Topic: Round Table: Liverpool 0-0 Stoke.

[Barney_Rubble]

Only caught a few minutes on a stuttery stream, but no doubt there's a fairly predictable inevitability about the game and the result.

We knew how they'd "play", and they lived down to all those expectations. As it has for years now, it's a tactic that often works against us; stifling the play and parking the bus.

[Garstonite]

I only pray that a striker capable of trapping a ball is on our shopping list this January. Kuyt has been a great servant for this club, but he's woeful in this set-up and I'm truly struggling to see what he offers us.

The fact the side weren't booed off the pitch is a testament to how united our fanbase is behind Kenny. Sometimes it needs to be said though: that selection and those substitutions were wrong, bordering on the fucking insane. Three centre-backs to counter the threat of Crouch, supported by Etherington? Seriously?

It's hard to find any positive from it to be honest. Depressing viewing.

[Chakan]

Has to be said I think Kenny got this one wrong. Maybe it was the injury to Agger or whatever that prompted 3 center backs , but for me it wasn't needed. Crouch can be a threat and the de lap long throw is a worry but I don't think we need 3 center backs to deal with it. The purpose of having 3 at the back is so that your fullbacks can be more wingbacks than defenders, and for me Enrique while great at defending, lets himself down here. He needs to start kicking forward and getting at other defenders. Johnson had some good runs and popped up in the center a couple of time but by in large ineffectual.

Adam I think had a good game, when he doesn't have to get back to defend he is brilliant. His cross field passing was really on form today and some great balls wide spread the play nicely. Gerrard for was sitting far too deep and I think he had a poor game. Still a positive that he got through 90 minutes.

Upfront well what can you say, Downing was largely anonymous, he hardly beats the man and I am struggling to recall any crosses he made (not that there was anyone in the middle to receive them), which brings me to my next point. Are out players allergic to getting into the box? The reason united scrap 1-0 victories is because when they ball is played in they generally have 2 or more people in the box waiting to get on the end of it, Kuyt by himself can only do so much. Although I have to say Kuyt is on his last legs at the club, for all his faults his greatest asset to us was his ability to pop up in the right places and put the ball in the net. For whatever reason this season he can't seem to get that vital touch, which just highlights his flaws even further.

The substitutions well, Carroll made an immediate impact and we looked dangerous for 10 minutes when he came on and we had 2 upfront, why we didn't start like this is anyone's guess. My gripe with Carroll right now is that for a big made he doesn't half end up on the floor a lot. Every delivery into the box Carroll is biting turf. "Stay on your feet!" Bellamy came on and was largely anonymous as well, we really need play him from the start or give him 25-30 minutes to make a difference.

The bench was disappointing, I really don't think we needed Kelly, Flannagan and Aurelio on the bench. Where was Maxi? His creativeness and goal threat was sorely lacking today. Hell bring on Shelvey for the last 10 minutes, at least go for the win! Pack the box, try pick up the 3 points.

Positives were only really Coates I thought, had a great game and looked very composed at the back, so well done to the lad.
We're in 6th 5 points off chelsea in 4th, we are making the race for 4th so so tough on ourselves. We are relying on people's mistakes rather than us winning. We need to show intent.

We need a striker no 2 ways about it. We need someone to give the defense something to think about, Suarez was that person, without him we don't have any goal threat.

[Aristotle]

Kenny got it wrong, no doubt about it. People have some absurd tendancy to equating disagreeing with or being unhappy with Kenny to wanting Roy back, preferably with Purslow as assistant manager/director of football/goal keeper and Hicks and Gillett personally draining your own bank account. Well tough shit. He got it as wrong today as he did it right in the past 3 games. 3 at the back sounds OK in theory, but it was so awkward it was shocking. The whole idea is to have wing backs and they provide width. Johnson spent large parts of the game in his diet-Libero role resumed from the City game. Carragher and Skrtel got in each other's way and Skrtel did well bringing up the ball as some sort of right-back/holding midfielder/center-back combination but every time he ventured forward one of the 3 midfielders or Johnson got in his way and it never resulted in anything.

The midfield was a strange one. Gerrard was marginalised playing so deep. When there wasn't a single player in the box and no one within shooting distance you'd think we would've set up so that he was the man to be on the end of all that creative talent. Henderson had a decent game and I don't get why he was brought off instead of either Carra or Coates. Adam was just so damn inconsistent. He played a 40 yard pass that was an absolute peach but he seems to be like an advanced version of Carragher if he has time on the ball. Get the ball, stop it, tap, tap, tap, put your foot through it. I get that he can do wonderful things, but his inability to do simple things like pass it instantly with his right or even the outside of his left. One thing he did, which he has done in almost every game without fail and that's his trademark show up too late and sweep someone's feet challenge. It's almost like OCD for him. And he could do with some patience or concentration or whatever you want to call it. There is no harm in passing it between yourselves until the right pass becomes available, instead of trying to force the final ball whether it's there or not. And like I mentioned before. He always feels like a quarterback. He can pull moments of magic out of his arse but you can't shake the feeling that unless he has a linebacker covering his ass, he'll be stripped of possession and be out of play on the counter.

As for our attack. What can you say really at this point. How much longer can it be a matter of time. We're more than halfway through the season and with all the money we spent and all the promises and praises in the world, we've scored only scored more goals than the Bitters, Stoke, Villa QPR and Wigan. We have 8 less than Steve Kean's Blackburn! Yakubu on his own has scored half as many as our entire squad put together. And have the same goal difference as Newcastle, but they've scored 5 more. At the risk of opening up RAWK's favourite can of worms. Can someone tell me what the hell we were thinking when we got rid of both Aquilani and Meireles and didn't replace them? I don't care that they didn't want to be here, we knew that about Aquilani last summer and he still hasn't been replaced in our squad and Meireles was being pushed out the door from June onwards and ended up leaving near the end of the window without a replacement. They may be utter fucking assholes and if they don't want to take a bullet for the Shankly gates they can fuck off and never come back. But no ones going to convince me that during 2 transfer windows we were unable to find a single attacking midfielder who wants to join Liverpool and was available for the type of money we had to spend on the likes of Downing. The gap between midfield and striker(s) is what makes us so easy to stop and teams are becoming far too aware of that. Even though we have an improved squad, our starting XI still offers too little goal threat. And in the current circumstances not using Maxi is bordering on criminal.

Speaking of him which. I have a lot of time for Dirk Kuyt, I love his blondy locks and nerves of steel but his time at Liverpool must be coming to an end. If not for our sake, than for him to maintain some basic level of dignity once his inevitable time comes. Speaking of drawing nearer the end. I've just about had it with Stewart Downing. I'm sorry, I really am. I'd love for him to come good and see fullbacks shit themselves at the thought of him in the starting line up let alone coming full speed ahead. But with every passing game it feels like Robbie Keane mk.II in every sense and makes Keane look relatively good business. A winger who doesn't cross, shoot, take on the full back or offer width with his movement is, to quote the great Rip Torn, "about as useful as a cock flavoured lollipop". He shifts responsibility, he always look for the overlapping full back. When he beats his man he seems so completely bereft of confidence and self-belief that the few times he manages to beat his man he hits the cross over everyone, into the first defender or behind for a goal kick. And when he takes a shot it's cut in, aim for the near post and hit it straight at the keeper or past the post.
Carroll is discussion for another day. But seriously, are we really expecting him to score when we boot it in his general direction, never let him get the ball at his feet and the few times he makes it into the box the ball is booted like a balloon so the keeper has the advantage and the momentum on the ball is lacking so even Sami Hyypia in his prime would have problem putting any real force into them.


The most frustrating thing of all, is this exact rant applies to about 5 other games only breaking point in routine are the 3 CBs

[BazC]

As the season goes on and after every "we're disappointed, but we'll work harder to score goals next time" commentary from Kenny post game, you'd expect some lessons would be learned by players and manager alike. But it's not really happening is it?

Is it the players that aren't good enough? Kenny and Clarke not quite doing the right thing tactically?

For me, it's a bit of both- although for me, it's more about the players. Although today Kenny got it wrong with a team which was way too defensive on paper... but also on the pitch. Sure, you can play 5 defenders, and it may have been due to necessity (I actually said after the Man City game that I'd hope for Agger to step into CM until Spearing was back, because the midfielders who were fit can't really defend; Agger was injured, so we saw Coates and Carra come in). It became pretty obvious very early on that Stoke weren't going to try and play football (fair enough, we did the same for most of the Man City game- you do what you can). But the fact that it didn't prompt change quick enough was telling, and I think that's been a feature of Kenny's current approach.

But when you look at the season as a whole, I'd say the tactics have been good enough. We create a shitload of chances (usually) and generally keep the opponents from scoring against us. The main problems come down to chance conversion and the quality of chance created.

Today we saw painful examples of both. Downing putting in another anonymous performance, Kuyt missing a gilt edged chance to win the match (and that was when he finally got himself into a position to score without the ball bouncing off his knee/shin) and Carroll doing his "I'm going to hit the deck at any sign of contact" thing, even though he probably gets 1 freekcik in 10 such incidents. I mean it doesn't actually matter he's big and powerful, because he can't use it- it's like having a car with an incredibly powerful engine but it not having the torque to actually make the car go fast- it's utterly pointless.

In the next 6 months we're going to need to replace Kuyt and Maxi, and in my honest opinion, Carroll and Downing. That's not to say get rid of Downing and Carroll; just that we need to bring in players who might actually offer a bit of a goal threat and have a bit of creativity. Which probably means spending big, and that's going to be interesting, because I do wonder if the money will be spent again. Although saying that, I don't think there was a positive net spend given the transfers out and the wage bill changes, so it might mean that actually the capacity is there to spend on a couple of £20m players.

Whatever happens, you'd hope it's not spent on another Carroll/Downing even Henderson type (I like Henderson, but he's definitely one more for the future).

[royhendo]

All I'd add to the mix is that it's close. The control is there, the defensive solidity's there, and we need players who can build a disruptive momentum, and who can put it in the net.

If you set out with the expectation that you won't make top four, it's less of a grind. I don't believe for a minute we're not making signings, and overall the balance is close to where it needs to be. Frustratingly distant, but close nevertheless.

Good to hear the mood was relatively calm in the ground.

[Yorkykopite]

I thought we'd left those days behind. Kuyt and Carragher in the starting line up meant we entered the game with 2 players who contribute virtually nothing when we have the ball. No team can hope to create much with just 8 outfield players. Put those two in the Man City starting line up and they'd struggle too. And so it proved. There was something depressingly inevitable about the 0-0 scoreline.   

[Danyaals Kop]

As soon as I saw the team sheet yesterday, I was slightly hesitant but willing to see how the team would do. Unfortunately, we were nowhere near getting a goal with how the attack was operating yesterday.

We had 3 CBs against a team who had only Crouch up forward for the hoof. Crouch tends to lay the ball for Walters and Etherington who were back at the half way line when he would normally receive the ball so I don't know why Kenny changed the formation yesterday, esp. at halftime. Johnson is excellent at getting forward and did look like a proper WB but rarely had anybody to cross to, and would usually cut in and pass the ball inwards and lay it towards the CM's while may drifting a ball into the box or he would pass it to the barely effective Downing. José is a brilliant defender, no doubt and probably the best LB in the league when it comes to his job but coming forward he does make space and all that but his shooting or more importantly, crossing is woeful.

Gerrard was pretty anonymous yesterday and Henderson bar few flashes of trickery offered very little too. I don't why there was criticism for Adam yesterday - okay, fine he has failed to show any glimpses of those set-pieces that made a certain someone say that his corners alone are worth 8m but yesterday since he wasn't busy helping the defence and Kenny had made Gerrard drop back, he played a few very good balls and was very determined to get to the ball and was better than most players going forward with his dribbles.

Kuyt ? I love the man but I think it's time to go. From last season's top scorer to having not scored a single goal this season just sums it up. His work ethic is inspirational but let's face it, even he can't get into goal poaching positions anymore and he really should be a backup player.

Downing is shit for us. Plain and simple. I believe in Carroll, fuck I really do but not Downing. The reason being because I learnt a mistake with Lucas. My dad kept telling me 3 seasons ago that Lucas would blossom while I would ridicule him and say he's old age is finally getting to him. No, it took Lucas a while but he proved majority a Liverpool supporters wrong and that was that. Since,Lucas has become the heart of our team and we would kill to get him back right now. When I look at Carroll, I see something, I don't know what but I just know it's going to take a little time but he will get there as he also has time on his side but Downing... fuck me. He's what 27/28 years old, been playing in the premier league for a long time, should have the experience to know when to cross, cut. shoot but no. He just runs to the side and gives a cross for catching practice to the keeper or pass back. When he gets a shot, he'll try to place a weak, low shitty shot at the keeper's preferred side. No movement, no creativity, just awful.

I don't know why but Kenny needs some slight addressing. I mean fine, with whatever reasons may come out about Raul Meireles not wanting to be here or neither did Aquilani but how nonclinical is our attack. When some player is on the wing, there is absolutely no more than one player in the box at the time. Look at last season and how we played under Kenny - most importantly Raul's goals. He's making a run from the edge of the area - Wigan, Wolves, Chelsea, STOKE and that too after going for the second ball even though we have numerous players in the box. We used to overload the box for fun, just to hit the back of the net. We let players go who could've player much more influential parts in our squad than most are doing so. No one seems bothered to go in to the box for a fucking header, no one seems to know hot cross the ball for shit except Gerrard. No one knows how take a corner, no one knows how to fucking score ! I mean at least try to attack the ball from the wings by having 3 players in the box and one lurking just outside. I'm not saying I want him back but w=there should have been a replacement.

On a last point, the treatment of Maxi has been despicable. A person who seems a lot to be our most dangerous attacking player rarely gets a game. Yesterday, he wasn't even on the bench whether it was due to injury or not - it still hasn't been addressed. I won't be surprised if he wants to leave the next tranfer window, if not this one.

Some posters saying, we played the same formation last year against the same opposition and won - well last year teams weren't afraid to come and have a go at us. We were just coming back from a turmoil period and they used to actually played football. Shows how far we have come that Stoke, who are I think 7th are fucking parking the bus at Anfield but still 7 draws in 11 home games is disgraceful.

Transfer policy for British youth and all that, bollocks. Our best signings under Kenny's regime have been the opposite = Enrique and Suarez.

We have half a month left in the transfer window, and I hope to God that Comolli and Dalglish are looking at proves striker like Torres, Suarez were. No shit like Zaha, that we are linked to - just someone who we know will score goals. At this point, I won't be disappointed with Bent who can atleast score.

To sum it up for yesterday's match - Why did we play 3CBs for a team with 1 forward and operating the hoof when we could have utilized the extra position for someone like Maxi.

[Yorkykopite]

As soon as ......

"Woeful", "awful", "despicable", "shit" etc etc. This is just a slightly better written version of the tantrums being thrown in the main forum.

There's no proportion here - and loads of contradiction. You admit to writing off Lucas when he first arrived (always a bit of a tell-tale sign for me) but now happily write off Downing. You castigate Downing for not being able to find a Liverpool head in the penalty area while blaming the forwards in general for not getting into the box. You want an end to 'buying British' while hoping we land Darren Bent. You find it a crime that Maxi wasn't on the bench and then admit he might be injured.

It looks to me you're still in a lather and aren't thinking straight.   

[SMD]

It's got nothing to do with buying British. I would've thought by now we knew that a good player is a good player, sometimes it works straight away and sometimes it doesn't. However the best players have the desire and will to win that sees them try to power through obstacles like that. Stewart Downing hasn't shown that barring a handful of brief moments across the season.

By the same token, Jordan Henderson has the most potential of all our signings in the summer (yes, even more than Coates in my opinion).  I have the same view of him that I did when Maxi joined, in a team with great movement and understanding we'll get the best out of them. Henderson is just lacking the experience and a bit of self belief but when the lad acts on instinct you can see quality there. He's unlucky that he hasn't had the benefit of playing Gerrard, Lucas, Maxi and Suarez all in the same line up on a consistent basis.

We do need signings. We need players who are dangerous in the penalty area. Carroll should be a long term project for Kenny to sort out but in the meantime, we need someone who will share the burden with Suarez in the attacking third. The thing is, while Adam is churning out frustrating performances, is he really much worse than Manchester United's central midfielders? Is he someone who wouldn't get into the first team of most clubs in the league?

Top four and above isn't out of our reach. The league has been just as inconsistent as us so while we've been frustrating, other teams haven't been running away with it. 13 points off the top half way through the season? That's not so bad on paper.

[Danyaals Kop]

There's no proportion here - and loads of contradiction. You admit to writing off Lucas when he first arrived (always a bit of a tell-tale sign for me) but now happily write off Downing. You castigate Downing for not being able to find a Liverpool head in the penalty area while blaming the forwards in general for not getting into the box.

This is a more comprehensive reason...

Downing offers very little. He can't keep his head up while dribbling and most of his crosses are overkicked. His shots are weak, always aiming for the bottom right corner when on the right side and he can't seem to take a defender on. I blame the forwards for not getting into the box, yes - but why does he cross it when there is no one to cross to ? He can take on a defender, pass side ways and make a run into the box etc. I write him off for any improvement because when Lucas arrived, there was pressure on him as he was just coming to a foreign country after being acclaimed as Brazil's best young player. He had time to mature and develop and get used to the Premier League. Carroll has way too much expectation on him. He does not have sufficient lack of service and is not always introduced into the game. He too is young and has time to develop. On the other hand, Downing has been playing in the premier league for years, should be in his peak years and be doing wonders if we paid 18m for him and match after match, hope slightly fades. I really hope he get's the form he had before and plays integral parts for Kenny in the future, but I don't see it happening. That is to say, I still hope he achieves the ambition that we hope comes from him.

You want an end to 'buying British' while hoping we land Darren Bent.
 

What I mean to say here is that I am a fan who hopes our future is always secure and bright but our present is also doing well so we may keep progressing.

I said,

Transfer policy for British youth

- that overpaying for British youth may not be the way. Fine, we may keep buying players like Henderson but we are continuously linked with more players from league of lower tiers and are youngsters. Now, I know there is a difference b/w actually buying a player and being linked but at the same time, what may benefit us more is buying players who have actually done it, who are accomplished, have proved themselves and will not be gambles. We already have a decent youth setup and good players for the future in Kelly, Coates, Robinson, Suso, Coady, Henderson etc.

For right now, if we do want to buy British, buy some one who keeps doing it season after season and is consistent such as Bent.

You find it a crime that Maxi wasn't on the bench and then admit he might be injured.

True, but I also say that the way he is being treated is sad. I mean, he is one of our players who is very consistent yet he cannot get as many starts as he deserves. Not just yesterday, but all season. He wasn't included in our squad yesterday and there was no reason given while when Danny got injured, the club make a statement as to why. Thus, another reason as to wonder how the club may actually value him.

[Neil D]

Yesterday we started without probably four of our five best outfield players. I think Lucas, Suarez, Agger and Bellamy would be in all our ideal first elevens at present.

We are also seeing as the season has progressed that this new team/squad Kenny is putting together is a team very much in transition with a lot of new signings and several areas of the squad that still need to be addressed. We have some veterans whose time here appears to be nearing its end such as Kuyt and Carra, important players over the last few years, and some young players yet to find their feet or reach a consistently high standard. We also have some very important players returning from injury or out injured and suspended and the team is suffering because of this state of flux.

We look defensively very solid, yet we struggle to score and break teams down due to our lack of quality in attacking positions. The way our midfield and attack has changed so many times this season and failed to gel has clearly not helped. We are struggling to produce consistently good performances and we go from very good to very poor performances, sometimes over two halves within the same 90 minutes. We find it easier away from home when the onus is not on us to take the game to our opponents, and when playing quality opposition when we have to up our game and the games are more open. These are the hallmarks of a team yet to reach the next stage in its development - this side has not grown together and does not have the quality built up over several years that our rivals possess. We have come a long way in the last 12 months, and the foundation for success is now there. But a lot more needs to be done.

I think the sooner we as fans collectively lower our expectations and realise that for now we are 'a cup team' that will probably finish fifth or sixth yet may win one or even two domestic cups this year and then look to push on again this summer the better. Otherwise there will be much wringing of hands and gnashing of teeth because there will be a few more days like yesterday before this season is out.

[andyrol]

i dont think there was anything wrong with the formation bearing in mind agger,spearing were out. its just that i dont think dirk can do the lone striker role anymore especially if its with downing, kuyt has no pace and downing has no 'footballing' brain. imagine that formation with suarez instead of dirk. it was just the wrong time to try it. id like to see carroll getting a long run of games now, with maxi and bellamy either side of him ( luis for one of them when he's back).  yesterday showed again how much we miss lucas as well. nobody in midfield 'mopped' up like he does.

[-Willo-]

Team is crying out for some real, real class, bar Stevie we didn't have anyone like this on the pitch attacking wise yesterday, you ain't going to get top 4 if that is the case sadly, having said that Gerrard was so deep yesterday we effectively had none, from the first 15 minutes you could tell it was going to be a 0-0.

[Shanks1965]

I didnt mind starting the game with 3 central defenders because I think played properly the wing back formation offers a lot going forward. The problem with it is that if the two wing backs (Johnson and Enrique) dont get any further forward than they do as full backs then we're basically playing with and extra defender and we're one short somewhere else. Usually up front. That's how I saw it panning out yesterday as the game progressed. Johnson did well and was heavily involved in the attack but Enrique faded badly in the second half. He made occassional runs when he got the ball but most of the time he was hanging back and as a result spent a lot of the time not getting involved as much as we needed him too. This to me suggested that playing the extra central defender was more about having the ability to cope with their aerial threat than outwitting them tactically.

The stats prove just how ineffective we were in terms of creating goals scoring chances which begs the question why didnt we change things around? The substitutions did little because the tactics never changed and Stoke kept us at arms length without too much trouble. I've long harboured a view that changing games tactically isnt one of Kenny's greatest strengths. The game for me was crying out for either taking a central defender off in favour of an attacker or taking Enrique off and playing Downing as the left sided wing back with Bellamy in front of him. Both would have given us better options going forward. It's sacrilidge to compare Kenny and Taggart but we've seen United in the same sort of situation many, many times and they are never afraid to take defenders off in favour of attackers AND... get bodies in the box. We only started to do that in the last 10-15 minutes yesterday as the usual 3pt panic set in. I recall Johnson getting to the bye line in the first half and as his cross was blocked for a corner the only person "arriving" in the box was Downing.

So all in all and stating the obvious very dissapointing but then we perhaps need to reset our expectations when playing at home to anyone but the best teams who we always raise our game against. Starting to smack of a small team mentality to me.

[Upinsmoke]

Its hard to say anything positive except that performance was hopefully a one off.
Its hard enough to play against stoke, you know what there gonna do, especially away but the formation and in turn the selection gave them a good chance of getting a result and they did just that.

Its easy to criticise the players, only pepe, carragher, coates and skrtel did okay and thats because there was so little pressure on them from stoke going forward. I dont feel its fair to criticise the likes of adam, carroll....even downing because how can you perform in such a formation. They had a poor game, but that was through the formation that kenny chose. 

Dissapointing that agger was injured but surely coates or carragher coming in for him would of sufficed. Post match kenny said the injury to agger, spearing etc meant he had to change things but surely selecting that formation hindered our opportunity to win. Bring coady in for spearing, we brought flanno in last year, aswell as robinson, why the reluctance this year? I think if Manchester United Or Arsenal was depleted and needed a player in a holding midfield role they would bring a young lad in, just for a game or so, like we did with flanagan and robinson last season.

I just feel that kenny got it extremely wrong and cost us that game.

[Girder of Girth]

and now fuckin' Newcastle are above us in the PL!!!

Fer feck's sake!

[Johnnyboy1973]

All I'd add to the mix is that it's close.

I feel the same way. Couple of quality attacking players and we will be there. But, they have to be quality.

In the Summer I felt we needed amongst other things a "first team" player for the left and right of midfield. Having bought Downing and Henderson I find myself saying the say thing in January.

[litmanen37]

Basically, the team selection was wrong.

We praise Kenny when he gets it right (which he often does) but he should not be immune from criticism just because of his status with us, the fans.

He started a game, at home to Stoke, with 5 defenders on the pitch. He also started with one striker who hasn't scored a league goal for over a year I think. We also ended the game with 5 defenders on the pitch and we didn't change anything until after the hour mark.

We had 1 shot on target. At home. To Stoke City.

Team selection all wrong for me - and if Rafa or dare I say it, Hodgson, had picked that XI at home to Stoke City, there would've been absolute murder - and we all know it.

Hopefully Kenny learns from this and doesn't worry about people like Stoke coming to Anfield. Pick your best available XI and have confidence that Liverpools best XI will have enough to beat Stoke Citys best XI at Anfield.


Also, Carroll should've started. If he is staying (which appears to be the case) then we should've used the Suarez ban in his favour and said, next 8 games, play yourself into form. But being in and out like he is will be doing him no good at all - and similarly what must he be thinking with Suarez out and playing Stoke at home, we go with a forward also out of form that hasn't scored for a year ahead of him!!! However low his confidence is at the moment that will have done no good at all.


I expect to be shot down by some of the more blinkered on here for having a bit of a pop at Dalglish for yesterday, but I am not the only one at the match that felt this way.

Fingers crossed he learns from yesterday.

[leivapool]

Intelligence, thats what we're missing...... game intelligence.  Only Gerrard, who had to play deep, and Henderson, who is still learning, have an ounce of game intelligence.  The rest of our attacking 6 have not an ounce of it between them.

Adam, Downing, Enrique (in attack) Carroll, Kuyt, have a complete lack of game intelligence.  We're missing the guile of Lucas's intelligent passing, the intelligent movement of Maxi  and Bellamy creating space, the intelligent genius that is Suarez, and when he plays deep,  the intelligence of Gerrard's movement and excellent passing.  And I'm another who thinks that we miss a player like Meireles who will run beyond the defence pulling the defence about.  Adam is about as mobile as a lamp post.

We are predicable and slow in our build up.  This is the most disappointing feature of the summer transfer business for me - the replacement of intelligent players with British players who I saw described very accurately here:

fantastic, more players who run in straight lines, overhit crosses, don't understand how to draw defenders out of position and with a crap first touch. happy days.

[Mr Dilkington]

I say listen to Roy and Yorky.

Always works for me. 

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Always reluctant to not try any positives in a game so the few I can come out with were the performances of Skrtel and Johnson. Enrique also did well. Nice to see Coates given a game and shine. He looked composed for most of the game.

The formation seemed insane when I saw it, and this shock was proven right through possibly one of the most turgid games of football for 60 minutes seen at Anfield. There was no support, no idea, no clue and putting Kuyt up front on his own was just plain wrong. The Midfield stank throughout and even the panicky late introduction of two strikers had little effect as the clearly awful formation just meant that the play was isolated and sporadic at best.

Wrong formation. Wrong tactics and wrong personnel against a team that clearly came to Anfield thinking they would be beaten and beaten well. They offered nothing and were as any poor Stoke side I've seen.

We need to ditch that formation and ditch it now. We are better than this and some players need a kick up the arse. Just not good enough.

The referee was Howard Webb. Those words are enough to describe the game he had.

[swoopy]

Something to make us smile... how shit were those penalties at half time please?

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Something to make us smile... how shit were those penalties at half time please?

Aye poor lad. First one was great - hit the post with venom.

The less said about the second and third ones the better. Nice to see Sami too.

[Eeyore]

I think the main thing to come out of the Stoke game was that we desperately need to decide on a formation and a style of play. Once we have worked that out we can shape the squad to fit the formation and the style of play. At times we are changing formations and switching between getting crosses in and trying to pass and move from one minute to the next.

At times the players look completely lost, aren't sure where they are supposed to be playing and what we are trying to achieve. We should of been going into the game looking to exploit Stoke's weaknesses with a clear idea of how to do it. If we are going to look to get crosses in then we need to get Carroll on the pitch and get Gerrard and Downing into areas where they can get quality delivery into the box.

If we are going to play pass and move then we need to fill the team with pass and move players and call time on Carroll, Carra and Kuyt.

Paisley used to say that building a team was like doing a jigsaw puzzle. At present Kenny seems to have half the pieces of a Liverpool 87-88 style team and half the pieces of his Blackburn side and Kenny is trying to force the pieces together instead of slotting compatible pieces together. Second half against City and for the majority of the Stoke game we looked as disjointed and as unbalanced as we have done all season.

You watch the teams who we are competing with us for the Champions League places and it's pretty clear how they are trying to play that really isn't the case with us at the moment. We are a team in transition but it is hard to see which path we are trying to take and that needs to change or else the season will be over before we know it.

[HariLFC]

I know Arsenal are a very different proposition to Stoke, but watching this game today and how Swansea are playing, I'm frankly embarrassed by our 'performance' yesterday.

[exiledinyorkshire]

All I'd add to the mix is that it's close. The control is there, the defensive solidity's there, and we need players who can build a disruptive momentum, and who can put it in the net.

If you set out with the expectation that you won't make top four, it's less of a grind. I don't believe for a minute we're not making signings, and overall the balance is close to where it needs to be. Frustratingly distant, but close nevertheless.

Good to hear the mood was relatively calm in the ground.

kind of agree with you here Roy. I am happy with the foundations of this particular house. I can see it taking shape, and its obvious (to me anyway) how its going to look. Half way through the build, no point worrying that the rains coming in, cause the roofs not on yet.

The style is there, its being carried out in a workman like way at the moment, but its clearly visible. Flair and creativity in the final third is all we are lacking basically.And any expectations that i had were all of my own doing unfortunately. I mean Downing isnt Barnes, and Carroll isnt Shearer, and i feel a bit silly that i thought they might have been. The final piece of our jigsaw is still not in sight yet that is now clear. I'm happy with 5 out of 7 of Kennys signings thus far, and i dont think thats a bad strike rate after just one year in charge. I also feel that downing is still capable of turning it round.

 In a chapionship winning Liverpool of say 2015, many of the current playing staff wont be starting games. Football teams evolve. I beleive the genetic blueprint of our team to be sound, and i'm prepared to sit back and see just who will be in the starting eleven in 3 years time. For me, i expect to see 3-5 more younguns from the ressies playing regularly, and by that time the fluency and attacking patterns of play that are so clearly missing at the moment will be literally hardwired into a young attractive team ready to dominate the league.

I Am Happy.

[steveeastend]

There were for sure good reasons to rebuild the line up/squad the way we did in summer but after all it´s pretty clear that we simply gave away too much quality and brought in not enough quality.

Remember, Kenny was world class as a player. Those Ex-top-players often take things for granted, they often overestimate the abilities of players and do think more of their vision of football than those down-to-earth problems a player like Downing for example has to manage due to his lack of talent. Probably Kenny overestimates the ability of Comolli of judging a player for the requirments needed for playing Kennys style of football as well..

The thing is though that the foundation is there, let´s not forget that we beat City a couple of days ago and some players being tired played a part in todays draw as well. And if you look at the way we work as a team it´s really "only" the quality in our attacking play missing so I just don´t know why we keep on hesitating to take the necessary steps cause it´s been obvious for quite a while now.

I am very sure that with Suarez coming back, Gerrard getting better with every upcoming game, and with two or three top additions, one striker, one attacking midfielder and one winger, everything could be turned around pretty quickly.

But first, Kenny has to make up his mind on some of the players he keeps on trusting. Just as we hesitated too long with the sacking of Hodgson I fear we will wait too long to take the necessary short term top signings in order to secure this last little chance we have for making it 4th. Cause with a few more draws it will be gone.

[colden]

Don't see why we had to play 3 at the back just bacause Spearing & Lucas were out. We could have retained our normal formation by using either Aurelio or Coates as DM. They are both comfortable on the ball & can tackle well. This would release Gerrard, Henderson & Adam to play further forward, and that was where our major problem was yesterday. We missed the link between Gerrard and the CF. Whilst Henderson will develop in that role, he's nowhere near Gerrard at the moment, so the gap between Kuyt & the midfield was far too large.

It is a worry that we are having to rely on Jay as DM for the rest of the season. Don't get me wrong, he's a good player, but our style of play at the moment is to have a DM, thus allowing Gerrard / Adam / Hederson or whoever, to get forward & support the striker(s). If Jay is injured, or loses form, I think using any of the other 3 as DM takes something away from the team.

Ideally we should get a good DM on loan for the rest of the season (someone not currently in the Barca or RM teams who wants to prove something to their manager, or play himself into his national team for the Euros). We can dream I suppose 

[Fiasco]

Alot of people are saying the same thing, looking at the team sheet before the game I was resigned to the fact that in all probability it was going to end in a dull draw. It's not just a bit of bad luck or a blip anymore, it's a real problem that needs sorting out. It wasn't so much that the formation was wrong, it nulified the threat of Stoke as well as it could of. It's the quality of the players that were playing that was the problem.

Every attack was the same. Slow build up, a dozen or so passes, run up the wing, fanny about, whip in a half-arsed cross for it to be cleared and then go again. Occaisonally we would try a one-two at the edge of the box but Stoke were not moving and I don't quite think our players have realised yet that you cannot run through human beings. If we, as fans, know how predictable we are then it won't take much revision from the opposition manager or players to figure it out.

I don't know if Stoke were blunt in attack as a result of the formation or because they were just poor in general, I don't know. Skrtel dealt with Crouch superbly and Coates and Carra did well also. Reina had one save to make which was straight at him, so you could say the formation worked, however on reflection if we went four at the back we probably would of dealt with them just as well. Pulis did say though after the game he changed things once he seen our formation.

The lack of pace is a real concern for me. I said it yesterday and I'm suprised nobody laughed but even them lot over the park have two pacey wingers who run at defenders. They aren't fantastic at it but they will run at you and try and beat a man. We've not got that, the two fastest players in the side are Enrique and Johnson ( excluding Bellamy as he's not a regular to the extent that they are ). The full backs get up and down well but the movement in front of them is non-existent and they can only do so much.

Laboured build up, no movement from anybody, lack of ideas, lack of urgency. Sums us up for a decent chunk of the season really.

[Trada]

We weren't getting enough people into the box.

I can remember a few times we got behind their defense the player look up and there wasn't anyone in the box and had to hold the ball up and by the time someone had got into the box he had been closed down.

We had crosses going into the box and it was all Stoke players and if we were lucky 1 of our players may had made their way in.

Thats not good enough when you are playing a team like Stoke at home.

[Chakan]

We weren't getting enough people into the box.

I can remember a few times we got behind their defense the player look up and there wasn't anyone in the box and had to hold the ball up and by the time someone had got into the box he had been closed down.

We had crosses going into the box and it was all Stoke players and if we were lucky 1 of our players may had made their way in.

Thats not good enough when you are playing a team like Stoke at home.

Not good enough if you are playing any team to be honest. Watched Swansea today 2-3 people in the box constantly at home to Arsenal.  We play stoke at home are I can count the number of times we had more than 1 person in the box on one hand.

[stonty]

We are a team in transition but it is hard to see which path we are trying to take and that needs to change or else the season will be over before we know it.

Nail on head that

[Pacman.]

Oh, some complaints creeping in?

Knee jerkers.

Does this mean it's safe to speak your mind now?

K...

We need players with better technique and more ability if we want to open teams up.

It was the three center backs was it? Hmm... I Beg to differ.
 
Paragraph after paragraph from arguably the most anal fans in the game right now and really the bottom line is we didn't spend the money well. We got two players who are average to good and spent £60M in the process.

That much was clear from day one. Just that nobody could say it back then without being accused of sacrilege.

Does it mean we need to get someone in who can spend the money better? Develop better tactics? Maybe.

We'll get another chance to spend with these owners. We can't splurge it like we did the last.

[Garcepticon]

I think the main thing to come out of the Stoke game was that we desperately need to decide on a formation and a style of play. Once we have worked that out we can shape the squad to fit the formation and the style of play. At times we are changing formations and switching between getting crosses in and trying to pass and move from one minute to the next.

At times the players look completely lost, aren't sure where they are supposed to be playing and what we are trying to achieve. We should of been going into the game looking to exploit Stoke's weaknesses with a clear idea of how to do it. If we are going to look to get crosses in then we need to get Carroll on the pitch and get Gerrard and Downing into areas where they can get quality delivery into the box.

If we are going to play pass and move then we need to fill the team with pass and move players and call time on Carroll, Carra and Kuyt.

You watch the teams who we are competing with us for the Champions League places and it's pretty clear how they are trying to play that really isn't the case with us at the moment. We are a team in transition but it is hard to see which path we are trying to take and that needs to change or else the season will be over before we know it.

I couldn't agree more, I was talking to a mate and they said that we are a team in transition, and I responded that we didn't seem to be one at the back end of last season and this year we might be but I have no idea what our ideal is; and if you don't know where you want to be and how you want to play then you're not in transition - you're a team in stagnation. We aren't really a pass and move team because we're not playing one twos on the edge of the area, and though Gerrard loves those intricate bits of play - when Kuyt had to get involved he wasn't effective at the give and go. That meant that the give and go on the edge of the area was not an option. We didn't have an aerial threat and we weren't getting any crosses in, I had no idea how we were going to score yesterday.

Personally I think Carragher had a much better game than I expected, he was decent on the ball in one stand out moment for me and I think we shouldn't write him off completely because that assumes he can't make a transition and I believe he can.

I just wish Kenny had stuck to last years philosophy bought Juan Mata, who has great pass and move credentials, and then sacked off Downing and Adam because they can't play that football. Right now we're not playing an identifiable brand of football. Remember the game against I think Exeter and possibly Brighton when we played pass and move, they were great games to watch and we looked dangerous. I think Henderson was meant to be Meireles' replacement - he has a good pass and first touch - but he lacks the confidence.

[Pacman.]

Not good enough if you are playing any team to be honest. Watched Swansea today 2-3 people in the box constantly at home to Arsenal.

You watched a different game. They didn't beat Arsenal by numbers and they hardly crossed the ball into the box. They don't play that way.

What they had was players up front with touch, footwork and movement that Dirk Kuyt and Andy Carroll don't have. Without Suarez we don't have a striker and we have no threat from the wings. As an attacking team we're pretty much impotent half the time. It's a shame because with this mentality and some players of real skill, we could do good things.

[Chakan]

You watched a different game. They didn't beat Arsenal by numbers and they hardly crossed the ball into the box. They don't play that way.

What they had was players up front with touch, footwork and movement that Dirk Kuyt and Andy Carroll don't have. Without Suarez we don't have a striker and we have no threat from the wings. As an attacking team we're pretty much impotent half the time. It's a shame because with this mentality and some players of real skill, we could do good things.

I didn't say they crossed the ball into the box, I said when they attacked they had 2 or 3 people in the box.

[Pacman.]

I don't think the number of players they had in the box was relevant. That's what I meant. They played with men on the shoulder, not in the box. We could easily play with the same number of people getting into the box and create better clearer chances if we had better players in the right positions.

Getting men into the box won't solve anything and will make us defensively weaker given that our defensive tactics now revolve around getting everyone behind the ball.

[Chakan]

I don't think the number of players they had in the box was relevant. That's what I meant. They played with men on the shoulder, not in the box.

It is relevant, more people in the box more chance of someone getting on the end of it. Playing through a team or playing around a team.
We didn't do either.

[Eeyore]

We weren't getting enough people into the box.

I can remember a few times we got behind their defense the player look up and there wasn't anyone in the box and had to hold the ball up and by the time someone had got into the box he had been closed down.

We had crosses going into the box and it was all Stoke players and if we were lucky 1 of our players may had made their way in.

Thats not good enough when you are playing a team like Stoke at home.

It's strange isn't the biggest difference last season when Kenny took over was that we started getting more men into the box. the highlight was Fulham away last season when Lucas and Spearing held and Maxi, Suarez, kuyt and Meireles were given license to interchange and to get into the box with 3 of the 4 of them scoring.

This season the likes of Downing and Henderson are more interested in putting the ball into the area than getting in there themselves.