Topic: Grenfell Tower Fire

[WhereAngelsPlay]

Can one of the more technically gifted guys embed this video for me please?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yQLIlIetDM

This is a fire in a residential tower block in France in 2009, the description says the cladding was made from Polystyrene, regardless or not if thats true, it is clearly flammable.

The speed in which this fire spreads upwards is horrendous and clearly very similar to what happened in London.

Yeah you get polystyrene walls/cladding,I love working with it as it is light as shit compared to rockwool,it is mainly used for inside walls in factories and coldstores if the company are wanting a job done on the cheap.

[Alan_X]

Decent summary that. Interesting that Alan has experience, albeit not in residential, and he didn't know of their effectiveness. On balance though, as landlords of high-rise residential properties, they owed a greater duty of care to tenants. Looks pretty damning considering major renovations were carried out recently.

I'm aware of the effectiveness of sprinklers. We do a lot of work on large department stores which are all sprinklered. The fact is none of us know what the cause of this fire was or what contributed to the rapid spread. Having looked at the photos of the damage and the debris it looks like the cladding contributed in some way.

As Albie says this is going to affect construction and fire design but how we don't know until after the investigation and reports. I'll wait until we know before allocating blame.

[Alan_X]

Is it possible that the fire got behind the cladding?  If there was a gap could it have funnelled the flames through a narrow airspace?  What if the cladding was only fireproof on one side?

That's possibly what happened.

[۩ Imperator ۩]

History tells us that when dozens of largely working class people are killed in an avoidable tragedy where somebody is criminally culpable, the cover-up begins within hours. You can almost hear the sound of documents being shredded, the hum of HDDs being formatted, the click of emails being deleted at RBKC Council offices. Meetings of freemasons will be cooking up schemes to pin the blame on someone smoking in a no smoking area, or on individual workmen who worked on the project as opposed to the overseers who cut the corners.

[SP]

History tells us that when dozens of largely working class people are killed in an avoidable tragedy where somebody is criminally culpable, the cover-up begins within hours. You can almost hear the sound of documents being shredded, the hum of HDDs being formatted, the click of emails being deleted at RBKC Council offices. Meetings of freemasons will be cooking up schemes to pin the blame on someone smoking in a no smoking area, or on individual workmen who worked on the project as opposed to the overseers who cut the corners.

I'm hopeful the government having their balls on the line over firemen numbers will give them some impetus to fine a big bad corporation to blame. The design failure narrative is also likely to push them into action over making changes to prevent a recurrence. With their precarious majority it is one of the few things they could legislate for with worrying about the numbers. The government is too weak to sweep too much under the carpet.

[Trada]

The ITV news report is really harrowing lots of footage and stories I hadn't seen/heard before.

[So… Howard Philips]

History tells us that when dozens of largely working class people are killed in an avoidable tragedy where somebody is criminally culpable, the cover-up begins within hours. You can almost hear the sound of documents being shredded, the hum of HDDs being formatted, the click of emails being deleted at RBKC Council offices. Meetings of freemasons will be cooking up schemes to pin the blame on someone smoking in a no smoking area, or on individual workmen who worked on the project as opposed to the overseers who cut the corners.

Sadly that was one of my first thoughts.

Looking at the live feed from BBC the building is still on fire. It's horrendous.

[Mister Flip Flop]

I just wanted to say Sky news are utter cnuts. Carrying out their 10 o'clock newscast with the presenter standing in front of the building whilst it's still in flames and full well knowing people are watching with family members still inside is utterly sickening. I have never given a penny of my hard earned wages to sky for their football subs and this just reinforces my intention to never do so. Fuck Murdoch and Fuck Sky media. 

[WhereAngelsPlay]

After watching the news and taking into consideration that Rydon felt the need to remove any mention of fire prevention from their statement (the news never picked that up and ran with the original) I have no doubt that had the core of the panels been rockwool we would not be watching what we are.

The fire brigade was onsite in 8 minutes and it was already an inferno ffs.

[TepidT2O]

After watching the news and taking into consideration that Rydon felt the need to remove any mention of fire prevention from their statement (the news never picked that up and ran with the original) I have no doubt that had the core of the panels been rockwool we would not be watching what we are.

The fire brigade was onsite in 8 minutes and it was already an inferno ffs.

It may of course have been an inferno when they were called....

[WhereAngelsPlay]

It may of course have been an inferno when they were called....

Maybe so & if that was the case it is 100% the fault of the cladding.Just look at the state of the building now,would not have happened had they used rockwool.

l am so angry.

[cdav]

The stories are just horrific, but it is very heartening to see the community spirit by everyone in the local area.

Really worrying that there is so many missing- the death toll could sadly be very high with this

[WhereAngelsPlay]

That George Clarke off ch4 was just on newsnight and he feels that anyone over the 14th wouldn't have survived,hopefully many of them were woken by the piss poor fire alarms.

[Trada]

Newnight "24 floors of London's poorest burning in their homes in one of the wealthiest places on earth..."

From what someone said after he talked to a fireman and what he saw it sounds like the death toll could be very high.

[Trada]

People in Grenfell Tower wanted to take on the landlords in court about the risk of fire. but they couldn't afford it and they couldn't legal aid because of cuts and changes to legal aid rules.

[SP]

From the numbers of flats and the relatively low numbers treated in hospital, it looks likely that the death toll will climb. I suspect the initial death toll was the jumpers and people who died after leaving the building. Retrieving corpses from inside can wait until the fire is completely out and they are sure the building is safe.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

The cladding was made by Reynobond & newsnight are saying that rydon went with the cheaper option.

[TepidT2O]

The cladding was made by Reynobond & newsnight are saying that rydon went with the cheaper option.

A video of a fire in France with the same cladding.... somewhat eerily similar

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KHZfLDxYBuU

[Trada]

 EL4C‏ @EL4JC

UTTERLY SHOCKING. Pilgrim Tucker, of #GrenfellTower Action details how residents concerns over safety have been treated. All for profit.

Video

https://twitter.com/EL4JC/status/875109518107193344

[Sarge]

This is what a hero looks like.

[jDJ]

History tells us that when dozens of largely working class people are killed in an avoidable tragedy where somebody is criminally culpable, the cover-up begins within hours. You can almost hear the sound of documents being shredded, the hum of HDDs being formatted, the click of emails being deleted at RBKC Council offices. Meetings of freemasons will be cooking up schemes to pin the blame on someone smoking in a no smoking area, or on individual workmen who worked on the project as opposed to the overseers who cut the corners.

Someone smoking in the wrong area? I don't think you understand how this type of incident is investigated these days. Spoiler alert: the Freemasons won't be involved.

[cdav]

This is what a hero looks like.

Yes they are absolute heroes- and I hope they get all the help and support they need now, it must be horrible what they have seen and had to knowingly go into.

[Trada]

I see some paper are reporting that the cladding was used, was so it didn't look like a eye sore to nearby luxury flats.

[Nobby Reserve]

People in Grenfell Tower wanted to take on the landlords in court about the risk of fire. but they couldn't afford it and they couldn't legal aid because of cuts and changes to legal aid rules.

Metro are reporting that, perversely, the main guy behind the Grenfell Action Group was himself threatened with legal action by Kensington and Chelsea Tenant Management Organisation/Kensington and Chelsea Council for 'defamation & harassment' after blogging about & publicising the sadly justified concerns.

http://metro.co.uk/2017/06/14/council-threatened-blogger-with-legal-action-over-grenfell-tower-warnings-6708453/

[stoa]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/people-sharing-lies-hero-grenfell-10622172

This is annoying. People making up and spreading malicious shite that's so nonsensical and passing it for fact.  The Firefighters going in their multiple times will be working in unimaginable heat with their core body temp rising to the point where they will be risking temporary mental and physical impairment, they'll  have been in immense physical danger some of them making it as high as the 20th floor to get people out, in an inferno and people making up shit on the internet like they took 2 hours to arrive.

As you have insight into firefighting could you comment on the number of firefighters that have been involved here? Because as a layman with only very little knowledge 200 firefighters seem to be a pretty low number for a scenario like this. I mean it is a massive building and there was a huge blaze that is still not fully extinguished. Or doesn't it make sense to have more people there because there's only limited room to work?

I only know a bit about how firefighting works here in Austria, but we have a system based on volunteer firefighters, which will will probably be very different to professionals.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

45 engines

[Sarge]

Yes they are absolute heroes- and I hope they get all the help and support they need now, it must be horrible what they have seen and had to knowingly go into.

Too right (I come from a long line of Fire Fighters, not me) and they do a hell of a job.

[cdav]

Brilliant article (yet again) by Tony Barrett:

https://www.joe.co.uk/news/why-it-is-vital-to-amplify-the-distraught-voices-of-grenfell-tower-residents-who-were-ignored-for-too-long-129580

[John C]

This is what a hero looks like.

That's a superb picture. I was astonished to learn that those brave and highly trained lads had reached the top of the block by mid-afternoon. Just comprehend that for a fucking second. Unbelievable bravery and dedication.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

That's a superb picture. I was astonished to learn that those brave and highly trained lads had reached the top of the block by mid-afternoon. Just comprehend that for a fucking second. Unbelievable bravery and dedication.

Imagine the horrors & yet the gov attacks them if they dare to strike.

[Nobby Reserve]

Imagine the horrors & yet the gov attacks them if they dare to strike.

Not just striking for more pay or for the sake of it, but striking to protect numbers to maintain safe staffing levels, or to stop their contractual pension arrangements being taken away from them.

[Big Red Richie]

I can not even imagine the sheer carnage of the grizzly scenes that those men and women of the emergency services are going to encounter over the next few days.

To locate, count, and remove what's left of peoples remains.  The sheer intensity of the fire, will in many cases barely of left very little to identify anybody. Bar the dental evidence.

They really, really,  aren't paid enough.

[MKB]

They really, really,  aren't paid enough.

According to Google: "The starting salary for a trainee firefighter is £22,017. When full competence is achieved, this rises to £29,345. Higher rates apply for overtime. Crew manager salaries range from £31,189 (development) to £32,533 (competent)."

They are shamefully low figures for what they do.

[TepidT2O]

I see some paper are reporting that the cladding was used, was so it didn't look like a eye sore to nearby luxury flats.

People were reportedly renting some of these flats for £2000 a month... the definition of luxury is very loose in London.  Besides, making things look better benefits everyone. 
Just as long as it's not flammable of course

[Mister Flip Flop]

This is what a hero looks like.

Check out this firemans tweet and his response to the first reply. Epic hero.


https://twitter.com/crispymick/status/874999483326754817

[Trada]

Check out this firemans tweet and his response to the first reply. Epic hero.


https://twitter.com/crispymick/status/874999483326754817

Yes a brilliant reply

[Trada]

I think this will come back to haunt Boris if he trys to become leader at some point.

When asked about the cuts in the fire service.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/PThUgYQgqjY" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/PThUgYQgqjY</a>

[Red Beret]

Had a Facebook article saying 10 fire stations just closed in London due to cuts?

Fuck Brexit, this should be what brings down the government. 

[Trada]

Had a Facebook article saying 10 fire stations just closed in London due to cuts?

Fuck Brexit, this should be what brings down the government. 

There are pictures of fireman crying when their station was closed.

[Peabee]

People were reportedly renting some of these flats for £2000 a month... the definition of luxury is very loose in London.  Besides, making things look better benefits everyone. 
Just as long as it's not flammable of course

£2000/month ain't luxury in London.  Especially Kensington.   It's actually cheap for Kensington.

There will be some paying that as some people would have bought and sold their council flats, but let's not let what some people were paying distract from the possible fact they used cheap flammable cladding to make the flats look 'nicer'.  It will be fucking travesty if that is the case.   The death toll may be huge.