Poll

What are your views on Kier Starmer's leadership of the Labour party to date?

Excellent
5 (1.9%)
Good
33 (12.7%)
Average
88 (34%)
Poor
46 (17.8%)
Awful
69 (26.6%)
Too early to say
18 (6.9%)

Total Members Voted: 259

Author Topic: Keir Starmer: your views?  (Read 90110 times)

Offline Jiminy Cricket

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #840 on: September 24, 2021, 10:58:10 am »
It's insulting to boil it down to suggest we use nationalism to freely whip up fear. It's insulting to suggest we create division. That is not what the SNP is about. (To be clear I am not an SNP member as I have said before. My politics sit somewhere between the SNP,  the Scottish Greens and Labour).  It's insulting, and frankly childish to try and trivially try and suggest that the Scottish independence supporters are the exact same as all the worst nationalist movements. It fundamentally isn't (of course with any movement there are fringe elements).

The core indy movement is progressive, pro-immigration (unlike Labour a lot of the time), unequivocally pro-EU (unlike Labour a lot of the time) and outward looking.
There are always dangers involved with any kind of nationalism. But I have little fear about the direction of Scotland - it is not Hungary. You all (well, the firm majority of you, at least) just seem thoroughly tired of being perpetually governed by a totally unrepresentative (London) Government. If I was Scottish, I'd probably take the view that the Scottish Parliament - as constituted - does not offer enough independence.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2021, 12:04:16 pm by Jiminy Cricket »
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Offline Sangria

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #841 on: September 24, 2021, 11:00:34 am »
A proper, federal system, is what I think is needed for the UK to survive. Not that I expect it to happen. There are huge historical reasons for the four nations to remain within some kind of Union. But only for so long as the inhabitants of each country wish to remain.

A federal system, for example, would allow for things like Nuclear Subs to remain within the UK. It is an odd state of affairs when there is talk of the France or the US as alternative locations.

There should be certain constitutional rights for the nations that cannot be overridden by the UK except by, at least, a majority vote by the nations, where each nation counts as one vote. Go by population, and England will dominate the rest. Go by representation based on population, and England will dominate the rest. England needs to count as much as each of the other three, and no more. If England wants to do something without having to bear the others in mind, the action and effects need to be devolved. The UK should not be England and misc.
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Offline Elmo!

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #842 on: September 24, 2021, 11:02:48 am »
A proper, federal system, is what I think is needed for the UK to survive. Not that I expect it to happen. There are huge historical reasons for the four nations to remain within some kind of Union. But only for so long as the inhabitants of each country wish to remain.

A federal system, for example, would allow for things like Nuclear Subs to remain within the UK. It is an odd state of affairs when there is talk of the France or the US as alternative locations.

The problem with a federal system is that in order for it to work, and not have the same issues the current devolution system has, is that England would have to be broken up into chunks, and I don't think there is any appetite for that. And no party is seriously proposing it. Even the Lib Dems tend to briefly mention it in passing but it's never really pushed.

Offline Zeb

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #843 on: September 24, 2021, 11:32:48 am »
Yeah, Labour always ends up much more narrowly focused on 'local' although regional assemblies and all that were a thing which made it to serious consideration in the 90s and 00s in government. The London Assembly is the only one which survived opposition and ended up being implemented.

---

Outlines of housing policy being leaked ahead of time. It's all much as it was in general theme.

Quote
Lucy Powell is expected to use a speech on Sunday at the party’s annual conference to unveil plans to slash the cost of ‘affordable rents’ by fixing them at a rate of 30% of local incomes in a major housing policy announcement.

Commenting this morning on the announcement, which will also see her reveal that the number of properties in a development that can be sold to overseas buyers would be restricted to 50%, she described Labour as “the party of homeownership”.

The Shadow Housing Secretary will use her conference speech to explain that the opposition party would, in government, give first-time home buyers exclusive rights to purchase new-build properties for a period of six months.

“It is harder than ever to get a foot on the property ladder. Labour will make the dream of owning a home a reality for every grafting Brit – no matter where they live,” she said today.

“Labour is the party of homeownership, the Tories are the party of speculators and developers,” Powell added. “They treat housing as a commodity, not the bedrock of stable lives and life chances.”

She is also expected to outline how Labour plans to give local authorities powers to force landowners to sell vacant sites in order to build new housing at lower prices than the current compulsory purchase system allows.

Powell will say that the link between work and affordable housing is broken for too many renters and first-time buyers and that by cutting the cost of affordable rents people will be able to save more to get on the housing ladder.

The current definition of affordable rent, defined nationally by the government, is anything up to 80% of the market rate. Labour pledged in its 2019 general election manifesto to scrap this definition and link affordability to local incomes.

“Labour will focus on affordable, secure, safe housing. We’d make sure first-time buyers get first dibs on new homes, not investors. And we’d give councils the power to deliver housing their communities need – not what makes developers most profit,” shadow housing minister Mike Amesbury tweeted this morning.

The opposition party has repeatedly criticised the government for failing to tackle the housing crisis, and described plans announced by ministers last year to overhaul the planning system as a “developers’ charter”.

The government is also facing rowing pressure over the planning reforms from Conservative backbenchers, which increased significantly after their Chesham and Amersham by-election defeat to the Lib Dems in June.

Labour brought forward and urged Tory backbenchers to back “use-it-or-lose-it” legislation, aimed at speeding up housebuilding and protecting the right of local communities to have a say over planning applications, earlier this year.

https://labourlist.org/2021/09/labour-to-slash-affordable-rents-and-give-first-time-buyer-dibs-on-homes/

There's a contradiction bound up in wanting to build more houses while at the same time allowing local communities to veto housebuilding but so it goes.
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Offline Nobby Reserve

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #844 on: September 24, 2021, 11:33:58 am »
A proper, federal system, is what I think is needed for the UK to survive. Not that I expect it to happen. There are huge historical reasons for the four nations to remain within some kind of Union. But only for so long as the inhabitants of each country wish to remain.

A federal system, for example, would allow for things like Nuclear Subs to remain within the UK. It is an odd state of affairs when there is talk of the France or the US as alternative locations.


I think Brexit makes (or should make) the issue of independence a gimme.

A very hard Brexit - with all the problems that this creates - has been ploughed through by a collective of malevolent Tory c*nts who are motivated either by the prospect of gleefully having their bonfire of worker/environment/consumer protections, or by keeping the UK's 'Spiders Web' of financial secrecy in place and out of the hands of EU authorities and investigators.

Electoral support has come chiefly from English & Welsh people who feel disaffected and disenfranchised, and fell for the myth that the EU caused that.

An independent Scotland thriving as a member of the EU would torpedo huge chunks of Brexit support, and make it far more likely that the rUK rejoined (and I would hope the EU made us beg on our fucking knees - making us accept Schengen, the Euro, and full transparency of the BOTs/CDs)

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Offline Nobby Reserve

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #845 on: September 24, 2021, 11:39:40 am »
Yeah, Labour always ends up much more narrowly focused on 'local' although regional assemblies and all that were a thing which made it to serious consideration in the 90s and 00s in government. The London Assembly is the only one which survived opposition and ended up being implemented.

---

Outlines of housing policy being leaked ahead of time. It's all much as it was in general theme.

https://labourlist.org/2021/09/labour-to-slash-affordable-rents-and-give-first-time-buyer-dibs-on-homes/

There's a contradiction bound up in wanting to build more houses while at the same time allowing local communities to veto housebuilding but so it goes.



Doesn't go anything like far enough.

Allowing foreign investors to still hoover-up 50% of new developments is a disgraceful sell-out. Many of these foreign investors are companies within labyrinthine shell-company arrangements to hide assets.

No commitment to focusing on social housing (with very low rents) to totally subvert the private rental market, which would drive many landlords out of the market, thus increasingly the supply of houses to buy that would led to a reduction in house prices.

A Tory, a worker and an immigrant are sat round a table. There's a plate of 10 biscuits in the middle. The Tory takes 9 then turns to the worker and says "that immigrant is trying to steal your biscuit"

Offline Zeb

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #846 on: September 24, 2021, 11:45:05 am »


Doesn't go anything like far enough.

Allowing foreign investors to still hoover-up 50% of new developments is a disgraceful sell-out. Many of these foreign investors are companies within labyrinthine shell-company arrangements to hide assets.

No commitment to focusing on social housing (with very low rents) to totally subvert the private rental market, which would drive many landlords out of the market, thus increasingly the supply of houses to buy that would led to a reduction in house prices.



Think social housing plans will come later when Reeves is ready to cost them, although removing restrictions and disincentives on councils would seem relatively cost free - especially as councils are trying to find ways to build within current restrictions so meh on that for the moment, yeah. There is going to be a major contradiction between wanting to build more and that need to appeal to existing homeowners who also agree we should build more - just not near them.
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Online oldfordie

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #847 on: September 24, 2021, 11:45:44 am »
I think the key isn't the method of choosing the candidates. I said I believed in democracy back when politicians believed in responsibility and voters believed in accountability. They key is to make politicians believe in responsibility, or if they can't be made to do so, then making voters, who have the ultimate whiphand, believe in accountability. Ie. the political media. I have no idea how that would be done, but I strongly think that just changing the method of choosing our government would not do the job of improving our functional democracy. But the end should be making our politicians believe in one and the voters believe in the other, and the means is the political media.
Yeah, accountability and fact checking is needed but voters have no say on which candidate they want to stand in a election, it's about having a Labour candidate in elections who has similar views to his constituents rather than having similar views to the small amount of people who choose them.
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Offline filopastry

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #848 on: September 24, 2021, 11:58:07 am »
I wonder if there’s a chance that Labour’s next manifesto ends up being similar to 2017 in terms of what it sets out to do, just worded and delivered differently? I guess it wouldn’t be all that surprising if it is.

Not the worst thing in the world if it is, 2017 was much more believable than 2019 in terms of being deliverable in one term or at least making significant progress towards delivering it.

Offline Zeb

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #849 on: September 24, 2021, 11:58:53 am »
I wonder if there’s a chance that Labour’s next manifesto ends up being similar to 2017 in terms of what it sets out to do, just worded and delivered differently? I guess it wouldn’t be all that surprising if it is.

To a fair degree, yeah. Think it may end up going further in some ways by rejecting the austerity cuts which were accepted in the 2017 manifesto while also seeming to tack in a different direction by being pared down to a more narrowly focused message and set of initially stated aims. Rather than presenting itself as radical and overturning everything, I think this Labour leadership are looking to present themselves as unifiers looking to repair the state. All very small 'c' conservative in the impression they're giving. The radical stuff runs below that surface level take. Bit like how biggest redistribution of wealth this country's seen got passed through as 'Working Tax Credits' and just some boring paper shuffling.
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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #850 on: September 24, 2021, 12:09:46 pm »
I wonder if there’s a chance that Labour’s next manifesto ends up being similar to 2017 in terms of what it sets out to do, just worded and delivered differently? I guess it wouldn’t be all that surprising if it is.
Agree…

Starmer is actually quite left wing … I think people forget this …. 

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Offline Jiminy Cricket

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #851 on: September 24, 2021, 12:10:21 pm »
There should be certain constitutional rights for the nations that cannot be overridden by the UK except by, at least, a majority vote by the nations, where each nation counts as one vote. Go by population, and England will dominate the rest. Go by representation based on population, and England will dominate the rest. England needs to count as much as each of the other three, and no more. If England wants to do something without having to bear the others in mind, the action and effects need to be devolved. The UK should not be England and misc.
Yes - I think that is about right. Devolve as much as possible, and what can be sensibly decided at the UK level will be one country, one vote. And, any systemic changes to the federation would require a unanimous vote by the four countries.

We would also need to retain some system for redistribution of wealth between the nations to replace the Barnett Formula. Of course, this could be a sticking point (for the English).
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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #852 on: September 24, 2021, 12:24:20 pm »
Agree…

Starmer is actually quite left wing … I think people forget this …. 



Some certainly do. The whole thing is quite bizarre. I didn't quite realise how deeply this runs and just how long it's been going - the internal battle within the party.

I think it upsets me so much because there is an actual, real enemy to fight and oppose.
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Offline Robinred

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #853 on: September 24, 2021, 12:43:00 pm »
Some certainly do. The whole thing is quite bizarre. I didn't quite realise how deeply this runs and just how long it's been going - the internal battle within the party.

I think it upsets me so much because there is an actual, real enemy to fight and oppose.

The very term ‘left wing’ is essentially meaningless, particularly as the media (and S*n,Star, Mail Express and Telegraph specifically) will marry it to qualifying adjectives like ‘far’ and ‘looney’.

It should also be remembered that there have only ever been Labour P.Ms from the supposed ‘right’ of the Labour Party - whatever that means.
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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #854 on: September 24, 2021, 04:05:26 pm »
Inflation rising, queues at petrol stations, benefits cut, Xmas shortages, Johnson denied a deal with the US and what will be the main focus of Labour conference the unnecessary rule change Starmer wants to push and unnecessary in-fighting. Starmer is in control this is down to him, he could have placated the left but he chose to poke hem with a stick, no wonder people are pissed off on the sites that Andy and Sangria seem to live on.


If Johnson goes for a snap election no ones arsed about Labour rule changes. Corbyn rightly got stick fo ignoring Brexit now the Starmer ban on mentioning it is glossed over, not even a; people voted by small majority for Brexit no one expected the disastrous implementation from Johnson and co comes out.


the NHS is being ruined by the false markets andsemi-privatisation of so many of the lucrative services, while we pick up the cost of the necessary losses, yet Starmer essay is in praise of joint public private sector partnerships in health, these are the policies he needs to be nailing not schoolboy essays in platitudes and airey thinking.


People forget Corbyn leadership was begat by the electoral failure of Labour, No one expected him to win, least of all the left or they wouldn't have put Corbyn forward he was hardly going to be the person you'd choose, personality wise or politically. He was elected because people were sick of grey politicians and hat does Starmer offer, I'll be greyer than grey, Grey is my colour. He's a grey man out of his depth
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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #855 on: September 24, 2021, 04:07:11 pm »
Inflation rising, queues at petrol stations, benefits cut, Xmas shortages, Johnson denied a deal with the US and what will be the main focus of Labour conference the unnecessary rule change Starmer wants to push and unnecessary in-fighting. Starmer is in control this is down to him, he could have placated the left but he chose to poke hem with a stick, no wonder people are pissed off on the sites that Andy and Sangria seem to live on.


If Johnson goes for a snap election no ones arsed about Labour rule changes. Corbyn rightly got stick fo ignoring Brexit now the Starmer ban on mentioning it is glossed over, not even a; people voted by small majority for Brexit no one expected the disastrous implementation from Johnson and co comes out.


the NHS is being ruined by the false markets andsemi-privatisation of so many of the lucrative services, while we pick up the cost of the necessary losses, yet Starmer essay is in praise of joint public private sector partnerships in health, these are the policies he needs to be nailing not schoolboy essays in platitudes and airey thinking.


People forget Corbyn leadership was begat by the electoral failure of Labour, No one expected him to win, least of all the left or they wouldn't have put Corbyn forward he was hardly going to be the person you'd choose, personality wise or politically. He was elected because people were sick of grey politicians and hat does Starmer offer, I'll be greyer than grey, Grey is my colour. He's a grey man out of his depth


Well said.
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Offline Zeb

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #856 on: September 24, 2021, 04:10:36 pm »
Further to all the other obvious parts to everything, Dobbs' report (as party chair and leading the policy review) comes across like a soft left pamphlet on the virtues of localism. Devolve power to local/regional/subnational councils/assemblies in the hope that local communities feel a sense of ownership for what can be some pretty radical changes and make it much harder for a subsequent Tory government to rip it all out without paying the political price for it. Where it gets stickier is that you will end up with very uneven provision across the country but then the aim is to demonstrate 'Labour in power' and contrast with the Tories. Still, it makes me a little uncomfortable for things like Sure Start provision and so on. See how it gets joined up as manifesto commitments, and serious policy proposals behind those. Both Dobbs and Reeves in particular are very keyed into the view that Labour has to be seen as being financially responsible so there's a balancing act there given the chronic underfunding and under investment over the past decade, and chunks of the Tory party clearly hankering for a return to hair shirts and drastic cuts once more. Has the public mood changed sufficiently since 2010 and 2015, or shifted because of the way the pandemic costs have been initially framed?

Dobbs' report using exemplars of local policies and a set of essays from Labour politicians running stuff round the country is here: https://labour.org.uk/stronger-together/labour-works/
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Offline Zeb

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #857 on: September 24, 2021, 04:33:09 pm »
Inflation rising, queues at petrol stations, benefits cut, Xmas shortages, Johnson denied a deal with the US and what will be the main focus of Labour conference the unnecessary rule change Starmer wants to push and unnecessary in-fighting. Starmer is in control this is down to him, he could have placated the left but he chose to poke hem with a stick, no wonder people are pissed off on the sites that Andy and Sangria seem to live on.


If Johnson goes for a snap election no ones arsed about Labour rule changes. Corbyn rightly got stick fo ignoring Brexit now the Starmer ban on mentioning it is glossed over, not even a; people voted by small majority for Brexit no one expected the disastrous implementation from Johnson and co comes out.


the NHS is being ruined by the false markets andsemi-privatisation of so many of the lucrative services, while we pick up the cost of the necessary losses, yet Starmer essay is in praise of joint public private sector partnerships in health, these are the policies he needs to be nailing not schoolboy essays in platitudes and airey thinking.


People forget Corbyn leadership was begat by the electoral failure of Labour, No one expected him to win, least of all the left or they wouldn't have put Corbyn forward he was hardly going to be the person you'd choose, personality wise or politically. He was elected because people were sick of grey politicians and hat does Starmer offer, I'll be greyer than grey, Grey is my colour. He's a grey man out of his depth

If it weren't this set of rule changes the same people complaining would be whinging about the ones they put forward which got rejected (eg having the general secretary elected by the membership or having MPs disciplinary proceedings put before conference) so swings and roundabouts on that. If the rules are to be changed, now's as good a time as any because the economic picture you paint isn't going to be followed by a general election next year. I can well see the electoral college proposals being dropped in return for some of the others getting the nod, and the others seem much more useful to change - such as ending the daft internal hustings for sitting MPs ahead of a general election. Do think it's needless but I suspect the 'oh he's ruined conference' takes are overegged, especially from those who had only to make their mind up over what they were going to protest about.

I didn't see the 'let's privatise the NHS message' to his talk of public-private partnerships. He doesn't give health examples when talking about a partnership based on businesses having a community role, nor does he mention private involvement when he talks about health. The partnership stuff all seems to be based around what's come to be called 'the Preston model' in fact, and you can pick over the bones of how viable that is at leisure. All very Brown/Milliband/Corbyn really.

Think there is a distinction between Starmer and Corbyn and expectations. Corbyn wasn't expected to win because he's generally known to be affable but dim. Starmer's shown that his political instincts aren't the best. One thing was pretty clear early on  and that was Corbyn was never going to become any less dim by calling him 'leader'. Whether Starmer gets sharper politically is yet to be seen, there's some encouraging signs that he's at least listening to the evidence and thinking through on how to convince those who need to be convincing. Hard part is making it work.
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Offline Wild Romany Boy

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #858 on: September 24, 2021, 04:47:04 pm »
I'm not sure there are really any dim people in parliament but, if there are, Corbyn is definitely not one of them. Francois, I'll accept.

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #859 on: September 24, 2021, 05:27:30 pm »
Inflation rising, queues at petrol stations, benefits cut, Xmas shortages, Johnson denied a deal with the US and what will be the main focus of Labour conference the unnecessary rule change Starmer wants to push and unnecessary in-fighting. Starmer is in control this is down to him, he could have placated the left but he chose to poke hem with a stick, no wonder people are pissed off on the sites that Andy and Sangria seem to live on.


If Johnson goes for a snap election no ones arsed about Labour rule changes. Corbyn rightly got stick fo ignoring Brexit now the Starmer ban on mentioning it is glossed over, not even a; people voted by small majority for Brexit no one expected the disastrous implementation from Johnson and co comes out.


the NHS is being ruined by the false markets andsemi-privatisation of so many of the lucrative services, while we pick up the cost of the necessary losses, yet Starmer essay is in praise of joint public private sector partnerships in health, these are the policies he needs to be nailing not schoolboy essays in platitudes and airey thinking.
i

People forget Corbyn leadership was begat by the electoral failure of Labour, No one expected him to win, least of all the left or they wouldn't have put Corbyn forward he was hardly going to be the person you'd choose, personality wise or politically. He was elected because people were sick of grey politicians and hat does Starmer offer, I'll be greyer than grey, Grey is my colour. He's a grey man out of his depth
What's Grey got to do with it, being Grey certainly doesn't mean your out of your depth, if people prefer rousing feel good speeches then that's up to them, I heard and had enough of them many years ago, don't get me wrong, am in favour of great passionate speech's but I don't let the emotion get in the way of actually considering the implications of what they are saying, history taught us that lesson many years ago.
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Offline filopastry

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #860 on: September 24, 2021, 05:40:18 pm »
Inflation rising, queues at petrol stations, benefits cut, Xmas shortages, Johnson denied a deal with the US and what will be the main focus of Labour conference the unnecessary rule change Starmer wants to push and unnecessary in-fighting. Starmer is in control this is down to him, he could have placated the left but he chose to poke hem with a stick, no wonder people are pissed off on the sites that Andy and Sangria seem to live on.


If Johnson goes for a snap election no ones arsed about Labour rule changes. Corbyn rightly got stick fo ignoring Brexit now the Starmer ban on mentioning it is glossed over, not even a; people voted by small majority for Brexit no one expected the disastrous implementation from Johnson and co comes out.


the NHS is being ruined by the false markets andsemi-privatisation of so many of the lucrative services, while we pick up the cost of the necessary losses, yet Starmer essay is in praise of joint public private sector partnerships in health, these are the policies he needs to be nailing not schoolboy essays in platitudes and airey thinking.


People forget Corbyn leadership was begat by the electoral failure of Labour, No one expected him to win, least of all the left or they wouldn't have put Corbyn forward he was hardly going to be the person you'd choose, personality wise or politically. He was elected because people were sick of grey politicians and hat does Starmer offer, I'll be greyer than grey, Grey is my colour. He's a grey man out of his depth

Johnson is sitting on a massive majority, and is less than 2 years into this Parliament, he isn't calling a snap election imminently, there just isn't the payoff to be worth the risk, and there is always a risk no matter how comfortable you feel going into the campaign (see 2017).

I'm not saying changing the leadership rules would be my priority now either, but if the leadership wants to do it, now is the time. Labour had plenty of rule changes during the Corbyn years as well...

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #861 on: September 24, 2021, 06:20:05 pm »
https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1441450055454560256?s=20

This has the Tories 2 seats short of a majority so would make a snap election even less likely

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #862 on: September 24, 2021, 10:05:31 pm »
While the circumstances were very different, I would say that Corbyn and Starmer won the leadership contest due to pretty similar reasons when it came down to it. There was no belief that any of the other candidates would do better and ingrained sexism that lead to better female candidates being ignored. Or at least, to my memory, neither of them seemed to really get elected on the belief that they would be the next PM.

I have to laugh at the idea of a man who takes photos of drain covers in his spare time and who is a pretty terrible public speaker unless you agree with 100% of what he's saying not also being a grey politician also. Maybe you're referring to his politics being a little bit more divisive but if he actually was a colorful personality, had charisma and was a cool guy, Corbyn probably would have done better. Had a grandfather image with his supporters and at best a weird old lefty image with everyone else.

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #863 on: September 24, 2021, 10:24:20 pm »
What's Grey got to do with it, being Grey certainly doesn't mean your out of your depth, if people prefer rousing feel good speeches then that's up to them, I heard and had enough of them many years ago, don't get me wrong, am in favour of great passionate speech's but I don't let the emotion get in the way of actually considering the implications of what they are saying, history taught us that lesson many years ago.
Don't take it too literally ;D   I'm not asking for tub thumping, I'm talking about ideas, I'd be more impressed if he had a plan to start win back Scotland, a serious attempt to end the crisis in care, ideas about the NHS which people can get behind, a plan to win back the red wall that doesn't start with lets pander to the most backwards, how do we connect with people who feel so disaffected they've moved away from labour, falling for the siren call of the likes of Frottage but who are desperate for Labour to take their concerns seriously not for him to wave Engerland flags and patronise them. Easy no but it's too simplistic to just blame Corbyn any more than Miliband. The party should be talking about why we lost Scotland and the north not pandering to Svengalis trying to change leadership colleges etc. Starmer had the chance to unite the party instead he chose to fight internal battles first
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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #864 on: September 24, 2021, 10:34:44 pm »
Don't take it too literally ;D   I'm not asking for tub thumping, I'm talking about ideas, I'd be more impressed if he had a plan to start win back Scotland, a serious attempt to end the crisis in care, ideas about the NHS which people can get behind, a plan to win back the red wall that doesn't start with lets pander to the most backwards, how do we connect with people who feel so disaffected they've moved away from labour, falling for the siren call of the likes of Frottage but who are desperate for Labour to take their concerns seriously not for him to wave Engerland flags and patronise them. Easy no but it's too simplistic to just blame Corbyn any more than Miliband. The party should be talking about why we lost Scotland and the north not pandering to Svengalis trying to change leadership colleges etc. Starmer had the chance to unite the party instead he chose to fight internal battles first


Yeah it's just him fighting internal battles :D

As I have said a couple of times, read "Left Out" to see just what a shitshow it really is behind the scenes. I don't think there is any option but to split the Party. It's even more fucked than I thought. Than anyone thought probably.

The whole party is run in such an amateur way. The Tories are pros at focusiing on message and sticking together publically and blaming everyone else. They have no scruples or morals and genuinely don't give a shiny shite about anyone or anything that doesn't directly benefit them. They revel in flouting rules, lying and talking shite.

Labour and 'the left' besides the never-ending bickering, moaning, self-fighting and pushing shit that most people don't give a shit about also are seen as to having to have standards and morals and the rest by a world that no longer gives a shit about most of those things or indeed anyone else.
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They both went in high, that's factually correct, both tried to play the ball at height.  Doku with his foot, Mac Allister with his chest.

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #865 on: September 25, 2021, 12:01:31 am »
Don't take it too literally ;D   I'm not asking for tub thumping, I'm talking about ideas, I'd be more impressed if he had a plan to start win back Scotland, a serious attempt to end the crisis in care, ideas about the NHS which people can get behind, a plan to win back the red wall that doesn't start with lets pander to the most backwards, how do we connect with people who feel so disaffected they've moved away from labour, falling for the siren call of the likes of Frottage but who are desperate for Labour to take their concerns seriously not for him to wave Engerland flags and patronise them. Easy no but it's too simplistic to just blame Corbyn any more than Miliband. The party should be talking about why we lost Scotland and the north not pandering to Svengalis trying to change leadership colleges etc. Starmer had the chance to unite the party instead he chose to fight internal battles first
Is it possible to win back Scotland, IMO, those days are gone for now, only people I know from Scotland come from Glasgow, they despise the Torys. hate Brexit, they still speak positively about Labour but they want Independence so vote SNP. I doubt if Labour policy's would win them back, am not clued up to know how the rest of Scotland feels, I assume opinions differ all over the country, imo the problem isn't about them voting SNP, the problem is the position Labour will be in if Scotland becomes independent, it's roughly 58 anti Tory seats lost in Parliament. I understand where they are coming from, feel a lot of the same anger myself and would find it hard not to support independence, only thing that would stop me is I don't think no good will come from it in the future.
It's 4 yrs till the next GE and ive edited my post down to avoid doom and gloom. :) , are we going to spend that time ignoring what went wrong the last 6 yrs , I haven't changed my opinion from 2019, a Labour government would improve things dramatically but anyone expecting a Labour government to step in and bring big change is in for a big disappointment. Labour will be doing brilliantly if they were able to take us back to 2015. things will look far different in 2024,
If we can make some of the changes Nobbys calling for then things would look a lot brighter, claw back some of the hidden trillions stashed away to avoid tax. all pointed out before the referendum but ignored by many.

Am not looking for policy's right now, I want a full on attack on the serious flaws in our political system. sort them out and all the good things will follow. calling for more policy's always seems to be seen as the answer to all our problems. attacking the Torys policy by pointing out where they are wrong is the policy of the opposition, he will be asked what he would do, he answers those questions, I want the UK out of this vicious cycle of self harm. Agree or not Starmers trying to put the Labour party on the right footing. it won't be lack of policy's that upsets me, I take policy's that will improve the NHS, Care. Education for granted from all Labour governments, it will be if he fails to tackle what went wrong in our political system from 2015-2021 onwards.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2021, 12:05:21 am by oldfordie »
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Offline Snail

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #866 on: September 25, 2021, 12:11:42 am »

Yeah it's just him fighting internal battles :D

As I have said a couple of times, read "Left Out" to see just what a shitshow it really is behind the scenes. I don't think there is any option but to split the Party. It's even more fucked than I thought. Than anyone thought probably.

The whole party is run in such an amateur way. The Tories are pros at focusiing on message and sticking together publically and blaming everyone else. They have no scruples or morals and genuinely don't give a shiny shite about anyone or anything that doesn't directly benefit them. They revel in flouting rules, lying and talking shite.

Labour and 'the left' besides the never-ending bickering, moaning, self-fighting and pushing shit that most people don't give a shit about also are seen as to having to have standards and morals and the rest by a world that no longer gives a shit about most of those things or indeed anyone else.

I don't know why I keep waking up to you causing havoc in this thread but it's annoying to see you pretending to be the voice of reason once whatever it is that needs to wear off has worn off.

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #867 on: September 25, 2021, 12:23:29 am »
I don't know why I keep waking up to you causing havoc in this thread but it's annoying to see you pretending to be the voice of reason once whatever it is that needs to wear off has worn off.

Causing havoc?

The Labour Party is a mess at the moment. But then again, perhaps it's always been a mess.

Certain parties appear to have made it messier than usual though. I don't think that there is any way back from that, nor any way Labour are ever getting back into Scotland.

I want the Tories out, but I just can't see how it's possible with things as they are. Sorry if that annoys you, but if you want to say something, stop complaining and shouting 'Fuck off'
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They both went in high, that's factually correct, both tried to play the ball at height.  Doku with his foot, Mac Allister with his chest.

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #868 on: September 25, 2021, 12:30:11 am »

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #869 on: September 25, 2021, 12:49:42 am »
Is it possible to win back Scotland, IMO, those days are gone for now,

If Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson can win  Dennis Skinners old constituency to the Tories, Labour can win back parts of Scotland, of course it's not be easy  but it wasn't easy for the SNP, it requires political will, principal and a plan, it may take a few parlaments but the groundwork can be set but to write off the working class in a whole country is ridiculous , peoples views aren't fixed and set in stone especially in the times of turmoil we are living through, who saw Frottage or Trump a few years ago. That's part of the problem when you don't have conviction and principals are so fluid you don't know where to go when things don't seem to be working. This is a problem for those who are more worried about focus groups than policy
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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #870 on: September 25, 2021, 12:50:41 am »
This is, uh, embarrassing.

https://twitter.com/TomSheldrickITV/status/1441091687548289047?s=20

You have to build support slowly, one taxi rank at a time. Peter Mandelson told me that.

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #871 on: September 25, 2021, 01:04:51 am »
This is, uh, embarrassing.

https://twitter.com/TomSheldrickITV/status/1441091687548289047?s=20

Just for a bit of a change I'd love to see vox pops of Labour party leaders telling us what they think of Darlington taxi drivers.
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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #872 on: September 25, 2021, 01:09:23 am »
 Just read this article, Reinforcing the need for ideas I don't agree with it all by any means but there is a total lack of conviction at the moment and Starmer is fixated on patriotism, not mentioning Brexit in an attempt to win these Redwall voters back, They switched because they felt they were totally ignored by Labour, the answer isn't to become flag waving lite versions of the worst of the Tories, that's symptom not a cause, it's to have policies that give these people hope  that things can change for the better, that their parents have a fair care system, that the NHS works for them, that thy don't have to use food banks, that their gas and electric are affordable, that their kids have a chance to grow up and not end up as drug dealers or victims


 https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/sep/24/keir-starmer-centrists-leader-essay-party-modernise
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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #873 on: September 25, 2021, 01:09:45 am »
You have to build support slowly, one taxi rank at a time. Peter Mandelson told me that.

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Quote from: tubby on Today at 12:45:53 pm

They both went in high, that's factually correct, both tried to play the ball at height.  Doku with his foot, Mac Allister with his chest.

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #874 on: September 25, 2021, 01:29:33 am »
Just for a bit of a change I'd love to see vox pops of Labour party leaders telling us what they think of Darlington taxi drivers.

;D

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #875 on: September 25, 2021, 01:42:02 am »
To quote Andy Beckett in the Guardian in response to Andy Beckett in the Guardian, "During the Corbyn era, I left countless Labour briefings with exciting ideas and rhetoric ringing in my ears, only to discover shortly afterwards that the wider world either hadn’t noticed what had been announced or didn’t trust it." Shurely shome mishtake. ;D

It is bromides from Starmer but it isn't naivety, as Beckett suggests, driving a desire to present Labour as a safe option to vote into government. In truth, it's much what Milliband and Corbyn both tried to do - Corbyn somewhat more successfully in 2017 than 2019. McDonnell as cuddly grandpa in a jumper was an especial revelation (and credit to him for seeing the importance of projecting that image - you can see why Momentum tried to persuade him to stand to replace Corbyn in early 2016).

The policy work worth noting is in what Dobbs is doing really, not in Starmer trying to offer a bridge back to Labour to those who didn't vote for the party in past elections.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2021, 01:44:44 am by Zeb »
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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #876 on: September 25, 2021, 01:44:44 am »

If Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson can win  Dennis Skinners old constituency to the Tories, Labour can win back parts of Scotland, of course it's not be easy  but it wasn't easy for the SNP, it requires political will, principal and a plan, it may take a few parlaments but the groundwork can be set but to write off the working class in a whole country is ridiculous , peoples views aren't fixed and set in stone especially in the times of turmoil we are living through, who saw Frottage or Trump a few years ago. That's part of the problem when you don't have conviction and principals are so fluid you don't know where to go when things don't seem to be working. This is a problem for those who are more worried about focus groups than policy

Parts of Scotland is possible if the Independence issue is put to bed, how it came about is easier said than done, don't know enough to put forward anything that will change peoples minds. why Skinner and Piddock lost imo is more down to a new generation viewing politics +Labour politicians differently from previous generations. I don't think it will be that hard to win those seats back myself with different types of candidates in a different political climate.
 
I doubt if policy's mattered to most people over the last 6yrs. they voted for all sorts of vague positive rhetoric from many senior politicians of both major parties promising them the impossible.
Public opinion has been dictated by the corrupt selfish politicians, they gave people their opinions and I agree those opinions can be changed but my point is we are carrying on as normal. promises of new policy's while fighting the unscrupulous with our hands tied behind our backs.
It's always been a matter of not loosing sight of the goal for me. the goal being improving the lives and standard of living for the people of this country, anyone supporting a policy that will do serious unrepairable damage to our economy and the serious damaging fall out that brings on our society based on a personal principle has lost sight of the goal.



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“But by the time we went on air we simply had one of each; we presented this unequal effort to our audience as balance. It wasn’t.”
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Offline filopastry

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #877 on: September 25, 2021, 01:00:57 pm »
So it sounds like a consensus on leadership rule changes has been reached on the NEC.

Similar system to before (no electoral college), but threshold for MP support goes to 20%.

The cut price "supporters" group is gone, and there will be a time cutoff for when you would need to be a member before you could vote in a the leadership election.

Threshold for trigger ballots for sitting MPs will be raised as well

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #878 on: September 25, 2021, 05:13:57 pm »
Activist group Momentum called the proposed rule change "an MP veto by the backdoor", adding: "Handing this much power to a Westminster elite is the opposite of democracy."

What a belter of a sentence

'Westminster elites" who are voted in by the general public as opposed to just Labour members having a vote is the opposite of democracy?

I appreciate the debate around it and I'm not saying that I'm in support of it butut I couldn't not be amazed at that sentence

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Re: Keir Starmer: your views?
« Reply #879 on: September 25, 2021, 05:16:42 pm »

'Westminster elites" who are voted in by the general public as opposed to just Labour members having a vote is the opposite of democracy?

I appreciate the debate around it and I'm not saying that I'm in support of it butut I couldn't not be amazed at that sentence

It's hilarious.

I guess in a way it's a backhanded compliment to democracy. These idiots take democracy so much for granted that they've lost any real conception of what an elected representative is.
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