Topic: Round Table LFC 0-1 Southampton.

[Corkboy]

I didn't see the whole game so I am reluctant to comment but I do not follow all the Skrtel hating. Yes, he failed to control the play leading up to the goal, but that goal came from a corner. Corners happen in football, you have to defend them, Agger didn't. The blame for the goal rests squarely with him.

[penga]

Haven't seen the game so here goes..

Culprit No.1: Rodgers, defence all wrong, left & right back crucial positions when building attacks and in support.Playing centre backs in both full backs..a no-no.

Culprit No.2: Rodgers didn't fire them up, not enough effort to make up for low quality V swansea, should have fired them up for this, deadpan from the off. A good run needs to be kept at it not just drift out there.

Culprit No.3: Rodgers, play Alberto in place of Hendo, better balance in midfield. Holder Lucas, playmaker Gerrard, runner Hendo...well you need more of a creative type as the 3rd midfielder. You need a combination of Hendo's energy with a touch of creativity. Willian would have fitted the bill but was well over priced at £30m. Hendo for me is mid-table, not on his own there.

When I actually see the game I will be more constructive. Leave it there.

Alberto should be given a go but I'd keep Hendo as RB due to our defensive crisis, he is a reasonable defender.

[freddwarf]

Alberto should be given a go but I'd keep Hendo as RB due to our defensive crisis, he is a reasonable defender.

Well played there, deep as cover v Swansea and was skinned a few times in the last 20 mins.

Wisdom should not have been dropped and didn't play badly v Swans before being subbed. He's the cover. with Kelly on the sick. A few bad minutes should not have kept him out.

[Suareznumber7]

I didn't see the whole game so I am reluctant to comment but I do not follow all the Skrtel hating. Yes, he failed to control the play leading up to the goal, but that goal came from a corner. Corners happen in football, you have to defend them, Agger didn't. The blame for the goal rests squarely with him.

It was an unnecessary give away that led to the corner.  If Skrtel keeps the ball in play then the corner never happens.  Obvious....yes, but that is why there is Skrtel hate in here.   

[freddwarf]

It was an unnecessary give away that led to the corner.  If Skrtel keeps the ball in play then the corner never happens.  Obvious....yes, but that is why there is Skrtel hate in here.   

Skrtel was to deep in the left back cover position when the corner came in. Should be in the thick of it. Agga can be knocked off or be muscelled out of it.

Team played badly from start to finish and got what they deserved...NOWT !

[Twelfth Man]

Aspas is beginning to annoy as well. I know he's cheap(ish) and that expectations therefore shouldn't be too unrealistic. I know he's trying too. But it's not happening for him at all, and nor does it look likely to. There's neither pace nor penetration there - nor any obvious 'sniffer' quality in the box. Bar the odd nice little flick there's really nothing in his game that excites the fan or makes you think 'Ah Aspas has got it...COME ON!' When he's played in the same team as the equally ordinary Jordan Hendeson Liverpool suddenly look to have a very blunt attack. Henderson perpetually wastes time and opportunities by miscontrolling the ball. And he just hates receiving the thing when he's closely marked. He's the sort of player I'd like to see coming on as a sub when we're two or three up and our opponents are leaving wide-open spaces at the back in search of a goal. Give him a packed pitch and an organised defence and he's....not as good as we need him to be. Neither Hendo nor Aspas would hold a regular spot, I think, in any other Premier League team. Joe Allen can't come back quick enough for me. Meanwhile is Alberto a better alternative than Henderson? We just haven't seen enough of him to make a case I suppose. I know this though. Suso is. I wonder if we'll regret sending him on loan - especially now Coutinho is out.

Henderson is the only one who can provide energy in central midfield for the whole 90 minutes. I don't think he has been as bad as you suggest, I see a lot of potential in his game, and the criticism about him not liking the ball when marked, well that strikes me as a cultural trait of the type of players Britain produces, you might get the odd Scholes or Wilshere now and then, but put pressure on a midfield containing homegrown talent, we all know where that is going. So it becomes a battle between who has the most energy and fight. Henderson at least provides a bit of that. Going forward, he creates very little, but he does get on the end of things which is a quality our midfield has lacked for years.

I have to agree about Aspas, however we need persevere for a bit longer though before writing him off. Alberto looks a more intelligent player, and could be the link man between midfield and attack, however, he is another player, that when he has played in the first team has struggled with the speed and physicality of the league. And we have a lot of players that fit that mould, decent technically, pretty on the eye, but easily bamboozled by bigger stronger more aggressive players, that these shores churn out. Would love to get Suso back, but given how well he is doing in Spain, I think it's better for us and his development long-term that he stays there. We are just going to have grind out results while Phil is out.

The old Lucas, pre-injury, could perhaps cover for Stevie, but post-injury he's not been able to. We could possibly get more out of Lucas if he was partnered alongside Allen or even Hendo, but then where would the creativity come from, in that Gerrard and Coutinho are the only players that can provide that from midfield. Push Gerrard further forward, and he'll get robbed of the ball, he needs to drop back, because that is the space the opposition are happy for him to collect the ball in.

Wing-backs who press high up the pitch, and the get-out ball to Coutinho, was sorely missed, but even then, if a team is aggressive enough in their pressing, our midfield is easily put on the back foot. Happened last season, not much has changed, apart from getting in a top shot-stopper. Our top XI on form can cover for the midfield weakness, but once we lose players in key positions, that frailty is pounced upon. Apart from Allen coming in for Hendo, I don't see Rodgers changing the midfield setup this season, we just have to hope Phil gets back quickly and that Johnson and Enrique/Kelly don't get injured.

[Prof]

For the goal there is no doubt Skrtel makes the brain cock up but the amount of blame he is getting is ridiculous. Preceding the goal, Hendo plays the obvious but shit pass that puts Toure under pressure from 3 players so he goes back to Skrtel who is under pressure from 1 player and only option is to hack it away but doesn't want to do this otherwise he will be given shit for hoofing (route back to Mignolet is covered from the press, no other options to pass to) and so while he looks back towards the other side and sees nothing on he hesitates for a moment and strangely ends up letting the ball go out. Both of those players that ended up playing hospital balls could have turned their man with a bit of nous (Hendo play to Sterling or Toure turn towards touchline and play to Hendo) and made a different pass but they passed the responsibility. You can see is 6:23 in this video, there are options for those 2 but what is Skrtel to do?

<a href="http://vimeo.com/moogaloop.swf?clip_id=75116589" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://vimeo.com/moogaloop.swf?clip_id=75116589</a>

You are spot on here.

The biggest issue I saw was the role of Gerrard after half time.  We played a 1-2 midfield with Gerrard playing the deepest role.  When Skrtel received that pass, Gerrard should have been racing to provide the option for him, but he just ambled along like he didn't have a care in the world.  Skrtel was isolated, so the ball going into touch wasn't actually a bad outcome, although row z might have been better.

I've said countless time that Gerrard is still a special player.  On the ball he can do things no one else can.  But off the ball, he has no defensive instinct.  He is effective when pressing, but his recovery runs and support for teammates is as bad as anyone in the squad.

On another note, Henderson is my type of player.  I thought him and Sturridge were the only two looking to make things happen.  He is technically sound and generally makes good decisions, but his work rate and energy are just what we need more of.  If it was my call, he'd be starting alongside Lucas in the next match.  I'd probably play Gerrard at 10 until Coutinho comes back, but I think he needs to be benched for a bit.  Everyone needs pressure for their place in the team.

Edit:

Just to highlight what I mean.  Gerrard could be helping Toure out a bit more here:



But he's moved about 3 yards with no evidence of realising the situation Skrtel is in here:

[JTK]

We were outplayed Saturday plain & simple. Saw the whole game from the kop, wish I hadn't though.

Southampton's pressing was superb. Our game plan was all wrong, we couldn't string a pass together.

Aspas in that no.10 role, what a disaster. Got beaten to every ball it seems, and when he did have the ball he had no options and we got pressurised until we lost possession. Gerrard & Henderson had no impact on the game at all, and Moses was just jogging around again 2nd half. Sterling had a positive impact when he came on, I would start him midweek.

It just wasn't our day, we all know that we need our first choice full backs and attacking players fit as we don't have good enough back up. I agree with what others have said about the Gerrard + Lucas combo. They both have to play though, so what can Rodgers do?

However, despite all the analysis possible, I think that the conclusion is that they were better than us. We were missing important players.

Our first choice right back is injured, our 2nd choice isn't fit to start. Our first choice left back wasn't fit to start, our 2nd choice is injured. Our best player was serving the last match of his ban. Our main playmaker is out till October. Our striker who has scored all but one of our goals is clearly unfit. Two of our players were playing in their second game for us, and neither of them have been playing regularly for their last clubs.

Injuries and bans have started to have an effect on results, the good news is that Suarez is back next week and our new signings can only get better.

[redbyrdz]

I actually thought Skrtel had a good game, especially in the first half. When we were defending the Kop end, he was always quick to the ball and actually showed a bit of anticipation and aggression (same as Lucas). Can't comment on the second half, because he was at the other end of the pitch. I'd actually like to see a highlights video of him, because I really don't think he is as bad as the football intelligentsia are making out. Yes, he is from the more robust school of defenders, but maybe thats something we're lacking a bit at the moment?


As for the line-up, I really don't understand the logic behind it at all. With Countinho (and Suarez) out, we were already quite limited in our attacking creativity (and our width, because Henderson played RM). So then we played two CBs as FBs, who were very unlikely to provide any width or creativity even if they did well there. Just where was our game going to come from?!?

If we had such a bad injury crisis, why didn't we play any of the young fullbacks, like Flanagan? Not to mention the obvious three at the back, with maybe Moses and Sterling as wingbacks. And as others have said, why does Sturridge play 90minutes every week while Enrique can't be started (but we couldn't get him on the pitch quick enough once Sakho had a couple of shaky moments too many)?

Then we changed our CBs three times during the match - from Agger + Skrtel to Skrtel + Sakho, to Sakho + Toure. That can't really bring stability, even though especially Sakho was a lot more comfortable in the centre. The whole thing looked pre-planned, designed to ease Sakho and Toure into the match (play them out wide so they can acclimatise themselves without fucking up too much). Why is that deemed more important than us winning the match?

Our whole game plan at the moment seems to be defensive - get narrow, hold your line, stand off them. We let the opposition have the ball, even in our own half, we never ever press (I still haven't seen any evidence that Rodgers is big on pressing), we hardly intercept, we let crosses come in and then slate the CBs for not being strong enough.

In the last 20 minutes, we run out of ideas, so it was long-ball-and-hope, no gameplan, no link up between the forwards, nobody running into the box to provide a target, so obviously Moses and Sturridge resorted to going it alone.

I think Rodgers said last season he'll get the team playing first and sort the defense this season. I just wish he'd keep an eye on the whole match too, because this is not doing us any good at all.


Somehow this is way more of a rant then intended - its Monday and I'm still pissed off. Sorry!

[Grobbelrevell]

I actually thought Skrtel had a good game...I'd actually like to see a highlights video of him, because I really don't think he is as bad as the football intelligentsia are making out.

I don't disagree with that. I think Skrtel has generally been excellent, individually. My questioning of Skrtel isn't particularly based on his individual performances, but rather the impact that he has on the overall system. He's brilliant if you're looking to play a low defensive block and he proved that against United. Carragher was similar. I'm certain if you asked either of those two how they would prefer to play, the answer would be along those lines. The problem comes in the fact that Rodgers, seemingly, wants us to play on the front foot and that starts with the defensive unit. Skrtel, for his various attributes, is far less comfortable defending towards the half way line and he's most certainly not comfortable receiving the ball under any kind of pressure and being asked to retain it. In that situation he often panics and will look to the obvious get-out that is Mignolet, rather than having the confidence to move with the ball, create an angle, and play it out himself.

So with Skrtel in the side Rodgers has two primary options. He either forces his desired system upon a player who isn't comfortable enacting it, or you adapt the system to accomodate him at the expense of the bigger picture. In my opinion we could simply go for option three and replace Skrtel with a player suited to the intended style (Toure). That may be harsh on Skrtel individually, but it makes sense in terms of the bigger picture. He's not a bad player, per se, but i'm far from convinced that he's the best fit in terms of what we're looking to do. Simple as that.

[steveeastend]

In that situation he often panics and will look to the obvious get-out that is Mignolet, rather than having the confidence to move with the ball, create an angle, and play it out himself.

The things is though that this isn´t true at all. He made more short passes compared to Toure and Gerrard, there is a stat in the "lucas/Gerrard" thread who gives prove to that.

In addition, I don´t think the game plan was wrong at all. Against a pressing team, there is no point in hitting the long ball. We should have tried to win the battle in midfield and force our passing game into them. But we couldn´t because of a lack willigness to do so of the majority of the players but Skrtel and Lucas weren´t part of that.

[Grobbelrevell]

The things is though that this isn´t true at all. He made more short passes compared to Toure and Gerrard, there is a stat in the "lucas/Gerrard" thread who gives prove to that.

I haven't seen that stat so I can't comment on it. He wasn't alone in going back to Mignolet though, i'll concede that much. The number of passes we're playing back to the 'keeper as a collective has steadily risen as the games have progressed, from Stoke (9) to Southampton, on Saturday (24). That's a worrying trend for a number of reasons.

I stand by my assessment of Skrtel though. I don't believe he's a poor player, but I do believe we have players in his position who are better suited to our intended style.

[TSC]

Focusing on individual mistakes re the goal, no matter whether fingers are pointed at Toure, Skrtel or even Gerrard, is a case of fiddling while Rome burns.

There were more obvious issues. Like just how poor we looked without Coutinho linking midfield and attack.  And the other just as worrying aspect relates to the inexcusable error of playing four centre halfs who between them were expected to cover the full back positions.  Unsurprisingly they were all over the place - evidenced in one aspect with events leading up to the goal which saw both Toure and Skrtel occupying the right back position and obviously making a dogs dinner of things.

And last but not least is the insistence on trying to play like 5-a-side team in order to move the ball from the goalkeeper into midfield.  Again and again Southampton pressed and exposed our weaknesses, and yet again and again we tried it.  That example towards the end with Mignolet playing Agger into pressure led to a one v one, which would've been a goal of comic proportions, like something you prob wouldn't see in the conference. 

[steveeastend]

I haven't seen that stat so I can't comment on it. He wasn't alone in going back to Mignolet though, i'll concede that much. The number of passes we're playing back to the 'keeper as a collective has steadily risen as the games have progressed, from the Stoke (9) to Southampton, on Saturday (24). That's a worrying trend for a number of reasons.

I stand by my assessment of Skrtel though. I don't believe he's a poor player, but I do believe we have players in his position who are better suited to our intended style.

Here you go mate. Skrtel and Lucas weren´t the problem in our failings of playing it short and simple.

[GrkStav]

I
Our whole game plan at the moment seems to be defensive - get narrow, hold your line, stand off them. We let the opposition have the ball, even in our own half, we never ever press (I still haven't seen any evidence that Rodgers is big on pressing), we hardly intercept, we let crosses come in and then slate the CBs for not being strong enough.

In the last 20 minutes, we run out of ideas, so it was long-ball-and-hope, no gameplan, no link up between the forwards, nobody running into the box to provide a target, so obviously Moses and Sturridge resorted to going it alone.

The first paragraph, especially the part about us not pressing or hunting in packs, is simply inaccurate. Sometimes we do it effectively, other times not so much. But we do it. We do it even deep in the second half. Not all the time, of course. But, if you haven't seen any evidence of it, then the problem lies in the seeing.

With regard to the second paragraph above, I think there is a game-plan but I would agree with your implicit point that it does not appear well-drilled and rehearsed.

[Grobbelrevell]

Here you go mate. Skrtel and Lucas weren´t the problem in our failings of playing it short and simple.

Thanks mate.

I'd be interested to see a breakdown of passes back to Mignolet, on top of that.

[woof]

Rodgers need to take notes from this game and NEVER to repeat it. Soton pressed our backline the entire time - this is the kind of football we play under Rodgers and yet, it's the visiting team that is doing it. When Soton noticed chinks in the armour, they went at it with greater fervour and got more hungry. We, on the other hand, shrunk back to our shells. We couldn't move the ball pass the halfway line and when we did, we just bombed in long and lost most of the 50-50 duels.

Sakho is much better at CB than a FB. Not sure why Enrique didn't start even if he has a niggling injury. Was a bad day at the office overall. The consolation is we're 10 points after 5 games and are only 1 point behind the leaders. Against Stoke, they pressed us but were unfortunate not to make us pay. I reckon we need someone like Alberto who is calm on the ball to pick up the ball from defence and move it up quickly. Or we could go for Alonso in the January transfer???

If not for Mignolet, we could have ended the match with more embarrassment.

[Cpt_Reina]

Thanks mate.

I'd be interested to see a breakdown of passes back to Mignolet, on top of that.

That's his 'out'.

He loves playing it to either his CB partner or back to the GK. With Reina there to do his job for him in terms of moving the ball forward then it was less of an issue. But with Mignolet still having to learn to use his feet more, and look as if he's learning on the job largely, then it's a problem.

Skrtel goes back the 'keeper might be seen as a successful pass in the numbers but if he's rely on Mignolet to distribute the ball because he cant do it himself, then thats the problem.

[Kelvinlfc]

Brendans fucking up Aspas in the same way Dalglish did to Hendo, playing in an uncomfortable unfamiliar position to later get slated for playing poorly, stupid decision on Saturday

[GrkStav]

I don't believe Gerrard and Lucas are the problem. I think fullbacks and Aspas were the problem. Aspas plays like a striker but we're struggling in attacking build up. We need someone to present in front of Gerrard and Lucas and Aspas just isn't doing that. This has only been compounded with the loss of Coutinho.

With how Gerrard and Lucas play we need attacking wing backs that get forward. That means Kelly, Wisdom, Toure, Sakho and Flanagan are ill suited. It's harsh but I think we ship out Skrtel, Wisdom, Kelly and Flanagan. Then lack of mobility in midfield I don't think would be an issue if we had the right fullbacks and another alternative DM instead of those players. Love Kelly and Wisdom, put clauses in so we can get them back but right now they don't have a spot and we're doing no favours leaving them on the bench or playing them in systems/positions they're not suited.

In general, and as much as I can always be accused of being willfully or inadvertently blind to Lucas' negative traits or sub-par performances because I am a 'fan-boy' of his, Lucas will follow manager's orders to a 'T' and to a fault. Therefore, unless he individually effs up consistently and on numerous occasions, I cannot accept that he is the problem in CM. When Gerrard plays as he did vs So'ton and everything else about the team on the pitch turns out as it did (i.e. "nothing came off", not a single time, apparently, did a move that could come off with a bit of luck come off, etc), Lucas is screwed, and so are we. It's no revelation that Lucas has to be told "bypass Stevie" in order to do so. If Stevie is on the pitch, Lucas will, 8 times out of 10 or more, try to find him and let HIM 'create'. In the grand scheme of things, that's the correct thing for him to do. And Lucas has the type of character that would tell him that it would be 'inappropriate' for him unilaterally to decide that the captain is having a bad day therefore 'eff him, I am taking over the creative part'.

In re Henderson, as much as I've strongly warmed up to him and defended him last week against naysayers, he's a "90% player"; he appears, to my lying eyes at least, to be "almost there but not quite" too often, both defensively and in attack. Combined with no proper fullback outlets and 'creativity' AND Gerrard having a sub-par game AND Sturridge having a sub-par game AND . . . that trait of Henderson's (at least so far) becomes that much more problematic.

[Gnurglan]

I thought that was a bit harsh too. He made the effort to press and made a chance for himself by doing so. He could have linked the play better, but the service to the forwards was dreadful all game.

What was strange about the decision to take Aspas off, was that we had no other striker to put on. So we left ourselves without option to change up front. (Subs: Jones, Kelly, Wisdom, Enrique, Ibe, Sterling and Alberto.) Things didn't make sense. It was a bad day at the office for everyone. 

[bazz]

I think we have a massive problem with Lucas and Gerrard starting together in midfield and it will need to be addressed as we are continually getting overrun there and that is either down to Lucas not providing an attacking thread whatsoever so therefore no pushing up the opposition's midfield and Gerrard seriously lacking in tracking runners and having discipline in the centre of the park allowing the opposition to press. Both together don't work for me as a partnership and we seriously messed up not getting in a new centre midfielder in the summer.

So how to deal with it?

Well, as we can't sign anyone for another few months as ideally I would sign a new midfielder then Gerrard either needs to be pushed up to become part of the forward 3 as an attacking midfielder or Lucas needs to be replaced when we play at home initially.

I'm a big fan of Lucas 1-2 years ago but that was when we played a different type of game and he had to protect the back four, but at home we played 4 defenders (centre backs) and Lucas? Why did we have to do that as we effectively limited our attacking options....at home ....against Southampton!?

[Grobbelrevell]

Skrtel goes back the 'keeper might be seen as a successful pass in the numbers but if he's rely on Mignolet to distribute the ball because he cant do it himself, then thats the problem.

And that's my issue with it. I believe it is more often than not a case of passing the buck. He's not confident enough to shift the ball and create the angle to make the pass himself, so he takes the easy option. As you say, his stats then look pretty good, but fail to take this flaw into account. It's misleading and it papers over what I believe is part of the underlying issues we're having with ball retention.

The other factor to consider is that neither Gerrard nor Lucas seem to be consistently dropping in to create an overload when we have the ball at the back, to then allow us the numerical advantage to play our way out. They're very static at times and that's where I think Allen would help.

[MazzaRed]

The warning signs were there against Swansea. Completely over-thought by Rodgers. I'm still at a loss as to what he was thinking to be totally honest and I'm a big, big fan of the fella. Even with rose-tinted specs on, I can't find any potential justification of that line-up.

Our midfield - or lack of it - is a massive, massive concern. Hopefully Allen can push his way back into the reckoning, because we need to break up the dynamic of Lucas and Gerrard which patently just does not work. They'd operate relatively well in a regressive Hodgson-style of football, sitting deep and keeping it simple, but they don't get about the pitch fast enough, move the ball quick enough or press the opposition high enough up the pitch to be effective in the system we play.

Maybe it's time to experiment Gerrard elsewhere. Right-back while Glen is out?

My son and I were labouring this fact about Gerrard and Lucas on the way home...he was saying Stevie isn't getting forward enough through the midfield. I actually though he didn't play too badly but my lad thought he was way off mark.

What I have come to realise is that we are going to have to wrap Stevie up in cotton wool. End of. It was touted about towards the end of last season and I fully agreed with it then. He simply can't play to the tempo in that attacking midfield role game after game any more. We are now suffering the consequence of him playing every game plus that ridiculous game against Notts County, and he can't keep doing it. We've been getting away with it/solving the scenario with Coutinho, but that obviously doesn't work when he is not on the pitch. There's a gaping hole up to Sturridge, which hopefully now Suarez can sit in.

We really need to look after Stevie, otherwise his wheels will come off or he'll get injured again.
Really p*ss"d off we never managed to capture Christian Eriksen back in the summer....no comment.

Oh...and the 4 centre backs? Brendan got out the wrong side of the bed...how was that EVER going to work, would love to know what his actual thinking was

Anyway...time to move on.....

 

[Fat Scouser]

Maybe when Brendan has 20 odd players that can carry out his plan, this sort of performance and result will become the occasional blip. But as it stands now, this will keep happening.

There's two pretty simple ways to beat us right now... rope a dope until we fuck up, or chase and hunt until we fuck up.

I'm not having a dig at Brendan. And I'm sure plenty of people will point out where and how wrong I am. But, for what it's worth, that's my honest opinion.

[Redallover11]

I think we have a massive problem with Lucas and Gerrard starting together in midfield and it will need to be addressed as we are continually getting overrun there and that is either down to Lucas not providing an attacking thread whatsoever so therefore no pushing up the opposition's midfield and Gerrard seriously lacking in tracking runners and having discipline in the centre of the park allowing the opposition to press. Both together don't work for me as a partnership and we seriously messed up not getting in a new centre midfielder in the summer.

So how to deal with it?

Well, as we can't sign anyone for another few months as ideally I would sign a new midfielder then Gerrard either needs to be pushed up to become part of the forward 3 as an attacking midfielder or Lucas needs to be replaced when we play at home initially.

I'm a big fan of Lucas 1-2 years ago but that was when we played a different type of game and he had to protect the back four, but at home we played 4 defenders (centre backs) and Lucas? Why did we have to do that as we effectively limited our attacking options....at home ....against Southampton!?

The problem was not Lucas on Saturday but Gerrard.

Gerrards inability to show for the ball in any meaningful way created too many problems for the split center backs that were as wide a Barcelona some times in the first twenty minutes of the game.
Lucas was coming deep to show however because of the press we needed Gerrard also and although he arrived looking at Mignolet he never demanded the ball with a physical gesture or a head over the shoulder and half turn body shape.

Also when Agger is coming out with the ball this is the time gerrard comes looking for the ball. He comes into the space receives the ball and sprays a ball wide, eg Moses on the left. Moses has a go at the full back but by the time he has reached the box the opposition has collapsed around him and is dispossessed by the time Gerrard offers support. What happens then is he is bypassed by fast breaks out of defense and is left watching play pass him by. So where is the other support? Moses is going at his defender Aspas and Sturridge are making runs into the box and the full back Sakho has been left behind by the 40 yard ball into Moses.

When Agger is coming out with the ball gerrard should be urging Agger to either play the ball to Moses so he can go as the ball is being played to be there for support as ball arrives or let Agger carry the ball and make a central mid make a decision to come and pressure Agger leaving Gerrard to create an angle to receive when he goes past Gerrard to press Agger.

Gerrards also in a two must be able to track runners and he is painfully shy at doing this after getting forward.

For me this is the reason why Stats don't tell a good story.
You can see forward passes players makes  but the stat doesn't say it was also the right decision. It can say how many tackles were won but was that because of a poor touch and now it's a desperate attempt to win back the ball. Stats need to be seen in context with the way the team sets up and how the game is played.

[Redallover11]

I don't believe Gerrard and Lucas are the problem. I think fullbacks and Aspas were the problem. Aspas plays like a striker but we're struggling in attacking build up. We need someone to present in front of Gerrard and Lucas and Aspas just isn't doing that. This has only been compounded with the loss of Coutinho.

With how Gerrard and Lucas play we need attacking wing backs that get forward. That means Kelly, Wisdom, Toure, Sakho and Flanagan are ill suited. It's harsh but I think we ship out Skrtel, Wisdom, Kelly and Flanagan. Then lack of mobility in midfield I don't think would be an issue if we had the right fullbacks and another alternative DM instead of those players. Love Kelly and Wisdom, put clauses in so we can get them back but right now they don't have a spot and we're doing no favours leaving them on the bench or playing them in systems/positions they're not suited.

I would agree Aspas' movement is not good right now and at 26 needs to be much better however when you are looking for gerrard to link with and he is taking the ball of the center backs in order to look long continuously we are not going to have much in terms of slick passing in the middle. That is why Suarez when he comes back will start looking like a mad man for the ball coming in from the right if he plays there or dropping in with much more regularity from the AM position turning and going at the back four from there with support left right and in front of him. and will be fed more by Gerrard. that is why he is world class.
But it still won't fix the problem when the Opposition have the ball.

[Durlmints]

I don't believe Gerrard and Lucas are the problem. I think fullbacks and Aspas were the problem. Aspas plays like a striker but we're struggling in attacking build up. We need someone to present in front of Gerrard and Lucas and Aspas just isn't doing that. This has only been compounded with the loss of Coutinho.

With how Gerrard and Lucas play we need attacking wing backs that get forward. That means Kelly, Wisdom, Toure, Sakho and Flanagan are ill suited. It's harsh but I think we ship out Skrtel, Wisdom, Kelly and Flanagan. Then lack of mobility in midfield I don't think would be an issue if we had the right fullbacks and another alternative DM instead of those players. Love Kelly and Wisdom, put clauses in so we can get them back but right now they don't have a spot and we're doing no favours leaving them on the bench or playing them in systems/positions they're not suited.

I don't rate him that much either mate but he wasn't responsible for that at all.

He came off at half time, and we were even worse in the second half.

[KirkVanHouten]

Playing Sakho and Toure at full back is for me, effectively the same as Rodgers playing Glen Johnson as a right winger.

I just can't believe how poor our players are at dealing with a side who presses high and try to keep the ball. Something that we are supposed to do. We have been unable to maintain possession with any consistency this season, I honestly think Joe Allen would have been more use to us in this game than Gerrard who for some reason now plays every minute of every game.

[KirkVanHouten]

Also largely irrelevant when discussing how we played but I just remembered how fucking awful that ref was.

[fowlermagic]

And that's my issue with it. I believe it is more often than not a case of passing the buck. He's not confident enough to shift the ball and create the angle to make the pass himself, so he takes the easy option. As you say, his stats then look pretty good, but fail to take this flaw into account. It's misleading and it papers over what I believe is part of the underlying issues we're having with ball retention.

The other factor to consider is that neither Gerrard nor Lucas seem to be consistently dropping in to create an overload when we have the ball at the back, to then allow us the numerical advantage to play our way out. They're very static at times and that's where I think Allen would help.

I think you could mention 3 or 4 lads in the back/central midfield who pass the buck every week when it comes to a pass. Might be going back to our over reliance to giving Reina the ball a lot as that lad could distribute the ball as good as any Libero (sp). Anyway we all know Skrtel is no Hansen, neither was Carragher, Hyppia ....I suppose when we were pleading for a no fear tackling monster last year to help our defense out we forgot to mention he better pass like an Alonso as well.

Not sure what is in the water right now at Anfield but we are not playing possession football in the same manner we saw glimpses of last season. Its not just Skrtel failing to keep the ball for more than 3 passes as we are treating the ball like a hot potato. Already the return of Suarez cant come soon enough which made some of those threads about us actually being a better team without him laughable (they were then too to be honest) but with his return we also need fullbacks in the starting 11, a fit Sturridge, Coutinho to come back, Moses to find his feet, Toure to get back on track from his injury etc etc etc. Lets all breath together, relax and .......kick some UTD ass tomorrow

[Jizzinho]

I didn’t think we were going to win this match and I was bemused by the confidence of some that we’d roll Saints over without too much problem.

Quite a few of their Summer targets were on the periphery of our scouting, Lovren being the best example. Their manager seems to be assembling an excellent side there, I wouldn’t be surprised if they finished top 8. If Pocchettino had succeeded with his 10 million pound bid for Coutinho (whom he managed when he was the boss of Espanyol and who he likens in some ways to Ronaldinho and  Messi) it would be interesting to see how far the gap between our teams would be.

For me, there were three big reasons why we were in trouble from the start. Firstly, they had us comprehensively worked out last season. Brendan saying “funnily enough they were the last team to beat us is” is not on – it wasn’t a coincidence. Secondly our options to do anything about that were severely limited by our injuries.

But most importantly we are currently in another transitional season.

We can’t have a “proper” season until we at least know our best 11 and style of play. And that won’t be determined for a good while.

Our recruitment policy has been based on getting the best players we can and making them fit rather than sticking to a system - which is fair enough but it will mean days where we do odd things such as playing four centre backs in defence. A major part of this season will involve experimenting. We had a perfect storm of doing just that, playing opponents who were savvy and also dealing with injuries.

What can’t be in any doubt however is that we are terrible at keeping the ball. In terms of our play we were completely shown up by Southampton who demonstrated how to play possession-based pass-and-move football.

The dilemma we have is that the team is reliant on Gerrard, Coutinho and Suarez who give the ball away far too frequently for the system to work reliably. Even now there are too many apologists who don’t recognise this simple fact. Brendan does – that’s why we’ve changed our tactics. Although we have made progress in many areas of our play we just aren’t working hard enough for the man on the ball – as helpfully pointed out by Prof above.

Personally I think we handled Carra’s departure in just about the worst way possible. We should have either persisted with Skrtel or used the opportunity to blood some of the kids and maintain a high line. Why the cogniscenti have determined that Martin “can never be a top level defender” or “is useless at playing a high line” is beyond me – Rafa seemed to have faith in him to do precisely that and came within a whisker of getting the formula exactly right.

The big question this season is about how we handle Gerrard. I read Halcyon Lissome’s posts with great interest and am almost convinced by his arguments but then I watch our Captain play and I can see that, at least when he tires, he’s not mobile enough and he doesn’t get in stuck in like he used to. Statistics never show the whole story but can on occasion be telling. I’m sure it was BabuYagu who pointed out his stats of one unsuccessful tackle in total in the second half when we were getting overrun against Swansea.

According to most people, dropping Mata would be crazy but that’s exactly what Mou has done. Big manager, big decision. Brendan has got a lot of thinking to do between now and our match against Sunderland.

[Grobbelrevell]

Not sure what is in the water right now at Anfield but we are not playing possession football in the same manner we saw glimpses of last season. Its not just Skrtel failing to keep the ball for more than 3 passes as we are treating the ball like a hot potato.

I agree with that and made a similar point myself. My question is whether or not the desire is still there from the manager to do so in the same way as previously stated, or has the mentality changed somewhat? If the desire is unchanged then we're simply failing to enact the plan and that either comes down to poor coaching, or players failing to carry out instruction. Both I find hard to believe, to the extent that we've seen anyway.

Already the return of Suarez cant come soon enough

I agree but with the caveat that his return may also add a further issue in line with the above discussion. He's a world class player, but he's also very single minded in his approach. He will try and beat the extra man and try the extraordinary pass/shot and both will result in him losing possession on occasion. We know this already, and it's not exactly conducive to a team looking to enact 'sterile domination'. That's not how Suarez operates. What he offers probably outweighs this side-effect,  but if anyone is thinking that Suarez is the answer to our problems in retaining the ball, they may be setting themselves up for disappointment.

[Corkboy]

According to most people, dropping Mata would be crazy but that’s exactly what Mou has done. Big manager, big decision.

Please. Firstly, "Mou"? And secondly, look at the personnel that twat has compared with our manager. Oscar, De Bruyne, Schurrle, Hazard, Willian. That's about £80 million worth of attacking midfield talent. Dropping Mata is not a big decision when you have those kinds of alternatives, yet you seem to be suggesting dropping Gerrard in favour of who?

[barneystuta]

http://basstunedtored.com/2013/09/22/mignolets-passing-poor-ability-or-lack-of-options/

BassTunedToRed nailed it for me.

I was at the game, and it was plainly obvious to me what the issues were. The team selection, the Skrtel mistake, the subsquent errors from there, the lack of Coutinho, and more, all were a concern. But our real issue was something else.

Southampton and their pressing.

In the first 10-15 mintues we were pretty decent, without being special. We held our own, had a couple of efforts at goal, and Gerrard had a good free kick saved.

Then things went to pot.

Southampton's game is to press, press, press. As we have seen a number of times this season, our ability to quick counter is neither here nor there. The loss of Coutniho and lack of attacking full backs further compounded our problems. While Southampton did press, we struggled to counter and get in behind.

Let me make one thing clear. If it wasn't for Mignolet, we would have fewer points on the board than we do now, and a lot more goals conceded too. Also, it isn't all down to him. He needs options, people to come and get the ball, and carry it 20-30 yards up the pitch to the midfield (or further).

Constantly though, the ball was pinged back to Mignolet, with no option. Southampton pressed so well it made it very hard for him to pick out any "safe" option. This resulted in the punt up field, lost possession, and back to square one. Even if we won the second ball, Southampton quickly pegged us back, and the ball was back at Mignolet's feet.

It really was an excellent display from them in how to press, and we had no comeback or counter to it.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, and I am hopeful that this is something that Rodgers will learn. He is an intelligent coach and manager, and will know he messed this one up. Southampton figured us out, realised that Mignolet has a weakness, and exploited it by putting our CB's under pressure constantly.

There are a few key things we need to take away from this performance, and they are:

- Play at least one "proper" full back - Even with Johnson and Cissohko injured, we still had Kelly, Flanagan, and Enrique. For different reasons, each one isn't "ideal". And I actually thought Sahko and Toure defended pretty well (even at full back). We could have got away with playing one CB at full back (if possible, avoided).

I don't want to see us starting 4 CB's in a match again (unless absolutely necessary).

A CB carrying the ball from defence and the middle of the park is tough (even for Agger), and it is the full backs who are there to help carry the ball the first 30-40 yards, to bring the midfield into the game.

- Coutinho is out, now what? - OK, Suarez is coming back. He will be fit and ready to go, I am pretty sure of that. He is a match winner, and can do the unimaginable at times (both good and bad). Even with this though, we will still miss Coutinho, as he is key to the way we have played since February. So what can we do?

I'd like to see Luis Alberto have a go, the lad scored a hat trick for the u21's last week, so why not? He has proven he can retain the ball well (against Manchester United, he did the simple things well) and is clearly a gifted footballer. Replacing Coutinho is a big ask for the young lad, and he may not have the final ball that Phil has (yet), but he will help us when we get the ball up the park, keep it there, and bring the likes of Suarez & Sturridge in to play

- Mignolet and his distribution - Look, no keeper is perfect. And distribution is one area that Mignolet needs some support and help with.  The lad has done wonders for us, with match changing and winning saves. He needs the support and help from his team mates to ensure that his weakness is not so easily exploited.

- Lucas & Gerrard - As has been referred to a number of times, you do worry about the legs in midfield. Not doubting their leadership qualities and ability, which they both have in abundance, but the legs are a concern. Especially when they are relied on so heavily this season. Central midfield is a hard position to play, and requires a real tank full of energy.

Allen will help when he comes back, and we need to manage the Lucas & Gerrard partnership effectively. When it works, it is great. When it tires, all the above is further compounded by the weakness of the middle.


Overall, 10 points after 5 games. Averaging 2ppg and we haven't even got going yet. Work this out over the season, and you are talking 76 points, a pretty decent return.

We have Suarez to come back, and have the opportunity in 3 very winnable games, to get 9 points. 19 from 8 games has to be the target

In the last 4 seasons that would have had us 2nd, 3rd, 1st, 2nd.

We have struggled since 2008/2009 to get a good run together, and it was only in the second half of last year, did we manage to achieve this. Now our unbeaten run has come to an end, it is about how we bounce back.

A real test for our young team, and this could be the difference between us achieving and not.

[SerbianScouser]

We have been unable to maintain possession with any consistency this season

I think it has a lot to do with the change of system and a fact we`re missing some excellent technicians in Coutinho, Allen and Suarez.

Ironic thing is that Rodgers came here to install 433 passing system not just for the first team but for the whole club too and then we start the season with 4411 which is an incredible head scratcher to be honest.

The way we`ve been setup last few games gives us so little chance to have some fluidity and it`s compounded with the absence of Coutinho who can receive the ball between the lines and make teams back off not to mention two full backs.

What I dont understand is what is Henderson supposed to do on the right of two banks of four? Is he supposed to beat full backs with pace and skills and then put crosses in ? Because many times he showed he doesn`t have the ability to do so nor do we ever cross as a team anyway. Bewildering.

I just listened to TAW and they have almost exact same concerns as people on this board but they never mentioned that the reason we are not fluid in our passing is because our set up doesn`t allow us to. How can it when people are set up to move only in straight lines it defies the whole idea on midfield triangles and making angles for passing.

I think this 4411 experiment even though brought us 10pts will go to the bin and I expect us to get back to the system we used last season which made us a team that scored the most goals in the league January onwards.

[zabadoh]

We played a 4-4-1-1 vs Soton's 4-5-1 and they pressed our back line.  All of our back line, making us play facing our own goal and give up the ball to the goalie for long punts.  No help for the back line came from midfield either.  Where was Hendo when Skrtel was being pressed?  Likewise, Moses/Sakho?  Even Gerrard could have helped out to give our fullbacks some passing options.  Instead, we played a flat 4 in midfield, very strange.

Without fast, overlapping fullbacks to carry the ball forward, and our midfield evenly matched or overrun, there was nowhere else for the ball to go, and we conceded corners, throw ins, and 50-50 long balls as a result.

When we did get the ball into their half, we looked decent.  I don't think Aspas played as badly as most are giving him stick for.  Sturridge looked tired and needs a rest.  For reasons outlined above, we couldn't get the ball our of our own half, so service to the front 4 was spotty.  What I will say is that we needed Aspas to drop into the midfield and even up the numbers there, but he was coached to position himself where he did, and that was Rogers' fault.  That, or he should have been dropped for a 5th midfielder from the beginning.

Southampton's not-too-subtle pressing tactics had been identified in last season's loss to them back last March, and the same happened here, yet we looked utterly unprepared for them.

[John C]

I didn't see the whole game so I am reluctant to comment but I do not follow all the Skrtel hating. Yes, he failed to control the play leading up to the goal, but that goal came from a corner. Corners happen in football, you have to defend them, Agger didn't. The blame for the goal rests squarely with him.

We gave a throw in away mate, then we gave a corner away which led to the goal. I wouldn't be blaming Skrtel for us conceding, otherwise we'd have to compile a list of candidates that give fouls away that lead to a goal.

It was just disappointing stuff all over the park corky.

[Aristotle]

We gave a throw in away mate, then we gave a corner away which led to the goal. I wouldn't be blaming Skrtel for us conceding, otherwise we'd have to compile a list of candidates that give fouls away that lead to a goal.

It was just disappointing stuff all over the park corky.

Could just as easily have happened in any of the other 5 corners we conceded. Had we conceded a goal after that quadruple Mignolet save would Skrtel have been the fall guy for the goal?

[BazC]

I didn't see the whole game so I am reluctant to comment but I do not follow all the Skrtel hating. Yes, he failed to control the play leading up to the goal, but that goal came from a corner. Corners happen in football, you have to defend them, Agger didn't. The blame for the goal rests squarely with him.

I agree. I don't think you can fault Skrtel as much. The thing is, all players have deficiencies, a good team will make up for the individual deficiencies and give a platform for the strengths to shine through. When Skrtel has the ball, who's giving him the option to receive the pass? Southampton were pressing well and closing the space down very well, and they snuffed out the easy balls. But who should be showing for it and giving him the easier ball to play? Considering we want to keep the ball in possession...

And yes, the corner should have been defended better. It wasn't.

On Skrtel in the long term; I don't think he's a first choice when everyone's fit. The CBs need to be more adept at handling an open game when their midfielders are nowhere to be seen. Skrtel's not good at that, just like Carra wasn't. Hopefully Sakho/Toure are, and hopefully that means that when they do get bedded in to the side, we can see that expansive style of football returning, with the confidence that the CBs aren't going to get overrun when we get caught on the break. See Man City and Kompany's performance yesterday. The aggressive pushing of Rooney, the reading of the play, and even when Man Utd get joy down the flanks, the aerial dominance in the middle.

I remember Mourinho talking about Terry once, and singing his praises. He mentioned how he demanded his CBs to be strong in situations where they got caught open and faced with 2-3 attackers running at them, with their midfield nowhere to be seen. He said how he'd adapted well to those demands. I think top attacking teams these days need that strength at CB when faced with 2-3 attackers against 2, with fullbacks and CM potentially caught out of position.

Rodgers has strengthened in exactly those areas. CB saw Toure (he knows how to defend this way) and Sakho (who I suspect Rodgers expects to play this way) come in, I think for the first team. And there was also the push to sign better attacking players (there've been so many times that we should have won games given the dominance but couldn't finish the chances- then ended up losing points because teams would be great against us on the break). I mean it almost happened against Stoke exactly the same way.

Anyway, I think that's the plan here. But there'd still be questions in midfield if Gerrard/Lucas play as they have been, because part of that story is that the CMs get up the pitch more to support the attacks too. I think it's a form issue with them anyway, but it would be an area of the park we need to look at in the coming windows I think.

A lot of change recently in the team, and we've done well to pick up 10 points so far. But hopefully it won't take too long for things to fall into place, because we can't afford to drop points like we have in the last week too often.