Topic: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics (*)

[catinthebag]

press liking us with wanamaya again today.  i can't see him being cheap so surely there are better value targets out there than someone who isn't starting for spurs? 

What about Wilfred Ndidi? The rumours were short-lived but I think the player has potential...

[hassinator]

What about Wilfred Ndidi? The rumours were short-lived but I think the player has potential...

good defensive numbers; doesn't offer enough going forward for me.  would also be expensive.

[PhaseOfPlay]

good defensive numbers; doesn't offer enough going forward for me. would also be expensive.

Ndidi would.

[Djozer]

press liking us with wanamaya again today.  i can't see him being cheap so surely there are better value targets out there than someone who isn't starting for spurs?  he also strikes me as a pretty limited player compared to dembele but maybe the DM ultras can put me straight

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/transfers/liverpool-transfer-news-rumours-manchester-united-chelsea-victor-wanyama-tottenham-hotspur-a8215256.html

As a fully paid up member of the DM Ultras (I'm wearing the balaklava as I type this) I can honestly say that a DM as DM-ey as Wanyama is a bridge too far, even for me. All he seems to do is be really fucking strong and tackle people. Of course, it appears that once a decade he also smacks an unstoppable drive into the top corner, but I think we can safely discount that as being "one of those things that players only ever do against Liverpool," to be filed alongside Edman 40 yarders, ridiculous goalkeeping performances and beachballs.

I'd quite like a DM who's really good at the defensive side of things, but I'd also like him to be proper good at vertical passing, and if he fancies scoring once every so often that's cool too, although I'm not desperate for that latter attribute. Personally I'm quite happy for Henderson to be our first choice No. 6 as I think he's growing into the role and I think Klopp is too, but the frequent niggly injuries are a bit of a concern and I understand many don't rate him as highly as I have come to. I'd be happy seeing a slightly more defensive younger player coming in who can grow into the role and take over from Henderson, if there's a younger version of Lucas then I'd be sound with that.

Wouldn't be against Lewis Cook actually, feisty lad who's pretty good technically, English for the homegrown bollocks and surprisingly good at passing through the lines. He might be a bit small though, as in an ideal world we'd be aiming for someone better aerially and I think we could do better full stop, especially considering the English tax.

I'm assuming all those of you who regard the idea of a defensive defensive midfielder as an hilarious anachronism want some kind of Riquelme clone who will dance merrily across the pitch, performing rabonas down by the corner flag, but with the added bonus of occasionally dropping deep to make a tackle somewhere near the centre circle so as to pay lip service to the idea of a traditional No. 6? Could be a good laugh actually.

[hassinator]

totally agree on wanamaya as a big lump.  we may well need to defend better through MF but he's not a liverpool player.

think you will dig frenkie de jong: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9nYsO-JFV4

would be an ideal 6 understudy for hendo with great numbers in defence; passing and attacking.

if we don't get rabiot - we won't - i'd love him here.

[hassinator]

Ndidi would.

not averse to spending money but imagine the guts of the phil money will go on an attacker.

[hassinator]

totally agree on wanamaya as a big lump.  we may well need to defend better through MF but he's not a liverpool player.

think you will dig frenkie de jong: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9nYsO-JFV4

would be an ideal 6 understudy for hendo with great numbers in defence; passing and attacking.

if we don't get rabiot - we won't - i'd love him here.

sorry that link is back to him as a 10 here he is playing as a 6

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/lNF7cfvFH_0" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/lNF7cfvFH_0</a>

dm ultra vibes

https://www.transfermarkt.com/frenkie-de-jong/profil/spieler/326330

[Djozer]

frenkie de jong

Want.

[Goalposts for Jumpers]

sorry that link is back to him as a 10 here he is playing as a 6

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/lNF7cfvFH_0" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/lNF7cfvFH_0</a>

dm ultra vibes

https://www.transfermarkt.com/frenkie-de-jong/profil/spieler/326330

The biggest problem with Frenkie is that we'll need someone who can start immediately (assuming Can leaves and Hendo is unlikely to be available every week), and having so little experience and coming from the Eredivisie he'll need a while to get up to speed. Otherwise he looks great.

He reminds me of how Will Hughes and Christian Eriksen looked when we were linked to them. But which will he be more like in 3 years time?

[Djozer]

The biggest problem with Frenkie is that we'll need someone who can start immediately (assuming Can leaves and Hendo is unlikely to be available every week), and having so little experience and coming from the Eredivisie he'll need a while to get up to speed. Otherwise he looks great.

He reminds me of how Will Hughes and Christian Eriksen looked when we were linked to them. But which will he be more like in 3 years time?

To be fair to Hughes, didn't he have loads of injury problems? Still only 22 as well, so he could put it all together if he gets a decent run of fitness.

I really like the look of De Jong, but you may be right and he's not quite ready. Seems pretty shit hot though, so he might be closer than we think. I quite like the idea of a younger player to come in, progress and eventually supersede Hendo, but preferably one who can also play right away if needed. I have no idea if De Jong's at that level yet but he does seem very highly rated.

Anyone on here follow the Eredivisie closely think he could do a job here?

[Goalposts for Jumpers]

To be fair to Hughes, didn't he have loads of injury problems? Still only 22 as well, so he could put it all together if he gets a decent run of fitness.

I really like the look of De Jong, but you may be right and he's not quite ready. Seems pretty shit hot though, so he might be closer than we think. I quite like the idea of a younger player to come in, progress and eventually supersede Hendo, but preferably one who can also play right away if needed. I have no idea if De Jong's at that level yet but he does seem very highly rated.

Anyone on here follow the Eredivisie closely think he could do a job here?

Oh yeah, don't get me wrong, I really wanted us to sign him at the time, quality little player, just to say that at a young age in a lesser league it's really difficult to be sure how they are going to do in the prem in 2-3 years time.

I would also be interested to know what the locals think of this Frenkie fella. Also, how much would he cost?

[Suareznumber7]

Don’t discount Grujic coming back next year and being backup to Hendo in that 6 role.  Depending on how he does for Cardiff and how much Klopp rates him that could be an option. 

[Djozer]

Oh yeah, don't get me wrong, I really wanted us to sign him at the time, quality little player, just to say that at a young age in a lesser league it's really difficult to be sure how they are going to do in the prem in 2-3 years time.

I wanted to sign him too, actually, but then he seemed to stagnate a bit and wasn't there some sort of EDL weirdness too? in any case, hopefully he's wised up and gets past his injuries, looked really talented at a very young age from what I remember.

And yeah, completely agree that it's hard to judge young players vv adaptation, particularly if they come from weaker leagues. That De Jong looks to really have something, but I'm sure I've probably thought that about loads of young players over the years who've utterly failed to make the step up and gone on to do the square root of fuck all.

Don’t discount Grujic coming back next year and being backup to Hendo in that 6 role.  Depending on how he does for Cardiff and how much Klopp rates him that could be an option. 

You may be onto summat there. Still reckon we're more than likely going to get someone else in if, as seems likely, Can leaves, but knowing Klopp and his preference for promotion from within I too think Grujic has a puncher's chance, if he can really stand out at Cardiff.

[LiamG]

Was thinking,How much would Klopp of loved a younger pre-injury in form lucas!

[afc tukrish]

Ndidi would.

God, that's awful...

Tell me you're not here all week...

[PhaseOfPlay]

God, that's awful...

Tell me you're not here all week...

I'm even encouraging you to partake briefly of the seafood selection...

[JackWard33]

The biggest problem with Frenkie is that we'll need someone who can start immediately (assuming Can leaves and Hendo is unlikely to be available every week), and having so little experience and coming from the Eredivisie he'll need a while to get up to speed. Otherwise he looks great.

He reminds me of how Will Hughes and Christian Eriksen looked when we were linked to them. But which will he be more like in 3 years time?

He's great - not a chance he needs 3 years. No idea if he's ready now but we'd have Henderson, Keita, Milner, Gini, Aoc, Lallana and 'insert new attacking player signing here' .. makes perfect sense to sign a young 'could be world class / might be ready now' player like him to add to that mix

[afc tukrish]

I'm even encouraging you to partake briefly of the seafood selection...

 

[PaulF]

Has this turned into a transfer wish thread?

[Goalposts for Jumpers]

Has this turned into a transfer wish thread?

 

of course not 

[hassinator]

Don’t discount Grujic coming back next year and being backup to Hendo in that 6 role.  Depending on how he does for Cardiff and how much Klopp rates him that could be an option. 

elston gunn was suggesting grujic as our own felliani.  an impact player who can come off the bench and help us chase a goal or fill in as a 6 when we're protecting a lead.  he would be handy in this kind of role and has the height for crosses and defensive headers but will definitely need to improve on his pass accuracy if he's going to flourish here.  down to the mid 50s at cardiff

[Giono]

elston gunn was suggesting grujic as our own felliani.  an impact player who can come off the bench and help us chase a goal or fill in as a 6 when we're protecting a lead.  he would be handy in this kind of role and has the height for crosses and defensive headers but will definitely need to improve on his pass accuracy if he's going to flourish here.  down to the mid 50s at cardiff

His passing was not an issue when he played with us. I’d say that on that team with that manager, his pass completion rating is probably not that low. I’m more nterested to see how his defensive game improves over his time there.

[hassinator]

His passing was not an issue when he played with us. I’d say that on that team with that manager, his pass completion rating is probably not that low. I’m more nterested to see how his defensive game improves over his time there.

squaka have his average pass completion at 60%

http://www.squawka.com/players/marko-grujic/stats#performance-score#cardiff-city-(current)#english-football-league---championship#10#season-2017/2018#829#all-matches#1-32#by-match

[robgomm]

That's pretty good accuracy in a Warnock team. He seems to be acting as something of a battering ram in midfield for them.

[RedForeverTT]

Ruthless but in a different sense. This more like Paisley phasing out Hughes for Hansen, Ray Kennedy for Whelan and McDermott for Johnston. Bob has many strenghts but recognizing time to phase out great players and having the courage to do so was the one that I admire the most. And I think Klopp has that to in abundance

The phasing out of Sakho feels wrong at the time, a little petty too perhaps. But with hindsight I see the reasons now.

Klopp wanted to mould the team in his image and leaves no doubt whatsoever that his authority was not to be challenged, rightly or wrongly. Sakho got the wrong end of the stick and that was that. If Sakho has been a more valuable player like Coutinho, then maybe he gets a bit more slack.

Even a club like Barcelona still suffer fools like tax evasions from their players but overall the club took the view that the as long as the club still maintains greater influence over the group of players than the players had over them, they would tolerate it. I think we are not so much different.

[Doc Red]

Possible to characterizse his treatment of Sakho as ruthless...

Not to mention switching Milner from 1st choice to 3rd choice left back.

[Suareznumber7]

He's great - not a chance he needs 3 years. No idea if he's ready now but we'd have Henderson, Keita, Milner, Gini, Aoc, Lallana and 'insert new attacking player signing here' .. makes perfect sense to sign a young 'could be world class / might be ready now' player like him to add to that mix

I think these are exactly the type of signings we’ll see this year. I don’t expect to see any new signings come in and be looked at as first choice immediately.

[Suareznumber7]

elston gunn was suggesting grujic as our own felliani.  an impact player who can come off the bench and help us chase a goal or fill in as a 6 when we're protecting a lead.  he would be handy in this kind of role and has the height for crosses and defensive headers but will definitely need to improve on his pass accuracy if he's going to flourish here.  down to the mid 50s at cardiff

I’d hope that Grujic himself would be aiming higher then the level of player Fellani is.  I do wonder if that comparison is because Grujic is a big, tall, strong player who is good in the air. 

[newterp]

I’d hope that Grujic himself would be aiming higher then the level of player Fellani is.  I do wonder if that comparison is because Grujic is a big, tall, strong player who is good in the air. 

and likes a yellow card?

[hassinator]

I’d hope that Grujic himself would be aiming higher then the level of player Fellani is.  I do wonder if that comparison is because Grujic is a big, tall, strong player who is good in the air. 

i'd be happy with him playing a fellaini type role as it would be a massive step forward from his previous performances.

[Giono]

and likes a yellow card?

He seems to have got a couple early in the loan but hasn't had one for a while. Hopefully the more he plays the less of a card risk he will become.

[Goalposts for Jumpers]

I think these are exactly the type of signings we’ll see this year. I don’t expect to see any new signings come in and be looked at as first choice immediately.

Jeez, I hope not. We need at least one DM/CM starter. We've not been able to rely on Hendo all season, so doubt we will for next. Can will be going, and I expect Milner may leave as he'll really struggle for game time. I like the look of Ejaria, and it appears Grujic is ahead of him in a deeper role, but I would not like to be relying on either to start 30-odd games in our midfield next season. We must be getting a DM/CM in the summer. It just has to happen.

[PoetryInMotion]

I think these are exactly the type of signings we’ll see this year. I don’t expect to see any new signings come in and be looked at as first choice immediately.

Leon Bailey would be a nice signing in this mold.

[mercurial]

I am not sure if Klopp will go with a number 6 in the pure DM mode. He will probably like another player like a number 8 with good positioning sense. So that the players rotate into a 6 role as the other two players move up. In that sense we will probably play with three number 8 players. At least 2of them should also be able to move into a 6 role. That is what I expect given the players linked so far.

[PhaseOfPlay]

I am not sure if Klopp will go with a number 6 in the pure DM mode. He will probably like another player like a number 8 with good positioning sense. So that the players rotate into a 6 role as the other two players move up. In that sense we will probably play with three number 8 players. At least 2of them should also be able to move into a 6 role. That is what I expect given the players linked so far.

If we're going to plan everything around the Salah-Bobby-Mane attack, then we won't be playing with a #10, so it'll be two #8s and a #8 playing in the #6 position, as you say. But if we get attack-minded #8s, then we're going to vacate a lot of space in front of the defence. I hope we're looking at bringing in a true #6 to rotate with Henderson, because we could undo a lot of good work in games by leaving the defence exposed at crucial moments. So whoever we bring in during the summer for the midfield, one of them has to be of top-level tactical intelligence. The physical qualities would almost be secondary.

[Goalposts for Jumpers]

If we're going to plan everything around the Salah-Bobby-Mane attack, then we won't be playing with a #10, so it'll be two #8s and a #8 playing in the #6 position, as you say. But if we get attack-minded #8s, then we're going to vacate a lot of space in front of the defence. I hope we're looking at bringing in a true #6 to rotate with Henderson, because we could undo a lot of good work in games by leaving the defence exposed at crucial moments. So whoever we bring in during the summer for the midfield, one of them has to be of top-level tactical intelligence. The physical qualities would almost be secondary.

On which note - has anyone seen enough of Keith to know good his tactical intelligence is? It's one of those things that can't be gauged from all-touches vids and a handful of viewings. It is definitely something we lack in the centre, even with Hendo and Can available. It's also not one of AOCs strengths.

[mrantarctica]

On which note - has anyone seen enough of Keith to know good his tactical intelligence is? It's one of those things that can't be gauged from all-touches vids and a handful of viewings. It is definitely something we lack in the centre, even with Hendo and Can available. It's also not one of AOCs strengths.

Aerial dominance, tactical/defensive nous, speed across the ground, passing range, creative magic, ability to dribble and drive at the defence, ability from free kicks is what we are lacking in midfield and with the loss of Coutinho. It may take 2 players to solve some of these issues, and I don't think Keita is necessarily one of them.

I was hoping that our two advanced CM's/no 8's would be from Keita, Lallana, Hendo, AOC and Wijnaldum, and that we wouldn't then need to rely on Hendo, Gini or Keita on being a no.6. Hendo's passing range, athleticism and finishing are better utilised further up the pitch. Grujic might fill a few areas of deficiency but he doesn't seem like the complete player at the moment, and there are questions over his discipline. Ejaria hasn't played enough senior football to see what his best position even is. So it does look like we'll be doing a bit of shopping in the transfer period, especially if Can does leave.

[mercurial]

If we're going to plan everything around the Salah-Bobby-Mane attack, then we won't be playing with a #10, so it'll be two #8s and a #8 playing in the #6 position, as you say. But if we get attack-minded #8s, then we're going to vacate a lot of space in front of the defence. I hope we're looking at bringing in a true #6 to rotate with Henderson, because we could undo a lot of good work in games by leaving the defence exposed at crucial moments. So whoever we bring in during the summer for the midfield, one of them has to be of top-level tactical intelligence. The physical qualities would almost be secondary.

I sometimes wonder if Klopp looks at football like a kid at its foundation so as to speak. He wants players who have a natural vertical upward movement and thinking. A #6 player accomplished at covering for defense is a natural lateral player. He would not usually have a natural game of vertical upward movement. A accomplished #8 would have that but someone who can switch tactically into a more defensive mode. It is probably why he moves to 3 at the back to defend. Each defender is thinking naturally on  the  front foot but tactically maintains the position. I think in the end our defensive problems will not go away just by new signings. We will get better at attacking though which is frightening. A player who is not thinking inherently in a matter of milliseconds after receiving the ball about moving it up is not a fit for our style. Of course in most cases the ball will move laterally if vertical movement is difficult. The crux is the players have to see the natural movement up if possible.

[Gnurglan]

If we're going to plan everything around the Salah-Bobby-Mane attack, then we won't be playing with a #10, so it'll be two #8s and a #8 playing in the #6 position, as you say.

We need to do something with that front three as well, don't we? We can't expect them to play every single game. Some backup would be nice, in particular for Firmino.

Also, I remember you mentioned Klopp using a defensive winger. There was a chart of it, comparing Klopp here vs Dortmund. It's a while ago, but I have a question regarding that. Next season, do you think we might opt for Salah OR Mane on one wing with for example AOC and someone else on the other? If we did, we'd have our cover for the wings sorted and it would leave us with a backup for Firmino as a need for the summer. 

[LallanaInPyjamas]

We need to do something with that front three as well, don't we? We can't expect them to play every single game. Some backup would be nice, in particular for Firmino.

Also, I remember you mentioned Klopp using a defensive winger. There was a chart of it, comparing Klopp here vs Dortmund. It's a while ago, but I have a question regarding that. Next season, do you think we might opt for Salah OR Mane on one wing with for example AOC and someone else on the other? If we did, we'd have our cover for the wings sorted and it would leave us with a backup for Firmino as a need for the summer.

There's a difference between using a defensive winger in a 4-2-3-1 which is the system Klopp generally used at Dortmund and using a defensive winger in a 4-3-3 which is the system he's generally using here, though. The latter would be a waste of goal threat (which is why Ox wide in a 4-3-3 doesn't really work IMO).

We've seen him use Ox and to a lesser extent Mané as that 'defensive winger' in a 4-4-2 type of system this season and think that will continue in certain games away from home next season, when he wants a double pivot in midfield for more solidity, and Salah closer to Firmino.

I don't think it's a case of 'Salah or Mané' though, it's more a question of 4-3-3 or 4-4-2, and then juggling the players around in those systems. Ox, Mané and perhaps a new signing have the pace, work rate and dribbling qualities to fulfill that role.