Topic: The barbarity that is Syria

[jerseyhoya]

Meanwhile, Mccain visits (illegally) the rebels.

Why is McCain visiting the Syrian rebels illegal?

[Noelle]

Why is McCain visiting the Syrian rebels illegal?

Maybe because he seems to have slipped across the border illegally instead of going through the proper channels to enter the country?

[jerseyhoya]

He should've gotten clearance from Assad?

[Noelle]

Well obviously that's a bit ridiculous and unrealistic but it doesn't make what he did not illegal.

[Yorkykopite]

Well obviously that's a bit ridiculous and unrealistic but it doesn't make what he did not illegal.

Why has he acted illegally?

[Henry Gale]

So if I'm reading all this correct the arms embargo has been lifted so we could start to arm the rebels fighting in Syria?

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

No oil. No Americans. No news.

Simplistic talk for simple folk. 

Plenty of oil in Afghanistan I presume.  And Haiti.  And Somalia.  And Kosovo.  And Colombia.

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

Maybe because he seems to have slipped across the border illegally instead of going through the proper channels to enter the country?

The precise legality becomes very murky because so many countries now recognise the SNC as a legitimate representative of the Syrian people.  If a country recognises a group then I presume it is not illegal to use their channels to enter and exit the country.

[Yorkykopite]

Simplistic talk for simple folk. 

Plenty of oil in Afghanistan I presume.  And Haiti.  And Somalia.  And Kosovo.  And Colombia.

No oil in Iran though otherwise they'd definitely have invaded Iran by now.

Plenty in Israel of course which is why the Americans keep it propped up.

[sms1986]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-22688894

Russia is going to send arms to the Syrian government.

[GBF]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-22688894

Russia is going to send arms to the Syrian government.

cold war redux

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

Interesting isn't it, people moaning at the West for doing nothing, comparing Syria to Rwanda while conveniently ignoring the fact that it is Russia that is routinely blocking UN resolutions on the matter. 

The Russian AA missiles are clearly meant to deter any non-UN sanctioned air intervention by France, ourselves or the US. 

What is happening in Syria is appalling but lets not pretend that there are simple solutions that the west are simply ignoring because there is no oil. 

[GBF]

Interesting isn't it, people moaning at the West for doing nothing, comparing Syria to Rwanda while conveniently ignoring the fact that it is Russia that is routinely blocking UN resolutions on the matter. 

The Russian AA missiles are clearly meant to deter any non-UN sanctioned air intervention by France, ourselves or the US. 

What is happening in Syria is appalling but lets not pretend that there are simple solutions that the west are simply ignoring because there is no oil. 

they have modest quantity of oil but still enough to be sold to most of Europe.  I think at the moment, the rebels are extracting/selling the oil in a very dangerous manner in order to get arms/money

[Yorkykopite]

What is happening in Syria is appalling but lets not pretend that there are simple solutions that the west are simply ignoring because there is no oil. 

We are wrong, even evil, whatever we do - according to a particular mind-set in this country. When we intervene we are damned. When we don't intervene we are damned.

Meanwhile the demonstrably immoral and self-interested behaviour of Russia and China - both states with long glorious histories of domestic and foreign repression - goes uncommented upon.

And Assad? His elite troops enter Syrian towns and systematically massacre and disfigure men, women and children in their homes.  http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-22684359

But let's spend our fury on John McCain instead.

[bigbonedrawky]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-22688894

Russia is going to send arms to the Syrian government.

They are arming the Devil they know...We are arming the Devil we dont know...
I wonder who will win possesion of all those Chemical Weapons and Nerve agents ?
Will these Chemical weapons find there way across borders ?

[AA1122]

We are wrong, even evil, whatever we do - according to a particular mind-set in this country. When we intervene we are damned. When we don't intervene we are damned.

(Of course all the blame lies with the USA and Israel really) 

You are the person who keeps suggesting people blame Israel and the US. You clearly have created a persona and stereotype for people’s views before you have heard their argument. Despite the fact that I never even presented an argument. I just highlighted some recent events.

My personal view is that there are too many problems with arming the rebels. Can we be sure the ‘good’ FSA rebels will keep the weapons and that they will not go into the hands of Islamist extremist groups? Unless we have certainty, I do not think we should arm them. Arming the rebels will only make Russia and Iran increase their arming of Assad’s forces (as we have seen). Will Syria be a better place after Assad has gone? It can’t get any worse I guess.

Rather than ‘playing up’ the conflict by increasing the weapons supply of the rebels, we should be taking a strategy trying to play it down where we have influence. Trying to reduce supply where possible, pressuring Russia, Iran, Saudi Arabia and all the other countries to remove the influences they have from Syria. Get as many foreign fighters out (on both sides). Stop weapons supply. Increase humanitarian aid.

I know the counter to my arguments is that we have tried this and it is not effective or realistic. But, I just don’t see how arming the rebels will make the situation any better at all. It is only going to escalate this conflict further. Surely anyone can see that. This has the potential to escalate a hell of a lot, the last thing we need to do is throw petrol onto the fire.

Allāhu Akbar!!

[Libertine]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-22688894

Russia is going to send arms to the Syrian government.

Israeli Defence Minister Moshe Yaalon said the Russian missile systems had not yet left Russia.
"I hope they will not leave, and if, God forbid, they reach Syria, we will know what to do," he said.


Looks like that's going to be a waste of money for the Russians/Syrians...

[Red Beret]

At the end of the day intervention - if it was going to happen - should have happened at least a year ago.  Before the opposition was flooded with extremist fighters and Russia decided to start giving the regime new toys.

[Cruiser]

Looks like that's going to be a waste of money for the Russians/Syrians...

Hope so. Would be hugely embarrassing for the Russians and Syrians if the Israelis took them out (which they will).

[planet-terror]

Sad Images of Mothers and children butchered on the news just now,,
This World...............................................................

[rawcusk8]

Sad Images of Mothers and children butchered on the news just now,,
This World...............................................................

Just saw that myself mate and im speechless. What can drive people to do such things? Women, children, babies.. Humanity is fucked up big time.. Help for them cant arrive soon enough.

[Seebab]

Interesting isn't it, people moaning at the West for doing nothing, comparing Syria to Rwanda while conveniently ignoring the fact that it is Russia that is routinely blocking UN resolutions on the matter. 

The Russian AA missiles are clearly meant to deter any non-UN sanctioned air intervention by France, ourselves or the US. 

What is happening in Syria is appalling but lets not pretend that there are simple solutions that the west are simply ignoring because there is no oil. 

The cold hard fact is lots of people are dying meaninglessly. We should have been doing everything to stop it. What the Russians (or should I say Putin) are (is) doing is embarrassing and completely disruptive and I feel for the poor Syrians.

Who knows what will happen now? Whatever it is, I have a feeling it won't be good.

This feels like a slight glimpse back in the past. Next, we will be boycotting the Winter Olympics, which ironically are in Russia next year.

[Baraka]

Simplistic talk for simple folk. 

Plenty of oil in Afghanistan I presume.  And Haiti.  And Somalia.  And Kosovo.  And Colombia.

Afghanistan has plenty of lithium, other raw materials and 90% of the worlds heroin comes from there though.

[Yorkykopite]

You are the person who keeps suggesting people blame Israel and the US. You clearly have created a persona and stereotype for people’s views before you have heard their argument. Despite the fact that I never even presented an argument. I just highlighted some recent events.

Sorry, I didn't read your post. To be honest I wasn't even aware of it. I certainly never referred to it when I made my argument.

I was talking more generally about an attitude I see in certain sections - not all - of the left in this country. The Guardian is a good example. Check out Seamus Milne or Simon Jenkins, both of whom wrote columns today. Or Glenn Greenwald's bizarre Guardian column on the Woolwich atrocity a few days ago.

All three of them blame the British and American governments for jihadist violence and suicide attacks - whether they happen in the UK, Syria, Pakistan, Afganistan or Iraq. They always do.  Milne even suggests that our government now wants to arm Sunni jihadists in Syria (despite the fact that such a thing, should it ever happen, would surely put us on the right side of the Woolwich murderers who hate us, at the moment, for supporting secularists and democrats in the Middle East).

[Yorkykopite]

Afghanistan has plenty of lithium, other raw materials and 90% of the worlds heroin comes from there though.

How's the lithium extraction - production? - doing at the moment?

[Baraka]

How's the lithium extraction - production? - doing at the moment?

not happening now, but will in the future. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/14/world/asia/14minerals.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

[AA1122]

Zaid Benjamin ‏@zaidbenjamin 6m
Confirmed: Jabhat al-Nusra says "Syrians living" in #Hezbollah #Beirut's southern suburb should leave. Operations launching there in 3 days
Retweeted by Pieter Van Ostaeyen

If Hizbollah were not there, then I guess this would not have happened.  Either way, not looking good at all.

[Yorkykopite]

not happening now, but will in the future. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/14/world/asia/14minerals.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Well that's great news. Afghanistan may one day not be so dependent for its foreign currency on the wretched poppy.

But lithium reserves as a cause for the US invasion? How could they be? According to the report you posted no one had any idea the stuff was there until 2010!

[rusty-la]

Interesting isn't it, people moaning at the West for doing nothing, comparing Syria to Rwanda while conveniently ignoring the fact that it is Russia that is routinely blocking UN resolutions on the matter. 

Like all conflicts, this is unique.  The details of the human misery will follow in years to come.

I compared this to Rwanda in the context of a supine UN intervention. 

This conflict shares similarity in only one thing. We dont care and will allow it to continue.

No Oil = No intervention.

You can debate the broader context all you like,  but the facts remain the same.

[Yorkykopite]

Read Zbigniew Brzezinski's 1996 book "the Grand Chessboard" for the geopolitical logic underlying the US invasion of Afghanistan. Its not about the resources Afghanistan has, its about were its located.

Ah, so it's not what's under its sand. It's where the sand is. And on we go....

[rusty-la]

Read Zbigniew Brzezinski's 1996 book "the Grand Chessboard" for the geopolitical logic underlying the US invasion of Afghanistan. Its not about the resources Afghanistan has, its about were its located.

Really?. You really believe that?

[Yorkykopite]

Like all conflicts, this is unique.  The details of the human misery will follow in years to come.

I compared this to Rwanda in the context of a supine UN intervention. 

This conflict shares similarity in only one thing. We dont care and will allow it to continue.

No Oil = No intervention.

You can debate the broader context all you like,  but the facts remain the same.

Your last sentence is patently untrue. But, I am interested Rusty. You clearly support intervention in Syria. How do you think it should be done?

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

Afghanistan has plenty of lithium, other raw materials and 90% of the worlds heroin comes from there though.

Given that we are looking at possible nefarious motives for the invasion them I don't think we can claim previously unsuspected mineral deposits as a motive.

[armchair-fan]

Read Zbigniew Brzezinski's 1996 book "the Grand Chessboard" for the geopolitical logic underlying the US invasion of Afghanistan. Its not about the resources Afghanistan has, its about were its located.

He was a good player for Juve in the early 80s, but I'm not sure I want to know his views on the geopolitical significance of Afghanistan.

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

Read Zbigniew Brzezinski's 1996 book "the Grand Chessboard" for the geopolitical logic underlying the US invasion of Afghanistan. Its not about the resources Afghanistan has, its about were its located.

If the US invaded every country in the regions highlighted as strategic by some postwar policy gonk or other then there would nowhere left uninvaded. It also does not explain why the US are blindly following a policy designed to prevent the rise of a Eurasian superpower when the horse has long since bolted.

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

He was a good player for Juve in the early 80s, but I'm not sure I want to know his views on the geopolitical significance of Afghanistan.

He was bloody brilliant in international footy top trumps too

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

Yeah he's a genius. His policy in Afghanistan post 1979 has been a resounding success for Afghanistan, the US and the world.

[Yorkykopite]

Well, he succeeded in his intentions, destroying the Sovjet Union.

Yes, it was going along fine until that self-regarding tit got to work.

Zibby Brezzy has been spinning this line to anyone gullible enough to listen for years. It goes like this. America in the late 1970s had to make a simple choice. The mighty Soviet Union spreading its evil gospel of marxism-leninism around the globe or a few harmless Muslim Jihadists who lived in caves on the Afpak border. Zibby chose the jihadists. He then argues that the mighty Soviet Union collapsed as a result of his inspired choice.

It's bullshit of course (as virtually everything that Zibby (and Jimmy Carter) did was bullshit. The Soviet Union was not mighty in 1979. It was a basket case with an economy that was actually contracting. Its colonies in eastern Europe were increasingly restive and resentful (and, in Poland at least, were about to become rebellious). Its gospel of marxism-leninism was a busted flush capable of inspiring no one outside its own borders (and very few within them). The whole 1917 project was dying. 

Zibby's foreign policy didn't bring the USSR down. But it certainly contributed to the growth of Jihadism. Well done Zibby.
 

[rusty-la]

Your last sentence is patently untrue. But, I am interested Rusty. You clearly support intervention in Syria. How do you think it should be done?

Don't know Yorky. I was responding to an earlier comment. However, I do believe in intervention, if only to stop the mass slaughter. 

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

I agree completely Yorky. First time for everything eh 

So you think he is both "one of the finer 20th century strategists" and a self-regarding bullshitter who generally created much of the problem in today's Afghanistan through his short sighted policies in 1979?