Topic: Safe Standing ( split from: Liverpool confirm decision to redevelop Anfield)

[CraigDS]

Trigonometry 

[Peter McGurk]

Just to clarify here...... I’ve never mentioned ‘steps’ or ‘depth’. I’m talking about the seat PITCH..... the distance between one seat and the seat IN FRONT of or BEHIND it!
The 800mm comes from recommendations on the Safe Standing Roadshow website.
Yes the Kop base would need to be dug out and a new one laid with steps 400mm front-to-back by whatever depth (HEIGHT) they need to be to get the required gradient (sorry but I can’t do the maths on my mobile for that dimension).


Sent from my iPhone8

Calm down son. We all know what a seat pitch is.

Fact is there are no guidelines for safe standing in the UK. It’s new. But it has been done in less than 800mm and you can comply with what guidelines there are for both standing and sitting on the Kop as an existing stand.

There is (or was - it’s gone up to 850) a standard of 800mm for sitting in new stands, which may be what the safe standing site is based on.

There’s no point comparing the finances of an 800 pitch with the kop without taking the cost of rebuild into account because if it has to be rebuilt, it’s no contest.

[So… Howard Philips]

If the Kop has a gradient of 23degrees..... 400mm x 169.6mm steps would be required.  If it’s not 23degrees, then the height will be slightly different...


Sent from my iPhone8

There's more detail in your back of a fag packet plan than anything Everton have shown so far.

[Danny Boy]

Interesting article on MailOnline today about MUST (Man Utd Supporters Trust) meeting with the board regarding issues with OT and how to get the atmosphere back. To be fair, it reads exactly like Anfield:
-Intro of safe standing
- Cheaper kids tickets
- Easier for people to sit together
- Less corporate sections

[Suareznumber7]

Interesting article on MailOnline today about MUST (Man Utd Supporters Trust) meeting with the board regarding issues with OT and how to get the atmosphere back. To be fair, it reads exactly like Anfield:
-Intro of safe standing
- Cheaper kids tickets
- Easier for people to sit together
- Less corporate sections

Surely the shit football they watch every week is on the agenda too right?

[ghost1359]

Interesting article on MailOnline today about MUST (Man Utd Supporters Trust) meeting with the board regarding issues with OT and how to get the atmosphere back. To be fair, it reads exactly like Anfield:
-Intro of safe standing
- Cheaper kids tickets
- Easier for people to sit together
- Less corporate sections

Loads of people took the piss out of them for that and I've no idea why.

All fan groups of all clubs should be supporting each other and the fans should too. A victory for any of them is a victory for all of us.

[andy07]

Loads of people took the piss out of them for that and I've no idea why.

All fan groups of all clubs should be supporting each other and the fans should too. A victory for any of them is a victory for all of us.

Indeed, a collective approach is needed.

[Macred]

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/celtic-invite-liverpool-fans-parkhead-12265231

[Macred]

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/could-rail-seating-actually-improve-14486662

[Samie]

Not LFC relate but could be interesting.

West Brom have had a proposal to introduce safe standing at The Hawthorns rejected by the government. More: https://bbc.in/2uY4RL3

West Brom have had a proposal to introduce safe standing at The Hawthorns rejected by the government.

The pilot scheme would have meant 3,600 seats in the Smethwick End were converted to 'rail seats', which can be locked in an upright position.

West Brom - who are bottom of the Premier League - hoped to install them in time for the start of next season.

But sports minister Tracey Crouch says there are no plans to change the all-seater policy at football stadiums.

[Gazza-LFC]

Not LFC relate but could be interesting.

West Brom have had a proposal to introduce safe standing at The Hawthorns rejected by the government. More: https://bbc.in/2uY4RL3

Allowable in Lower league Football, Rugby and Scotland but not in England's top leagues. Very strange.

[poopscoop]

It took the shitehouses 27 years to acknowldege that standing had nothing to do with what happened in 1989. It is true to form that this proposal is binned without proper scrutiny by an ill-informed bureaucrat.

[CraigDS]

The thing is it was always going to be binned because it's against current regulations.

The correct course of action is changing the regulation and then put in the application. Hopefully WBA knew this though and this was more of a publicity stunt to try and drum up more support to bring about debate surrounding the current regs.

[iamnant]

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/could-rail-seating-actually-improve-14486662

I know it's an incredibly sensitive subject, as we're all aware, and want to be as respectful as possible here, but the last paragraph disappointed me slightly:

"The HFSG told the ECHO following the SOS trip to Celtic: 'The views of the majority of HFSG members remain unaltered.'"

So does that mean they'll never change their minds regardless of evidence or testament or is it because they've yet to see it for themselves?

I stand at all games I can at Anfield (I rely on tickets from mates, so depends where the ticket is) and all games I go to for Wales (in the Canton end at Cardiff City stadium [our Kop, if you would] and for all away games) and I don't know how many times I've ended up a few rows in front, or with my foot jammed between the seat in front and the concrete stand - limped home several times, especially in France for the Euros!
The current situation is dangerous, no two ways about it, and whilst there is the cost element to consider, rail seating is a bit of an obvious way forward for safety, no?

[iamnant]

The thing is it was always going to be binned because it's against current regulations.

The correct course of action is changing the regulation and then put in the application. Hopefully WBA knew this though and this was more of a publicity stunt to try and drum up more support to bring about debate surrounding the current regs.

I'd imagine their lawyers knew they didn't have a chance, but that they continued as they knew it would bring up the discussion again and also to see what the support levels are.

With football, you only have to look to Germany to see how football could be if it was ran a bit better - fan owned, rail seating installed years ago, beer in the stadium. Atmosphere is unreal in some of those stadiums because of it, but you hardly hear of any crowd trouble? Unless I'm very much mistaken?

[So… Howard Philips]

It took the shitehouses 27 years to acknowldege that standing had nothing to do with what happened in 1989. It is true to form that this proposal is binned without proper scrutiny by an ill-informed bureaucrat.

I stood in the Kop as a skinny teenager and occasionally had a few bruises.

Leaving the Kop at the back on a winter's night was more dangerous. Good ground design, stewarding and policing should make rail seating perfectly safe.

[CraigDS]

With football, you only have to look to Germany to see how football could be if it was ran a bit better - fan owned, rail seating installed years ago, beer in the stadium. Atmosphere is unreal in some of those stadiums because of it, but you hardly hear of any crowd trouble? Unless I'm very much mistaken?

There are fairly big cultural issues which makes for less trouble in Germany than the UK too though.

[iamnant]

There are fairly big cultural issues which makes for less trouble in Germany than the UK too though.

This is true. Just for the record, I'm not advocating beer in the stands...for now

[vblfc]

I'd imagine their lawyers knew they didn't have a chance, but that they continued as they knew it would bring up the discussion again and also to see what the support levels are.

With football, you only have to look to Germany to see how football could be if it was ran a bit better - fan owned, rail seating installed years ago, beer in the stadium. Atmosphere is unreal in some of those stadiums because of it, but you hardly hear of any crowd trouble? Unless I'm very much mistaken?

I think you are right mate.   I live in Berlin and go to the odd Hertha match.  They are not one of the better teams and they play at the Olympic stadium which is a bit like old Wembley (with running track with big gap at ends etc.), but the Ostcurve "kop" support is great craic and something to see at times.  I don't actually go into the curve (too old for that these days) but as you say - It's well organised, safe, boozy, loud, colourful, funny at times. All in a good way and even in the biggest games it looks and feels like it is proper intimidating but safe, organised.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyAuo2KewV8

[paulsheridan08]

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/207040

[Maggie May]

Signed.

[Lolo]

Signed

[In the Name of Klopp]

Done.

[meady1981]

This has slowed right down in the last couple of days. The map shows an overwhelming majority of the signatures coming from Merseyside and Manchester. And Norwich for some reason. Everywhere else pretty lukewarm. Also didn’t realise it’s been running since January and only has until June.

[Macred]

This has slowed right down in the last couple of days. The map shows an overwhelming majority of the signatures coming from Merseyside and Manchester. And Norwich for some reason. Everywhere else pretty lukewarm. Also didn’t realise it’s been running since January and only has until June.

It is not getting enough publicity. I found it on the Skyscraper city thread.

Liverpool Echo had an article today on the petition but did not show it in the LFC or EFC threads just lost somewhere on the main news pages.

It is shocking when the government's own advisers tell them they need to look at rail seats... this is the statement they out out on their own website :https://www.fsoa.org.uk/fsoa-statement-re-decision-to-reject-safe-standing-trial-at-west-bromwich-albion/

[Redsnappa]

Poor response from London (bar Watford), Birmingham, Yorkshire, South Wales and the South Coast.

Lack of success for most of their big teams this year maybe causing the indifference?

[Macred]

English Football League chief executive Shaun Harvey says he is "robustly" asking the government to allow safe standing in football grounds.

In a letter to club bosses, Harvey said there was "significant popular demand" for standing to be allowed.

Sports minister Tracey Crouch rejected a request from West Brom to trial safe standing at The Hawthorns.

The safe-standing rule was introduced following the Taylor Report into the 1989 Hillsborough disaster.

"I can assure you that we do not consider the comments made this week to be the last word on the matter," Harvey wrote.

Full article here.... http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/43791494

Petition is just over 58,000

[Thepooloflife]

signed....

Also, in the other locked thread about ARE where somehow there was discussion about safe-standing when this thread exists - there are one or two posts which reference Hillsborough in the discussion about seats v safe-standing. Can we nail this..........standing wasn't the cause of Hillsborough. We all know what the cause was - and the new inquests confirmed it........96 souls unlawfully killed.

[Samie]

More evidence is needed before safe standing can be allowed at top-flight stadiums, the Premier League has said. https://bbc.in/2JVNg9H

More evidence is needed before safe standing can be allowed at top-flight stadiums, the Premier League has said.

Earlier this month, sports minister Tracey Crouch rejected West Brom's request to trial safe standing.

The legislation forbidding it was introduced following the Taylor Report into the 1989 Hillsborough disaster.

"This subject is complex and nuanced and clearly requires more research," said the Premier League, whose clubs discussed it at a meeting last week.

BBC Sport understands that fans numbering in the low thousands have been asked for their views over the past 16 months by polling company Populus, on behalf of the Premier League.

The statement added: "The results so far suggest a majority of fans like the idea of standing areas in principle but only 5% want to stand for an entire match.

"Additionally, the majority want the option of being able to stand and sit.

"Taking this into account, we understand and appreciate why the Minister for Sport would require far more evidence before considering a change to the current all-seater policy."

On Monday, English Football League chief executive Shaun Harvey said he would "robustly" ask the government to change its stance because of "significant popular demand".

Crouch's decision has been criticised heavily by both fans and safety experts, with an online petition to force the government to debate the issue having amassed more than 56,000 signatures.

West Brom's pilot scheme would have meant 3,600 seats in the Smethwick End were converted to 'rail seats', which can be locked in an upright position.

The Baggies - who are bottom of the Premier League - hoped to install them in time for next season.

Scottish Premiership leaders Celtic introduced safe standing in the summer of 2016.

Manager Brendan Rodgers endorsed the move, saying it helped to create a "better ambience", but admitted "it may not be for every club".

The All Party Parliamentary Group for Football is set to discuss the issue on 1 May.

[andyw79]

More evidence is needed before safe standing can be allowed at top-flight stadiums, the Premier League has said. https://bbc.in/2JVNg9H

Not sure how you can stand or sit unless it's talking about having a seat before the game or at halftime, if someone is standing in front of you, well you will need to stand  to see unless you have a neck on ye like a giraffe!

[Macred]

Good to see the PL cover this up and suddenly as pressure builds... there's a survey... of who, which people, they could have just asked people in the equivalent of the main stand. What questions did they ask...  so this is why a debate is needed where this information is made  public. And who at the PL did this... cos nearly all clubs have indicated they want it.

The petition thing is now at 65,000.  We need more votes! Tell your mates.

[lfc79]

It would be nice to get more signatures on the petition, there are at least 60,000 away fans each week in the premier league who stand every game, guess there might be a sense of apathy that the government never respond or debate nay of these petitions regardless of the number of signatures.
The premier league survey sounds like rubbish without providing any data behind it, anyone on here get asked about it, I gave them my email to do the fantasy football and have had several survey's about the premier league logo etc but nothing about this.
Fact is there is a pretty good indication of the minimum number of fans who want standing, the people who are currently standing in each stadium for every game!

[meady1981]

I think we assume everyone intensely uses social media these days when they don’t. I’m pretty ‘with it’ and I don’t have twitter or Facebook, I was told about this by a mate. I guarantee if somebody handed out flyers to every away game this weekend then the total would sky rocket.
I read the other day that supporters groups got 30k actual signatures to protest about seats on the kop in the early 90’s, where as you look at the heat maps on the petition and there’s a few thousand from Merseyside.

[Maggie May]

signed....

Also, in the other locked thread about ARE where somehow there was discussion about safe-standing when this thread exists - there are one or two posts which reference Hillsborough in the discussion about seats v safe-standing. Can we nail this..........standing wasn't the cause of Hillsborough. We all know what the cause was - and the new inquests confirmed it........96 souls unlawfully killed.

The HFSG have flatly refused to entertain any kind of standing.  That this flies in the face of the inquest verdicts and that the safe standing designs bear no resemblance to the terraces of 1989 makes no matter to them.  That their views should outweigh the wishes of thousands of matchgoing supporters is absurd.

[Nessy76]

The HFSG have flatly refused to entertain any kind of standing.  That this flies in the face of the inquest verdicts and that the safe standing designs bear no resemblance to the terraces of 1989 makes no matter to them.  That their views should outweigh the wishes of thousands of matchgoing supporters is absurd.

Perhaps, but certain quarters of the media would absolutely slaughter the club if it went against their wishes.

[Thepooloflife]

The HFSG have flatly refused to entertain any kind of standing.  That this flies in the face of the inquest verdicts and that the safe standing designs bear no resemblance to the terraces of 1989 makes no matter to them.  That their views should outweigh the wishes of thousands of matchgoing supporters is absurd.

I understand their position - I was there myself, and I totally respect their viewpoint. I was against standing too, when I first heard about this idea.....but, 'safe-standing' in rail-seats is a completely different concept as you rightly point out. Since I went up to Celtic with SOS recently, to see and experience their safe-standing area, I've had my mind completely changed on this issue. In a meeting with the police commander for the West of Scotland and Celtic's stadium safety officer they explained how they were now both in favour of safe-standing and convinced me and I think the rest of the group who went up also, on the grounds that it is actually safer standing in a 'rail-seat' than standing in a seated area, which happens at present. I know the HFSG have a viewpoint on this and can understand why and agree with what Nessy has said there about the club potentially going against their wishes - but, I think all we're asking for is a wider informed debate to take place with as many fans as possible at this stage.

[rob1966]

Signed

Now at 83,300

[meady1981]

Signed

Now at 83,300

Seems inconceivable it won’t reach the target.
It looks like the FA and Tracy Crouches recent conviction that no one wants this has actually backfired on them and galvanised people into fighting for it. Politicians will never learn.

[Jake]

They'll continue to treat football fans like shit though. Wouldn't expect any less from the tory scum.

I hope this keeps gathering momentum, shame the league didn't push for it, but glad the football league are.

[Billy Elliot]

Just signed it (was at Hillsborough).  Didn't know anything about the petition.  It'd easily get 100,000 if it was well publicised.