how the system works. You simply don't name that player in your CL or Premier league squad.
....and if you omit a player from either of those squads, you can't play them in that competition until the next transfer window. You can't simply stockpile players and have them all at your disposal - unless they're all U21's.
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Offline Jm55

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Err that isn't how the system works. You simply don't name that player in your CL or Premier league squad.

These players are all on wages though, and worth sizeable fees.

The way we generate money to sign the players we sign is through self-sufficiency, we don’t have the dubious luxury of being able to fuck off a hundred million pounds worth of investment into the reserves because we want the squad space to sign someone else. We’ll either sell for what the club deems is the value (or close to it) or the player will stay and Klopp will work with them. Anyone who has paid any attention to Klopp over the last few years will know that he isn’t the type to use Mourinho tactics of ostracising players who he doesn’t want, and that kind of strategy doesn’t tend to do much for squad harmony.

All summer we were told from all the usual reliable journalists that we needed to sell several players (Origi being one) before more came in. That isn’t really what any of us wanted to hear so people chose not to believe it, we didn’t sell Origi, didn’t sign anyone and people still won’t have that the failure to sell him was the reason (and we’ll of course never know for sure so it’s always open to argument if you’re that way inclined).

I’ll say it again, if we end up with Mane and Salah missing for 8 games and nobody in the club picked up on the fact that this may happen in the summer, it’s probably going to go down as a fuck up which has cost us, however, that hasn’t happened yet, anyone claiming that we lost the match on Sunday due to some midfield crisis when we started the season with 8 midfielders (4 of whom were available) is off their heads.

Offline El Lobo

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I’m pretty sure Al would have absolutely nothing to say about the owners and Edwards if we had Origi, Keita and Ox sat gathering dust outside our PL/CL squads
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Offline jooneyisdagod

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Why is the discussion around what Klopp likes /wants to do? - bit off base isn't it?

Surely the question is whether our squad is fit for purpose or not and what we should do from here ?

Especially when it is all speculation. Who knows what Klopp is thinking in the depth of his mind!
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Offline Jookie

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Gaps need plugging in the first team and for the second season running, we’ve gone into a season under-resourced and with the squad in sub-optimal condition.


What are these obvious gaps you talk of?

Where are we under resourced? We have a 25 man squad.

Klopp surely has some part to play in squad building and decision making around this. I'll honestly say I've not heard Klopp complain about the squad or ability to spend. I've heard him comment about having less money than others. But actively going out there and complaining he's not being given what he wants? Last January is the only example I can think of where he's called out the club for not giving him what he wants.

If Klopp is continually saying he's not being given the resources he's required then it's passed me by and by the sounds if the British press too. Since I'm sure it would be a huge story if he had.

What I think the situation is, is that some fans don't like the composition of certain parts of our squad. But ratther than say they don't agree with Klopp it's easier to say he's stuck with these players due to the owners not putting up money to replace them. Maybe there's an element of truth in that. Equally there's a huge dollop of truth that Klopp's fingerprints are all over this squad and if you don't like the depth then you must surely think he shoulders some of the blame. If you think midfield is an issue then we have about 100M worth of players not making the 1st XI regularly in Keita, AoC and Thiago. We've probably spent another 40-50M on their wages in the last 3-4 seasons.

Who's fault is that?

Niw I donlt particalulrly have an issue with the squad composition. But those who do, where do you draw the line and think Klopp shoulders some of the blame given we've recruited virtually all these players under his leadership. Some at pretty high costs in terms of fees and wages.
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Online JackWard33

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Where in my post is the bit you've put in quotes? You've ignored the key point, which is 'players under contract'.

All clubs work within the limits of squad size, and you can't just stockpile new players unless another player is sold, out of contract, or goes out on loan. That's how it works and is why limits exist.

Posters saying things like 'we should have sold Ox/Keita/Origi/whoever, and get someone else' clearly don't understand the word contract. There's a reason that so many average players stick around at so many clubs for so long - it's because they can. You can't just say to a player mid-contract 'Thanks, but we've found someone better. Cheerio'.

Sure - you can only register so many players for a season I think everyone knows that.
But the idea players under contract aren't asked to move on and then moved on to upgrade the suqad is obviously not right.
It happens constantly in football - players are told to find another club, the vast majority towards the end of a season. Most of the time this will be done amicably and the club they play for will help - sometimes it isn't - but that's a normal process.
The vast majority of players that move clubs still move under contract rather than as free agents, every player that moves on loan does so under contract.

If you want to make argument that we had too much committed in wages to players and couldnt increase the wage bill anymore (for example) then I can buy that...or if you want to argue we were happy with all the squad members and didnt want to get new players in or couldn't upgrade them .. that's also an arugment ....  but the squad being full so we wanted to do something but couldnt is a nonsnense.

Online JackWard33

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Especially when it is all speculation. Who knows what Klopp is thinking in the depth of his mind!

Absolutely!!

Offline Dave McCoy

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Sure - you can only register so many players for a season I think everyone knows that.
But the idea players under contract aren't asked to move on and then moved on to upgrade the suqad is obviously not right.
It happens constantly in football - players are told to find another club, the vast majority towards the end of a season. Most of the time this will be done amicably and the club they play for will help - sometimes it isn't - but that's a normal process.
The vast majority of players that move clubs still move under contract rather than as free agents, every player that moves on loan does so under contract.

If you want to make argument that we had too much committed in wages to players and couldnt increase the wage bill anymore (for example) then I can buy that...or if you want to argue we were happy with all the squad members and didnt want to get new players in or couldn't upgrade them .. that's also an arugment ....  but the squad being full so we wanted to do something but couldnt is a nonsnense.

And yet it happens all the time where a player can't get offloaded for a variety of reasons and then alternative plans have to be made.  We know LFC had an accepted offer for Origi and he didn't want to go.    So to say that it's a fait accompli once the player is told just isn't true.   I'd argue in the last couple of years you're starting to see it more and more due to the stratification of the wages at the top end while also the willingness of players to move on a bosman seems to be increasing as well.

Offline Johnny Foreigner

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I’m pretty sure Al would have absolutely nothing to say about the owners and Edwards if we had Origi, Keita and Ox sat gathering dust outside our PL/CL squads

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I’m pretty sure Al would have absolutely nothing to say about the owners and Edwards if we had Origi, Keita and Ox sat gathering dust outside our PL/CL squads

That has got absolutely nothing to do with what I posted though has it. That is what you do though. Invent a comment someone hasn't made and the look to make snide comments about it.

I replied to a comment about there being rules to stop a club having too many players and that you have to sell a player before you can register another.
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