Topic: Not tolerating imperfection - fans heads all over the shop

[Mighty_Red]

Sometimes you have to separate frustration over poor performances and the long term opinion of a player, esp a young player. There's no doubt that both Can & Origi have regressed from the promise they showed last year. There are a multitude of reasons why this has happened (injuries, lack of game time, etc.) but I still view them as talented players who will come good in the long run. Can's recent performances show that he can be very very good.

Of course, as with any young player who is not already "world class", I don't think that should stop us looking for better players in their respective positions but that has to mean first teamers rather than more potential. If say we bought a top striker, it may mean Origi gets less gametime, but on the other hand Origi may step up and show why he should be in and around the squad

[didi shamone]

Before we start selling Coutiniho let's see if we can actually attract some decent players - in recent times typically we buy 2nd tier players because we don't have the financial might (salaries more so than fee) to compete with 'big boys' and hope they turn us into a world class team. Players like this can be sporadic in their form and we have to accept that as part of their development.

If we want consistency then let's get in the market for the top players this summer who are looking to move...some examples

For example...
- Sanchez wants to leave arsenal - £50m (?), let's try again to get him
- Lukaku wants to leave Everton, £50m (?) great let's go for him too
- Barkley, potential in midfield £25m (?)let's go for him
- Ryan Bertrand (£25m)

There you go, forward line fixed, more strength and depth in midfield and we have a proper left back etc. etc.

But reality is PSG, Utd and Chelsea will probably take between them all 4 players and we will be left looking for our bargains which we can then string up for not delivering consistently whilst they develop.

Not to derail the thread but Barkley has found his level.  We made two big money signings last season. Even if Gini was a surprise. I'm happy  once we're looking for first team improvements whilst keeping all the current first teamers.

All fans are fickle to a point but gladly we have a pragmatic manager who's going to be aware of what he needs to improve. Hes signed our only undroppable player last year in Mane. Arguably in Matip a second. Two or three more of that ilk and we're a serious side.

[SerbianScouser]

There are a multitude of reasons why this has happened (injuries, lack of game time, etc.)

Can was used in a wrong position because he's such a good player that Klopp felt compelled to squeeze him in somewhere. Now when he's being used in his correct position he's thriving.

[Jookie]

Im sure it is a timeless factor, but I also think the growth of social media as a platform to vent amplifies the issue. Consequence-free trolling and idiocy are now common place so internet fans are free to adopt much stronger opinions compared to a previous age which wasn't so anonymous.

The main difference is that 15-30 years ago, any moaning about this player or that was done with your mates down the pub. You then went the match and got behind the team.

Nowadays that venting is online for everyone to see. Other fans, opposition fans, the media and the players manager can see it if they want. If you want a temperature check of how a fanbase is feeling then one way to do that is to read social media and see what people are saying. The other, and probably more valid, approach is the reaction of the crowd at Anfield.

The problem is that after a defeat (or draw) the 'loudest' voices are those from people kicking off. They are also more likely to represent the more extreme viewpoints -  particularly on Twitter. Extreme opinions can be voiced with anonymity and without much recourse. I'd say that 20 years ago if you expressed an extreme opinion, for example calling for Klopp's head after the recent set of results, you have got called out big time. Down the pub but more so in the match. The people shouting loudly now, would;t in most cases have the balls to do it at the ground with the prospect of being challenged by other people.

[Pistolero]

Finally, so what if such hysterical moaning is a fan thing to do? Doesn't mean it can't be called out if it comes across as entitled bed wetting. In fact, the modem phenomenon of having the right to be outraged is at the heart of this culture and I find it particularly egregious. If one doesn't then fine.

Not really arsed by it to be honest....if anything I find the flip-side just as / even more annoying - ie, players being described as legends, great, world class etc etc on the strength of a handful of performances...epithets and reputations that in previous non-internet days would take seasons to establish......like Ziggy Stardust..it swings both ways

[jepovic]

Can was used in a wrong position because he's such a good player that Klopp felt compelled to squeeze him in somewhere. Now when he's being used in his correct position he's thriving.

Exactly. It shouldn't be held against him that he can do a good job at other positions.

Can is probably our cheapest player, counted per minute played.

[stockdam]

I rarely if ever get involved in criticising our players. I'll criticise the manager if he makes a bad decision but players generally are trying their best (if not then they get dropped and we then rarely moan about those who aren't playing).

We don't have the financial resources to compete at the top and so we have a squad made up with some good players and some decent players.

However there are some here who pick on every single mistake made by certain players. Look at how Lucas was treated both here and at Anfield. All the guy did was to give his all. Skrtel was another fall-guy who could do no right. Simon, Klavan and Can come under a fair amount of criticism.

Every goal that we concede is Klavan's fault for not predicting where he should be or because he isn't fast enough (replace Klavan with your "favourite" scape-goat).

The EPL is a tough league where mistakes are punished. The game is fast and in a split second you can turn off and be caught out. Slow motion replays highlight minor mistakes.

When we score it is great play. When we concede or miss a change then it is Fimino's fault or Simons or.......

Well we play as a team and we win or lose as a team. Players do their best and the don't deliberately make mistakes.

We'd all like to see better players but that is down to restrictions that are not the players' faults.

If they wear the shirt with pride and do their best then they get my support.........as for those who criticise Klavan for being 3 feet out of position in a fast moving game then get over yourself as I'm sure you wouldn't be fit to lace his boots. Some days the ball bounces off your shins every time and on others you come up against a guy who is your nemesis.

[Jookie]

if anything I find the flip-side just as / even more annoying - ie, players being described as legends, great, world class etc etc on the strength of a handful of performances...epithets and reputations that in previous non-internet days would take seasons to establish......like Ziggy Stardust..it swings both ways

I agree with this. There's no balance in either side. People exaggerate on the internet to make their point. Whether that be to emphasise the positive or the negative. Sensible balanced opinion gets lost in the noise. Not necessarily on RAWK but definitely on Twitter. People become entrenched in their opinion and stick to it no matter what. It's why you see people defend their favourite player to the hilt or look to balme non-favourites for every slight mistake.

In real life, the problem is that the vast majority of people sit in the middle. It's just not them people who are shouting the loudest on social media. It why something like The Anfield Wrap is great. It's not scared to criticise the players or managers, but it's almost nearly always balanced in it's opinion. The Liverpool fans I come across on a personal basis generally have this balanced, sensible view. It's only (a proportion of the) faceless internet folk who seem to have the extreme, non-balanaced, reactive and lacking in context opinions around the players/manager/club. It's these bellends who I get annoyed by.

[Eeyore]

Not really arsed by it to be honest....if anything I find the flip-side just as / even more annoying - ie, players being described as legends, great, world class etc etc on the strength of a handful of performances...epithets and reputations that in previous non-internet days would take seasons to establish......like Ziggy Stardust..it swings both ways

That is point I was going to make mate.

If people didn't go overboard in the first place and place impossible expectations on players and managers alike then there wouldn't be such a negative reaction when they inevitably fail to live up to those ridiculous expectations.

For me it is the hype surrounding the game that leads to it. You tune into Sky and every game is apparently a classic with teams and players elevated well beyond their capabilities. Strangely enough when our teams get their arses handed to them in Europe the likes of Sky fail to put their hand up and admit they were wrong. Nope much easier to look for scapegoats.

Can the other day is a perfect example, posters lined up to say how fantastic Emre was at picking the ball up and driving at City, they failed to mention that City had Toure ageing before our eyes behind De Bruyne and Silva for much of the match. Now if Can tries that against Everton a much more combatative midfield and it doesn't come of then he will be hung out to dry by the same people currently lauding him.

So ignore the hype, look a little deeper and don't get hard ons about players and you won't be so disappointment.

[jambutty]

So ignore the hype, look a little deeper and don't get hard ons about players and you won't be so disappointment.

And so say most of us.

[Alf]

Why did he look gone in January? Because as a young player he found himself on the periphery of the 1st XI? Or because he struggled when asked to play as a number 8 rather than the number 6 position he excelled the season before? Why the need for a snap judgement rather than basing your opinion on the bigger picture?

Also there doesn't always need to be a reason for poor form. Sometimes it just happens. For all players but especially young players. Just cut them some slack and trust in the manger's judgment of a player's potential.

If you look at the tail end of last season it could be argued that our best 3 players were Can, Origi & Sturridge. For whatever reason when this season started none of them appeared to be in favour with the manager.  I'd argue that our best results have come this season when Can hasn't been on the pitch, Origi scored 5 goals in consecutive games towards the end of 2016 and his confidence still looked shot to shit, Sturridge's season has never really started. Young players form can be eratic, I agree but generally there is a reason for poor performance but that's not to say these players cannot fulfill their potential.

[Filler.]

I don't often use my internet time on here to criticise players that much. It's not something I'm that good at really, so when the flak is in coming, I dive out. My basic position is one of 'upgrade the lot', which is probably why I don't get involved very often .

I completely agree with the basic tenet in the OP tho. Am wondering tho if part of this 'phenomena' is due to the rather Jekyll and Hyde nature of our game, and the fact that we're getting by (very well at times) with a few square pegs.

[Sheer Magnetism]

It isn't a matter of not tolerating imperfection, it's mostly about hyperbole (which the OP ironically displays itself). I don't have an issue with players' form being criticised if they aren't playing well, especially if people have the nous to pick out parts of their game that need improvement. The problem is when people start making ludicrously negative statements ("they're finished", "they don't care about the team", "they're League One standard", etc.) about our players in general that are both pejorative and completely out of sync with reality. The players from the 2013-14 vintage in particular have had extremely negative things said about them on here out of all proportion to their quality as players.

The other thing is that because fans have favourites, certain kinds of players tend to be favoured above others if not outright untouchable at times, until they suddenly aren't. If someone's tall, German and has hair you could toss one off in the shower to, they can do no wrong for months, right up until their performances reach a critical mass of disappointing at which point they're shit and in fact have never been any good. If you want to talk about Coutinho, he's long had issues with consistency, especially with regard to end product, and could contribute a lot more within the game a lot of the time. That doesn't negate what's good and often great about him, but pointing out those issues is fair.

[joekim87]

I think as long as a player is giving his 110% on the pitch, it's probably unfair to be overly critical. I guess most people post rants but present them as opinions.

I personally think Origi and Can will go on to become cornerstones of our side in the coming years. Would suck if they bombed out but I trust our management to find suitable replacements.

[It's Jimmy Corkhill]

Can and Origi will be going nowhere. They're both young and can do a job in more than one position.

[Fitzy.]

It isn't a matter of not tolerating imperfection, it's mostly about hyperbole (which the OP ironically displays itself).

Do I?

[Jookie]

I'd argue that our best results have come this season when Can hasn't been on the pitch

It's a mixed bag. Emre Can started in the City away game (1-1), City home game (1-0), Arsenal home game (3-1) United away (1-1), Chelsea home (1-1) All of which were good results and/or performances.

He's also played in some of games that have had great performances - Watford 6-1 and Palace 2-4 for example.

I think his big issue it that he's been at the scene of the crime for a lot of our poorer results. Other players have too but due to his inconsistent form I think there's a tendency to draw parallels with Can playing and the team not doing well.

[McrRed]

Do I?

A little [emoji6]

I think we need a NAIL YOUR COLOURS TO THE MAST squad rating thread to stop the gobshite flip-flopping and give us a bit of a laugh for when we're not playing so well.

[keyop]

Without getting too philosophical (or sounding like an old git), I wonder if it has something to do with society in general.

In our modern narcissistic world of facebook, twitter and instagram (3 things I've never joined and never really understood), and where everything is instant, on demand, in your face, and can be criticised anonymously, then perhaps tolerance in general is in decline.

Too many people in my view hide behind fabricated online lives and post utter nonsense or abuse on websites which they would never say in the pub or any other setting. When a lack of tolerance is coupled with a general economic gloom whilst footballers pay continues to rise, then I guess its only natural for there to be some resentment towards the players or the people running the club.

However, the bipolar nature of this site at times is hugely frustrating and is I think one of the reasons why so many good posters have fallen by the wayside over the years (whatever happened to posters like Phase of Play?). No-one wants to read page after page of moaning with no context or balance, and no-one wants to see our own fans constantly arguing with each other when we essentially all want the same thing. It's certainly been one of the most frustrating aspects of our fanbase in recent years. In the autumn all is rosy with our new stand and we are top of the league and beating teams for fun, then all of a sudden in February we are shite with a terrible squad needing 5-6 new players and a complete overhaul of everything at the club.

We live in an imperfect world of which football is a part. Supporting our club always has and always will be a rollercoaster ride, and once you accept the ups and the downs as part of the journey then it's much more fun.

[SamAteTheRedAcid]

whatever happened to posters like Phase of Play?

On a long unbeaten run, North of the border I heard

[nico 8]

One thing that I do perhaps think is lost in our current recruitment approach of buying young players in the hope of them maturing and improving whilst at the club, as opposed to buying more rounded older footballers, is that you have to therefore be very good at appraising these young players whilst they're still young and attempting to map their trajectory.

If you dont then you can easily end up retaining young footballers far too long in the hope that they improve through coaching and experience and then them never actually doing so.

Its not an easy thing to do, but its something we as a club will have to.

We'll have to make a call on just how good we think the likes of Can/Origi/Moreno/Karius can become *before* they actually get there otherwise you run the risk of wasting years on them, which we can't afford to do.

Is correct. As a club we are not buying from the top drawer. We simply cannot compete with the r,I have clubs. We are forced to look at youngsters and it is their erratic development that frustrates.ceilings may be difficult to project. It is the consistency in reaching those high levels which dictate whether a youngster  is here to stay. There have been many mistakes by clubs letting their players go to soon eg: De Bruyne, Lukaku, Di Maria. It may be argued that we hang on to long. As a club we cannot afford mistakes that Chelsea and Man Utd can afford.
Therefore we need to be patient.
However, I do believe that there are exceptions where you come across players who simply cannot take us to the next level. That is not their failing but the club's for failing to improve on them. Mignonette has been good this season and has improved but as a fan base we know that we need to improve on him if we want to be competing consistently at the top end. I have my reservations about Can as he is too slow on the ball and cannot turn smoothly. He does how show leadership skills and will keep fighting regardless of the level of his performance. It goes to character whereas technique you can coach. Original needs a run of games to be judged properly otherwise you get what you get by giving him minutes here and there. The potential is clearly there.
Coutinho is simply a player we cannot afford to lose. He is player we need to build the team around. Anyone saying anything different is as said by a previous poster- idiotic.

[the_red_pill]

I think as long as a player is giving his 110% on the pitch, it's probably unfair to be overly critical. I guess most people post rants but present them as opinions.

I personally think Origi and Can will go on to become cornerstones of our side in the coming years. Would suck if they bombed out but I trust our management to find suitable replacements.

"110%" is subjective though.
I've learned to stay away from that critique. A player might give their all and more, but that's subject to fitness level, fatigue, form, injury; so that will fluctuate.

Also- if they do give their all- especially against a top class team like City at the weekend - where football is played at 100 miles p/h, they get criticized for displaying fatigue near the end of the game which is just not good enough/valuable "insight".

Like I said- I stay away from that these days- but to each their own.