Author Topic: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics (*)  (Read 925830 times)

Offline El Lobo

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics (*)
« Reply #7480 on: April 24, 2018, 06:13:06 pm »
It'll never come out as I assume it was before we bid for him, but I'd love to know the timeline of at what stage that chat took place.

It was in Blackpool allegedly.
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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics (*)
« Reply #7481 on: April 24, 2018, 06:28:47 pm »
Klopp on Salah
“I always meet the player before we sign. That’s when I decide because I have a good feeling for people. It was a fantastic talk. He’s open, smiling all the time. He has crazy curls but he’s a really nice boy. He also looked much more mature than it says on his passport. Twenty-four? I was: ‘Wow, really?’ We talked for three hours about everything from his family to my family and at the end we had a deal to work together. I like to remind players from time to time of that agreement. It’s working really well with Mo.”

I sometimes think people underestimate this part of things. When you take time to read about Salah, you can see that football is everything for him. When you dig into the likes of Gini, Karius, Mane, VVD, Robertson, Keita you will find much of the same. Mostly similar personalities, similar motivation, similar determination, etc. This chat is crucial. It doesn't matter how good you look on a spreadsheet - that will, at best, get your foot in the door for this chat. Nobody gets signed if they are not a good fit in terms of mentality.

So how do you or I try to assess this of players? The things they say, the things team mates say about them, the choices they make. When you take any time at all to dig into Depay on those three things, you can see lots of red flags where I suspect Klopp immediately would shit on any deal. I suspect a determined scout with access would find even more concerning things about his character.

I probably mentioned before but recruitment is probably split into three. Analysts will find, then continually assess players based on what they do in relation to the ball. They fill most of the blanks in terms of technical and physical. Scouts will then assess the players highlighted strengths, weaknesses as well as filling a lot of the blanks that the analysts just don't have the data to answer in terms of tactical & psychological/mentality related. Klopp then carries out the final assessment of their personality, cohesiveness to the squad and answering any remaining questions on the psychological/mentality side in his chat. There will be plenty that analysts can find who fit on the pitch 90 minutes a week - He is the person who decides if the player is the right fit for the club, for him to teach and manage, for him to fit with the rest of the group etc for 7 days a week, not just that ~1% that we see.

So while, from a footballing sense Depay looks great, it's that other 99% where I suspect he would fall down based on the little we know of him.

The only thing I'll say on that great post, Babu, is there's no real "order" to how players are found. It's more a joint venture. Scouts might see a player they didn't intend to see, notify Klopp and the analysts, the analysts will run the numbers, Klopp will maybe take a look or maybe wait on the quants, and everything moves from there. Or a mate of Klopp's might give him a recommendation, then Klopp will tell both the scouts and analysts, and they go and do their work simultaneously. That's how it's done in a lot of clubs, if not practically all. You never know when a player will pop up, so all three units have to be working together, which is the problem we had under Rodgers, who wanted to be in charge of the whole thing.
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Offline BabuYagu

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics (*)
« Reply #7482 on: April 24, 2018, 06:41:29 pm »
The only thing I'll say on that great post, Babu, is there's no real "order" to how players are found. It's more a joint venture. Scouts might see a player they didn't intend to see, notify Klopp and the analysts, the analysts will run the numbers, Klopp will maybe take a look or maybe wait on the quants, and everything moves from there. Or a mate of Klopp's might give him a recommendation, then Klopp will tell both the scouts and analysts, and they go and do their work simultaneously. That's how it's done in a lot of clubs, if not practically all. You never know when a player will pop up, so all three units have to be working together, which is the problem we had under Rodgers, who wanted to be in charge of the whole thing.

Cheers for that PoP. And now you say that you can see where some players appear. Karius, for example, Klopp knew from Bundesliga. Grujic looks very much driven by Buvac. Salah is driven by the analysts liking the data.

It also makes sense in terms of how the VVC deal comes about. I speculated this to be the case in the summer but it looks like Klopp has confirmed as much here with this line:-
"at the end we had a deal to work together. I like to remind players from time to time of that agreement."

So after meeting VVD he had an agreement with the player and he felt bound to it. If that meant waiting an extra 6months to get the right person, so be it. I don't think he means anything as formal as a contract of employment here, what we will pay, etc. I think he means what I expect of you. What you can expect of me. More in terms of conduct, relationship and improvement. It also makes some sense of why he will likely stick with Karius now. Also why there was no way back for Sakho. No matter how many times Sakho was reminded of their agreement, it became clear to him Sakho wasn't someone he could rely on to live up to his end.
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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics (*)
« Reply #7483 on: April 24, 2018, 06:53:41 pm »
So while, from a footballing sense Depay looks great, it's that other 99% where I suspect he would fall down based on the little we know of him.

Hasn't he turned things around since his move to Lyon? I don't know the details, but he was very young when he went to ManU.
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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics (*)
« Reply #7484 on: April 24, 2018, 07:10:52 pm »
So after meeting VVD he had an agreement with the player and he felt bound to it. 

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics (*)
« Reply #7485 on: April 24, 2018, 09:14:45 pm »
2 european finals in his first 2 euro campaigns hahahahHa...what a freak!!

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics (*)
« Reply #7486 on: April 25, 2018, 07:59:08 pm »
was the thread locked or am i still hungover from last night's shenanigans?

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics (*)
« Reply #7487 on: April 25, 2018, 08:02:16 pm »
If you take a stats only approach to scouting players, then Depay will stand out. However there are a lot of red flags there which would be hard to ignore. For a Klopp side with the mentality and personality he looks for, Depay wouldn't even get near his shortlist.

can i ask what those would be, babu?  he was clearly a bit of a twat but players grow up and he's looking so good for lyon.

Offline BabuYagu

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics (*)
« Reply #7488 on: April 25, 2018, 08:08:28 pm »
was the thread locked or am i still hungover from last night's shenanigans?
It got locked as Serbian posted in it during the game I think.

It will be an interesting 4 weeks ahead. I suspect at some point we will see how Klopp solves the problem of playing without a midfield. Although Mourinho has been doing this all season!

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics (*)
« Reply #7489 on: April 25, 2018, 08:09:39 pm »
can i ask what those would be, babu?  he was clearly a bit of a twat but players grow up and he's looking so good for lyon.

caught up with the thread.  i'd imagine we'd have private investigators tracking players who's social life may be a bit spicy.

we'd have to after the andy carroll and balotelli fiascos.

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics (*)
« Reply #7490 on: April 25, 2018, 08:10:49 pm »
It got locked as Serbian posted in it during the game I think.

It will be an interesting 4 weeks ahead. I suspect at some point we will see how Klopp solves the problem of playing without a midfield. Although Mourinho has been doing this all season!




i think we'll be fine.  the group is so strong that we'll just find solutions though i'd say it's important to keep our first 11 fit for the final.

really fucking obvious thing to say, sorry ;D

Offline Lycan

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics (*)
« Reply #7491 on: April 25, 2018, 08:13:59 pm »
Perhaps a possibility could be dropping Trent into midfield and playing Clyne or Gomez at RB maybe?
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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics (*)
« Reply #7492 on: April 25, 2018, 08:38:28 pm »
Perhaps a possibility could be dropping Trent into midfield and playing Clyne or Gomez at RB maybe?

pre-final? maybe but trent so good there he should be starting RB in rome and kiev.

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics (*)
« Reply #7493 on: April 25, 2018, 09:36:01 pm »
pre-final? maybe but trent so good there he should be starting RB in rome and kiev.

I'm talking the Stoke game. Maybe the other league games as well mate.
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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics (*)
« Reply #7494 on: April 25, 2018, 10:06:57 pm »
Next two games will define our season I reckon, win against stoke and prevail in Rome and we would have accomplished an unbelievable season. Shame Injuries started hitting now.

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics (*)
« Reply #7495 on: April 25, 2018, 10:24:50 pm »
Cheers for this mate.

You can really start to get a picture of how is passive/aggressive from those numbers. The fact that some of the more passive people, who must only be coming for ones they feel very confident of winning also have some of the worst numbers in terms of fail rates is crazy.

Thought I would look at some of the top keepers in europe as a comparison too. Although reticent to as I believe it isn't a like for like comparison across leagues. I haven't seen anything like West Brom outside of the Premier League in terms of physicality on crosses and set pieces.

Sergio Rico = 11,6% | 3 | 0 | 0,63 | 6% - Very aggressive and looks good. It's La Liga though.
Leno = 10,9% | 0 | 0 | 0,80 | 0% - Impressive! His shot stopping is shite though.
Burki = 9,9% | 2 | 0 | 1,14 | 4,1% - I like him. He has more mistakes in him than Lovren & Skrtel combined on amphetamines.
Gulacsi = 9,5% | 2 | 0 | 1,00 | 4,3% - Looks very good. Shame we never saw him here maybe.
Asenjo* = 8,6% | 5 | 0 | 1,00 | 13,5% - Aggressive, tries to catch everything, results in him dropping it a lot.
Lafont = 7,3% | 4 | 1 | 0,47 | 11,4% - Very young. Needs to grow into his body more maybe?
Donnarumma = 7,2% | 1 | 2 | 0,47 | 7,7%
ter Stegen = 6,5% | 5 | 0 | 0,28 | 17,2% - Would worry about him on crosses in England.
Areola = 6,4% | 0 | 1 | 0,56 | 3,2%
Oblak = 5,6% | 1 | 0 | 0,72 | 2,9% - Super cautious but almost never gets it wrong. Almost always catches too.
Reina = 5,5% | 0 | 0 | 0,19 | 0% - If you never try to catch the ball, you can never drop it. :D
Horn = 5,5% | 2 | 0 | 0,57 | 5,6%
Buffon* = 4,7% | 0 | 0 | 0,18 | 0% - See Reina

*Only played about half the games so numbers can be misleading as I only have number of crosses faced on a team level, not individual (except for Migs & Karius as I calculated it manually). 
Stats might have changed for Allison after the last game Babu
Could be so bad he could still be shell-shocked for their next few games.

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics (*)
« Reply #7496 on: April 26, 2018, 12:27:45 am »
From Bascombe in the Telegraph yesterday:

“Do you know how f*****’ difficult it is to play like that? Seriously. Do people realise?”

These were the words of a Liverpool legend ahead of the latest Anfield thrill seekers’ convention against Roma.

“To get your players to show such bravery against the best teams in Europe?” he continued.

“To get into their heads they can go anywhere and keep going forward?

“[Pep] Guardiola is doing it and he is regarded a genius but [Jürgen] Klopp is the same. If it was so easy to do what Liverpool are doing tactically, why isn't everyone else doing it?”

Since the player who said this was unaware the sentiments would be pinched for print purposes it would be unfair to name him, but it was stated with justifiable incredulity that amid all the rightful acclaim for Klopp’s work, there remains some misunderstanding surrounding it.

When Liverpool overcame Manchester City in the quarter-final there were plenty who portrayed it as the philosopher being outshouted by the manic cheerleader – the meticulous flawless masterplan of the world’s greatest manager inexplicably undermined by a coach embracing chaos theory, ordering players to frenziedly surge forward in zig-zags to confound logic. You would think from some interpretations a mob of Metalheads had the audacity to smash up the Philharmonic.

It would be easy to fall into trap again following the 5-2 win over Roma. With the Liverpool manager rousing the Main Stand after each well-timed tackle on the halfway line, there is a readily accessible colourful image for every visiting scribe reporting from the core of the Anfield inferno.

How comforting for future generations of Liverpool managers to know such a basic blueprint has been designed. Turn up, order The Kop to sing louder, treat the players like friends and deliver funny one-liners in press conferences. Why hasn’t anyone else since Bill Shankly thought of that?

While Guardiola and Jose Mourinho are portrayed as strategists – the Manchester City manager in particular inspiring a cult with the notion pass and move football from back to front is a reinvention rather than modern interpretation of the game – Klopp’s implementation of thematically similar football is somehow regarded less sophisticated, built around emotion rather than control.

The German coach is partially responsible for the sluggish misreading of his work, of course.

It was he, after all, who coined the phrase ‘heavy metal football’, thus perpetuating the notion it is less methodical, more prone to improvisation and, naturally, more shouty. If Klopp was passionate about classical music there may have been more inclination to depict him as a conductor. Equally, he might argue there as much artistic merit in the opening riff of AC/DC’s Back in Black as Beethoven’s Moonlight Sonata.

Klopp considers the passion of football an exploitable tool – what manager with access to Dortmund’s Yellow Wall and The Kop would not? – but Liverpool’s success to date is an amalgamation of finely-tuned choreography on the training pitch stirring the masses on a matchday. You only have to compare the tranquil mood inside the stadium for Klopp’s first game against Southampton in 2015 to what we are witnessing now, even in Premier League games, to understand what came first.

Liverpool’s training drills are a repeat prescription. It demands highly technical and tactical attacking football to move the ball at speed from Loris Karius to Mohamed Salah to tear through opponents, and the harrying of the opponents from Roberto Firmino back to Karius to ensure Liverpool are more difficult to create chances against than set-piece frailties and inexplicable late lapses in concentration suggest. Porto, City and – after one leg of the semi-final – Roma barely had a shout on target against Klopp’s side.

There is more studiousness and theory to the work of Klopp and his backroom team – and indeed those recruiting on their behalf – than has been credited. It is comparable to Guardiola in that both managers see more risks and zero pleasure in cautious football.

Perhaps Klopp and his training ground assistants Peter Krawietz and Zeljko Buvac are too generous when deferring to their mentor, former Mainz coach Wolfgang Frank (who was himself a disciple of Arrigo Sacchi), rather than proclaiming (or having others claim on their behalf) they are creating something new. Maybe they are less ego-centric than some of their peers. There is nothing truly unique in football anymore. It merely evolves. Managers broadly choose between three or four defenders, three or four midfielders and two or three attackers, deciding upon a system most reflective of their personality.

What separates the greatest from the waves of imitators is the methodology, courage of their convictions, access to the personnel capable of executing their plan and, yes, charismatic leadership. The most evocative symphony and guitar solo ever written is nothing more than an instruction on a sheet of paper without the talent to perform it. But anyone who believes there are not as many emerging coaches seeking to copy Klopp as much as Guardiola is delusional. Many will presume they are never going to manage a club with Lionel Messi or backed by an Arab state so will find the Liverpool manager a more realistic character-study. Football historians will be fascinated by what Klopp and his coaches and scouts saw in Salah that Mourinho did not.

Klopp is rarely asked about his tactics. The long-established cult of personality in football is responsible for that. There are plenty with a taste for 2,000 word dissertations on gegenpressing (what Joe Fagan would have called defending from the front in 1984), but Klopp understands when a left footer from 20 yards finds the top corner, it is the point of entry that stirs the soul of spectators.

To rush into the press room in the emotional aftermath to ask the manager about the hours of unseen work that has gone into ensuring Salah is in the right position to pick his spot would be akin to asking Francis Ford Coppola to detail why the cinematography in the Godfather Part II was fundamental to Robert De Niro’s majestic performance.

Klopp is more generous in his time than most managers, so naturally there seems less mystery about him given his willingness to discuss a range of subjects. He will never be regarded an introverted, eccentric professor spending his spare time reviewing DVDs of the last performance – even though this is precisely what he does.

Klopp is portrayed in many ways, some of which seem fair, others ridiculously caricatured. But when dishing out the eulogies for the greatest tacticians of modern European football, the Liverpool coach must be recognised alongside Guardiola.

After a prolonged era where tedious pragmatism has dominated tactical approaches domestically, in European competition and especially in international games, we must hope the Manchester City and Liverpool manager inspire an enlightened age of progressive, entertaining and most thrillingly of all, daring football.

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics (*)
« Reply #7497 on: April 26, 2018, 01:20:24 am »
I wish I understood how football managers minds work.

I loved Rafa to bits - I started supporting as a 12 year old when we were under Houllier. Rafa was something else. Set his teams up perfectly to counter the opposition.

I feel Jurgen is just as effective, but he imposes his style on the opposition, no matter who they are. There are adjustments but our style is largely the same.

I don't think Klopp would put Gerrard at LM in a CL QF like Rafa did for example. It worked - fucking everything wacky Rafa did worked in Europe! I feel like they're so different as managers and people - do have one thing in common though, both are world class managers.

Feels fucking great to know the man steering the ship is ace.

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics (*)
« Reply #7498 on: April 26, 2018, 06:44:27 am »
Thoughts on Henderson's performance as a No. 6 in the CL this season? I know we've debated that position a lot, but what can you say after some of the monster performances he's been putting in.
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Offline Gutzon Borglum

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics (*)
« Reply #7499 on: April 26, 2018, 06:44:56 am »
I'm not a Lovren-hater, I share Klopp's recently stated view that he is a very good player. I don't think our other options are good enough however, and I'd like to see us use this window as an opportunity to bring in another centreback who can really push Lovren for his spot. Who realistically is out there good enough, young enough and buyable enough, with the aggressive attributes necessary to succeed in our system?

Murmurs coming out of City that Stones isn't happy as 4th choice, his home grown status and qualities as a footballer should surely interest us, with Milner and Lallana aging and Sturridge surely leaving, it would be intelligent for us to make moves for the best young english talent capable of fitting into our system. Gimenez from Atletico was mentioned by Melissa Reddy after Van Dijk was signed, but would he be able to transition from Simeone's system to ours successfully?

The personnel we have's main weakness is situations when we have lots of the ball, and when we have none of it. Improved depth at AM/WF and CB are key ways to rectify this for me, of course this elusive new #6/"Emre Can replacement" seems to be the most vital piece of the puzzle.

Rumours suggesting Jorginho is off to City suggest that option may be dead in the water. I don't understand why we aren't moving heaven and earth to bring Julian Weigl to this club, but maybe we are behind the scenes, who knows..

I've never been so obsessed with a transfer window as I am this season, it honestly feels like this window could transform us to the best Liverpool side since the 1980's if we bring the right lads in.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2018, 06:52:59 am by Bob Sacomano »

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics (*)
« Reply #7500 on: April 26, 2018, 06:51:25 am »
Thoughts on Henderson's performance as a No. 6 in the CL this season? I know we've debated that position a lot, but what can you say after some of the monster performances he's been putting in.

I think he is brilliant, and his recent form particularly in Europe has been incredible, but I also think Babu is right about his lack of ability both in the air and playing on the half-turn being unideal. With Emre Can leaving we will need to sign another player who can at least compete with him for his spot in the XI, so we might as well sign the best possible fit for our system out there. That isn't to say Hendo still isn't a really good option at #6 for us, when he reaches peak fitness his physical attributes really shine there and he's improved a lot tactically for me. Also, we he gets on the ball with a bit of time he has the ability to penetrate which not many who play that position share.

This side has one foot in the European Cup final on merit, the only way to really improve it is to replace players who are already pretty damn good.

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics (*)
« Reply #7501 on: April 26, 2018, 06:52:10 am »
I've never been so obsessed with a transfer window as I am this season, it honestly feels like this window could transform us to the best Liverpool side since the 1980's if we bring the right lads in.

Hah, couldn't agree more. Perhaps the last time was during the Rafa era, where I felt the right attackers (1 or 2) could finish the puzzle. Alas, we never got one I felt.

With this team, I think it's about getting the right Can and Coutinho replacement and we are set (and I expect Woodburn, Grujic, Wilson etc to provide the right depth). Honestly, if Can and Coutinho stayed, I'd say this team is as good as it gets (with Keita coming in).
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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics (*)
« Reply #7502 on: April 26, 2018, 06:52:41 am »
Stones is a shit defender. Made his reputation off being a so called good ball playing centre back. Just like Rodwell was gonna be great, and Barkley. Give Everton there dues, they know how to pull the wool over people's eyes when it comes to selling players.

But yeah he isn't very good at defending. We need dominant aerial players at the back, we have one and we need another.

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics (*)
« Reply #7503 on: April 26, 2018, 06:54:10 am »
I think he is brilliant, and his recent form particularly in Europe has been incredible, but I also think Babu is right about his lack of ability both in the air and playing on the half-turn being unideal. With Emre Can leaving we will need to sign another player who can at least compete with him for his spot in the XI, so we might as well sign the best possible fit for our system out there. That isn't to say Hendo still isn't a really good option at #6 for us, when he reaches peak fitness his physical attributes really shine there and he's improved a lot tactically for me. Also, we he gets on the ball with a bit of time he has the ability to penetrate which not many who play that position share.

This side has one foot in the European Cup final on merit, the only way to really improve it is to replace players who are already pretty damn good.

Fair point Bob. I think it might make sense to sign someone who can play both the No. 6 and No. 8 role (Rabiot?!). That won't compromise Henderson's position in the team too much. Seems like Jorginho is going to City, so Babu was right about him not fitting Klopp's profile it seems.

Though I'm interested to see why City are going in for him, as he is aerially poor compared to Fernandinho.
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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics (*)
« Reply #7504 on: April 26, 2018, 07:00:15 am »
Stones is a shit defender. Made his reputation off being a so called good ball playing centre back. Just like Rodwell was gonna be great, and Barkley. Give Everton there dues, they know how to pull the wool over people's eyes when it comes to selling players.

But yeah he isn't very good at defending. We need dominant aerial players at the back, we have one and we need another.

Is he poor in the air, I'd like to see the stats guys provide some insight there? When I have watched him play for City I didn't see him really make that many errors, never watched him play for Everton that nuch because Everton are shite and so I only really watch them play against us. If he isn't good enough, I hope we do everything we can to bring Sessegnon in because we need as many good homegrown footballers as possible.

But yes, I agree that we need defenders who are aerially dominant. It is shame to say it but Matip just doesn't seem aggressive enough for this team, despite his physical and technical ability. Lovren is far better aerially for me because he attacks the ball with the intensity you need to succeed in the premier league.

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics (*)
« Reply #7505 on: April 26, 2018, 07:09:33 am »
Fair point Bob. I think it might make sense to sign someone who can play both the No. 6 and No. 8 role (Rabiot?!). That won't compromise Henderson's position in the team too much. Seems like Jorginho is going to City, so Babu was right about him not fitting Klopp's profile it seems.

Though I'm interested to see why City are going in for him, as he is aerially poor compared to Fernandinho.

Maybe City want to play him as an #8? Silva is getting on a bit, and Gundogan isn't the most reliably fit player in the world. It's a bit of an embarassment of riches there isn't it..  ::)

There isn't many in world football capable of keeping Fernandinho out of the side. He's world class. Maybe they feel Jorginho can at least give them an option there if they go 3 at the back behind him if Fernandinho was injured or suspended.

For us, with Keita coming in and a Coutinho replacement still to be signed, I'm less and less arsed about Jorginho every day. I think Babu's arguments about what kind of player we would need to buy to replace Can that would actually be an upgrade on Henderson in our system (which I don't think Can was or is, due to his tactical deficiencies) are as sound as fuck, and as I have seen a decent amount of Dortmund games over the past couple years, I can see why Babu chubs up over Julian Weigl because he is perfect for that role in our side.

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics (*)
« Reply #7506 on: April 26, 2018, 07:13:06 am »
Maybe City want to play him as an #8? Silva is getting on a bit, and Gundogan isn't the most reliably fit player in the world. It's a bit of an embarassment of riches there isn't it..  ::)

There isn't many in world football capable of keeping Fernandinho out of the side. He's world class. Maybe they feel Jorginho can at least give them an option there if they go 3 at the back behind him if Fernandinho was injured or suspended.

For us, with Keita coming in and a Coutinho replacement still to be signed, I'm less and less arsed about Jorginho every day. I think Babu's arguments about what kind of player we would need to buy to replace Can that would actually be an upgrade on Henderson in our system (which I don't think Can was or is, due to his tactical deficiencies) are as sound as fuck, and as I have seen a decent amount of Dortmund games over the past couple years, I can see why Babu chubs up over Julian Weigl because he is perfect for that role in our side.

Oh, I totally agree. Jorginho looks like a wonderful footballer (a bit like Xabi), but I think lacks the physicality and aerial prowess Xabi had. You just gotta say - you know Klopp and the rest will sign the right player. It's happened too many times for it to be just a coincidence. I'm less fussed about WHO we sign. I think whoever we sign, the coaching staff will make sure they fit in like a glove and develop into proper players.
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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics (*)
« Reply #7507 on: April 26, 2018, 10:29:49 am »
When it comes to DMs i hear weigl, Saul and fabinho's names a lot. Why does no one mention Ruben Neves?? He's like Marco verratti the way I see him plays, and can also shoot. Surely we need this guy in our team before someone else gets him.

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics (*)
« Reply #7508 on: April 26, 2018, 10:49:25 am »
When it comes to DMs i hear weigl, Saul and fabinho's names a lot. Why does no one mention Ruben Neves?? He's like Marco verratti the way I see him plays, and can also shoot. Surely we need this guy in our team before someone else gets him.

He has been mentioned in this very thread and there are noises, probably put out by his agent Jorges Mendes, that Liverpool would be interested in tacking him.

It would seem a no-brainer which may mean we are not looking at, since Neves has cut his teeth in English football playing at the pace of the Championship. Pep Linders, former Liverpool coach was a huge fan so there is no way Neves is not on LFC's radar.

Who knows whether he is what Klopp has in mind..
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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics (*)
« Reply #7509 on: April 26, 2018, 10:54:26 am »
It got locked as Serbian posted in it during the game I think.

It will be an interesting 4 weeks ahead. I suspect at some point we will see how Klopp solves the problem of playing without a midfield. Although Mourinho has been doing this all season!

Obviously Henderson, Milner and Wijnaldum first choice. Then Trent (with Clyne at RB), then Woodburn, then Curtis Jones. Lallana training next week apparently.

Regarding Curtis Jones, apparently he's good. I don't watch youth games, so I wonder if anyone who has seen him play reckons he could do a job at least for 20 minutes off the bench, or if it's too early?

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics (*)
« Reply #7510 on: April 26, 2018, 11:17:51 am »
When it comes to DMs i hear weigl, Saul and fabinho's names a lot. Why does no one mention Ruben Neves?? He's like Marco verratti the way I see him plays, and can also shoot. Surely we need this guy in our team before someone else gets him.

With Jorginho off to city you'd assume Neves would be next in line. Slightly different player but with the main strengths still the same and younger. Would be made up with the signing.

Weirdly I'd take 3 players from championship. Sessegnon, Neves and even Maddison at Norwich. All 3 would add to the squad. We would also have the best 3 young English players <21. TAA, Seseegnon and Maddison.

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics (*)
« Reply #7511 on: April 26, 2018, 11:19:59 am »
Ultimately, for all his faults Henderson is still probably the best presser, with the best engine and long passing range (now Phil's gone) in the squad. If we do end up signing a tall ball player to sit at the base of midfield I'd be fascinated to see how Henderson and Keita would do in a two ahead of him.

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics (*)
« Reply #7512 on: April 26, 2018, 11:29:30 am »
Ultimately, for all his faults Henderson is still probably the best presser, with the best engine and long passing range (now Phil's gone) in the squad. If we do end up signing a tall ball player to sit at the base of midfield I'd be fascinated to see how Henderson and Keita would do in a two ahead of him.

I really think the Jorginho/Neves type if we get one won't be the deepest midfielder. I think Hendo will be first choice in that role next year. I'm not sold on him as no.6 but Klopp is imo.





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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics (*)
« Reply #7513 on: April 26, 2018, 11:31:55 am »
Question for those who have seen Keita play more than me, do you reckon he'll play more in the "Ox role" at the tip of the midfield three or in the 8 role?
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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics (*)
« Reply #7514 on: April 26, 2018, 11:38:40 am »
Question for those who have seen Keita play more than me, do you reckon he'll play more in the "Ox role" at the tip of the midfield three or in the 8 role?

He can do both. I'd have him and Chamberlain for the advanced role and sell lallana. If Keita plays how he has been he'll be first name on team sheet in that midfield.

Reckon Klopp will see him as more a no.8 but that's a pure guess.

Chamberlain, Keita, Wijnaldum, Henderson, Milner and new player should be enough. I just don't see the point in keeping Lallana now, he's 30 on high wage and never fit.

For what it's worth.

When we go against the weaker sides I'd love to see a midfield of Chamberlain, Keita and someone like Neves.

« Last Edit: April 26, 2018, 11:57:53 am by clinical »
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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics (*)
« Reply #7515 on: April 26, 2018, 12:03:12 pm »
Ultimately, for all his faults Henderson is still probably the best presser, with the best engine and long passing range (now Phil's gone) in the squad. If we do end up signing a tall ball player to sit at the base of midfield I'd be fascinated to see how Henderson and Keita would do in a two ahead of him.

Ox and Lallana bring far more to the table going forward than Henderson does.

Think we're fine at number 6 with him. After CB and a genuine option for rotation for the front 3, I think its the place we could most easily improve though. Good player, outstanding attitude, but not an elite level midfielder. Keita is, and Ox is well on his way to becoming one.

Henderson still has a role to play here though. Will easily start 30+games and his leadership skills are improving every year.
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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics (*)
« Reply #7516 on: April 26, 2018, 12:04:30 pm »
Ultimately, for all his faults Henderson is still probably the best presser, with the best engine and long passing range (now Phil's gone) in the squad. If we do end up signing a tall ball player to sit at the base of midfield I'd be fascinated to see how Henderson and Keita would do in a two ahead of him.

Of late I've been thinking Trent's passing range is quite ridiculous for  RB. Really fucking good.
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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics (*)
« Reply #7517 on: April 26, 2018, 01:48:00 pm »
Ultimately, for all his faults Henderson is still probably the best presser, with the best engine and long passing range (now Phil's gone) in the squad. If we do end up signing a tall ball player to sit at the base of midfield I'd be fascinated to see how Henderson and Keita would do in a two ahead of him.

Fair do's I have started changing my views on Hendo, he's been brilliant of late; and we have accept how commanding he was in running the likes of Naingollan in that Roma midfield at Anfield.

There is no harm adding quality to the mix, as we surely will with Keita + one other this summer. JH has a big role to play next term, even though we will be able to rest him which will be important as well.

Many like to point out Jordan's faults but perhaps they fail to realize no team has ever had the perfect footballer in every position. But you can have a captain who complements the team around him, who also brings many qualities to the table.

To compete with City etc next year, if Jordan has to sit on the bench or Rabiot does - so be it. We are Liverpool.
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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics (*)
« Reply #7518 on: April 26, 2018, 02:00:56 pm »
With Jorginho off to city you'd assume Neves would be next in line. Slightly different player but with the main strengths still the same and younger. Would be made up with the signing.

Weirdly I'd take 3 players from championship. Sessegnon, Neves and even Maddison at Norwich. All 3 would add to the squad. We would also have the best 3 young English players <21. TAA, Seseegnon and Maddison.

The homegrown rule is important. You can saw the shite Chelsea had to bring in to meet it.

Just because a journalist says something doesn't mean it's automatically true.

His agent was recently quoted saying '“But if I speak with four or five teams who like Jorginho, that doesn’t mean anything is done or that he’ll leave.” Seems to me that was in relation to the City news.

https://www.football-italia.net/120396/jorginho-agent-%E2%80%98talking-others-but%E2%80%A6%E2%80%99

Loads of people thought VVD was City bound and we signed him... let's wait and see.

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics (*)
« Reply #7519 on: April 26, 2018, 02:21:11 pm »
Of late I've been thinking Trent's passing range is quite ridiculous for  RB. Really fucking good.

Don't think it, know it.

Even Tuesday night, he played numerous vertical passes which were really top draw, the first time pass into space for Salah leading to the Mane goal was the pick of the bunch. Appreciation of the space, the anticipation to do it first time and the execution were all world class.