Topic: Terrorism in the UK - The Wider Context

[ToneLa]

 I'm not arsed apportioning blame to groups yet as it's still pending and the victim count is rising and rising 

I'm happy to just label the perpetrator as a mass murdering evil psychopath and leave any religious element to when my news feed isn't utterly clogged with depressing news. It's a day for the victims. Arguably in a perfect world, those who do this wouldn't get exposure, though good luck with that.

The Atlantic have some good articles on ISIS in particular, I recommend this for a balanced view:

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isis-really-wants/384980/

[kennedy81]

And people don't suffer post traumatic stress from being racially abused on the street? People, just like you and me, who leave the house to live their normal lives. Only to be confronted by whoever. One day, it's just abuse. On another, it's a beating. On another, it could be a stabbing.

You think these people don't live in fear in their own communities? You think being abused by people who you relate to as your 'own' community (in the case of my mate), isn't going to lead to some level of anxiety? Fearfulness?

I understand that post may not be directed towards me, and I've never once stated if one is worse than the other. Both have it hard and you can't quantify between the two, everyone is different.

You're right, I wasn't aiming it at you. I was responding to this drivel;

"It's so sad that somebody can do that," he said. He added: "The people who will be the most afraid because of what he did... will be real Muslims, members of the real faith who don't believe in violence."

Guy Garvey

Which is frankly insulting to anyone who has ever been caught up in a bombing. Of course I sympathize with innocent people being abused for no reason. I was on the end of it myself as an Irish person working in England during the early 90s. And no, I didn't suffer from PTSD as a result.

[TheShanklyGates]

literally nobody thinks every muslim is to blame.

I'm pretty sure you're wrong about that unfortunately given some of the utter bile I've seen being spewed today.

[zip]

That just giving campaign is up to £265,348

The show of support is boss and the amount of care shown by real people is heartbreaking in a GOOD way 

https://www.justgiving.com/crowdfunding/westandtogethermanchester

Just donated. I'm not from the UK myself but it's a country I keep close to my heart and if something happens there, it is as if it happened here. It's heartbreaking and absolutely sickening. My thoughts are with the families and all those affected. There is always light in the darkness and that light is all the people coming together to help out those in need, it is brilliant to see. You will emerge stronger.

All the very best to all involved,
Kristo from Estonia

[El Denzel Pepito]

You're right, I wasn't aiming it at you. I was responding to this drivel;

"It's so sad that somebody can do that," he said. He added: "The people who will be the most afraid because of what he did... will be real Muslims, members of the real faith who don't believe in violence."

Guy Garvey

Which is frankly insulting to anyone who has ever been caught up in a bombing. Of course I sympathize with innocent people being abused for no reason. I was on the end of it myself as an Irish person working in England during the early 90s. And no, I didn't suffer from PTSD as a result.

Aye, my step dad is Irish and lived in England during the 80s/90s. He had a lot of shite go on with him, so I guess I'm more sensitive to the subject of innocent people being abused over something a larger group did.

The only thing I'd change about that quote is 'the people who will be the most afraid', to 'we must consider real Muslims... etc'. Don't think anyone has a right to say who the most afraid are. Following this attack, families will be afraid, innocent Muslims/people from ethnic minorities will be afraid, victims will be afraid, hell even our government will be afraid.

[wemmick]

Good post. First part of fixing any problem is admitting the problem exists.

But on whose part? It's hard to imagine that the Muslim community in the U.K or U.S. (where I'm at) is somehow unaware of the problem or in denial of it. But those communities are also not culturally homogeneous. Similar to Christians. Why the hell would a Southern Baptist apologize and admit that there's a fundamental problem with Christianity on behalf of a crazy-ass group of Anglicans with whom they no immediate relationship? I think our perception of the people involved needs to narrow significantly to have a productive conversation about who is at fault and what must be done about it.       

RIP to the victims and deepest condolences to the families.

[kennedy81]

Aye, my step dad is Irish and lived in England during the 80s/90s. He had a lot of shite go on with him, so I guess I'm more sensitive to the subject of innocent people being abused over something a larger group did.

The only thing I'd change about that quote is 'the people who will be the most afraid', to 'we must consider real Muslims... etc'. Don't think anyone has a right to say who the most afraid are. Following this attack, families will be afraid, innocent Muslims/people from ethnic minorities will be afraid, victims will be afraid, hell even our government will be afraid.

Fair points.

[4pool]

The issue becomes very circular.

Don't blame everyone of a particular religion, yet a group from that religion is fighting with terror.

They fight because of their hatred for the "West".

Both sides can talk about atrocities and tragedies against each other. Which fuels each side.

Most "wars" throughout history stop when one side wins and the other capitulates. And that's the problem with this "war" on terror. There isn't enough public opinion to do what is necessary to stop the madness.

So this will go on for some time. And we become somewhat immune to it until it strikes locally to us.

Just my 2p worth.

[Purple Red]

I can understand both sides of the argument about the responsibilities of the Muslim community in the aftermath of such attacks. It must be remembered that the Muslim community in the UK itself is not monolithic nor is there anyway real consensus on what it means to be a British Muslim. Like all faiths and belief systems, there are those who take it more seriously than others. It's similar to Christianity in this way. There is a world of difference between pulpit thumping American Evangelicals and British Anglican pensioners who wander to church on a Sunday morning. This alludes to another key difference: nationality and ethnicity. British Muslim's with African heritage are going to think differently to those with Asian heritage. I am by no means an expert but it would be reasonable to assume that British Muslims descended from Iran/Iraq Muslims may have different opinions. Age is also a factor.

Consequently, it is dangerous to second guess what the attitude of British Muslims are whenever you consider the vast, diverse nature of the community. Are there British Muslims who sympathise with this cruel, 'Holy War'? Absolutely. Are there British Muslims who loath and detest Islamic terrorism as a stain on our society? Most certainly. Do both these types know much about the other or interact frequently? That I am less sure of. Islamic fundamentalism is a brand of extremism that many keep very quiet about for security. It is well documented how little is actually known about the ideology of the individuals that are usually found responsible for the attacks. Very many people are closed books when it comes to their politics. We can't expect members of the Islamic community to know everything about everybody's ideology. Especially when the most devoted extremists considering terrorism will got out of their way to be discreet in the interests of success.

On the other hand, when you are part of a community that is occasionally involved in terrorism not everybody is ignorant. To use the Northern Ireland example, members of both the Protestant and Catholic communities kept their lips sealed about loyalist and republican paramilitary activity throughout the Troubles. For every active 'civilian' collaborator, there were many passive ones whose piecemeal knowledge and suspicions were rarely communicated to the authorities. To this day it remains a live issue in NI politics, many unsolved murders are unsolved because either the unionist community or republican community refuse to be forthcoming. Remember being a member of the paramilitaries is illegal and yet many people knew UVF/IRA men and didn't think to inform the police.

This doesn't mean that these people were enthusiastic supporters of the actions of terrorists. Fear is a great motivator. Being an informant was incredibly dangerous. The IRA murdered countless people for going to the police. As a result people were too scared to pass on information as they feared for themselves and their families. Even those who suspected something was going on recognised the risks of reporting mere suspicions. It's not that people were ignorant of anything going on - everybody (and this applies to the Islamic community) knows of a weirdo or idiot who has extreme views. Some may even see suspicious evidence that suggests they could be a threat to public safety. However, it's an incredibly intimidating prospect to inform the police that you are suspicious that a neighbour could be contemplating a horrific act. What if you're wrong? Sometimes it's easier to think that somebody else will be responsible - the powers that be or whoever.

All said and done, the point here is that we need to take a balanced view about the role and responsibility of the Islamic community in the UK following these attacks. Most right thinking people are sensible enough to realise that these attacks are not representative of the community as whole. The abysmal human beings that engage in these acts are a tiny minority of our multicultural country. The vast majority of Muslims will be equally as broken hearted as everybody else is today. Nonetheless, the Islamic community is in a better position than the rest of us to pick up on things that could be sinister. Muslims understand Islam and as a result can identify worrisome interpretations. Muslims tend to be the dominant population in the areas where these evil people come from - there is a higher chance they might see suspicious activity.

I am by no means suggesting that the Islamic community has all the answers. The lion's share of the responsibility for protecting this country from attack lies with the government, police, intelligence services etc. However, leaders in the Islamic community, following their commendable condemnations, need to have a serious dialogue about if the community can be doing more. They have a rich religious culture, history and their contribution to the UK is magnificent. They cannot allow lone wolf idiots to tarnish that, especially if there is more the community could be doing.

[zero zero]

Most "wars" throughout history stop when one side wins and the other capitulates. And that's the problem with this "war" on terror. There isn't enough public opinion to do what is necessary to stop the madness.

What exactly does "do what is necessary to stop the madness" mean?

[4pool]

What exactly does "do what is necessary to stop the madness" mean?

You tell me. In your opinion what would virtually stop ISIS or ISIL?

[DerKaiser]

Telling members of the Muslim community to apologize for the crimes of a minority faction is the type of stuff you hear from Tommy Robinson and his band of knuckles draggers I'm afraid. However, there does need to be recognition of the very fact that above all else this is a religous problem. The type of dogmatism, that justifies one to blow themselves up in the midst of innocent civilians, unfortunately can only be seen in relation to Islam.

[Cliff Bastin]

You tell me. In your opinion what would virtually stop ISIS or ISIL?

Better online monitoring, give the security services the access to do so. Hate preachers in mosques to be prosecuted when caught advocating for murder of 'infidels'. Lots of things you can do domestically to combat ISIS. More resources needed for the security services. Stop cutting funding! Put more money into them.

[johnybarnes]

What exactly does "do what is necessary to stop the madness" mean?

Nuke dem browns probably.

[zero zero]

You tell me. In your opinion what would virtually stop ISIS or ISIL?

Daesh can be and will be defeated on the battlefield. The Peshmergas would do it, but you'd have to give them a country at the end of it. Not popular with Iraq, Syria or Turkey.

Random terrorist acts won't stop, which is what I thought we were discussing.

[thejbs]

literally nobody thinks every muslim is to blame.

I know that. But there is a sentiment among a sizeable amount of people in our country that: 'this is why we need to close our borders' (even though he'll probably end up being a Brit) or 'the Muslim community should apologise.'

[thejbs]

Better online monitoring, give the security services the access to do so. Hate preachers in mosques to be prosecuted when caught advocating for murder of 'infidels'. Lots of things you can do domestically to combat ISIS. More resources needed for the security services. Stop cutting funding! Put more money into them.

How far do those powers extend before they're abused? 

[The North Bank]

 There is no such thing as a Muslim community, we live in a country that doesnt pigeon hole people and stick them in ghettos according to their religion, there are probably a few million Muslims in this country, with different backgrounds, different languages, different cultures, different ethnicity, different religious beliefs and sects, they have as little in common with each other as they do with any other group. There would have been Muslims in the crowd yesterday, Muslims working at the venue, Muslims working in security. None of them belong to a community, its just the religion of their birth. They dont speak in one voice, nor live in one area, nor have one way of life.
Saying all that, there a lot of Muslims blowing themselves up around the world, even a handful is too many, something absolutely needs to be done, but asking some fictional community to appologise is a waste of time and wont deter any would be bombers. If these guys are prepared to blow themselves up and kill kids, I imagine they have utter disdain for anyone in their "community".
We need to give the security services more resources, I always hear that the police cant monitor everyone on their watch list because they dont have the resources, lets give them the fucking resources, this is a far more worthy matter than the £40billion we are spending on a fantasy nuclear threat.

[DerKaiser]

Daesh can be and will be defeated on the battlefield. The Peshmergas would do it, but you'd have to give them a country at the end of it. Not popular with Iraq, Syria or Turkey.

Random terrorist acts won't stop, which is what I thought we were discussing.

Terrorism doesn't live or die with Daesh. Their defeat on the battlefield would only see its members around the world flock to another banner. However, at this rate, such an option doesn't seem to bad considering the type of cynical, cowardly and brutal form of terrorism that they advocate. Give me AI-Qaeda over them any day of the week.

[Clayton Bigsby]

Are your timelines filled with tin foil hat brigades or is it just mine?

This is horrible. 8 year old at probably her first ever concert to see her hero, scythed down like that along with 21 others (hopefully it doesn't rise)

We will never know but I can imagine some of the fatalities were crush injuries as people were trying to get the hell out of there. So sad

Whenever I hear of a bomb I think of the seriously injured more than the dead. Somebody would have gone there with two hands and left with one/none, walk but now paralysed etc. I know human beings cope but it would be horrible to suffer life changing injuries in such a way

[The North Bank]

How far do those powers extend before they're abused?

I do think for all the wonderful things the internet has brought, its been an absolute gold mine for the self serviced "lone wolf"terrorist. Nearly every suicide attack these days has some online participation that enabled it to take place. The internet does need looking at.

[Cliff Bastin]

How far do those powers extend before they're abused?

If it saves hundreds of lives then it is worth it. I would give them permission to be able to track all online movements/material.  You have to do something. Many of these idiots are communicating online and getting brainwashed and planning. I know some will not agree but what else can you do if a big part of the problem is the abuse of the internet for these clowns?

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

Daesh can be and will be defeated on the battlefield. The Peshmergas would do it, but you'd have to give them a country at the end of it. Not popular with Iraq, Syria or Turkey.

Random terrorist acts won't stop, which is what I thought we were discussing.

Exactly this, defeating them as an army is relatively straightforward if the will is actually there. However stopping "random" acts of violence against civilians is impossible. All areas cannot be protected 24/7 at least not under our current relative freedoms. I for one am not willing to give up this relative freedom for various reasons, but the most pertinent reason in relation to these attacks is the fact that we would be letting them "win".

[Macphisto80]

You tell me. In your opinion what would virtually stop ISIS or ISIL?

Same thing that'll stop any army in its tracks. Cut the supply. Cut the money. Cut the resources and the propaganda. It was just a day or so ago that Mr Tiny Hands, small dick was over in Saudi Arabia sucking their plums. ISIS' ideology is that of Wahhabism.  Where does that particular brand of Islam come from? That's right, Saudi Arabia.

[The North Bank]

Are your timelines filled with tin foil hat brigades or is it just mine?

This is horrible. 8 year old at probably her first ever concert to see her hero, scythed down like that along with 21 others (hopefully it doesn't rise)

We will never know but I can imagine some of the fatalities were crush injuries as people were trying to get the hell out of there. So sad

Whenever I hear of a bomb I think of the seriously injured more than the dead. Somebody would have gone there with two hands and left with one/none, walk but now paralysed etc. I know human beings cope but it would be horrible to suffer life changing injuries in such a way

I dont think I'd cope mate.

The whole thing is just so fucking horrible.

[El Denzel Pepito]

Better online monitoring, give the security services the access to do so. Hate preachers in mosques to be prosecuted when caught advocating for murder of 'infidels'. Lots of things you can do domestically to combat ISIS. More resources needed for the security services. Stop cutting funding! Put more money into them.

Unfortunately, there'll always be one that slips through the net, like last night.

We can tackle it domestically, but the ideology remains. Once these hate preachers are prosecuted, then what? You can't put them all away for life. They get released, find a way back to the Middle East? And it continues. We might say we've 'eradicated' all active members of IS living the UK, but it's not going to stop the ideology. IS control a region bigger than the United Kingdom. They might not have all the resources of a country, but make no mistake, we're fighting a 'country-sized' military, who seem to have an endless supply of recruits from all over the world. I just don't see an end to it in my generation, and as a 20-something year old, that scares me. How bad is it going to get?

*Just like to make clear I'm against any 'nukes' being used in the Middle East. What else can we do to stop an ideology? I dunno. Can you stop an ideology, just like that? No, everything I've learnt in my degree actually says otherwise.

[The North Bank]

If it saves hundreds of lives then it is worth it. I would give them permission to be able to track all online movements/material.  You have to do something. Many of these idiots are communicating online and getting brainwashed and planning. I know some will not agree but what else can you do if a big part of the problem is the abuse of the internet for these clowns?

I have to say Im also prepared to give up some of my fucking liberty if it means stopping a suicide bomber, Im not that precious, if you have nothing to hide you shouldnt worry.
Infact its getting to the stage where extra scrutiny might make me feel safer.
The internet is a massive issue. I dont know if it can be policed though, I have no idea about these things.

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

Better online monitoring, give the security services the access to do so. Hate preachers in mosques to be prosecuted when caught advocating for murder of 'infidels'. Lots of things you can do domestically to combat ISIS. More resources needed for the security services. Stop cutting funding! Put more money into them.

Plenty of attacks against civilian targets were planned before the common availability of the internet. It's likely that some still are through other means of communication. Plenty of people have been brainwashed without the need for websites.

[El Denzel Pepito]

You can't police the Internet. Not in my opinion anyway. Have a look at Tor and the dark web. Any time a government agency shuts down a site, 10 others appear. The internet is a medium that allows other mediums to run using it. For every 'ISIS messenger website' that gets found/taken down, there'll be loads more getting made. And as far as I know, using Tor/a VPN alongside it, is very very hard to track for even the most skilled hackers, right?

[Cliff Bastin]

Unfortunately, there'll always be one that slips through the net, like last night.

We can tackle it domestically, but the ideology remains. Once these hate preachers are prosecuted, then what? You can't put them all away for life. They get released, find a way back to the Middle East? And it continues. We might say 'we've eradicated all active members of IS living the UK, but it's not going to stop the ideology. IS control a region bigger than the United Kingdom. They might not have all the resources of a country, but make no mistake, we're fighting a 'country-sized' military, who seem to have an endless supply of recruits from all over the world. I just don't see an end to it in my generation, and as a 20-something year old, that scares me. How bad is it going to get?

*Just like to make clear I'm against any 'nukes' being used in the Middle East. What else can we do to stop an ideology? I dunno. Can you stop an ideology, just like that? No, everything I've learnt in my degree actually says otherwise.

An ideology is useless if you can't act out on it. If this guy was known to intelligence services and if he was using the internet in some capacity but the services just couldn't get access to see what he was doing then that is a huge problem for me. I think that needs addressed. We have to tackle this abuse of the internet.

[Macphisto80]

I have to say Im also prepared to give up some of my fucking liberty if it means stopping a suicide bomber, Im not that precious, if you have nothing to hide you shouldnt worry.
Infact its getting to the stage where extra scrutiny might make me feel safer.
The internet is a massive issue.[b/] I dont know if it can be policed though, I have no idea about these things.

One of the most understated things in all of this, and indeed a lot of recent events. It's having a massive influence on current affairs. I personally think social media is one of the most toxic things to happen to society in a long time.

[El Denzel Pepito]

An ideology is useless if you can't act out on it. If this guy was known to intelligence services and if he was using the internet in some capacity but the services just couldn't get access to see what he was doing then that is a huge problem for me. I think that needs addressed. We have to tackle this abuse of the internet.

See both these mate. I don't think policing the internet will work to combat the execution of these attacks.

Plenty of attacks against civilian targets were planned before the common availability of the internet. It's likely that some still are through other means of communication. Plenty of people have been brainwashed without the need for websites.

You can't police the Internet. Not in my opinion anyway. Have a look at Tor and the dark web. Any time a government agency shuts down a site, 10 others appear. The internet is a medium that allows other mediums to run using it. For every 'ISIS messenger website' that gets found/taken down, there'll be loads more getting made. And as far as I know, using Tor/a VPN alongside it, is very very hard to track for even the most skilled hackers, right?

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

I have to say Im also prepared to give up some of my fucking liberty if it means stopping a suicide bomber, Im not that precious, if you have nothing to hide you shouldnt worry.
Infact its getting to the stage where extra scrutiny might make me feel safer.
The internet is a massive issue. I dont know if it can be policed though, I have no idea about these things.

Here we go. the only boring "if you have nothing to hide" nonsense. Our liberty is extremely precious, something that has been fought for, on the battlefields, through protest, lobbying, personal sacrifice etc. It's also something that those committing and ordering these attacks would love to see be eroded away. It's extremely important that we maintain our liberty. I for one am not prepared to give up on iota of liberty.

[4pool]

You tell me. In your opinion what would virtually stop ISIS or ISIL?

I did this on purpose because a number of ideas might be put forth.

One I would like to add, is that Muslims specifically teach that being a suicide bomber will not get you to heaven. There should be no glory or reward. That Imams and parents need to reinforce this from the earliest of ages.

Some may still be radicalized, parents often lose control of teenagers or young adults. But sometimes what you are taught still can give you the doubt even when you strike out on your own.

[Peabee]

I hear this all the time mate but as I am not Muslim but I don't see much counter action to this awful crimes. I don't see enough Muslims trying to prove that or talk out about these awful actions.

Don't see enough if I am honest... just words  after and then it's too late.

Words after then it goes quite again then something happens then words - are the Muslim community really doing enough?

Where do you think a lot of the intelligence comes from?   

[thejbs]

Telling members of the Muslim community to apologize for the crimes of a minority faction is the type of stuff you hear from Tommy Robinson and his band of knuckles draggers I'm afraid. However, there does need to be recognition of the very fact that above all else this is a religous problem. The type of dogmatism, that justifies one to blow themselves up in the midst of innocent civilians, unfortunately can only be seen in relation to Islam.

Is it though?  The very idea of a Muslim blowing themselves up for God was unheard of before the 80s. The Koran says that suicide and murder are wrong and really, the vast majority of suicide attacks are for political ends with the a certain interpretation of the book justifying the means.  It's like saying the NI problem was religious because the opposing factions were divided clearly along religious lines.

Suicide bombing spread because it was shown to be highly effective when Hezbollah did it. Several secular groups in the Lebanon were among those who first followed Hezbollah's lead. Muslim leaders who saw the effectiveness of suicide bombers taught that the Koran said it was ok - this twisted interpretation of the Koran paints suicide bombers as martyrs, conveniently sidestepping the sinfulness of suicide.  But to be clear, the Koran, just like the bible, says suicide is a sin.

[Peabee]

I have to say Im also prepared to give up some of my fucking liberty if it means stopping a suicide bomber, Im not that precious, if you have nothing to hide you shouldnt worry.
Infact its getting to the stage where extra scrutiny might make me feel safer.
The internet is a massive issue. I dont know if it can be policed though, I have no idea about these things.

Terrorism was happening way before the internet.   Taking away our liberty isn't the answer.  That's a win for these muppets.  Why do you think Macron took a huge risk and walked to the British Embassy?  He knew that his personal safety was less important than the idea of freedom and liberty. 

[The North Bank]

Here we go. the only boring "if you have nothing to hide" nonsense. Our liberty is extremely precious, something that has been fought for, on the battlefields, through protest, lobbying, personal sacrifice etc. It's also something that those committing and ordering these attacks would love to see be eroded away. It's extremely important that we maintain our liberty. I for one am not prepared to give up on iota of liberty.

There is no liberty if we are living in fear, I have to say I dont feel much safe anymore. In my personal opinion, one child's life is more important than all you stated above.

[The North Bank]

Terrorism was happening way before the internet.   Taking away our liberty isn't the answer.  That's a win for these muppets.  Why do you think Macron took a huge risk and walked to the British Embassy?  He knew that his personal safety was less important than the idea of freedom and liberty.

Having powers to investigate the internet is not taking anyone's liberty, if it helps protect people. Id rather be alive with site restrictions than dead with free internet access.

[Sudden Death Draft Loser]

There is no liberty if we are living in fear, I have to say I dont feel much safe anymore. In my personal opinion, one child's life is more important than all you stated above.
[/quote]

Living in fear under these circumstances is a personal choice and altering your behavior in response to this fear is giving in to these murderers, allowing them a victory. Sadly maintaining our essential liberty is much more important than individual lives. Personally this attack or any of the others has done nothing to make me more fearful. I am still far more likely to be killed in a road traffic accident, a random mugging/street fight, from illness or natural disaster than I am to become the victim of a planned political attack.