Topic: The Labour Party (*)

[Lush is the best medicine...]

McDonnell thinks anyone on £70k a year is 'rich'

Good luck seeing that fly in London Johnnie

[oldfordie]

The connection is crystal clear and highly relevant. He for reasons still best known to him (and of course to Bush) pissed all over all of the decent positive stuff that they delivered by gung-ho waging an unjustified and indefensible war to topple Sadam Hussein.
Logic and decency says you can't simply pick and choose and reflect fondly on only the good bits of his time in office.  It's not defendable at all in one and the same breath to state that the Iraq war had no impact on us as our living standards improved.

The facts are that our military were sent there on Tony Blair's alleged "WMD" hunt - and 179 of them never came back to their families. Try telling those families it was a minor negative blip in the great political scheme of things and that they would do well to remember Blair improved our living standards.

Yes, that's your opinion on his handling of Iraq, does that justify people saying they cant tell the difference between the Tory party and the Labour party when it comes to looking after the sick and the poor or the economy.
People are entitled to say they dont care how much good he did at home as his actions on Iraq shames him.
They are not entitled to say his actions on Iraq were shameful and he was just as bad as the Torys when it comes to looking after the poor and the sick etc.

[SP]

The connection is crystal clear and highly relevant. He for reasons still best known to him (and of course to Bush) pissed all over all of the decent positive stuff that they delivered by gung-ho waging an unjustified and indefensible war to topple Sadam Hussein.
Logic and decency says you can't simply pick and choose and reflect fondly on only the good bits of his time in office.  It's not defendable at all in one and the same breath to state that the Iraq war had no impact on us as our living standards improved.

The facts are that our military were sent there on Tony Blair's alleged "WMD" hunt - and 179 of them never came back to their families. Try telling those families it was a minor negative blip in the great political scheme of things and that they would do well to remember Blair improved our living standards.

Labour are campaigning to form a government. You can say we would never "do an Iraq", but we would build on all of this good stuff that we did last time, compare that with the damage the Tories are doing.

The Tories still hark back to some of Thatcher's policies without feeling the need to get hung up on the poll tax.

Your inability to separate the governance of the country for 13 years from a single disastrous issue is not ubiquitous. Blair may be tarnished, but the Labour domestic record in  government should be the foundation of the vision being sold to the electorate.

[ShakaHislop]

The Hartlepool MP is off too.

https://twitter.com/IainWrightMP/status/854605818175660032

[filopastry]

McDonnell thinks anyone on £70k a year is 'rich'

Good luck seeing that fly in London Johnnie

Indeed.. Upper earners on PAYE are already taxed pretty heavily in any case, nor are they generally the tax avoiders that everyone gets excited about.

Of course it may just be a case at looking at areas like tax treatment of pension contributions which even the Tories have been sniffing around for a while.

[Libertine]

The Hartlepool MP is off too.

https://twitter.com/IainWrightMP/status/854605818175660032

And Andrew Smith in Oxford East: https://twitter.com/AndrewSmithMP/status/854651067971375105

Good Lib Dem target I'd say.....

[classycarra]

And Andrew Smith in Oxford East: https://twitter.com/AndrewSmithMP/status/854651067971375105

Good Lib Dem target I'd say.....

And Tory. Worry they'll get in after Smith's loyal supporters split between Labour and LD. Hopefully pessimistic. There aren't many Kippers there luckily, to bolster the Tories' 20%

End of an era anyway. First person I ever voted for as an 18 year old

[SP]

And Tory. Worry they'll get in after Smith's loyal supporters split between Labour and LD

You think there will be more movement of LD to Lab than Lab to LD? Can't see it. 2015 is a low point for the Lib Dems, even without the internal Labour issues, you would expect their vote to recover. Throw in that Oxford is almost certainly remain territory, have not looked it up, but the university cities tended to be remain. Add in the Labour voters disillusioned with Corbyn, I just can't see the Lib Dem vote shrinking. 

[JohnnoWhite]

Labour are campaigning to form a government. You can say we would never "do an Iraq", but we would build on all of this good stuff that we did last time, compare that with the damage the Tories are doing.

The Tories still hark back to some of Thatcher's policies without feeling the need to get hung up on the poll tax.

Your inability to separate the governance of the country for 13 years from a single disastrous issue is not ubiquitous. Blair may be tarnished, but the Labour domestic record in  government should be the foundation of the vision being sold to the electorate.

I do take and support your positive point re asserting Labour could say openly "we would not do an Iraq but we'd build on the achievements delivered under the 13 years of the last 3 Labour governments - and compare that with what this Tory government has imposed and is continuing to impose on our country."

I never claimed my view to be ubiquitous. But I say and will always say that whenever a view is expressed by whoever which implies there's no impact on us here (following our PM's determination that he will play a lead role in invading another sovereign country,) then a horrendous decision such as that cannot ever be consigned to the sidelines and dismissed with " ah yes that was a little bit naughty but on the other hand, look at all the good he did", that is completely unacceptable. Not only to me but to a great many more.

[classycarra]

You think there will be more movement of LD to Lab than Lab to LD? Can't see it. 2015 is a low point for the Lib Dems, even without the internal Labour issues, you would expect their vote to recover. Throw in that Oxford is almost certainly remain territory, have not looked it up, but the university cities tended to be remain. Add in the Labour voters disillusioned with Corbyn, I just can't see the Lib Dem vote shrinking. 

Andrew Smith is Labour.

I totally agree with you, I can't see the Lib Dem vote shrinking either after their 2015 nadir. I personally think the bolded bit goes the other way around. As you predicted, can confirm it was a remain constituency.

Only positive is Cons haven't had more than 20% share since 1997 (and that was only 22%), so even after fractured Labour support one of them or the LDs should stay in. I was being pessimistic to avoid yet more disappointment

[SP]

I do take and support your positive point re asserting Labour could say openly "we would not do an Iraq but we'd build on the achievements delivered under the 13 years of the last 3 Labour governments - and compare that with what this Tory government has imposed and is continuing to impose on our country."

I never claimed my view to be ubiquitous. But I say and will always say that whenever a view is expressed by whoever which implies there's no impact on us here (following our PM's determination that he will play a lead role in invading another sovereign country,) then a horrendous decision such as that cannot ever be consigned to the sidelines and dismissed with " ah yes that was a little bit naughty but on the other hand, look at all the good he did", that is completely unacceptable. Not only to me but to a great many more.

But the distinction between promoting Blair and promoting the Party is being lost. Blair can give very well paid speeches and sign book deals if he wants to protect his personal legacy. But he is irrelevant to a Westminster election. He has been gone a decade.

I doubt any Labour Leader will invade any other country without full unambiguous UN support, and it is doubtful even then. That lesson has been learnt.

[Zeb]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/19/greens-urge-labour-and-lib-dems-to-form-electoral-pact-to-defeat-tories

The scenario that pegs back the Tories is probably not on the cards. Corbyn cannot carry his own party, let alone someone else's.

It also relies on 2015 voting? 30 seats flipped and Labour could look to form a coalition on that basis. Would be interesting to see it re-done for Labour's current polling which has 3 million fewer voters.

I know Lisa Nandy has been proactive in reaching out to other parties and discussing things for the future. Perhaps in five years' time it will be a more obvious decision.

[SP]

Andrew Smith is Labour.

I totally agree with you, I can't see the Lib Dem vote shrinking either after their 2015 nadir. I personally think the bolded bit goes the other way around. As you predicted, can confirm it was a remain constituency.

Only positive is Cons haven't had more than 20% share since 1997 (and that was only 22%), so even after fractured Labour support one of them or the LDs should stay in. I was being pessimistic to avoid yet more disappointment

Excuse me, I am talking bollocks. Oxford East is Labour with 50% of the vote and a 30% majority. If Labour lose that seat, they are truly fucked. It is the 99th safest seat. No one is dreaming of anything that catastrophic.

[Libertine]

Excuse me, I am talking bollocks. Oxford East is Labour with 50% of the vote and a 30% majority. If Labour lose that seat, they are truly fucked. It is the 99th safest seat. No one is dreaming of anything that catastrophic.

Perhaps, but this indicates the danger of looking too closely at the 2015 result. The majority in 2010 was 9% (4,500 votes) over the Lib Dems not the Tories.

Given it's a big remain area, the loss of a (I presume) well respected local MP, and what I imagine is Corbyn's standing in such a constituency, it's not out of bounds that the seat could be in danger. A long shot maybe, but I think it will be at least competitive.

[classycarra]

I agree, I fear it will be competitive. Just, please, not with the Tories!

[zebenzui]

McDonnell thinks anyone on £70k a year is 'rich'

Good luck seeing that fly in London Johnnie

I earn less than a sixth of that. A quarter of that after tax. Pretty damn rich to me.

[TravisBickle]

 We all know we're going to get absolutely trounced. The question is what happens afterwards. I don't imagine Corbyn will step down willingly without knowing another SWP type is there to take his place but I sincerely hope sensible MPs are doing everything they can to formulate a plan for regaining control of the party.

 I would absolutely revel in watching the left of the party get obliterated. Fucking revel in it.

[classycarra]

I earn less than a sixth of that. A quarter of that after tax. Pretty damn rich to me.

Seems a very divisive and punitive way to start the election campaign from McDonnell - it's almost like he has contempt for people who earn as much as him

[zero zero]

Can anybody explain why Labour would want to have an early election?

Apart from making the Labour party "purer" and a whole lot smaller, what do Labour have to gain? What's the short/medium/long-term strategy here? I'm not seeing it.

[filopastry]

Can anybody explain why Labour would want to have an early election?

Apart from making the Labour party "purer" and a whole lot smaller, what do Labour have to gain? What's the short/medium/long-term strategy here? I'm not seeing it.

If you are in opposition and don't want an election to try to get into power, you are basically publicly admitting you are an unelectable mess

[filopastry]

We all know we're going to get absolutely trounced. The question is what happens afterwards. I don't imagine Corbyn will step down willingly without knowing another SWP type is there to take his place but I sincerely hope sensible MPs are doing everything they can to formulate a plan for regaining control of the party.

 I would absolutely revel in watching the left of the party get obliterated. Fucking revel in it.

If Labour lose badly and Corbyn still won't step down, I suspect its another leadership challenge, if Corbyn wins again I think it would then be almost inevitable that the party splits.

[Banquo's Ghost]

Can anybody explain why Labour would want to have an early election?

Apart from making the Labour party "purer" and a whole lot smaller, what do Labour have to gain? What's the short/medium/long-term strategy here? I'm not seeing it.

It's not easy to discern a strategy. There is a sensible route to rejecting the motion to dissolve parliament on the basis that the Fixed term Act was brought in specifically to prevent opportunistic electoral grabs like May's. And it was implemented by the Tory Coalition.

Labour seems to be taking the same view as on Brexit, which is derived from a fear of going against this 'will of the people' thing. Going along with the Tories is an odd strategy especially when it allows the Tories to annihilate the Labour party. In addition, I think there would be some kudos from the electorate from opposing the motion, since most people seem to be sick and tired of elections, and forcing May to adhere to her previous declarations on the above basis might actually be popular. It would certainly be consistent, and force the Tories to look rather stupid.

But no, let's all file into the lobbies side by side with the bastards once again, to our doom.

[JohnnoWhite]

We all know we're going to get absolutely trounced. The question is what happens afterwards. I don't imagine Corbyn will step down willingly without knowing another SWP type is there to take his place but I sincerely hope sensible MPs are doing everything they can to formulate a plan for regaining control of the party.

 I would absolutely revel in watching the left of the party get obliterated. Fucking revel in it.

Odd comments from a member of a democratic socialist party.  I am assuming you ARE a current Labour party member so is this correct?
 
If you truly feel like that, why don't you leave those lefties behind and seek to join the Lib-Dems ? Their political position - usually neither fish nor fowl - seems already more closely aligned with where you wish my party (i.e. the Labour Party) to be.

[Alan_X]

Seems a very divisive and punitive way to start the election campaign from McDonnell - it's almost like he has contempt for people who earn as much as less than him

Corrected for you.

[ShakaHislop]

It's a shame a leadership challenge wasn't made after the Article 50 and Copeland events. For all we know, Corbyn might be in a position where he'd lose a leadership challenge already so Labour are going to go over the top in the GE unnecessarily.

If Labour do feel obliged to fight the election, it would be good if they would make conditional demands on the PM for example only agreeing to another GE if she promises another EU referendum, or a "meaningful vote" in Parliament.

[JohnnoWhite]

Interested why you're back in here with the two faced twats

Oh I just called in, you know how it goes, to see if some of them are still hanging around and promoting the same old - same old from weeks ago. My conclusion? Not a lot has changed I'll readily concede but I continue to live with hope eternal.

[TepidT2O]

Cooper spoke well today.

An opportunity missed..

[filopastry]

Cooper spoke well today.

An opportunity missed..

Don't blame me, I voted for her!

[Alan_X]

One of the saddest things I saw was a tweet saying that she could have been leader if she hadn't abstained in the Welfare debate. What a ridiculous state of affairs that an accomplished and decent politician like Cooper is unelectable by the membership because of a meaningless tactical vote while our leader is supported by the same members despite imposing a three-line whip in favour of the most disastrous vote in recent political history.

[Kashinoda]

Labour seems to be taking the same view as on Brexit, which is derived from a fear of going against this 'will of the people' thing.

Either way you pander to roughly 50% of the electorate, but it's bizarre how scared Labour seems to be.

[Banquo's Ghost]

Either way you pander to roughly 50% of the electorate, but it's bizarre how scared Labour seems to be.

Indeed. What bemuses me is that there's a strategy built around representing that 48% who wanted to remain, add the main core of your existing support and then spend some time in a passionate argument to convince some of the 52% that they might have been wrong to assume £350m per week would be spent in the NHS after Brexit.

It might not have swayed enough, but it wouldn't be oblivion in the election.

[TravisBickle]

Odd comments from a member of a democratic socialist party.  I am assuming you ARE a current Labour party member so is this correct?
 
If you truly feel like that, why don't you leave those lefties behind and seek to join the Lib-Dems ? Their political position - usually neither fish nor fowl - seems already more closely aligned with where you wish my party (i.e. the Labour Party) to be.

 I don't think my comments are odd at all. I've watched the party I was a member of since I was 16 get hijacked by extremists, I've been consistently called a Tory by people who have undermined Labour their entire lives and worst of all, had to watch it become a total irrelevance to the national political scene. All for what? For the most leftward 1% of the country to prove how fucking righteous they are.

 Corbyn is an embarrassment. He and his acolytes have probably ruined any chance of a leftist government in this country for a generation. He has approved the most ruinous right wing project Britain has seen since the end of the war. He can fuck off.

[Danny55]

We all know we're going to get absolutely trounced. The question is what happens afterwards. I don't imagine Corbyn will step down willingly without knowing another SWP type is there to take his place but I sincerely hope sensible MPs are doing everything they can to formulate a plan for regaining control of the party.

 I would absolutely revel in watching the left of the party get obliterated. Fucking revel in it.

Yeah, it's going to be brilliant to watch budgets in my school get slashed and more children come through the doors in poverty... What a 5 years hey.

[TepidT2O]

Anyway, on slightly even more depressing news, labour's polling now is almost certainly going to be overstating their final support.



Happy days

[Danny55]

Anyway, on slightly even more depressing news, labour's polling now is almost certainly going to be overstating their final support.



Happy days

Forget shy Tories, it's shy Corbyn supporters at this election 

[TravisBickle]

Yeah, it's going to be brilliant to watch budgets in my school get slashed and more children come through the doors in poverty... What a 5 years hey.

 That's why I'll revel in watching the people responsible for Labour's destruction get their comeuppance. That's what this has always been about for me, you see - the belief that Labour governments are infinitely better than any Tory one. It's a shame the people who hijacked the party didn't share that belief, ay.

[Danny55]

That's why I'll revel in watching the people responsible for Labour's destruction get their comeuppance. That's what this has always been about for me, you see - the belief that Labour governments are infinitely better than any Tory one. It's a shame the people who hijacked the party didn't share that belief, ay.

Well, I'll be banging on doors and doing everything I can to prevent a Tory landslide anyway. At least you got one over on the left though. And then in five years time when we come storming back with the same Social Democratic policies that have been rejected by voters across the western world we can repeat the cycle once more.

I take the approach that any Labour government is better than a ravenous right wing Tory one as well, I would just never take any pleasure in seeing us decimated.

[TravisBickle]

Well, I'll be banging on doors and doing everything I can to prevent a Tory landslide anyway. At least you got one over on the left though. And then in five years time when we come storming back with the same Social Democratic policies that have been rejected by voters across the western world we can repeat the cycle once more.

I take the approach that any Labour government is better than a ravenous right wing Tory one as well, I would just never take any pleasure in seeing us decimated.

 I will take no pleasure in seeing Labour beaten, believe me. I won't shed any tears like I did in 2015 as this is fully expected but maybe, just maybe, the people who gave us this farce of a leader will start to get it when they see what their man has done. I doubt it. But I can still hope.

[cdav]

Anyway, on slightly even more depressing news, labour's polling now is almost certainly going to be overstating their final support.



Happy days

Are Tories shy any more?  It doesn't seem so as I think Ukip have taken that angle away- will all the previous votes who voted UKIP and out now go back to not voting?

[SP]

With the Labour support so low, it may be getting towards bare bones where there is little soft support left to fall away.

The Tories have such a lead, there is likely to be a lower turnout of their polled support as many can't be arsed as they are going to win anyway.