Author Topic: Liverpool's defence - Giraffes, Walls and Automobiles  (Read 168259 times)

Offline El Lobo

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Re: The rejuvenated defence thread
« Reply #200 on: December 4, 2016, 06:46:36 pm »
I'll be honest, I hope we just sign someone who's as good as Matip.

Easily done  :butt
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

Offline Giono

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Re: The rejuvenated defence thread
« Reply #201 on: December 4, 2016, 06:51:42 pm »
Lucas isn't no where near good enough to fill the void for him sadly.  Arsed what he does against shite in the cups, whenever he's brought in during the Premier League this defence falls apart and mistakes happen.

Hope Matip comes back asap. He's a rock at the back.

Lucas was not at fault. Where were Lovren and Henderson today? 2 regular players in our defensive set-up that became a shambles...maybe they are being compensated for weekly by Matip and expecting Lucas to replace that leadership was too much? Besides that, I did not see that Lucas was any sort of a glaring culprit.
« Last Edit: December 4, 2016, 06:57:08 pm by Giono »
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Offline Giono

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Re: The rejuvenated defence thread
« Reply #202 on: December 4, 2016, 06:54:40 pm »
Klopp was talking up Klavan when he signed him but he can't get in ahead of an out of position Lucas.  Maybe could've swapped Henderson with Can after his booking, felt his game fell apart because of that.

Our midfield became a sieve. Besides being our DM, Henderson is our captain, should he be 'falling apart'?

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Offline Eeyore

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Re: The rejuvenated defence thread
« Reply #203 on: December 4, 2016, 06:57:37 pm »
I'll be honest, I hope we just sign someone who's as good as Matip.

Every team on the planet is after someone as good as Matip. We are lucky to have one Matip.
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Offline King Klopp.

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Re: The rejuvenated defence thread
« Reply #204 on: December 4, 2016, 07:01:08 pm »
Every team on the planet is after someone as good as Matip. We are lucky to have one Matip.

Maybe but there are others at that general level. Obviously Van Dijk. It's just we won't spend that type of money on one. Hopefully Jurgen can find another Matip.
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Offline killer-heels

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Re: The rejuvenated defence thread
« Reply #205 on: December 4, 2016, 07:05:20 pm »
Maybe but there are others at that general level. Obviously Van Dijk. It's just we won't spend that type of money on one. Hopefully Jurgen can find another Matip.

Why wont we spend money on one?

Offline King Klopp.

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Re: The rejuvenated defence thread
« Reply #206 on: December 4, 2016, 07:06:05 pm »
Why wont we spend money on one?

I just don't think Jurgen would spend £40m+ on a defender.
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Offline Giono

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Re: The rejuvenated defence thread
« Reply #207 on: December 4, 2016, 07:07:04 pm »
Lucas is a lovely lad and a great professional and as a person appears a top, top guy. He's been dining out on 6 months of good form for going on 5 years now though. He shouldn't be starting matches for us anymore, and he absolutely shouldn't be our third choice CB.

So, Lucas is an obvious fraud in your eyes? And so our manager, who does not see what you see, is the deluded person here?

Not only that, Klopp prefers Lucas to Klavan.

 

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Re: The rejuvenated defence thread
« Reply #208 on: December 4, 2016, 07:07:06 pm »
I just don't think Jurgen would spend £40m+ on a defender.

I think the world is mad to spend 40m on a defender. There isnt one that good.

Offline King Klopp.

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Re: The rejuvenated defence thread
« Reply #209 on: December 4, 2016, 07:10:07 pm »
I think the world is mad to spend 40m on a defender. There isnt one that good.

I disagree. Why are midfielders and attackers worth that but not defenders? Matip for example completely changes our defence. I'd say on the open market he'd be worth upwards of £25m. Van Dijk for example is probably overpriced at £40m but that's because he plays for a team in the richest league in the world. I'd say he's a similar level to Matip.
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Offline Giono

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Re: The rejuvenated defence thread
« Reply #210 on: December 4, 2016, 07:11:17 pm »
When we play the following in defense we concede :

0.7 goals when Matip plays
1.21 goals when Clyne plays
1.38 goals when Lovren plays
1.92 goals when Klavan plays
2 goals when Lucas plays

Say's it all really
'
Those are averages. On average how often does Lovren play with Matip...90%? Stats have their limitations...especially with small data samples.
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Offline deFacto please, you bastards

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Re: The rejuvenated defence thread
« Reply #211 on: December 4, 2016, 07:12:05 pm »
Van Dijk is worth every penny of whatever Soton are asking. He's the best centerback in the league, only Alderwield is on the same level

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Re: The rejuvenated defence thread
« Reply #212 on: December 4, 2016, 07:13:41 pm »
Van Dijk is worth every penny of whatever Soton are asking. He's the best centerback in the league, only Alderwield is on the same level

I'd say Matip and Kosielny are near that level as well. The 4 best in the league in my opinion. If we had two of them I'd be very confident.
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Offline SerbianScouser

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Re: The rejuvenated defence thread
« Reply #213 on: December 4, 2016, 07:17:32 pm »


This is really a comedy defending. 7 guys all in one line, no depth whatsoever , one pullback takes them all out of the game, beyond hilarious. Our DM in particular still has a lot to learn about positioning .

Offline Haggis36

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Re: The rejuvenated defence thread
« Reply #214 on: December 4, 2016, 07:20:31 pm »
So, Lucas is an obvious fraud in your eyes? And so our manager, who does not see what you see, is the deluded person here?

Not only that, Klopp prefers Lucas to Klavan.

I'm sorry, is that what I said? That's quite a leap you've made there. There is a difference between being a "fraud" (whatever that is supposed to mean) and the pretty obvious reality that, for a long while now, Lucas not been good enough to start for this team, be it in midfield or his now new position in defence, at least if we want to do well over the course of a season. Do you disagree?

He started today because Matip was out and because Klavan is, well, not very good. And that is the extent of our CB options, which the more I think about it, the more absurd and laughable it seems. That Lucas is ahead of Klavan says more about the Estonian than it does about Lucas, in my opinion.

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Re: The rejuvenated defence thread
« Reply #215 on: December 4, 2016, 07:20:31 pm »


This is really a comedy defending. 7 guys all in one line, no depth whatsoever , one pullback takes them all out of the game, beyond hilarious. Our DM in particular still has a lot to learn about positioning .

Every single player is in the box there. Even all our front 3. Laughable to concede.
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Offline Haggis36

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Re: The rejuvenated defence thread
« Reply #216 on: December 4, 2016, 07:23:10 pm »


This is really a comedy defending. 7 guys all in one line, no depth whatsoever , one pullback takes them all out of the game, beyond hilarious. Our DM in particular still has a lot to learn about positioning .

Looking at that makes me want to cry. Why does it seem that no matter who is playing or how they are coached, the team as a whole just contrive to look properly amateur when defending at times? Like, when will it end? How do we change it?

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Re: The rejuvenated defence thread
« Reply #217 on: December 4, 2016, 07:25:58 pm »
Looking at that makes me want to cry. Why does it seem that no matter who is playing or how they are coached, the team as a whole just contrive to look properly amateur when defending at times? Like, when will it end? How do we change it?

By having players in their natural positions I think. Lucas isn't a CB. Henderson isn't a DM so his positioning isn't great for it.
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Offline Always_A_Red

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Re: The rejuvenated defence thread
« Reply #218 on: December 4, 2016, 07:28:00 pm »
We have two stoppers in Lovren and Klavan and two ball players in Matip and Lucas. Klopp summed it up perfectly we stopped playing football. If we continue playing then we simply don't need two stoppers. We dominate possession, we run them into the ground and we come out comfortable winners.

Us stopping playing football doesn't stop Lucas from being able to tackle and making poor positional decisions. Before they went 4-3 up they had another 1v1 chance because Lucas dived in, misjudged it and allowed Afobe to be clean through.

There will be times when we don't dominate possession and teams put us under pressure and we need players in the defensive positions who can deal with that pressure and not fold like a pack of cards like we did today.
« Last Edit: December 4, 2016, 07:54:32 pm by Always_A_Red »
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Offline Eeyore

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Re: The rejuvenated defence thread
« Reply #219 on: December 4, 2016, 07:29:01 pm »


This is really a comedy defending. 7 guys all in one line, no depth whatsoever , one pullback takes them all out of the game, beyond hilarious. Our DM in particular still has a lot to learn about positioning .

To be fair that is pretty much how you want your back four to defend.

The midfield though doesn't really have anyone in it with defensive instincts. The question though is do we change that and bring in a natural DM or do we do as Klopp wants and just carry on playing football, keep hold of the ball better, make better decisions and just manage the games better.
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Offline Haggis36

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Re: The rejuvenated defence thread
« Reply #220 on: December 4, 2016, 07:29:54 pm »
By having players in their natural positions I think. Lucas isn't a CB. Henderson isn't a DM so his positioning isn't great for it.

I take your point, but even when players are in their rightful positions we've been naive and prone to meltdowns defensively for years now. We've seen a fair amount of turnover of players in that time, but the problem remains. Is it an issue of quality? We definitely need a top class CB to come in, and arguably as well as Milner has done I don't think it would hurt to get an actual dedicated LB in.

Henderson wasn't great in his role today in the second half, but equally if you're needing to rely on your designated DM against a team like Bournemouth, then well, something is probably wrong. That's before you even get to the incompetence of the defence and keeper today.

Offline Giono

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Re: The rejuvenated defence thread
« Reply #221 on: December 4, 2016, 07:32:13 pm »
I'm sorry, is that what I said? That's quite a leap you've made there. There is a difference between being a "fraud" (whatever that is supposed to mean) and the pretty obvious reality that, for a long while now, Lucas not been good enough to start for this team, be it in midfield or his now new position in defence, at least if we want to do well over the course of a season. Do you disagree?

He started today because Matip was out and because Klavan is, well, not very good. And that is the extent of our CB options, which the more I think about it, the more absurd and laughable it seems. That Lucas is ahead of Klavan says more about the Estonian than it does about Lucas, in my opinion.

You wrote: "He's been dining out on 6 months of good form for going on 5 years now though." That is saying that people who rate him are deluded by a flash of form. Klopp certainly isn't deluded by highlight reels. But you are partially right because many of us in player threads can survive on one memory repeated over and over. :)

I agree on your point about Klaven. He is not that good. But he was a stop gap purchase for a few reasons we know (Gomez) and a few we don't know (Sakho).



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Offline SerbianScouser

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Re: The rejuvenated defence thread
« Reply #222 on: December 4, 2016, 07:33:51 pm »
To be fair that is pretty much how you want your back four to defend.
Midfield was the main issue here. Henderson was in his DM position at the beginning of the move and had he stayed there he would have been in the perfect spot to clear the danger.

Offline rscanderlech

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Re: The rejuvenated defence thread
« Reply #223 on: December 4, 2016, 07:37:54 pm »
Maybe but there are others at that general level. Obviously Van Dijk. It's just we won't spend that type of money on one. Hopefully Jurgen can find another Matip.
I think Van Dijk is wrong for us in any case because he is only 6ft and we may find that this costs us as much as we gain from it in the event that we do sign him, given our existing height issues.

There are some extremely good young defenders in Germany and Italy.

Offline Haggis36

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Re: The rejuvenated defence thread
« Reply #224 on: December 4, 2016, 07:41:47 pm »
You wrote: "He's been dining out on 6 months of good form for going on 5 years now though." That is saying that people who rate him are deluded by a flash of form. Klopp certainly isn't deluded by highlight reels. But you are partially right because many of us in player threads can survive on one memory repeated over and over. :)

I agree on your point about Klaven. He is not that good. But he was a stop gap purchase for a few reasons we know (Gomez) and a few we don't know (Sakho).

Do I think people are inherently blinded from being constructive when it comes to Lucas because they like him as a person and because he went on a good run of form (that he has never come close to repeating since) a long time ago? Yeah, course. Deluded? I wouldn't go that far. He's been decent these past few years, nothing more. His legs deserted him a while ago though, and there is a reason that he has been little more than a back-up for injuries and rotation for the past few seasons. Certainly Klopp doesn't appear to view him as a midfielder anymore, so we can only discuss his merit as a CB, and he's just not very good there. You can tart it up and defend him by saying it's not his natural position and that's fair enough, but he's still not very good there. If he can't perform in what is now his only position when called upon, then he's not really providing worthwhile depth to the side.
« Last Edit: December 4, 2016, 07:43:31 pm by holymoly »

Offline Haggis36

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Re: The rejuvenated defence thread
« Reply #225 on: December 4, 2016, 07:43:01 pm »
I think Van Dijk is wrong for us in any case because he is only 6ft and we may find that this costs us as much as we gain from it in the event that we do sign him, given our existing height issues.

There are some extremely good young defenders in Germany and Italy.

Van Dijk is 6ft 4...

Offline King Klopp.

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Re: The rejuvenated defence thread
« Reply #226 on: December 4, 2016, 07:47:04 pm »
I think Van Dijk is wrong for us in any case because he is only 6ft and we may find that this costs us as much as we gain from it in the event that we do sign him, given our existing height issues.

There are some extremely good young defenders in Germany and Italy.

Ehm what? Have you ever actually seen Van Dijk? He's a fucking monster. He's 6 foot 4.
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Offline Eeyore

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Re: The rejuvenated defence thread
« Reply #227 on: December 4, 2016, 07:56:27 pm »
Us stopping playing football doesn't stop Lucas from being able to tackle and making poor positional positions. Before they went 4-3 up they had another 1v1 chance because Lucas dived in, misjudged it and allowed Afobe to be clean through.

There will be times when we don't dominate possession and teams put us under pressure and we need players in the defensive positions who can deal with that pressure and not fold like a pack of cards like we did today.

I suggest you watch the Afobe chance again mate.

He wins a header against Lovren and when the ball drops he tries to turn inside Lucas and it comes off Lucas's trailing leg and falls into Afobe's path. Lucas doesn't dive in.
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Offline King Klopp.

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Re: The rejuvenated defence thread
« Reply #228 on: December 4, 2016, 07:59:17 pm »
I suggest you watch the Afobe chance again mate.

He wins a header against Lovren and when the ball drops he tries to turn inside Lucas and it comes off Lucas's trailing leg and falls into Afobe's path. Lucas doesn't dive in.

I'll need to watch it again but why is Lucas so close to Lovren to the point where a ricochet completely takes him out the game?
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Offline Eeyore

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Re: The rejuvenated defence thread
« Reply #229 on: December 4, 2016, 07:59:18 pm »
Midfield was the main issue here. Henderson was in his DM position at the beginning of the move and had he stayed there he would have been in the perfect spot to clear the danger.

It was the same for the second goal. Hendo ignores his man Fraser who has checked out and charges back looking to mark space. As they say players score goals not space.
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Offline Eeyore

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Re: The rejuvenated defence thread
« Reply #230 on: December 4, 2016, 08:07:17 pm »
I'll need to watch it again but why is Lucas so close to Lovren to the point where a ricochet completely takes him out the game?

It doesn't Wilson outmuscles Hendo from a long ball and the ball bounces. Lovren loses out to Afobe and as the ball breaks Lucas challenges Afobe for the ball as he does the ball comes off his trailing leg and falls perfectly for Afobe.

Afobe is the lone striker and Lucas covers his partner.
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Offline Giono

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Re: The rejuvenated defence thread
« Reply #231 on: December 4, 2016, 08:07:19 pm »
Do I think people are inherently blinded from being constructive when it comes to Lucas because they like him as a person and because he went on a good run of form (that he has never come close to repeating since) a long time ago? Yeah, course. Deluded? I wouldn't go that far. He's been decent these past few years, nothing more. His legs deserted him a while ago though, and there is a reason that he has been little more than a back-up for injuries and rotation for the past few seasons. Certainly Klopp doesn't appear to view him as a midfielder anymore, so we can only discuss his merit as a CB, and he's just not very good there. You can tart it up and defend him by saying it's not his natural position and that's fair enough, but he's still not very good there. If he can't perform in what is now his only position when called upon, then he's not really providing worthwhile depth to the side.

You have a short memory.

Remember way back last season when Klopp joined us? Remember how people were remarking about how good we suddenly became? Lucas was the first name on the team sheet until injury and stamina lead to him being replaced by Can for the final part of the season. There is more than one spell.

I agree with you. The midfielder-in-defence defence doesn't have any merit. But there is some truth to it in this particular match.

Having a converted midfielder in a central defence pairing with the aggressive Lovren is a recipe for some frantic defending. A cool-headed DM would be helpful and Henderson's positioning and instincts aren't there yet. A bit of a perfect storm.
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Offline thelinnen

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Re: The rejuvenated defence thread
« Reply #232 on: December 4, 2016, 08:23:00 pm »
We've never seen Sakho Matip have we? Klopp should bring him back just for the childish joke when they pass the ball to each other from the commentator.
Then in the midddle out pops a smiling glen johnson pulling up his jersey to reveal a t-shirt of suarez with a text saying. "OUR SUAREZ IS A FRIEND TO ALL COLOURS!"

Offline Haggis36

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Re: The rejuvenated defence thread
« Reply #233 on: December 4, 2016, 08:24:34 pm »
You have a short memory.

Remember way back last season when Klopp joined us? Remember how people were remarking about how good we suddenly became? Lucas was the first name on the team sheet until injury and stamina lead to him being replaced by Can for the final part of the season. There is more than one spell.

I agree with you. The midfielder-in-defence defence doesn't have any merit. But there is some truth to it in this particular match.

Having a converted midfielder in a central defence pairing with the aggressive Lovren is a recipe for some frantic defending. A cool-headed DM would be helpful and Henderson's positioning and instincts aren't there yet. A bit of a perfect storm.

The pattern is always the same though, isn't it? Lucas is a "trusted lieutenant" up until invariably a manager realises he doesn't have the physicality required to do what is asked of him, and he goes from being in the team (I wouldn't say the first name on it..) to being a back-up player who comes in only for injuries and suspensions. Happened (a few times in cycles actually) under Rodgers, and has happened again here. Sure, he started when Klopp first arrived, but fairly quickly as Klopp moulded his team into the way he wanted it, Lucas fell out of favour as a first eleven player.

I wouldn't look too much into what Klopp did when he first arrived. Hell, he gave Ibe a lot of game time last season and everyone thought he loved him but he was shipped out first opportunity. I expect Lucas will also move on at the end of this season, as I'd be surprised if we offered him another contract and I'd imagine he probably fancies his chances of regular football elsewhere, so we'll need a new CB sooner rather than later anyway. Personally I think it's pretty much urgent and needs to be addressed in January if we are do well this year.

Offline Cormack Snr

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Re: The rejuvenated defence thread
« Reply #234 on: December 4, 2016, 08:51:30 pm »
Our midfield became a sieve. Besides being our DM, Henderson is our captain, should he be 'falling apart'?



If Henderson was at any other club, how many of us would honestly be craving to sign him..

Offline Barefoot Doctor

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Re: The rejuvenated defence thread
« Reply #235 on: December 4, 2016, 10:30:06 pm »
Was Kevin Stewart injured? If not, silly to have two fullbacks on the bench and not him - bring him on at 3-1 and I'd fancy us to see out the game, and certainly not lose it.

Offline rscanderlech

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Re: The rejuvenated defence thread
« Reply #236 on: December 4, 2016, 11:26:53 pm »
Ehm what? Have you ever actually seen Van Dijk? He's a fucking monster. He's 6 foot 4.
Van Dijk is 6ft 4...
Touché.

We should sign him!
(Or Jonathan Tah or some other cheaper option.)

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Re: The rejuvenated defence thread
« Reply #237 on: December 4, 2016, 11:35:21 pm »
Touché.

We should sign him!
(Or Jonathan Tah or some other cheaper option.)

From most reports Tah would be cheaper but not by all that much. I do think it's imperative though that we get in a properly dominant defender to start alongside Matip though. Lovren is absolutely fine as a third choice CB, but I don't think he quite cuts the mustard as a first-choice for a team that wants to challenge at the top, just has too many days like today. Then we can have Gomez as fourth choice (next season) and Klavan as the older, wise experienced head who doesn't have to play much - the Kolo Toure if you will.

Offline rscanderlech

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Re: The rejuvenated defence thread
« Reply #238 on: December 4, 2016, 11:51:05 pm »
From most reports Tah would be cheaper but not by all that much. I do think it's imperative though that we get in a properly dominant defender to start alongside Matip though. Lovren is absolutely fine as a third choice CB, but I don't think he quite cuts the mustard as a first-choice for a team that wants to challenge at the top, just has too many days like today. Then we can have Gomez as fourth choice (next season) and Klavan as the older, wise experienced head who doesn't have to play much - the Kolo Toure if you will.
Quite right. I know Ive hurt my reputation in here for misjudging Van dijk's height (which happened because I once looked it up whilst he was playing and I tried to convert the metric height into imperial in my head while doing one or two other things at the same time...), but: I feared that our defence is too reliant on Matip, even if that is still better than last year. In my view Matip, along Milner, has become our most important player, because their replacements cause such a huge drop in standards.

Offline MiserableP15

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Re: The rejuvenated defence thread
« Reply #239 on: December 4, 2016, 11:55:40 pm »
Lucas as CB at home I get.

Lucas at CB in a difficult away game I don't get. Call me old fashioned but in this league, away from home, I like my CBs toothless and gnarly.
"So Bierhoff’s got a short time to press his claims, now that the other two strikers who started the match have both been taken off……Kuntz."