Author Topic: Churchill  (Read 35181 times)

Offline Gili Gulu

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Re: Churchill
« Reply #120 on: January 23, 2018, 03:30:26 am »
My understanding of the Bengal Famine is somewhat limited, but I have seen apologists for British policy at the time mention that each of the surrounding Indian Provinces were ruled by Indian National Congress governments, and each had a surplus of food that was not sent to Bengal to relieve the famine.
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Offline Sir Psycho Sexy

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Re: Churchill
« Reply #121 on: January 23, 2018, 04:00:50 am »
Well there's an urban myth in Liverpool that they left the lights on in Dublin so the Luftwaffe could find Liverpool. I'm sure that was deliberately spread by the Lodge though.
and also that Ireland allowed Nazi submarines dock on their west coast.
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Offline Geppvindh's

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Re: Churchill
« Reply #122 on: January 23, 2018, 04:55:23 am »
Hitler was racist towards Jews & Slavs and wanted the annihilation of left wing intellectuals, Churchill was racist towards Indians, Gandhi was racist towards Africans in South Africa and perpetuated casteism towards Dalits in India. This food chain does not stop anywhere. Of course, most Brits tend to appreciate Churchill's handling of WW2 more than criticize him for his genocidal methods in India and other colonies, because that's what is drummed into your heads in schools. Similar to how Gandhi, Nehru and co are deified in India textbooks, despite their fervently anti-lower caste stance and continued suppression of the untouchables, perpetuating policies and practices that last to this day in India. So what can we do? Read. Read more and understand the shades of these characters and be informed. So while it is natural to glorify Churchill and Gandhi and various other grey characters in history for their pivotal role in being on the right side of history due to the way information reaches us, it is important to staying informed of their fallacies and placing that * against their names for other tyrannies.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2018, 05:01:43 am by Gerrvindh »

Offline SP

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Re: Churchill
« Reply #123 on: January 23, 2018, 08:30:54 am »
They were shipping rice and wheat OUT of India! The food produced by the Indians could not be eaten by them.
It is a genocide because they were well aware that problems were occurring, but they refused to fix.
they had MANY opportunities to feed their Indian subjects, but they didn't do it. So it is not accidental, let us say that.


Bengal was marginally self sufficient in food even in a good year, and was generally reliant food imports from other Indian provinces. Inflation and the collapse of the inter provincial food trade killed the domestic supply option. There was sufficient food in India to prevent a famine, just it was in the wrong provinces.

Churchill’s actions exacerbated the famine, but his was one of multiple failings that lead to the tragic events. There are a few posters indulging in neat diatribes rather than acknowledging that real history is not neatly packaged with single causes. Callous indifference to the plight of millions is far more credible than the shouts of wilful genocide.

Offline DangerScouse

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Re: Churchill
« Reply #124 on: January 23, 2018, 07:53:26 pm »
Intentionally trying to destroy a race or people? That definition of genocide?

Well Churchill was being told constantly by Leo Amery that a famine would soon happen/ was happening, and they were frequently being asked for food by the British administrators (like Amery) of India. So if he were to put two and two together, he might have realized that withholding wheat shipments from Indians would lead them to die. So would that make it intentional?

Or can I just call him a mass murderer?

Despicable, racist, murdering tyrant would be more apt.

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Re: Churchill
« Reply #125 on: January 23, 2018, 08:00:01 pm »
Despicable, racist, murdering tyrant would be more apt.

If you were British and, say 25, in 1940, what would you have done? And why?

1) Supported the government led by a "despicable, racist, murdering tyrant", joined the armed forces and fought Hitler.

2) Refused to fight and become a conscientious objector.

3) Gone into exile and fought for the Wehrmacht against the "despicable, racist, murdering tyrant".

4) Something else.
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Re: Churchill
« Reply #126 on: January 23, 2018, 09:01:59 pm »
and also that Ireland allowed Nazi submarines dock on their west coast.
Yeah, that's not the only one. I heard the one (funily enough the same shite but different location) about how the IRA only lit up the Falls Road in Belfast to direct the Luftwaffe to drop its bombs on the city centre and the docks. They must not have got that memo, as they dropped their bombs on half of the Falls. Urban myth? More like urban bollocks.

Offline Sir Psycho Sexy

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Re: Churchill
« Reply #127 on: January 24, 2018, 12:06:35 am »
Yeah, that's not the only one. I heard the one (funily enough the same shite but different location) about how the IRA only lit up the Falls Road in Belfast to direct the Luftwaffe to drop its bombs on the city centre and the docks. They must not have got that memo, as they dropped their bombs on half of the Falls. Urban myth? More like urban bollocks.
See, there seems to be debate on this, but I remember my A level teacher saying this, and then a professor say it in a class in one of my lectures (he was Scottish before we go anywhere).

I suppose anything can become truth if it's repeated enough, but I'd be surprised if it managed to get those who are meant to teach this sort of stuff convinced.

Never heard the other one until this thread FWIW.
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Offline Zeb

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Re: Churchill
« Reply #128 on: January 24, 2018, 01:06:21 am »
How do you feel Amery's accounts of Churchill match up with the likes of Alan Brooke's Shook? In particular the explosive and intemperate first thought noted down in diaries in comparison to the documented orders issued and actions taken. Is that recollection by Amery from October/November 1943? If so then we're only just after Wavell being made Viceroy with the explicit order (from Churchill) to address the food shortages by any means at his disposal - and at the expense of military action if needed. There's a larger context which seems lost in that snippet you've quoted there.
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Re: Churchill
« Reply #129 on: January 24, 2018, 01:22:27 am »
How do you feel Amery's accounts of Churchill match up with the likes of Alan Brooke's Shook? In particular the explosive and intemperate first thought noted down in diaries in comparison to the documented orders issued and actions taken. Is that recollection by Amery from October/November 1943? If so then we're only just after Wavell being made Viceroy with the explicit order (from Churchill) to address the food shortages by any means at his disposal - and at the expense of military action if needed. There's a larger context which seems lost in that snippet you've quoted there.
Yeah, ive read a lot of conflicting evidence as well and you need all the facts to understand what actually happened, Churchills critics can argue he took 50.000 tons of rice and sent it to Ceylon and that's it, so what happened to the rice.why was it sent.

Again trying to help, the Cabinet suggested that India had underestimated its rice crop. While agreeing to send the 200,000 tons, Churchill told Amery he could get another 150,000 tons from Ceylon in exchange for excess rice: “The net effect, counting 50,000 tons previously arranged [was] 400,000 tons of wheat.”
https://winstonchurchill.hillsdale.edu/did-churchill-cause-the-bengal-famine/
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Offline Nobby Reserve

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Re: Churchill
« Reply #130 on: January 24, 2018, 03:41:47 pm »
I'm certainly not a Churchill hagiographer but at least miners in this country could continue to strike.

Well, the ones he ordered* shot didn't have that choice.


* granted, there are doubts he actually gave a specific order to shoot dead striking miners, when he sent armed troops to South Wales to break a the strike


Anyway, I'm torn here. He played an immense role he played in WW2, and I doubt any other politician of the time would/could have remained so doggedly single-minded enough to accomplish what Churchill did, in solidifying the nation to oppose the Third Reich. Worth remembering that many of his toff friends and peers would gladly have embraced Hitler - including that c*nt Edward Windsor.

But we shouldn't ignore that he was responsible both for some shocking blunders and, much more importantly, for some indefensibly barbaric and terrible acts against his fellow men.

He was an unreconstructed snob, with the arrogant belief that his ilk - aristocratic white men - had some divine right to lord it over all others, whose purpose is merely to serve their 'betters'. But then, it's likely that these characteristics played a huge part of his stoicism, which was vital during our 'darkest hours'.
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Offline J_Kopite

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Re: Churchill
« Reply #131 on: January 24, 2018, 03:51:35 pm »
Anyway, I'm torn here. He played an immense role he played in WW2, and I doubt any other politician of the time would/could have remained so doggedly single-minded enough to accomplish what Churchill did, in solidifying the nation to oppose the Third Reich. Worth remembering that many of his toff friends and peers would gladly have embraced Hitler - including that c*nt Edward Windsor.

But we shouldn't ignore that he was responsible both for some shocking blunders and, much more importantly, for some indefensibly barbaric and terrible acts against his fellow men.

He was an unreconstructed snob, with the arrogant belief that his ilk - aristocratic white men - had some divine right to lord it over all others, whose purpose is merely to serve their 'betters'. But then, it's likely that these characteristics played a huge part of his stoicism, which was vital during our 'darkest hours'.

You’ve expressed that superbly, so much better than I ever could have.

I’m sure it’s no coincidence that this is the way I feel too ;D

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Re: Churchill
« Reply #132 on: January 24, 2018, 07:16:07 pm »
I'm pleased that since Brexit it seems finally a conversation has begun in Britain about your colonial history and the atrocities carried out by your fellow countrymen past and recent past.

Germany after WWII had to face up to their's, they had no other choice. Maybe Britain can now start to do the same in the face of the blind nationalism and naked xenophobia that has bubbled to the surface to the detriment of your nation internally and it's standing on the world stage.

Offline So… Howard Philips

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Re: Churchill
« Reply #133 on: January 24, 2018, 07:32:00 pm »
I'm pleased that since Brexit it seems finally a conversation has begun in Britain about your colonial history and the atrocities carried out by your fellow countrymen past and recent past.

Germany after WWII had to face up to their's, they had no other choice. Maybe Britain can now start to do the same in the face of the blind nationalism and naked xenophobia that has bubbled to the surface to the detriment of your nation internally and it's standing on the world stage.

There's a valid argument that Liverpool, and the port in particular, profited not only from the slave trade but all the trade generated through the use of slave labour, such as the importation of cotton, tobacco and sugar.

Without "the trade" we wouldn't have thriving docks or, for instance Tate and Lyle. Taking the argument further inland Manchester and Lancashire wouldn't have the cotton mills either.

When the slave trade was abolished Liverpool had well established links with Africa, for obvious reasons, and shipping lines used those links to develop business all along the West Coast of Africa.

So it may be that those of us with roots in Liverpool who have benefited from working in shipping, at sea and on the docks have indirectly benefitted from slavery. A sobering thought.

Offline Jiminy Cricket

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Re: Churchill
« Reply #134 on: January 24, 2018, 07:37:47 pm »
I'm pleased that since Brexit it seems finally a conversation has begun in Britain about your colonial history and the atrocities carried out by your fellow countrymen past and recent past.

Germany after WWII had to face up to their's, they had no other choice. Maybe Britain can now start to do the same in the face of the blind nationalism and naked xenophobia that has bubbled to the surface to the detriment of your nation internally and it's standing on the world stage.

There is always a skewed perspective depending upon whether or not you are the victor or the defeated. (History is written by the victors. ~ W. Churchill.). Losing can cause populations to take a hard look at their society and what they did collectively - I agree that this did take place in Germany. Churchill was always going to be hailed in the UK, being on the winning side of WWII.

I don't know why people are tying up themselves in knots over this. Churchill was a very useful and effective wartime leader. He was also a monumental asshole. Some of that might be down to him being a 'product of his time and class', but there were clearly good and progressive thinking people around at the time. But, as J_Kopite suggested above, it is probable that those deep flaws in his character were very same qualities which made him a great wartime leader. Surely enough time has passed for British citizens to look at this dispassionately and concentrate on the facts. But, as I wrote earlier in this thread, it is completely understandable why those more personally affected by the negative aspects of Churchill's character will concentrate on the very serious negatives.

Anyway, I'd have no problem watching a movie about Churchill and his wartime leadership. It is not meant to be all encompassing biography. If some people viewing the film never look/consider anything about Churchill outside of the wartime years, there is nothing I can do about that. Within reason, the idea that of throwing out most kinds of information and entertainment simply because they do not fully conform to a particular doctrine feels too purist to me.
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Re: Churchill
« Reply #135 on: January 24, 2018, 07:47:13 pm »
There's a valid argument that Liverpool, and the port in particular, profited not only from the slave trade but all the trade generated through the use of slave labour, such as the importation of cotton, tobacco and sugar.

Without "the trade" we wouldn't have thriving docks or, for instance Tate and Lyle. Taking the argument further inland Manchester and Lancashire wouldn't have the cotton mills either.

When the slave trade was abolished Liverpool had well established links with Africa, for obvious reasons, and shipping lines used those links to develop business all along the West Coast of Africa.

So it may be that those of us with roots in Liverpool who have benefited from working in shipping, at sea and on the docks have indirectly benefitted from slavery. A sobering thought.
Ive never looked at it that way. people say Liverpool should apologize for it's part in the slave trade. I look at the same period and look at how people lived, the ordinary man living in a slum trying to survive. the rich and powerful didn't just screw the empire,they also screwed the working class, ive never felt the need to apologize for their policies.
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Offline WhereAngelsPlay

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Re: Churchill
« Reply #136 on: January 24, 2018, 08:50:14 pm »


Here is an example of Churchill rejecting the plea to send more help during the famine, which meant more people died directly because of a decision he made - callous indifference is for outside observers, not the prime minister!

Quote
    "did not care what the House thought in this matter. The thing was to win the war."

And that is wrong how exactly ?

The country was on the brink of invasion and under a constant barrage of bombs ffs.Had Britain fallen before the Americans decided to do the right thing then the new world would've been next.
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Offline WhereAngelsPlay

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Re: Churchill
« Reply #137 on: January 24, 2018, 08:51:42 pm »
Ive never looked at it that way. people say Liverpool should apologize for it's part in the slave trade. I look at the same period and look at how people lived, the ordinary man living in a slum trying to survive. the rich and powerful didn't just screw the empire,they also screwed the working class, ive never felt the need to apologize for their policies.

Is right.
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Offline Zeb

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Re: Churchill
« Reply #138 on: January 24, 2018, 10:09:46 pm »
If anyone is interested in some of the more recent work on Empire coming out of British universities, Kim Wagner's The Skull of Alum Bheg is very good. It's currently on a flash sale for £12.50 (click through to checkout to see if it's still on offer - it was when I posted this) with free postage. http://www.hurstpublishers.com/book/skull-alum-bheg/#!/
« Last Edit: January 24, 2018, 10:13:47 pm by Zeb »
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Offline Djozer

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Re: Churchill
« Reply #139 on: January 24, 2018, 10:46:45 pm »
I'm pleased that since Brexit it seems finally a conversation has begun in Britain about your colonial history and the atrocities carried out by your fellow countrymen past and recent past.

Germany after WWII had to face up to their's, they had no other choice. Maybe Britain can now start to do the same in the face of the blind nationalism and naked xenophobia that has bubbled to the surface to the detriment of your nation internally and it's standing on the world stage.
To be fair mate, that conversation's been ongoing for years, as far as I can tell, although maybe I only think that because I move in predominantly liberal circles. There is certainly an undercurrent of the "blind nationalism and naked xenophobia" that has always been there and is at least partially responsible for the Brexit farce - and the people who exhibit these feelings most strongly are often the ones who will lionise Churchill - but I think there's been an acknowledgement for many years that Britain was responsible for some truly shocking acts during its colonial past.

It seems reasonable to me that both sides of Churchill are known. Perhaps he deserves far more credit than I initially gave him for his war effort, and maybe we would all be speaking German if it weren't for him (though I have my doubts), but I personally will never regard him as a hero. Many do though, and not just the Daily Mail mouthbreathers, and that's fine, although hopefully those who put him on a pedestal will also take the time to examine his prewar activities. As several in this very thread have said though, in many ways he was simply a product of his time, and it's entirely possible that the callous ruthlessness of his character made him such an effective wartime leader.

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Re: Churchill
« Reply #140 on: January 24, 2018, 11:49:11 pm »
I'm pleased that since Brexit it seems finally a conversation has begun in Britain about your colonial history and the atrocities carried out by your fellow countrymen past and recent past.

It’s been going on for years! Where the hell have you been  :D

In fact it was happening contemporaneously. Anti-colonialism as an idea and a movement were ingrained in British society almost as soon as colonialism was established. There is almost no British imperialist atrocity that didn’t produce its outraged critics and opponents, and even official government inquiries almost immediately (not all of which whitewashed the perpetrators). From the East India Company and the Slave Trade to the Black and Tans and the Amritsar Massacre to Hola and Suez. We have faced our history - good and bad - squarely in this country, and the critics of imperialism have never been short of public megaphones to make their case. And most certainly our anti-imperialist historians have never had trouble finding an audience - in the schools and universities, in the book trade, through newspapers and periodicals, through the BBC. Probably no country has subjected its imperialist adventures and colonialist past to as much scrutiny as Britain has. It’s part of what makes us British.
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Offline Xabi Gerrard

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Re: Churchill
« Reply #141 on: January 25, 2018, 08:10:44 am »
It’s been going on for years! Where the hell have you been  :D

In fact it was happening contemporaneously. Anti-colonialism as an idea and a movement were ingrained in British society almost as soon as colonialism was established. There is almost no British imperialist atrocity that didn’t produce its outraged critics and opponents, and even official government inquiries almost immediately (not all of which whitewashed the perpetrators). From the East India Company and the Slave Trade to the Black and Tans and the Amritsar Massacre to Hola and Suez. We have faced our history - good and bad - squarely in this country, and the critics of imperialism have never been short of public megaphones to make their case. And most certainly our anti-imperialist historians have never had trouble finding an audience - in the schools and universities, in the book trade, through newspapers and periodicals, through the BBC. Probably no country has subjected its imperialist adventures and colonialist past to as much scrutiny as Britain has. It’s part of what makes us British.

Terrible things we've done in the past certainly aren't a secret in Britain, or hidden from the public, but you massively overplay how much exposure they get. Yes, it's discussed amongst left leaning intellectuals, yes its discussed by leftie students, yes it's discussed on obscure BBC2 or BBC4 documentaries with minimal viewing figures, that is all true.

But if you think most of our country are exposed to the horrible things we've done you're sadly mistaken - it's not taught in schools (certainly not in the 80s or 90s when I was a kid) and the sad truth is, most people just don't care to find out - Mo Salah and Paul Pogba's fitness and what the royals and Kim Kardashian have been up to are of much more interest. We're sadly not a nation of left leaning, Orwell reading intellectuals.


And as for no other country facing up their past as much as we have, surely Germany? No man, woman or child is left with any doubt whatsoever about what their grandparents & great grandparents were getting up to in the 30s & 40s. You can't say the same about Brits.

Offline Geppvindh's

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Re: Churchill
« Reply #142 on: January 25, 2018, 09:02:25 am »
And as for no other country facing up their past as much as we have, surely Germany? No man, woman or child is left with any doubt whatsoever about what their grandparents & great grandparents were getting up to in the 30s & 40s. You can't say the same about Brits.

Germany and Japan I think are well ahead of Britain in that regard.

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Re: Churchill
« Reply #143 on: January 25, 2018, 09:06:21 am »
Germany and Japan I think are well ahead of Britain in that regard.

He was specific about colonialism. The Axis powers have faced up to the actions of a particular regime - defeat forced that upon them - wider colonialism not so much.

Offline Xabi Gerrard

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Re: Churchill
« Reply #144 on: January 25, 2018, 09:08:48 am »
Germany and Japan I think are well ahead of Britain in that regard.

Aren't the Japanese still in denial about a lot of their crimes in WW2?

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Re: Churchill
« Reply #145 on: January 25, 2018, 09:10:13 am »
It’s been going on for years! Where the hell have you been  :D
Recently the lack of knowledge on the basic historical flash points of Ireland north and south from media and more worryingly elected officials would suggest otherwise. I mean the Irish public knew we were a bit of an afterthought but were left gobsmacked to the true extant.

In academic circles and as someone else said among more liberally minded people I'm sure it is discussed but this needs to be common knowledge. 

Offline Geppvindh's

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Re: Churchill
« Reply #146 on: January 25, 2018, 09:27:10 am »
He was specific about colonialism. The Axis powers have faced up to the actions of a particular regime - defeat forced that upon them - wider colonialism not so much.

Agreed, I may not have read the OP well.

Aren't the Japanese still in denial about a lot of their crimes in WW2?

There have been apologies and statements of repentance from various Japanese heads of state for their WW2 atrocities and imperialism. Don't think any British head of state has ever issued an apology for colonization. Happy to be corrected.

Offline J_Kopite

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« Last Edit: January 25, 2018, 09:45:42 am by J_Kopite »

Offline Geppvindh's

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Re: Churchill
« Reply #148 on: January 25, 2018, 10:17:09 am »

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Re: Churchill
« Reply #149 on: January 25, 2018, 10:42:40 am »
He was specific about colonialism. The Axis powers have faced up to the actions of a particular regime - defeat forced that upon them - wider colonialism not so much.

Indeed. Those posters may be surprised about how little is known in Germany still about the genocide of the Herero and Namaqua peoples in German South-West Africa - this was the deliberate murder of hundreds of thousands in the space of a few months. German colonialism in Africa under the Kaiser was of a different order of brutality to any other nation’s, Belgium apart. But the story is apparently not widely known in Germany.

I defer to no one in my admiration for how modern-day Germany has dealt with the historical legacy of Nazism. But it’s also obvious to me that this was a lesson that badly needed learning after millions were dead and Europe lay in ruins in 1945. There is simply nothing comparable to the Nazis in the admittedly deplorable annals of British colonialism.

As for the poster who claimed Japan as an example of how to deal with its imperialist past and its record in World War Two, all I can ask is ‘are you sure?’ The best that can said about it is that they have simply forgotten it and moved on. That’s no mean achievement. But the idea that generations of Japanese schoolchildren have been reared on stories about the Rape of Nankin, the slavery of Korean women, the aggression at Pearl Harbor and wartime atrocities against Allied soldiers is a joke.

As for Britain, there is a generalised ignorance about the British empire - which is not confined to the atrocities (which, actually, through blockbuster films like Gandhi) are probably better known than its achievements. But there always was ignorance, even at its apex. Most Brits thought of the Empire as something in town where you went to see the flicks.

When colonised nations began to assert their freedom and independence in the late 1950s and 1960s no one in Britain itself tried to stop them. There was no Algeria and no Vietnam. And from the 1960s onwards generations of British youth learnt about the horrors and injustices of  Apartheid in South Africa (not British any more of course) through demonstrations, the boycott movement, concerts at Wembley etc. ANC exiles rocked up in London for several reasons, but the level of political consciousness among the home population about racism and injustice in South Africa was one of them.
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Offline J_Kopite

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Re: Churchill
« Reply #150 on: January 25, 2018, 10:54:35 am »
Thank you for these. Must admit I did not really know about any of this, it's been fairly educational. Thanks, again.

No problem, I do love and greatly admire Japanese culture and Japanese people but there's a massive problem with the historical revisionism about their past crimes. "Comfort women" in particular are not ever likely to see justice or even acknowledgement because of this denial and its sickening.

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Re: Churchill
« Reply #151 on: January 25, 2018, 11:12:35 am »
Don't think any British head of state has ever issued an apology for colonization. Happy to be corrected.

It's my understanding that the Spanish have never apologised for the continental colonialism, rape and genocide that they caused either. I don't know how one is supposed to go about doing that (including the British here too) in terms of an apology but I would presume that just saying 'sorry guys, we didn't know any better back then' wouldn't suffice.

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Re: Churchill
« Reply #152 on: January 25, 2018, 11:16:51 am »
There have been apologies and statements of repentance from various Japanese heads of state for their WW2 atrocities and imperialism. Don't think any British head of state has ever issued an apology for colonization. Happy to be corrected.

Blair would not stop apologising and pardoning dead people.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/blair-issues-apology-for-irish-potato-famine-1253790.html

Offline Xabi Gerrard

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Re: Churchill
« Reply #153 on: January 25, 2018, 11:18:59 am »
Indeed. Those posters may be surprised about how little is known in Germany still about the genocide of the Herero and Namaqua peoples in German South-West Africa - this was the deliberate murder of hundreds of thousands in the space of a few months. German colonialism in Africa under the Kaiser was of a different order of brutality to any other nation’s, Belgium apart. But the story is apparently not widely known in Germany.

I defer to no one in my admiration for how modern-day Germany has dealt with the historical legacy of Nazism. But it’s also obvious to me that this was a lesson that badly needed learning after millions were dead and Europe lay in ruins in 1945. There is simply nothing comparable to the Nazis in the admittedly deplorable annals of British colonialism.

As for the poster who claimed Japan as an example of how to deal with its imperialist past and its record in World War Two, all I can ask is ‘are you sure?’ The best that can said about it is that they have simply forgotten it and moved on. That’s no mean achievement. But the idea that generations of Japanese schoolchildren have been reared on stories about the Rape of Nankin, the slavery of Korean women, the aggression at Pearl Harbor and wartime atrocities against Allied soldiers is a joke.

As for Britain, there is a generalised ignorance about the British empire - which is not confined to the atrocities (which, actually, through blockbuster films like Gandhi) are probably better known than its achievements. But there always was ignorance, even at its apex. Most Brits thought of the Empire as something in town where you went to see the flicks.

When colonised nations began to assert their freedom and independence in the late 1950s and 1960s no one in Britain itself tried to stop them. There was no Algeria and no Vietnam. And from the 1960s onwards generations of British youth learnt about the horrors and injustices of  Apartheid in South Africa (not British any more of course) through demonstrations, the boycott movement, concerts at Wembley etc. ANC exiles rocked up in London for several reasons, but the level of political consciousness among the home population about racism and injustice in South Africa was one of them.

I don't think people associate Mandela with our colonialism (apartheid, of course, being instated long after South African independence).

Gandhi's a fair example although I think, despite its critical acclaim and awards, significantly more Brits haven't seen the film than have. I think a much better example of a film that resonates with the average Brit's psyche would be Zulu, with the colonialist Brits cast as the plucky heroes up against the native savages. That, I think, better captures how most Brits* see the empire - "the sun never sets", "ruling the waves", "bringing law and order", etc. All the bad stuff? Just seen as a footnote. Bit like how we see Churchill actually (to bring it back on topic).

I say "most Brits" - as I mentioned earlier, most Brits don't actually give a fuck. But for those who are aware of the empire, that's how most perceive it.

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Re: Churchill
« Reply #154 on: January 25, 2018, 11:29:11 am »
That, I think, better captures how most Brits* see the empire - "the sun never sets", "ruling the waves", "bringing law and order", etc....But for those who are aware of the empire, that's how most perceive it.

This is pure assertion I think. Or do you have some evidence?
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Re: Churchill
« Reply #155 on: January 25, 2018, 11:33:22 am »
This is pure assertion I think. Or do you have some evidence?

No that's true, just like all of us giving our opinions on how nations as a whole look back on their past atrocities, it'll always come down to pure assertion.

I do get the impression though that you think the country as a whole is a lot more politically aware and take a greater interest in balanced historical research than it actually is. In my opinion.

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Re: Churchill
« Reply #156 on: January 25, 2018, 12:43:31 pm »
I don't think people associate Mandela with our colonialism (apartheid, of course, being instated long after South African independence).

Gandhi's a fair example although I think, despite its critical acclaim and awards, significantly more Brits haven't seen the film than have. I think a much better example of a film that resonates with the average Brit's psyche would be Zulu, with the colonialist Brits cast as the plucky heroes up against the native savages. That, I think, better captures how most Brits* see the empire - "the sun never sets", "ruling the waves", "bringing law and order", etc. All the bad stuff? Just seen as a footnote. Bit like how we see Churchill actually (to bring it back on topic).

I say "most Brits" - as I mentioned earlier, most Brits don't actually give a fuck. But for those who are aware of the empire, that's how most perceive it.

Zulu was at one end of the spectrum but Zulu Dawn dealt with some of the political background to the Zulu wars.

Having said that the Zulus did a pretty good job of subjugating their less warlike neighbours.

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Re: Churchill
« Reply #157 on: January 25, 2018, 03:48:23 pm »
The nation isn’t so great when looking back on our history of colonialism.

We don’t even teach it in schools.  That’s not really a good thing...
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Re: Churchill
« Reply #158 on: January 25, 2018, 04:03:06 pm »
The nation isn’t so great when looking back on our history of colonialism.

We don’t even teach it in schools.  That’s not really a good thing...

That's my impression, although it's obviously difficult to measure. It seems to me most British people, and particularly English people, have no clue about Ireland's history. That's fine and dandy in and of itself, but when you take into account that Britain looms over Irish history, it's a little concerning. Mind you, I don't think they spend a whole lot of time in American schools on how they all wiped out the Natives....

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Re: Churchill
« Reply #159 on: January 25, 2018, 04:10:13 pm »
Blair would not stop apologising and pardoning dead people.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/blair-issues-apology-for-irish-potato-famine-1253790.html

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