Topic: Star Wars: The Rise Of Skywalker / The Mandalorian / The Clone Wars

[lionel_messias]

I think he meant that there will never be a SW film that everyone agrees is 'good'. Which I think is true.

I guess the difference with Marvel is that until 10 years ago, there was no Marvel 'cinematic universe'. There has only ever been one style of Marvel film, and all of them have been made in the last 10 years. There is not a generation who grew up with a series of films over 30 years ago, and another who grew up with a trilogy 15 years ago, and another generation now, who all have their own ideas of what Marvel films should be. This is what Marvel films are like and have always been like. Presumably there are older fans of the comics who might not like the films, but I'm assuming most fans of the movies were either kids or teenagers when the first films came out, and are still pretty young now. I'd imagine it's a much more unified fanbase, less cynical and bitter, with a lot of fans being from the same generation. That's just my impression though.

It is an interesting comparison, especially because Disney owns both franchises (and much else that makes money in the commercial cinema world!).

My take is the MCU films have been spectacularly successful in making a series of films that are mostly entertaining, and mostly hit their audience right bang in the middle of what they expect. And no one has ever managed a 10-year project like this, creating a connected film series from dozens of comic book sources.

They have made several 4-star films in my opinion and NOT ONE which you'd consider a classic. I'm not quite sure why actually; it is almost as if making all the films fit together with a continuous story has diminished each individual episode. And of course Marvel often have to deal with origin stories which by their nature have become cliche now. My favourite is Spiderman: Homecoming which has a lightness of touch about where Parker is coming from, and a really strong story.

The Marvel people have talked about Thanos being their Darth Vader, they need that level of weight behind a villain to establish a very good film next up.

For Star Wars, if you are over 40 and we now have twitter/internet/forums - of course we are all critical! Nearly everyone now is an amateur film/tv/music critic, we simply didn't have this when we were 12!


I liked Last Jedi when I first saw it, now I find it really annoying to think about, and a wasted opportunity - albeit a stylish one!
 

[Nessy76]

Finally saw the Solo trailer last night. Don't want to leap to judgement, but that guy's voice really bugs me.

[Rob Dylan]

When Luke Skywalker says, "I'm not coming back, I never wanted to be found, I came here to die," then how can you NOT struggle to shout out loud, "THEN WHY DID YOU LEAVE A FUCKING MAP!?"  That's not being picky - that's being slapped in the face with a floppy purple dildo of a contradiction.  It's the question Rey SHOULD have asked, but didn't. 

But Luke didn't leave a map. Lor San Tekka (the old guy at the beginning of TFA) discovered a map to the first Jedi temple, it was rumoured that that was where Luke had gone, so it was assumed the map would lead to Luke. I think the backstory is that it was removed from the official archives by someone else years before (presumably to hide the location of the temple from the Empire). That last bit is not in the film, but it does say in the opening crawl that someone has found a clue to his whereabouts, and Han later says that he'd gone to find the first Jedi temple. The opening dialogue also explains that Leia has been searching for the map for a long time - if Luke had intentionally left a map, she wouldn't have needed to do that as he'd have just left the map with her, and he could've been found at any time. It's never said in the film that the map was left by Luke. He's intentionally gone looking for that place knowing that the location is a mystery to the rest of the galaxy, so it will be hard to find him.

[Rob Dylan]

I liked Last Jedi when I first saw it, now I find it really annoying to think about, and a wasted opportunity - albeit a stylish one!

I didn't like it all when it came out and quite a few things bugged me about it for a while...but I'd recommend watching it again if you haven't already. When I did I was able to shrug off the bad stuff and appreciate the good stuff which I'd underestimated the first time round, once I'd given up on the idea of it being a 'perfect' film.

[WillG.LFC]

Watched it again last week with the kids. The whole casino part of the film really was shite

[ScottScott]

Watched it again last week with the kids. The whole casino part of the film really was shite

And this is what it comes down to. The rest of the film is good albeit with some forced comedy but that whole subplot between Finn and Rose and that casino planet/city was absolutely dreadful and ruins the film. Take that out and it's a much, much better film

[Red Beret]

But Luke didn't leave a map. Lor San Tekka (the old guy at the beginning of TFA) discovered a map to the first Jedi temple, it was rumoured that that was where Luke had gone, so it was assumed the map would lead to Luke.

I think the backstory is that it was removed from the official archives by someone else years before (presumably to hide the location of the temple from the Empire). That last bit is not in the film, but it does say in the opening crawl that someone has found a clue to his whereabouts, and Han later says that he'd gone to find the first Jedi temple.

The opening dialogue also explains that Leia has been searching for the map for a long time - if Luke had intentionally left a map, she wouldn't have needed to do that as he'd have just left the map with her, and he could've been found at any time. It's never said in the film that the map was left by Luke. He's intentionally gone looking for that place knowing that the location is a mystery to the rest of the galaxy, so it will be hard to find him.

Well in that case why does Artoo conveniently have the missing section of the map after being in low power mode ever since Luke left?  It's the same piece Kylo Ren has, recovered from the archives of the Empire.  What's it doing sitting in Artoo?  He says he found it, but how?  Has he spent 10 years in hibernation mode checking his own memory banks?  And if the Republic succeeded the Empire why does the First Order have this fragment but the Republic doesn't?

Nothing of what you say is wrong, but it throws up questions that shouldn't need to be asked; it's stuff like that that makes me just shake my head.  And it's only one example.  For me that is bad story writing.  This is basic stuff.  Stuff a top movie producer/writer/director/whatever should be expected to get right.

It's why I prefer Rogue One, love it in fact.  Yes, the characters are bland and disposable, with precious little chemistry; the story is simple and the outcome is predictable, and it starts a bit slow.  But it's self consistent and consistent with the films around it.  It's well told, and whatever flaws it has plot wise don't stand out like a wookie at an ewok family gathering.  (Yeah the tentacle creature was outright silly but it wasn't in there long.)

[Rob Dylan]

Well in that case why does Artoo conveniently have the missing section of the map after being in low power mode ever since Luke left?  It's the same piece Kylo Ren has, recovered from the archives of the Empire.  What's it doing sitting in Artoo?  He says he found it, but how?  Has he spent 10 years in hibernation mode checking his own memory banks?  And if the Republic succeeded the Empire why does the First Order have this fragment but the Republic doesn't?

Nothing of what you say is wrong, but it throws up questions that shouldn't need to be asked; it's stuff like that that makes me just shake my head.  And it's only one example.  For me that is bad story writing.  This is basic stuff.  Stuff a top movie producer/writer/director/whatever should be expected to get right.

The idea is that R2 had the much larger map because he'd downloaded various information and navigational charts from the times he'd been connected to the Imperial network during the OT. Although it wasn't necessarily a map of the whole galaxy, as there are sections of it that are still uncharted. BB-8 basically tells him about the map fragment he has and then R2 produces the information that he has.

I agree it was a bit convenient, but Star Wars has always had these little 'conveniences'. I understand that we want a plot that is absolutely water-tight, but there are holes in the plots of the OT if you look closely enough, and in a simple adventure, there isn't time to get bogged down in explaining everything. Also, the Republic didn't succeed the Empire, the idea is that the remnants of the Empire retreated into the 'Unknown Regions' and eventually evolved into the First Order. They didn't just hand over all their equipment and information to the Republic.

Also I think there's a difference between bad / lazy writing, and people just misreading things that are explained in the film. For example, your first question was 'why did Luke leave a map?' - but the film never suggests that he did. I understand what you mean about raising questions that shouldn't need to be asked, but these particular questions don't really need to be asked. The film makes it clear: Luke has gone missing, someone discovers a map which might lead to finding him, both sides want the map, when the Resistance get it they use it to find him. That's all we need to know. How the map got to be where it was, and the mechanics of how they navigated the map to find him, aren't really important.

I agree that Rogue One was great though!

[Red Beret]

Of course, SW is built upon little conveniences.  I think that was a big one though!

Personally, I think the writers themselves were not sure whether they wanted Luke to want to be found or not.  The impression I took from the first film was that he'd gone back to the drawing board, to study and train; instead he's just a bit of a coward who has abandoned his post and left the galaxy to deal with the fallout of his mistakes. 

There was just enough ambiguity for me, and I think that's where these new films constantly fall down - they are trying to be too clever.  If they want to be judged as kids films then keep it simple; I've seen many a reviewer say even their kids are asking questions and saying it doesn't make sense.

There are other examples for me, but I'd be here all day.

[Something Worse]

Of course, SW is built upon little conveniences.  I think that was a big one though!

Personally, I think the writers themselves were not sure whether they wanted Luke to want to be found or not.  The impression I took from the first film was that he'd gone back to the drawing board, to study and train; instead he's just a bit of a coward who has abandoned his post and left the galaxy to deal with the fallout of his mistakes. 

There was just enough ambiguity for me, and I think that's where these new films constantly fall down - they are trying to be too clever.  If they want to be judged as kids films then keep it simple; I've seen many a reviewer say even their kids are asking questions and saying it doesn't make sense.

There are other examples for me, but I'd be here all day.

I think the big issue is Abrams went one way and then Johnson went another with the entire movie.

I'm sure there's no way Abrams expected his ending to be followed by Luke tossing the lightsaber over his shoulder

[Red Beret]

I think the big issue is Abrams went one way and then Johnson went another with the entire movie.

I'm sure there's no way Abrams expected his ending to be followed by Luke tossing the lightsaber over his shoulder

Which is fking ridiculous.  Abrams should at least have the basic plot points of the entire trilogy mapped out, but instead they making it on the fly.  And it's mildly insulting of Johnson as it disrespects the work put into the previous film. 

Whatever happened to the Knights of Ren?

[voodoo ray]

Which is fking ridiculous.  Abrams should at least have the basic plot points of the entire trilogy mapped out, but instead they making it on the fly.  And it's mildly insulting of Johnson as it disrespects the work put into the previous film. 

Whatever happened to the Knights of Ren?

johnson left them out because he didn't want to shoehorn them in.

[Rob Dylan]

There was actually a fair amount of collaboration between Abrams and Johnson - the script for TLJ was being written in the summer of 2014 while they were shooting TFA, and it was finished while TFA was in post-production. So both were aware of what the other was doing, and Johnson even asked Abrams to change something at the end of TFA to fit in with what he wanted to do in TLJ. I think they've got the general arc of the trilogy mapped out, but they're giving the individual directors some freedom over how they get there. Not sure if that's the right way to do it though.

I think the Knights of Ren will be in Episode 9 - the events of Episodes 7 & 8 take place over only a few days, they can easily explain that Kylo had sent them off on some mission, or that they've gone rogue and have been off doing their own thing.

[abs-ibs]

Finally saw the Solo trailer last night. Don't want to leap to judgement, but that guy's voice really bugs me.

I know exactly what you mean. That was the very first thing I picked up on. It was good that they got someone who isn't too far away from looking like Harrison Ford's younger Han Solo. Harrison Ford does have a longer face than the new Han Solo but the hair was almost spot on . However the original Han Solo's voice was deep and not whiny. But this new one - DAMN that is NOT how Han Solo should EVER sound.

The trailer itself looks like it might be a fun packed film. But that voice makes me wanna cry and phone Disney n tell them to just bring Harrison Ford back from the dead of The Force Awakens and stick him in ALL the proposed Han Solo films. Just please fix this voice PLEASE.

Or make Harrison Ford do a voice over n stick that over the top

[ScottScott]

Finally got around to rewatching TLJ last night. Hadn't seen it since the week of release after being so disheartened about the whole thing

Have to say it is much much better on a 2nd viewing. There are still some bits which should have been removed - the forced humour early on, Leia pulling herself back into the ship from space, the whole casino bit and Rose 'saving' Finn - but the rest really works and actually makes a good Star Wars film

It has some of the best set pieces in the whole franchise - the battle in Snoke's throne room, the salt planet and the obvious light speed destruction of Snoke's cruiser - but on top of that the way it comes together is great

Luke and Rey's relationship is very believable, you really get the feeling Luke wants no more of the Jedi after seeing what Ben had become but he's drawn to Rey's power as a balance to Ben's dark. Poe's arc is very good too and initially you believe he's right in what he does but then when it is revealed what was happening all along it makes sense he wasn't informed. I think we see the pay off in Ep.9 to him becoming leader of the resistance

The stand out is Kylo Renn though. He is by far and away the best thing in these films and I'm hoping for serious levels of power next time around. I've always loved that he was still young and had issues controlling his emotions. It made for a fascinating character to see him develop. He's up there with my favourite villains not just in Star Wars but possibly of all time. His subtle actions or the way he reacts are perfect. After the battle in Snoke's throne room where he begs Rey to join him, the 'please' is perfect. So many little things like that make him great

I'm looking forward to Solo as well. I'm intrigued to see what JJ brings for Ep.9

[TepidT2O]

Some pretty positive vibes coming out about this...

[Something Worse]

Some pretty positive vibes coming out about this...

Same thing happened with Justice League, I'd advise you manage your expectations!

[Red Beret]

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/i3Cyofu6hLE" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/i3Cyofu6hLE</a>

[newrosswaterford]

Just watched The Last Jedi.

Was I tricked? Did I watch some kinda fan fiction piss take.

Speechless as to how bad it was. No guile, no charm, no wonder, no feeling, just fucking tripe, with awful acting and even worse dialogue. Adam Driver was the only half good thing.

 

[Riquende]

Just watched The Last Jedi.

Was I tricked? Did I watch some kinda fan fiction piss take.

Speechless as to how bad it was. No guile, no charm, no wonder, no feeling, just fucking tripe, with awful acting and even worse dialogue. Adam Driver was the only half good thing.

Yep. That's it. It's comfortably amongst the worst films I've ever seen; I mean at least terrible B-movies usually have some comedy value. I have literally no idea how this made it to the big screen the way it did. I found TFA dull and derivative, but it at least seemed to set up a few interesting plot points that could launch a decent story. Instead, this happened.

[aggerdid]

not exactly looking forward to solo BUT i did go and watch a star wars film in 2005 and we won the european cup 2 days later so i'll be going on the 24th.

[Beav]

Yep. That's it. It's comfortably amongst the worst films I've ever seen; I mean at least terrible B-movies usually have some comedy value. I have literally no idea how this made it to the big screen the way it did. I found TFA dull and derivative, but it at least seemed to set up a few interesting plot points that could launch a decent story. Instead, this happened.

Not gonna lie, I'm still enjoying these sizzling takes.

Anyway, Mikey has a lot of nice things to say about it here that I recommend looking at whether you liked the film or not.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/GVlicj-JwnI" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/GVlicj-JwnI</a>

[lionel_messias]

Just watched The Last Jedi.

Was I tricked? Did I watch some kinda fan fiction piss take.

Speechless as to how bad it was. No guile, no charm, no wonder, no feeling, just fucking tripe, with awful acting and even worse dialogue. Adam Driver was the only half good thing.

 

I liked it on first viewing.

More I think about it, the more shit it is becoming. It's like Rian Johnson (who I like) said, "Fuck Star Wars, I'll do my own thing and reboot everything from the first movie."

Only thing they did right was not having Kylo Ren fight Rey, which means they can have two massive ding-dongs in episode 9.

[Something Worse]

Not gonna lie, I'm still enjoying these sizzling takes.

Anyway, Mikey has a lot of nice things to say about it here that I recommend looking at whether you liked the film or not.

Which movies do you think he's seen that are worse?

[Schmidt]

I liked it on first viewing.

More I think about it, the more shit it is becoming. It's like Rian Johnson (who I like) said, "Fuck Star Wars, I'll do my own thing and reboot everything from the first movie."

Only thing they did right was not having Kylo Ren fight Rey, which means they can have two massive ding-dongs in episode 9.

I had the same issue where the more I thought about it the more I disliked it, then I watched it again and actually enjoyed the whole thing a lot more. The movie put a lot of effort into subverting expectation and I do wonder if that's why a few things from the first film were thrown away; they made TFA a predictable but safe start to the new trilogy, made everyone think they knew where it was going, then intentionally flipped some of it on its head in TLJ.

[Beav]

Which movies do you think he's seen that are worse?

If this is one of the worst films hes ever seen, Im guessing hes Michael Owen.

[Red Beret]

I had the same issue where the more I thought about it the more I disliked it, then I watched it again and actually enjoyed the whole thing a lot more. The movie put a lot of effort into subverting expectation and I do wonder if that's why a few things from the first film were thrown away; they made TFA a predictable but safe start to the new trilogy, made everyone think they knew where it was going, then intentionally flipped some of it on its head in TLJ.

My issue is that I think much of what they did was more incidental than intentional.  I think they're trying to promote lazy writing as subverting audience expectations.

On a side note, as much as I get the motivations of Luke and Han in their behaviours, on one level it boggles my mind that, when Ben Solo turns evil, these two guys, these heroes just fuck off and leave Leia battling to hold everything together.  I just can't get over the sheer cowardice of these two men.

[Something Worse]

My issue is that I think much of what they did was more incidental than intentional.  I think they're trying to promote lazy writing as subverting audience expectations.

On a side note, as much as I get the motivations of Luke and Han in their behaviours, on one level it boggles my mind that, when Ben Solo turns evil, these two guys, these heroes just fuck off and leave Leia battling to hold everything together.  I just can't get over the sheer cowardice of these two men.

Christ, I never thought of that before.

[WillG.LFC]

My issue is that I think much of what they did was more incidental than intentional.  I think they're trying to promote lazy writing as subverting audience expectations.

On a side note, as much as I get the motivations of Luke and Han in their behaviours, on one level it boggles my mind that, when Ben Solo turns evil, these two guys, these heroes just fuck off and leave Leia battling to hold everything together.  I just can't get over the sheer cowardice of these two men.

yeah said after episode 7 it was disappointing/lazy that they just reverted han back to his episode 4 self almost. No real progression in his character.

Luke was kind of passable at least

[Nessy76]

If this is one of the worst films hes ever seen, Im guessing hes Michael Owen.

 

[Schmidt]

My issue is that I think much of what they did was more incidental than intentional.  I think they're trying to promote lazy writing as subverting audience expectations.

On a side note, as much as I get the motivations of Luke and Han in their behaviours, on one level it boggles my mind that, when Ben Solo turns evil, these two guys, these heroes just fuck off and leave Leia battling to hold everything together.  I just can't get over the sheer cowardice of these two men.

A lot of it was definitely intentional, though I think we'll know more once the trilogy is done with.

[Riquende]

Not gonna lie, I'm still enjoying these sizzling takes.

My 'sizzling takes' were posted in this thread the day after the film launched. Now it's just a resigned acceptance that the sequel trilogy, which was previously just suffering under a safety-first dull intro, is now utterly irreparable.

At least Rogue One exists to give some evidence that Disney can do something right. And I'm seeing Solo Thursday, still got a lot of hope for it.

[Red Beret]

A lot of it was definitely intentional, though I think we'll know more once the trilogy is done with.

I think a fair bit of the second film boils down to the director deciding to junk a lot of stuff set up in the first movie because he wants to do his own thing, rather than the trilogy being held together by a series of rigid and unalterable plot points that have to be dealt with.

Plus, as I said, lazy writing.  The Casino/Star Destroyer tracker storyline goes nowhere for example; it's not even a decent red herring.  You can take it out of the film completely and not alter the outcome at all.  That's not subverting audience expectations; it's giving characters something to do because they can't figure out what the hell else to do with them.

The excellent parts of this film only highlight what a botch job the rest is.  It's a big ask for the final film to salvage this mess.

[oojason]

I think a fair bit of the second film boils down to the director deciding to junk a lot of stuff set up in the first movie because he wants to do his own thing, rather than the trilogy being held together by a series of rigid and unalterable plot points that have to be dealt with.

Plus, as I said, lazy writing.  The Casino/Star Destroyer tracker storyline goes nowhere for example; it's not even a decent red herring.  You can take it out of the film completely and not alter the outcome at all.  That's not subverting audience expectations; it's giving characters something to do because they can't figure out what the hell else to do with them.

The excellent parts of this film only highlight what a botch job the rest is.  It's a big ask for the final film to salvage this mess.

This, for me, has some insights into the Casino plot (yes, the Canto Bight scenes still could have been done a lot better - and have their faults):-

https://i.redd.it/lrjogkba1c701.jpg

It's also about failure - no matter how hard you try... sometimes you'll fail and fuck it up. The point is to learn from it - which is theme that runs through the film (for me, anyway).


Some of the coming Fan Edits for TLJ should be interesting - to see how they go with some of the trims of humour (and stuff like BB8 spitting coins and somehow managing to tie up those casino guards with tape) - and likely the casino scenes too, with insertions of a few of the deleted scenes as well...

[Beav]

It's also about failure - no matter how hard you try... sometimes you'll fail and fuck it up. The point is to learn from it - which is theme that runs through the film (for me, anyway).

"The greatest teacher, failure is."

Its the central theme to the entire film, growth through failure. All our main heroes fuck up, waste time, cost lives, or are blinded by their own naivety and hubris. Luke, the shining knight of the rebellion, the hero who saved the galaxy, fucks up. But they all learn from it, they all grow and at the end they stand tall together.

Far from lazily written, every storyline and character arc has a purpose for being there. The Canto Bight sequence is the one most seem to struggle with (that tweet thread explains it perfectly) which is fair because its pretty goofy and could probably have been executed a little better, but also people not understanding Kylo's arc or Poe's, people hating Luke even though everything explaining his story is up there on the screen. I just think people werent expecting it to take the turns it did, which is fine, it only clicked for me a second time and then thinking about other parts long afterwards.

[Red Beret]

This, for me, has some insights into the Casino plot (yes, the Canto Bight scenes still could have been done a lot better - and have their faults):-

https://i.redd.it/lrjogkba1c701.jpg

It's also about failure - no matter how hard you try... sometimes you'll fail and fuck it up. The point is to learn from it - which is theme that runs through the film (for me, anyway).

I get that, I really do.  In life we run into walls all the time; we make the wrong choices and we make mistakes and not everything is tied up in a neat little bow at the end.

But this isn't reality.  It's a movie.  It's a Star Wars movie.  It's a clear cut, black and white, good against evil, space fantasy.  What has been done is intriguing, but it isn't Star Wars and this isn't the movie to do it in.

You want to do a murder mystery or a thriller then yes, plot twists, red herrings and dead ends are the way to go.  Star Wars is (or should be) a much simpler, linear film.  Empire Strikes Back warns about the dangers of failure without wasting half the movie on a dead end chase to teach the lesson.  I look at TLJ and I see writers who got too clever for their own good.

I know it's only my opinion but there was a better way to do this.

[Beav]

I get that, I really do.  In life we run into walls all the time; we make the wrong choices and we make mistakes and not everything is tied up in a neat little bow at the end.

But this isn't reality.  It's a movie.  It's a Star Wars movie.  It's a clear cut, black and white, good against evil, space fantasy.  What has been done is intriguing, but it isn't Star Wars and this isn't the movie to do it in.

You want to do a murder mystery or a thriller then yes, plot twists, red herrings and dead ends are the way to go.  Star Wars is (or should be) a much simpler, linear film.  Empire Strikes Back warns about the dangers of failure without wasting half the movie on a dead end chase to teach the lesson.  I look at TLJ and I see writers who got too clever for their own good.

I know it's only my opinion but there was a better way to do this.

Well there was only one writer, Rian himself, which could be where its not clicking with people, its a singular vision that for me is why it works so well, but like you said, Star Wars was a relatively straightforward story that was mostly black and white. The only grey we had was Han being a bit of a rogue that only lasted for most of one film, and Vader turning at the end, but besides that it is very cut and dried.

In the Skywalker/force aspect of the film, TLJis all grey. Kylo isnt all evil, Rey isnt all good, Luke is flawed and damaged. The only figure that resembles the black and white pure evil of the old films is literally cut in half and disposed of to get to the more personal story between Rey and Ben. But isnt that a thousand percent more interesting than rehashing the same tired ideas? If Kylo is all evil, and Rey is pure good, where is there to go other than watching it play out exactly like it did last time, albeit with new faces?

Theres nothing wrong with wanting simplicity in your space fantasy, but that has been done so perfectly in this very story, if they are going to keep making Star Wars films they have to explore new ideas and be willing to take interesting story choices which this film did in spades. We complain constantly that modern blockbusters are all dumb and samey, but the biggest blockbuster of the last few years decides to take bold risks and gets slaughtered for it. I think its fine to not like the film, if its not your bag its not your bag, but its not badly written and took more of a shot than it had any right to and I think Johnson deserves respect for going all out with it.

[oojason]

I get that, I really do.  In life we run into walls all the time; we make the wrong choices and we make mistakes and not everything is tied up in a neat little bow at the end.

But this isn't reality.  It's a movie.  It's a Star Wars movie.  It's a clear cut, black and white, good against evil, space fantasy.  What has been done is intriguing, but it isn't Star Wars and this isn't the movie to do it in.

You want to do a murder mystery or a thriller then yes, plot twists, red herrings and dead ends are the way to go.  Star Wars is (or should be) a much simpler, linear film.  Empire Strikes Back warns about the dangers of failure without wasting half the movie on a dead end chase to teach the lesson.  I look at TLJ and I see writers who got too clever for their own good.

I know it's only my opinion but there was a better way to do this.

TLJ is somewhat similar to Empire - in that it's the middle film of the Trilogy - dealing with setbacks and the enormity of the task that lies ahead, seeing the protagonists at their lowest ebb (and they certainly are right now). The black and white issues of good vs bad - what it is to be on either side of that (or in between), to choose that - are somewhat examined and questioned in the middle film... (with more action than Empire).

Obviously, that leaves a LOT for the third film to complete - a bit like ROTJ had to go through and contain (and for some fans possibly why it's considered not as strong as the other 2 films - in playing it safe with repeating the 'beats' from Star Wars '77).

It's why (I think) some people were surprised to have JJ back on board for the 3rd film - JJ is great at setting things up in film and tv; he excels at this and it's familiar ground for him. For me, he's not that great at finishing his stories off (generally) - and thought it'd be given to a more suited director. Obviously, I hope to be proved wrong and the final film ties all 3 together and Ep IX itself is also a great film - with the familiar sci-fi fantasy elements of good vs bad that we are familiar with.

Right now, for me - until we get Ep IX... TLJ isn't actually finished, we're only half way there (after the set-up and re-introduction - somewhat safely done) of TFA. And because Rian Johnson subverted our expectations somewhat with TLJ - yet took risks to move the story on in a new direction with a 'different point of view' I think (and am probably wrong / in the minority etc) we'll have to wait until after IX until we can fully take in TLJ itself. That may seem a like a cop-out of sorts - yet it's likely similar to the wait between Empire and ROTJ for many of us. C'mon December '19!


Star Wars films for a modern audience, in these modern times (especially since the the recession of 2008, and where the world has gone - politically and in life in general) was always going to be tricky. Why isn't the Sequel Trilogy like the Originals - why is it the Sequel Trilogy so much like the Originals? Why are these films so political? Why aren't these films more political? Why are there animal rights views in this film? Why do we see rich people being portrayed as evil in this film? The green milk is horrible etc etc (and lots of questions and statements like this - and so much more with the Mary Sues, sjw, diversity, feminism, alt-right shit, online film rating systems, clickbait, monetisation of youtube vids etc etc).


(I hope that makes sense mate - got interrupted a few times during with stupid work and lost my thought process (it ain't that hard to that these days - it's also why I'm looking forward to Solo - a fun space adventure set in the SW universe that looks a laugh - hopefully without all the crap mentioned in the paragraph above)

[Something Worse]

How is Rey "not all good"? I think she's the only character who is committed to their cause. Her flirting with Ren in no way compromises her beliefs, and when he assumes she's joining him, she's surprised he isn't joining her.

[Red Beret]

In case anybody is interested...

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/1oAi0hoJ_28" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/1oAi0hoJ_28</a>

(I hope that makes sense mate - got interrupted a few times during with stupid work and lost my thought process (it ain't that hard to that these days - it's also why I'm looking forward to Solo - a fun space adventure set in the SW universe that looks a laugh - hopefully without all the crap mentioned in the paragraph above)

Once again I get what you are saying mate.  I still maintain my opinion that this film has been badly written; some of the themes could have been covered in a much better manner.  It smacks of a writer and director trying too hard to make their mark on a Star Wars film, rather than just enjoy making a Star Wars film. 

That's why I still prefer Rogue One - that's a film that proves you can make a proper, modern day Star Wars film and you don't need to put in a load of pseudo political bantha droppings to make a point.  Just good and evil, slugging it out over high stakes.

They just got too clever for their own good with TLJ.