Author Topic: United in Loss  (Read 10086 times)

Offline PhilScraton

  • Love and affection.....on the buses :) aka Fill Scratton.
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Main Stander
  • ***
  • Posts: 242
United in Loss
« on: September 22, 2012, 03:22:29 pm »
Given the appalling response of a relatively few United fans to the publication of the Report of the Hillsborough Independent Panel I'm returning to a post I made on the 50th Anniversary of the 1958 Munich Disaster. It shows that institutional responses in the aftermath of the tragedy failed to deliver justice to the families of those who died, masked the truth and wrongly attributed responsibility thus avoiding liability. The post was published also on United sites and I hope that it has made some  think again before exchanging abuse that sullies the memories of the dead and exacerbates the suffering of the bereaved and survivors. Death wears no badge.

Munich
6 February 1958
[/color]

The remarkable sequence of events that led to the crash-landing of a highly sophisticated British Airways’ Boeing 777 at London Heathrow on 17 January 2008 was greeted with astonishment by aviation specialists. Some two miles out from its destination, 500 feet above the ground, Flight BA038 lost the power necessary to land normally. It happened without warning and the alarm system also failed. The pilot at the controls manually glided the plane down, dipping its nose to maximise length and lifting at the last minute to hurdle the 3 metre perimeter fence. All energy lost to the final manoeuvre the plane literally belly-flopped from 10 feet onto grass, severing the undercarriage and ploughing a 400 foot furrow to the edge of the runway. It was a highly skilful sequence of flying demanding calm concentration. The two pilots and 14 crew undoubtedly saved the lives of the 136 passengers. In the immediate aftermath ‘experts’ theorised the most likely cause to be a freak, localised weather glitch or pilot error. Unanimously they agreed that a system failure within the plane was highly unlikely. They were wrong.

Over the last decade we have become so accustomed to flying, reassured by statistics proclaiming its impressive safety record, well ahead of road or rail travel. Planes are technologically so advanced, runways are kept in excellent condition, pilots are highly trained and the aviation revolution has opened access beyond all expectations. While the cost to the environment and to communities is hotly debated the advances in safety are uncontested. Fifty years ago, however, things were massively different with much of the technology experimental, knowledge limited and conditions arbitrary. Few people flew. As a young child I remember waving off my sister from Speke Airport, now a Marriott Hotel, as she left for Lourdes. She was the only person in our extended family to have boarded a plane. Most of the men had been to sea, docking in ports throughout the world, but none had flown. I have flown more air miles in the last 8 months than in the first 35 years of my life. Living in Belfast I fly far more than I use any other form of transport. Flying has become habitual and within advanced industrial societies it embraces all classes.

As a young child football was my passion and Billy Liddell my hero. We were in the Second Division and not doing so well. Most of my mates were Blues although those kids whose families were less committed supported Wolves or Spurs or whoever else was winning. When Dad took me he’d buy a seat in the main stand and lift me over the turnstile. I’d sit on his knee for the game. The Kop was unbelievable to watch from the stand and the Boys’ Pen up in the top right corner looked frightening but exciting. One day both would be my graduation although I’d sometimes slip into The Paddock, close to the halfway line. If Billy and Tommy Younger were special, I looked to Duncan Edwards as an inspiration. If he could play for England so young, so could I! We didn’t have a telly but I read the reports and out the back I imagined I had all the moves. How I wished he’d played for us.

It was a cold evening in February 1958 when the radio broke the news that a plane carrying Manchester United’s team had crashed at Munich airport. The manager, the likeable Matt Busby, and his renowned ‘Busby Babes’, were among the dead and injured. It was devastating news especially as playing in Europe was a recent development. We were stunned and I remember going to bed that night, looking at the pictures of the team in my Football Diary and praying that the great Duncan would be alright. Soon we knew. Seven players, three United staff, seven journalists and three others had died. Duncan Edwards and Matt Busby were critically ill. Among the journalists the legendary Frank Swift, former Manchester City goalie, had died. I’d heard stories about his incredible agility and massive hand span. Duncan passed away 15 days later and a co-pilot also died in hospital. Nine players, including the young Bobby Charlton, survived as did the Captain James Thain and eleven others. While I was oblivious to what was happening in Manchester – despite it being only the other end of the East Lancs I’d never been there – I recall being deeply upset for a long time afterwards.

The European Cup had been introduced only three years earlier and United were the first English team involved in the 1956-7 season. They made it to the semis and lost to the brilliant Real Madrid who went on to win the trophy. In the 1957-8 season, having won the First Division, the Busby Babes were favourites to win in Europe. They beat Dukla Prague, the Czech champions, 3-1 on aggregate and in the quarter finals returned to the Balkans to play Yugoslavia’s Crvena Zvezda, known to us as Red Star Belgrade. On 14 January they beat Red Star 2-1 at Old Trafford. The midwinter return was in Belgrade on 5 February. They chartered a British European Airways’ 47 seater plane for the players, staff and journalists and flew via Munich for refuelling. Both pilots were experienced full captains and knew each other well. They landed the plane in Belgrade in very demanding weather conditions. So serious was the situation that airport control was unaware of their arrival until the plane appeared out of the gloom at the arrival building. The match was played and despite being 3-0 up at half-time United were held to a 3-3 draw, winning the tie 5-4 on aggregate. Several people joined the return flight to Manchester bringing the passenger list to 38.

Landing at Munich the runway was laden with slush. It continued to snow. Before leaving for Manchester the crew checked the wings to ensure no ice had formed and the pilots agreed de-icing was unnecessary. As Captain Thain had flown the outbound flight his friend Captain Rayment was at the controls so they had changed seats. As the plane accelerated down the runway the pilots realised there were problems with the engines and the pressure gauges on the instrument panel. They abandoned take-off and braked heavily, skidding to a halt through the slush. Apparently the cause was ‘boost-surging’ within the engines, a problem previously experienced with this type of airplane. Clearance was given for a second attempt to take off but once again, as the plane picked up speed down, the pilots aborted. This time the plane returned to the parking bay for checks. Photographs show clearly that there had been a fresh fall of snow on the tarmac adding to the existing slush. The passengers disembarked and the pilots and the station engineer decided against retuning the engines. A third take-off attempt would be made. The wings were observed as ice free but the runway was holding more snow and slush. A quick inspection of the runway by airport staff gave the go-ahead despite there being an uneven distribution of slush.

Reluctantly the team and other passengers returned to the aircraft. To overcome the problem with the engines the pilot opened the throttles more slowly as the plane went down the runway. It picked up speed towards take off and the pilots successfully dealt with some engine surging but the plane lost speed when it reached the undisturbed slush. Running out of tarmac it ploughed across snow-laden grass, smashed the perimeter fence and hit a house, a tree and a garage. The plane caught fire in small pockets but the main fuel tank remained secure. What followed were great moments of heroism as uninjured staff and players climbed back into the plane to rescue those trapped and injured, including Matt Busby. Already 20 people were dead. Once the rescue services arrived the fires were doused and Captain Rayment was cut free. He died later.

The Geman accident investigators arrived that evening. Examining the wreck without proper lighting they determined the wings were iced up beneath the subsequent fall of snow. That was their early determination as the sole cause of the disaster. BEA sent an investigation team to Munich. The team found no problems with the engines. All indications, including the opinion of the station engineer pointed to the cause of deceleration as slush on the runway. This was also Captain Thain’s opinion. Yet the West German Traffic and Transport Ministry announced that ‘the aircraft did not leave the ground’ probably ‘as the result of ice on the wings’. Captain Thain was criticised for not providing a satisfactory explanation as to why he did not ‘discontinue the final attempt to take off’. This determination laid the blame entirely at the door of the pilots. Alternatively, any finding of accumulation of snow and slush on the runway and inadequate inspection would place responsibility on the authorities.

In April 1958 a full German Inquiry was held behind closed doors. Witnesses were selected by the German senior investigator and, remarkably, the airport controllers were not called to give evidence. After much controversy and contradiction by ‘experts’ over ice on the wings it became clear that the Inquiry judge favoured icing as the principal cause of the disaster. ‘Other circumstances’ might have contributed but it was too late to determine their relevance.  A year and a month after the disaster the Inquiry report was released. Ice on the wings was the ‘decisive cause’ and the pilots, Rayment (dead) and Thain (alive), were held responsible. The BEA Safety Committee refuted the report’s conclusions although it accepted that icing on the wings might have contributed. Slush on the runway was a significant factor, Captain Thain was criticised for not occupying the seat in the cockpit appropriate for the overall captain of the aircraft. Thain, his career in ruins and under suspension, sought to clear his name. Yet a further hearing in 1960 criticised his failure to ensure that the wings were clear of ice and his employers sacked him, adding that he had breached regulations by being in the wrong seat. United’s negligence case against BEA was settled out of court.

Further investigative trials were held and expert opinion was sought as scientific knowledge moved on. In November 1965 a second inquiry was convened in Germany to consider the new evidence ands opinions. Some consideration of slush on the runway was accepted but ice on the wings ‘was still to be regarded as the essential cause …’ The following April the British Ministry of Aviation retorted that the ‘strong likelihood’ was ‘there was no significant icing during take off’ and ‘the principal cause of the crash was the effect of slush on the runway’. A decade after the disaster a British inquiry was convened. A key witness, previously not called - an aeronautical engineer first on the scene, stated categorically that the wings were not iced. Not only had the German authorities failed to call him to their inquiries but his written statement had been altered to omit a crucial element of his testimony. Photographic evidence, it seemed, had also been altered. In 1969 the British inquiry report concluded that slush had impeded the nose wheel of the aircraft and the subsequent drag on all wheels was the ‘prime cause’. Once deceleration had happened there was insufficient runway to pick up speed and ‘blame for the accident is NOT to be imputed to Captain Thain’. The German authorities rejected the findings. Captain Thain died of a heart attack at the young age of 54.

Mike Kemble, from whose research much of the above summary is derived, states that ‘there is no doubt … that a cover up was engineered by the West German authorities, possibly even as high as the Federal Government in Bonn. There was never going to be any doubt about the outcome from the first inspection of the crash site to the publication of the report’. He raises 10 important unanswered questions regarding the disaster and the aftermath and his detailed research has drawn on many other sources including Captain Rayment’s son, Steve. Mike Kemble’s excellent work, including photographic evidence and excerpts from the Captain’s log can be found at:
www.mikekemble.com/manutd/munich

Reading Mike’s work and a range of other material for this overview has answered many of the questions and concerns I remember thinking about in the late 1960s. I have always been uneasy that Munich was considered an ‘accident’ due mainly to pilot error. My analyses of disasters over the last 20 years have shown a clear and unambiguous reluctance of authorities to accept responsibility for their culpable acts or omissions, for their institutionalised negligent custom and practice. It suits those in power, whether public bodies or private corporations, to lay blame with individuals at the coal face rather than look to their institutionalised failings. What is clear from the above is the depth of injustice endured by the bereaved and survivors of Munich, not least Captains Thain and Rayment and their families who fought for so long to clear their names. The parallels with Hillsborough are clear, right down to the failure to call witnesses and the review and alteration of statements.

It is my view, and I hope it is shared by all who read this, that our commitment to Justice for the 96 should bring compassion for all who died and suffered in Munich 1958; that our common purpose should unite us; and that life and justice is all and football is our shared passion. But that passion should never spill over into hatred, into the vilification of the dead or into exacerbating the suffering of the bereaved and survivors. As I write this my tears are in sadness for those lost and injured and for those whose lives have been cut short by their pain. They are in anger towards those from both cities who have dared taunt the memory of the dead and desecrate the experiences of the bereaved and survivors.

Justice for Munich; Justice for Hillsborough; and remembering those who died:

Players

Geoff Bent
Roger Byrne (Capt)
Eddie Coleman
Duncan Edwards
Mark Jones
David Pegg
Tommy Taylor
Liam Whelan

Non Players

Tom Cable (Club Steward)
Walter Crickmer (Club Secretary)
Tom Curry (Club Trainer)
Alf Clarke (Manchester Evening Chronicle)
Don Davies (Manchester Guardian)
George Follows (Daily Herald)
Tom Jackson (Manchester Evening News)
Archie Ledbrooke (Daily Mirror)
Bela Miklos (Travel Agent)
Capt Ken Rayment (Pilot)
Henry Rose (Daily Express)
Willie Satinoff (Fan)
Eric Thompson (Daily Mail)
Frank Swift( News of the World)
Bert Whalley (Club Coach)

© Phil Scraton 2008

Professor Phil Scraton is Professor of Criminology at the Institute of Criminology and Criminal Justice, School of Law, Queen's University, Belfast. He is the author of two acclaimed works on the Hillsborough Disaster: "No Last Rights: The Denial of Justice and the Promotion of Myth in the Aftermath of the Hillsborough Disaster" and "Hillsborough: The Truth". He was a member of the Hillsborough Independent Panel, 2010-2012, with primary responsibility for the research and analysis of the disclosed documents.
'Freedom is always and exclusively freedom for those who think differently' Rosa Luxemburg

royhendo

  • Guest
Re: United in Loss
« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2012, 03:27:01 pm »
Thank you Phil, and thanks for everything you've done.

Offline KK Legend

  • Anny Roader
  • ****
  • Posts: 434
Re: United in Loss
« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2012, 03:31:13 pm »

Offline Solomon Grundy

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 45,474
  • LFC - Living rent-free in the heads of our rivals
Re: United in Loss
« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2012, 03:34:10 pm »

Offline Barney_Rubble

  • #
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 31,841
Re: United in Loss
« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2012, 03:49:10 pm »
Chanting about Munich is as disrespectful to those who died at Hillsborough as it is about those who died at Munich.

87:13

Offline trenchtownrasta

  • fairy anne
  • Kopite
  • *****
  • Posts: 899
  • you may say I'm a dreamer,but I'm not the only one
Re: United in Loss
« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2012, 04:32:23 pm »
RIP
YNWA
'Say what you like about deaf people'.

Offline No666

  • Married to Macca.
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 16,767
Re: United in Loss
« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2012, 04:33:52 pm »

Offline Twelfth Man

  • Rhianna fan. my arse! Someone fill me in. Any takers? :) We are the fabulous CFC...
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 19,012
Re: United in Loss
« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2012, 04:39:59 pm »
Cheers Phil, had no idea the Munich tragedy had a similar cover-up.
The courts, the rich, the powerful or those in authority never lie. It has been dealt with 'by the courts' nothing to see here run along.

Offline rafathegaffa83

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 42,111
  • Dutch Class
Re: United in Loss
« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2012, 04:41:14 pm »
Fantastic stuff. Anyone who chants things about Munich, Heysel, Hillsborough etc should be immediately banned for life

Offline shelovesyou

  • andyouknow youshouldbe glad OOOOOOH!!!
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 17,251
  • Yes
Re: United in Loss
« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2012, 04:45:52 pm »
Left at the Anfield memorial.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/A3ZKIBfCYAARBO6.jpg


Pure class. And an interesting, albeit tragic read from Phil Scraton.
the easiest way for me to grow as a person is to surround myself with people smarter than I am

Offline lfcmaster

  • of pith
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,570
  • We all live in a Red and White Kop
Re: United in Loss
« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2012, 05:28:40 pm »
Hi phil

thanks for all your good work

Offline tomred

  • yraelo
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,837
Re: United in Loss
« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2012, 05:31:25 pm »
Just want to echo what others have said re Phil's work and re that excellent tribute from the silent majority at MUFC.

Offline Ginamos

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,311
Re: United in Loss
« Reply #12 on: September 22, 2012, 05:44:53 pm »
Remember reading that post from 2008, it really informed me about the Munich Disaster. Thanks Phil, for the truth and education.

It's here.
http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=206715.msg3854817#msg3854817

Offline rednile

  • Last one out
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 7,803
  • 18 LT , 5 EC, 7 FAC, 8 LC, 3 UEFA,
Re: United in Loss
« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2012, 05:52:06 pm »
Fantastic stuff. Anyone who chants things about Munich, Heysel, Hillsborough etc should be immediately banned for life

I would totally go along with that .

I've never really read in detail what happened in Munich so thanks Phil . RIP
Spent sometimes in stormy weather                               

96

Online oojason

  • The Official RAWK Audio Visual God. Founder Member of the Ricky Gervais' 'David Brad Fan Club'.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 23,898
  • The Awkward Squad
Re: United in Loss
« Reply #14 on: September 22, 2012, 06:21:14 pm »
Remember reading that post from 2008, it really informed me about the Munich Disaster. Thanks Phil, for the truth and education.

It's here.
http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=206715.msg3854817#msg3854817

Eerily familiar reluctance to search for and accept the truth in both tragic events - cheers Phil. 
.
Some 'Useful Info' for following the football + TV, Streams, Highlights & Replays etc - www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=345769

A mini-index of RAWK's 'Liverpool Audio / Video Thread' content over the years; & more - www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=345769.msg17787576#msg17787576

Offline redtel

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,298
  • Sir Roger-Scored first goal ever on MOTD.
Re: United in Loss
« Reply #15 on: September 22, 2012, 07:15:20 pm »
Powerful post Phil and I hope it's message is spread around our fan base and our opponents down the East Lancs Rd.

I too remember the 1958 crash and was gutted at the loss of so many great young players and many notable journalists as well. It would never have crossed our minds back then to taunt them about any disaster.
We are definitely believers and we’ve won the fucking lot!

Offline cowtownred

  • We're only making plans for Nigel, We only want what's best for him, We're only making plans for Nigel, Nigel just needs a helping hand
  • RAWK Remembers
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 12,379
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: United in Loss
« Reply #16 on: September 22, 2012, 08:05:08 pm »
Excellent research as ever Professor.

Hope this gets circulated to the Manchester United supporters, and that its received well.

Offline evanz89

  • Anny Roader
  • ****
  • Posts: 489
  • JFT96
Re: United in Loss
« Reply #17 on: September 22, 2012, 08:35:35 pm »

Offline Billy1561

  • The egg-beating, Turbo Wrist-Action King. Conqueror of Mow cop otherwise known as The Cow Mopper! Too old for Google...too overloaded to byte.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 8,603
  • Scouse by birth. Red by choice.
Re: United in Loss
« Reply #18 on: September 22, 2012, 09:02:46 pm »
My ignorance over Munich is embarrasing. Thanks for correcting that Phil. And i agree with Barney, any insults of over Munich insult our dead at Hillsborough.
"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life."

Offline SpartanTree. No deccies or lights.

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,304
  • This is ANFIELD !!!
Re: United in Loss
« Reply #19 on: September 22, 2012, 09:12:29 pm »
Remember reading that post from 2008, it really informed me about the Munich Disaster. Thanks Phil, for the truth and education.

It's here.
http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=206715.msg3854817#msg3854817

Remember reading that too. 
A must read for all fans as far as I'm concerned. 

'Siempre es posible' - my eyes have seen the glory...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=9OHC7lIfvk4

Physical death I do not fear, death of conscience is a sure death.

Offline lorenzo23

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,612
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: United in Loss
« Reply #20 on: September 22, 2012, 09:17:58 pm »
Thanks for that.
Liverpool manager Rafael Benítez admitted after the match that the manner of his side's victory had stunned him and he stated: "My problem is that I don't have words to express the things that I feel at this moment"

Offline SportBilly

  • Of course America had been discovered by scousers before Columbus, but we always kept it hushed up.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,010
  • I intend to live forever. Or die trying.
Re: United in Loss
« Reply #21 on: September 22, 2012, 09:43:55 pm »
Fantastic, eye-opening post. Thanks for it and for everything you've done.
When love and skill work together, expect a masterpiece.   (John Ruskin - English critic, essayist, & reformer (1819 - 1900) )

Offline A Day 2 Remember

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,385
  • At The End Of The Storm - Are we there yet??
Re: United in Loss
« Reply #22 on: September 22, 2012, 09:48:03 pm »
RIP
5th times a charm

I want to read about a Welshman reclaiming our Kop and over engineering songs we have nicked. Priorities guys

Offline Resurrected

  • No longer active on the forum.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,220
Re: United in Loss
« Reply #23 on: September 22, 2012, 09:49:48 pm »
When i saw the title of this thread, 'United in Loss', my first thought was, 'I'm not surprised, they're playing us tomorrow'

royhendo

  • Guest
Re: United in Loss
« Reply #24 on: September 23, 2012, 06:48:42 am »
Bump - get it read.

Offline Andy @ Allerton!

  • Missing an asterisk - no, wait sorry, that's his rusty starfish..... RAWK Apple fanboy. Hedley Lamarr's bestest mate. Has done nothing incredible ever.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 73,672
  • Asterisks baby!
Re: United in Loss
« Reply #25 on: September 23, 2012, 08:32:50 am »
Bump. Too many people forget that football isn't about clubs or players. It's about people. People like you and me. Brothers, sisters, dads, mums, uncles, aunties, nephews, nieces, children and grandparents. It's a world that we all share and one that demands respect and one that should have humour, passion and decency.

Quote from: tubby on Today at 12:45:53 pm

They both went in high, that's factually correct, both tried to play the ball at height.  Doku with his foot, Mac Allister with his chest.

Offline WOOLTONIAN

  • The Garston Gasworks XI.....aka "Beryl".....
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,784
  • Brodrick ; Vice Admiral of the Reds
Re: United in Loss
« Reply #26 on: September 23, 2012, 08:34:34 am »
I spent many years trying to raise awareness about Munich, after my dad spent a good hour talking to me about Duncan Edwards and Matt Busby.
He told me Duncan was one of the finest players he'd ever seen and if not for the accident he most likely would have been the England Captain in 1966. That hit home.
But what really made me sit and listen was when he told me for the first time that MATT BUSBY was an Ex-Liverpool Footballer.
Have you heard those sick chants about Munich he said
I went red
Do you think half of them know that they are singing about the near death of an ex-red Captain
I went deeper red
No I dont suppose you did
Living descendant of Sir Thomas Brodrick, Vice Admiral of the Red in the 18th Century

Offline Bincey

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,151
  • Is that Joe Pasquale? In the garden?
Re: United in Loss
« Reply #27 on: September 23, 2012, 09:05:19 am »
Tragic. So, so tragic. Excellent post.

Offline The Fletcher Memorial

  • Feels mildly violat.................. ed
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 7,941
  • Reality is hard to find
Re: United in Loss
« Reply #28 on: September 23, 2012, 09:28:52 am »
Thanks for that Phil
The sky does not know of east or of west;
it is in the minds of men where such distinctions are made, and then they believe them to be true.

Offline planet-terror

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 13,249
Re: United in Loss
« Reply #29 on: September 23, 2012, 10:07:16 am »
Thanks for that a must read
bollocks

Offline aggerdid

  • Reads the subtitles on "Queer as Folk" from right to left
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,345
Re: United in Loss
« Reply #30 on: September 23, 2012, 10:11:31 am »
To be honest i've never understood singing about deaths at a match. Think its just something thick people do because they can't express themselves in the form of battering someone because theres cctv and police everywhere outside. Well anyway i hope there isn't any today. As for evra getting booed, he better bring earplugs
We must embrace pain and burn it as fuel for our journey - Kenji Miyazawa

Online rob1966

  • YORKIE bar-munching, hedgehog-squashing (well-)articulated road-hog-litter-bug. Sleeping With The Enemy. Has felt the wind and shed his anger..... did you know I drive a Jag? Cucking funt!
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 46,807
Re: United in Loss
« Reply #31 on: September 23, 2012, 10:19:34 am »
Bump. Too many people forget that football isn't about clubs or players. It's about people. People like you and me. Brothers, sisters, dads, mums, uncles, aunties, nephews, nieces, children and grandparents. It's a world that we all share and one that demands respect and one that should have humour, passion and decency.



Absolutely sopt on. People need to remember its just a game. Nothing more, just a game. My wife is a Manc, used to go home and away and around Europe. Her supporting Utd didn't stop me falling in love with her and having kids. Today we're having a little party for my sons 2nd birthday and thats more important to me than the result.
Jurgen, you made us laugh, you made us cry, you made Liverpool a bastion of invincibilty, now leave us on a high - YNWA

Offline plasterered

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,654
  • We all Live in a....
Re: United in Loss
« Reply #32 on: September 23, 2012, 10:24:29 am »
Hats off Phil

Offline Pendzo

  • Kopite
  • *****
  • Posts: 690
Re: United in Loss
« Reply #33 on: September 23, 2012, 10:25:32 am »
Great post and a definite must read. We say we must educate others but first we must educate ourselves.

Online Yorkykopite

  • Misses Danny Boy with a passion. Phil's Official Biographer, dontcherknow...it's all true. Honestly.
  • RAWK Writer
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 34,483
  • The first five yards........
Re: United in Loss
« Reply #34 on: September 23, 2012, 11:21:54 am »
Nice stuff Phil.

The important thing here is to try and recall the emotion you felt when you were first told, probably as a football-mad child, about the Munich air disaster. You were horrified and you probably couldn't believe the unfairness of the idea of young football gods cut down in their prime. If we're truly human that's what we should still feel, regardless of how jaded and frustrated we are about other aspects of the game. 

Time to unite over this and Hillsborough and to isolate and scorn those who won't.
"If you want the world to love you don't discuss Middle Eastern politics" Saul Bellow.