Author Topic: One in seven Britons believe in creationism over evolutionism  (Read 188144 times)

Offline Zeppelin

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Re: One in seven Britons believe in creationism over evolution
« Reply #160 on: July 2, 2009, 06:38:32 pm »
The opposite is the truth.


You can say that as often as you like, but it won't make it right

Offline The Gulleysucker

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Re: One in seven Britons believe in creationism over evolution
« Reply #161 on: July 2, 2009, 06:45:02 pm »
The opposite is the truth.

Nah, Truth is apposite to describe evolution ;)
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Offline Barney_Rubble

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Re: One in seven Britons believe in creationism over evolution
« Reply #162 on: July 2, 2009, 06:51:03 pm »

Opinion v Opinion.

Acceptance of that which fits in with what you believe, and rejection of the inconvenient things that don't, is the sum of "evidence" for the evolution hypothesis. There are thousands of unanswered questions which are simply ignored by evolutionists.

As everyone seems agreed that evolution is unprovable, then offering proof is a pointless excercise. Paleontology is largely guesswork and assumption. Concensus can be reached but nothing can ever be demonstrably proved as an absolute fact.

In the end, you either believe or you don't.



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Offline Mimi

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Re: One in seven Britons believe in creationism over evolution
« Reply #163 on: July 2, 2009, 06:52:29 pm »
Assumptions, theorising, opinions and speculations.

It's the utter reverse of science. It starts with the answer, then works backwards to try to prove it.


Evolution/creationism debate also raises the question of what science is. Our modern society is built upon the mythology of science as a pursuit of the certain and the antithesis to faith. But the scientific profession has always been about faith in a matrix of beliefs.

And the affirmation of that faith is limited to our technology and its ability/inability to show us an alternative to that matrix at any given moment. Zepplin is correct in saying: " In scientific terms, the amount of evidence is so overwhelming that the theory is an accepted scientific fact." This to me is the very definition of faith in the matrix, in this particular case evolution. It is "scientific fact" only in that most scientists have faith in that system. Not because it is a natural truth. It is conceivable that years down the line some physical piece of evidence or another conflicting theory will arise and convert scientists to some other view of evolution or cause them to revise what we take to be "scientific fact" today.

And Barney is equally correct in questioning the beliefs that compromise the evolutionary matrix.

I would say assumptions, theorising, opinions and speculations are a perfect description of science and especially the moments when a groundbreaking discovery forces us to alter our faith in the matrix. The image of scientific certainty is only plausible because of faith.

In Feynman's Rainbow, Leonard Mlodinow describes how Richard Feynman changed the accepted matrix of quantum theory with his diagrams and new mathematical approach:

"Feynman's approach was hard for physicists at the time to grasp and accept. The so-called "path integrals" he had invented to sum the paths were mathematically unproven, and, at times, ill-defined. [...]. Physicists demanded proof. They wanted a mathematical derivation of his formulae starting from the usual formulation of quantum theory. But he had developed his method employing inution and physical reasoning--- plus plenty of trial and error. He couldn't prove it. When he presented his method at a conference in 1948, he was roundly attacked by star physicists like Niels Bohr, Edward Teller, and Paul Dirac. They demanded the Greek approach [the Platonic belief in there being an underlying order to nature], and here he was, a Babylonian [ the Aristotelian approach--- the abstract or underlying order approach to nature is a myth or convenience; we ought to be more concerned with the phenomena we perceive with our senses]. Yet in the end they could not ignore him: He could do theoretical calculations in a half hour that took them months." (27, 29)

It's not wrong that science does start with an answer and then starts going backwards trying to prove it in theory and in experimentation. It's only natural that the scientific process would begin this way. But it is important to recognize the fluidity in science. It's the rigidity of creationism that annoys me. Not the idea that God is the source of all life.
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Offline Zeppelin

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Re: One in seven Britons believe in creationism over evolution
« Reply #164 on: July 2, 2009, 06:59:00 pm »
Opinion v Opinion.



Evolution - Informed opinion, based on the available evidence v Creationism - opinion based on fairy stories

There are certainly unanswered questions about evolution - that's how theories are tested. Just because they are currently unanswered, doesn't mean they are unanswerable. It would be surprising if there were no unanswered questions on such a hugely complex subject. What is important is that none of these questions pose an insurmountable barrier to evolution - there are no 'rabbit fossils in the pre - cambrian.' I await someone to pose such a question?

Offline The Gulleysucker

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Re: One in seven Britons believe in creationism over evolution
« Reply #165 on: July 2, 2009, 08:15:38 pm »
I've read it again and still can't understand it

It's alright, I've just had a chat with a mate who's a Priest and he's going to say some prayers to St Jude to intercede on your behalf.
It's bound to work and should make things easier for you. ;)
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Re: One in seven Britons believe in creationism over evolution
« Reply #166 on: July 2, 2009, 08:54:16 pm »
The opposite is the truth.


Lets hear it then, one piece of evidence that contradicts it
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Re: One in seven Britons believe in creationism over evolution
« Reply #167 on: July 2, 2009, 10:11:55 pm »
I really do get tired of this debate. This whole thread just seems to be full of scientific people who don't really understand religion and religious people who don't seem to understand science.

I'm not gonna come on here and pretend to know anything about evolution, and start trying to discredit it because I will just look like an idiot. All I know is what I believe in, and those beliefs aren't going to waver just because someone waves a Darwin book in my face saying I don't have a right to vote.

Offline BazC

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Re: One in seven Britons believe in creationism over evolution
« Reply #168 on: July 2, 2009, 10:35:32 pm »
The theory of evolution (Darwinian) is possibly the most amazing theory I've encountered... just so elegant. Creationism, on the other hand, had a good life as a 'stop gap' solution when humans weren't able to put forward a more 'realistic' theory (I'm not saying Darwin's theory's the absolute 'truth'- just that it's doing a pretty fucking good job of making us believe it is!) but it's almost despairing how people can still peddle Creationism when they have knowledge of Darwin's theory of Evolution.

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Re: One in seven Britons believe in creationism over evolution
« Reply #169 on: July 2, 2009, 11:37:48 pm »
I really enjoy reading these debates and thank all those who take the time to put such effort into constructing such excellent posts (on both sides of the argument).

The thing that I notice time and time again in these arguments is that Creationists (and proponents of Creationism who don't define themselves as strict Creationists) do their utmost to discredit the overwhelming evidence provided by Evolutionists despite offering little (or indeed no) evidence to support Creationism itself.

It's like this all-encompassing 'faith' should be enough in itself. That is, someone's belief that something is true, despite no evidence at all and massive evidence to the contrary, should be evidence in itself that what they have faith in is true. Doesn't sit right with me.

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Re: One in seven Britons believe in creationism over evolution
« Reply #170 on: July 2, 2009, 11:40:05 pm »

It's like this all-encompassing 'faith' should be enough in itself.

For people who have faith, it is.

Offline Veinticinco de Mayo

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Re: One in seven Britons believe in creationism over evolution
« Reply #171 on: July 3, 2009, 12:18:35 am »
Mimi, that is a brilliant post.  It does all indeed come down to a misunderstanding of science, or a disagreement about how science works.  You were very generous in granting both sides were right, well I'm an old curmudgeon, who has had a few too many and I say they are both wrong.

Barney is wrong because he says it's not science because it is not proven. Nothing is proven, never will be, it is just explained to the best of our ability at the time.

Corky is wrong because he says it is proven it isn't.  There is a huge bank of evidence that supports it, enough I would warrant to secure you a conviction beyond reasonable doubt, but it is not proven, every theory is but an Einstein and an Eddington away from biting the dust.
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Re: One in seven Britons believe in creationism over evolution
« Reply #172 on: July 3, 2009, 12:28:12 am »
Corky is wrong because he says it is proven it isn't.
Is any one piece of evidence absolutely conclusive? Of course not, we're not fucking stupid.

VdeM, you consistently characterise my positions as more extreme than they are.

There, I said it.

Offline Veinticinco de Mayo

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Re: One in seven Britons believe in creationism over evolution
« Reply #173 on: July 3, 2009, 12:42:05 am »
Consistently, your honour?
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Offline Veinticinco de Mayo

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Re: One in seven Britons believe in creationism over evolution
« Reply #174 on: July 3, 2009, 12:43:25 am »
You can get proof of evolution, here's an example.
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Offline hide5seek

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Re: One in seven Britons believe in creationism over evolution
« Reply #175 on: July 3, 2009, 01:04:11 am »
I just wanna know if we're all created equal how come we're not?

Offline Grushko

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Re: One in seven Britons believe in creationism over evolution
« Reply #176 on: July 3, 2009, 01:12:44 am »
Mimi, that is a brilliant post.  It does all indeed come down to a misunderstanding of science, or a disagreement about how science works.  You were very generous in granting both sides were right, well I'm an old curmudgeon, who has had a few too many and I say they are both wrong.

Barney is wrong because he says it's not science because it is not proven. Nothing is proven, never will be, it is just explained to the best of our ability at the time.

Corky is wrong because he says it is proven it isn't.  There is a huge bank of evidence that supports it, enough I would warrant to secure you a conviction beyond reasonable doubt, but it is not proven, every theory is but an Einstein and an Eddington away from biting the dust.
So everyone is wrong except for the great moderator that is Veinticinco de Mayo?  :P
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Offline The Gulleysucker

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Re: One in seven Britons believe in creationism over evolution
« Reply #177 on: July 3, 2009, 01:36:41 am »
So everyone is wrong except for the great moderator that is Veinticinco de Mayo?  :P

And why ever not, he is the Chief Moderator of the Holy Church of RAWK. ;)

Sort of like Papal infallibility I guess, so I wouldn't argue with him too much, you might end up as one of the mysterious Desaparecidos ;D
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Offline The Gulleysucker

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Re: One in seven Britons believe in creationism over evolution
« Reply #178 on: July 3, 2009, 01:48:54 am »
I just wanna know if we're all created equal how come we're not?

Well, derived from OT Bible quotations and interpretations, Christianity and the Jewish faith would generally would say that we are all equal since we are created imperfectly but in the image and likeness of God.

But, we are also gifted by God with the choice of free will, but do have responsibilities for our actions.

And handily, God also gives us talents, so we are all gifted in some way, though some gifts are less obvious than others.

But the more talented, the greater will be Gods expectations of you, so how we use our free will and talents in combination determines not only our success or failure in our mortal life and hence differences in wealth and such, but also has great bearing on the afterlife.

Put simply, if your a talented but lazy sod your doomed, anything else and you should be ok'ish, possibly depending on the amount of genuine praying you put in the spiritual bank and the amount of good works you do.

Obviously different strands of Christianity vary their interpretations of these general themes, some much more strictly than others.

It's also a Jefferson quote from Independence, which is why it's sunk into the English speaking consciousness.
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Re: One in seven Britons believe in creationism over evolution
« Reply #179 on: July 3, 2009, 03:52:25 am »
Put simply, if your a talented but lazy sod your doomed...

So Berbatov's going to hell then. That's good.
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Re: One in seven Britons believe in creationism over evolution
« Reply #180 on: July 3, 2009, 10:21:27 am »
Consistently, your honour?


Ok, I see your point.

Much of this thread is about levels of proof, not absolutes. I have seen quite enough evidence for evolution to satisfy me that it is proven. It's the same argument as for the existence of a god, in some respects. I cannot discount the very faint possibility that a god exists but it's highly unlikely. Similarly, I cannot discount the very faint possibility that some other force is at work other than evolution, but it's highly unlikely.

Offline Veinticinco de Mayo

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Re: One in seven Britons believe in creationism over evolution
« Reply #181 on: July 3, 2009, 10:30:46 am »
I think the important bit is that Evolution is currently the best explanation we have as to how the vivid array of plant and animal life on earth came to be.

That being the case it would be foolish to cling to another explanation. 
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Re: One in seven Britons believe in creationism over evolution
« Reply #182 on: July 3, 2009, 11:46:29 am »
Are the mods on some devious fishing expedition here?

This thread is highly perplexing  ???

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Re: One in seven Britons believe in creationism over evolution
« Reply #183 on: July 3, 2009, 11:57:26 am »
Are the mods on some devious fishing expedition here?

This thread is highly perplexing  ???

While Mods aren't human in the strict sense of the word, their genetic coding does allow for them to hold minority views.

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Re: One in seven Britons believe in creationism over evolution
« Reply #184 on: July 3, 2009, 11:59:11 am »
I cannot discount the very faint possibility that a god exists but it's highly unlikely. Similarly, I cannot discount the very faint possibility that some other force is at work other than evolution, but it's highly unlikely.


If you're looking at an explanation of how life on earth has developed and you come to the process of evolution as the answer and on the evidence we are presented with by the scientific community/paleontology then I have no argument with that, especially as a recovering Atheist :P if you think of god as a sentient being like us then yes it's extremely unlikely there is one but I'm starting to interpret those passages of the bible that have been indoctrinated in our minds since birth in very different way such as the idea that god he created us in his own image; if god is simply a creative energy and we are an extension or derivative of that energy then it makes sense to say we've been created in that image.



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Offline Fiend

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Re: One in seven Britons believe in creationism over evolution
« Reply #185 on: July 3, 2009, 12:11:22 pm »
If you're looking at an explanation of how life on earth has developed and you come to the process of evolution as the answer and on the evidence we are presented with by the scientific community/paleontology then I have no argument with that, especially as a recovering Atheist :P if you think of god as a sentient being like us then yes it's extremely unlikely there is one but I'm starting to interpret those passages of the bible that have been indoctrinated in our minds since birth in very different way such as the idea that god he created us in his own image; if god is simply a creative energy and we are an extension or derivative of that energy then it makes sense to say we've been created in that image.

Say it ain't so Bill :(

Offline The Gulleysucker

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Re: One in seven Britons believe in creationism over evolution
« Reply #186 on: July 3, 2009, 02:28:30 pm »
if god is simply a creative energy and we are an extension or derivative of that energy then it makes sense to say we've been created in that image.

Absolutely, I could agree with that and it does make sense in that context. In which case, it perhaps needs no purpose, as its creativeness is just fluctuations for infinity through all possible states, and everything in our perception is just a current manifestation of the state of this energy, which kind of fits in with what science seems to tell us, and yet also could still fit loose rather than literal interpretations of some of the Bible and concepts of eternity.

But it could be argued then, that if there is no real purpose, where or how can there be a divine purpose? Seems nonsensical at first, but perhaps an answer to that could be that yes, it's perfectly feasible and logical to have the concept of what we may sincerely believe and interpret as a valid divine purpose, and also for this to exist in this current cosmological epoch of randomness, but it's a possibility that all we are doing is simply giving some sort of curious comforting meaning to the patterns of tea leaves in the bottom of the cup of our perceived existence.
I'm just inquisitive and before I could unlapse, I would need someone to convincingly prove to me that these tea leaves will have a predictable pattern.:)
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Re: One in seven Britons believe in creationism over evolution
« Reply #187 on: July 3, 2009, 05:38:27 pm »
Say it ain't so Bill :(

Say what ain't so?

But it could be argued then, that if there is no real purpose, where or how can there be a divine purpose? Seems nonsensical at first, but perhaps an answer to that could be that yes, it's perfectly feasible and logical to have the concept of what we may sincerely believe and interpret as a valid divine purpose, and also for this to exist in this current cosmological epoch of randomness, but it's a possibility that all we are doing is simply giving some sort of curious comforting meaning to the patterns of tea leaves in the bottom of the cup of our perceived existence.
I'm just inquisitive and before I could unlapse, I would need someone to convincingly prove to me that these tea leaves will have a predictable pattern.:)


It is possible this energy I speak of is pure consciousness, it is aware of it's existence, how could it not be? If we are then it must be in some sense, but sitting around twiddling your thumbs for eternity is not a great prospect, even if it is in eternal bliss. Also eternal bliss wouldn't really be appreciated or recognised unless you had something to compare it to, therefore it could be that our purpose is to provide a point of comparability so we are able to know true bliss when we encounter it and also learn about ourselves in this three dimensional universe through subjective interaction with the many different aspects of our divine selves.
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Re: One in seven Britons believe in creationism over evolution
« Reply #188 on: July 3, 2009, 06:04:35 pm »
Say what ain't so?

It is possible this energy I speak of is pure consciousness, it is aware of it's existence, how could it not be?

It's generally accepted that consciousness is a function of the brain. I mean apart from the apes, there's debate to how self-aware other higher life forms are. If there's uncertainty that say a dog is self aware, then I can't see how anybody could argue that a rock or a beam of light has to be.
It is most odd.

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Re: One in seven Britons believe in creationism over evolution
« Reply #189 on: July 3, 2009, 06:27:22 pm »
Say what ain't so?

A 'recovering atheist' sends shivers down my bones. Good luck to you with your journey through life with your imaginary friend. What ever gets you through this life I suppose.

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Re: One in seven Britons believe in creationism over evolution
« Reply #190 on: July 3, 2009, 06:28:52 pm »
It is possible this energy I speak of is pure consciousness, it is aware of it's existence, how could it not be?

Yes, but I sometimes wonder if perhaps such energy is aware through us and that could then be described as it's purpose, as we are one with it and thus it is one with us.
I believe the dilemma with that from a Christian and possibly Jewish religious aspect is it becomes heretic speak, as it is potentially putting oneself on the same plane as a creator, as in we are all potential God, and not children of God, although this is arguably about linguistic semantics. (Any divinity people on here?)

But if I was to believe, I see nothing wrong in eternity in a pure state being bliss without requiring a reference other than our impure existance.

Certainly many Catholic prayers repeatedly draw upon phrases like perpetual light, infinite love,  in glory everlasting, the life everlasting, and lift them up forever, in reference to this state and then there is the wording of the enigmatic Glory Be    ....As it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be, world without end referencing infinity.

Well it's better than babbling about St Michael of the Owen, a lost soul beyond redemption.
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Re: One in seven Britons believe in creationism over evolution
« Reply #191 on: July 3, 2009, 06:31:23 pm »
A 'recovering atheist' sends shivers down my bones. Good luck to you with your journey through life with your imaginary friend. What ever gets you through this life I suppose.

I just realised the same argument I was using to support my Atheism could also be used to support creationism and neither appeal to me. I believe the truth is somewhere in between.
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Re: One in seven Britons believe in creationism over evolution
« Reply #192 on: July 3, 2009, 10:16:57 pm »
Opinion v Opinion.

Acceptance of that which fits in with what you believe, and rejection of the inconvenient things that don't, is the sum of "evidence" for the evolution hypothesis. There are thousands of unanswered questions which are simply ignored by evolutionists.

As everyone seems agreed that evolution is unprovable, then offering proof is a pointless excercise. Paleontology is largely guesswork and assumption. Concensus can be reached but nothing can ever be demonstrably proved as an absolute fact.

In the end, you either believe or you don't.





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Offline TSC

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Re: One in seven Britons believe in creationism over evolution
« Reply #193 on: July 3, 2009, 10:32:25 pm »
A 'recovering atheist' sends shivers down my bones. Good luck to you with your journey through life with your imaginary friend. What ever gets you through this life I suppose.

Richard Dawkins will create a lot of 'recovering atheists'.  He'll do a better job of religious recruitment than the church could ever do.  They'll just sit back and let him do his stuff.  Saves them a job.

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Re: One in seven Britons believe in creationism over evolution
« Reply #194 on: July 3, 2009, 11:42:27 pm »
Richard Dawkins will create a lot of 'recovering atheists'.  He'll do a better job of religious recruitment than the church could ever do.  They'll just sit back and let him do his stuff.  Saves them a job.

I like Dawkins and his tirade on organised religion, i'm right behind him on that point. I'm not to impressed with the militant atheism part I mean I agree with his point over the idea that organised religion by their very doctrines are extremist and separatist but by that same token so would militant atheism be.
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Re: One in seven Britons believe in creationism over evolution
« Reply #195 on: July 3, 2009, 11:46:21 pm »
I like Dawkins and his tirade on organised religion, i'm right behind him on that point. I'm not to impressed with the militant atheism part I mean I agree with his point over the idea that organised religion by their very doctrines are extremist and separatist but by that same token so would militant atheism be.

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Re: One in seven Britons believe in creationism over evolution
« Reply #196 on: July 4, 2009, 12:13:52 am »

Concensus can be reached but nothing can ever be demonstrably proved as an absolute fact.

Quick, click Apply to that sentence, answer and theory and it leaves nothing else to argue, fight or go to war about.
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Re: One in seven Britons believe in creationism over evolution
« Reply #197 on: July 4, 2009, 05:50:51 am »
Why is that the 'discovery' of genetics proof that God doesn't exist? I thought it only showed that DNA exists?  ??? Otherwise, genetics didn't exist pre-Watson & Crick?

Besides, why do we have to arrange millions of genes in the one exact way to get David Moyes for example?
« Last Edit: July 4, 2009, 05:53:00 am by Ken-Obi »
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Re: One in seven Britons believe in creationism over evolution
« Reply #198 on: July 4, 2009, 06:46:44 am »
Opinion v Opinion

As everyone seems agreed that evolution is unprovable, then offering proof is a pointless excercise. Paleontology is largely guesswork and assumption. Concensus can be reached but nothing can ever be demonstrably proved as an absolute fact.


Ahh the old "absolute certainty" logical fallacy...rather silly.

Who here said that evolution wasn't provable? Besides copious evidence in nature, there is plenty of evidence in laboratories all across the world. Bacteria make a wonderful testing ground as their DNA can be very complex and multiple generations can be produced rapidly. The latest and greatest experiment involved more than 40,000 generations; the biggest change was their ability to metabolize citrate, a remarkable evolution from their starting point. It took 20 years for Lenski to do it, but it's one of the best and cleanest experiments to date.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn14094-bacteria-make-major-evolutionary-shift-in-the-lab.html
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Re: One in seven Britons believe in creationism over evolution
« Reply #199 on: July 4, 2009, 06:52:02 am »
I like Dawkins and his tirade on organised religion, i'm right behind him on that point. I'm not to impressed with the militant atheism part I mean I agree with his point over the idea that organised religion by their very doctrines are extremist and separatist but by that same token so would militant atheism be.

I think "militant" anything would be extremist and separatist, no? Never saw Dawkins that way. In fact, here is the description of the summer camp he is sponsoring.

Quote
The purpose of Camp Quest is to provide children of freethinking parents a residential summer camp dedicated to improving the human condition through rational inquiry, critical and creative thinking, scientific method, self-respect, ethics, competency, democracy, free speech, and the separation of religion and government guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States.

Either way, viva la revolution.
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