Author Topic: Roundtable: Hoffenheim vs. Liverpool  (Read 24040 times)

Offline BabuYagu

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Roundtable: Hoffenheim vs. Liverpool
« on: August 16, 2017, 05:11:34 pm »
So that was one of the most tactically impressive performance I have seen in Europe - by Hoffenheim. I liked them before the game and, in my pre-match write up, highlighted some of the ways they would look to disrupt our shape based on what I had seen in a handful of Bundesliga games. Although I suspect most of it was based on the Dortmund game in May as they are a good match to us in similarities. Their coach is brilliant and will go far in the game I suspect. I think I have a new favourite Bundesliga side to follow for next season too.

Firstly, that is one of the best drilled sides I have seen in attacking play. They constantly found ways to create underloads on our right and then switch to overloads on our left - ironically the thing I was tipping us to do this season with our two pacey inside forwards.

Their build up play, for example, would drag Salah out of position. Then when a midfielder stepped into that area of the pitch the rest of our midfield narrowed and shifted across. This created a huge hole all night in front of Lovren & Moreno and they exploited this time and again.

At least - thatīs what I felt when I first saw the game.

I then went back and looked at some of it again and realised Klopp just let it happen. I know that is a really weird thing to suggest but if you look at how strong we make our right side and weak we make our left by comparison you have to conclude that we are actually doing it, by choice. Also we direct all traffic down that weaker left side. Thatīs weird too right, but go back and watch any 5 minute segment of the game again and watch how players curve their pressing runs right to curve left, this naturally turns opponents to our left side to play.

Now, something that can hold people back from better understanding football is pre-conceived opinions and ideas about certain things and players. The end result is you look for evidence to support what you think rather than look at the whole picture with no theory to prove. So I want you all to bin those things you believe to be true about Liverpool and certain players for the time being. The reason being I want us to collectively arrive at some answers to make sense of what Klopp was doing, because I was somewhat baffled. I donīt mean that in a negative way in that his choices make no sense like Hodgson, I mean that tactically there was a lot of very very high level tactical things happening in that game which will easily just pass over your head unless you are looking out for them.

I personally know just enough to know that all the simplistic conclusions we arrive about certain players today are, in the main, wrong. (e.g. Bobby doesnīt score enough, Lovren & Moreno are liabilities). I also know enough to be able to ask the right questions that might help us find the right answers. But more than anything else, I know enough to know that game was a tactical masterclass from two sides, most of which will have gone right over my head. I did see some things that I will share with you and hopefully others will have spotted some things to help us fill in the blanks.

First of all - I think we we donīt want to be attacked down our right flank and over compensate for that to discourage it from happening. One possible reason could be that Klopp mentions in the press multiple times how weak TAA is defensively makes me wonder exactly how true that is and to what extent we are minimizing his work defensively? 

But then if you look at last season, Milner got through almost twice as much work defensively as Clyne also and I am sure nobody would suggest Clyne is a weak full back defensively that needs protecting. Therefore I believe this is our first pressing trap. Klopp did the same at Dortmund, creating a hole in his formation on one side of the pitch, staggering his formation around it and then ambushing the ball as soon

If you put aside any opinions on our players for a minute and just look at this tactically. Just look at what we did and ask why.



This is really interesting for example. Most believe Moreno is a liability, and yet we get Mane to offer him literally no support at all. Look at Mane v Kaderábek (RWB) on our left compared to Salah v Zuber (LWB) on our right. It was very clear watching the game that Salah would stay goal side of Zuber all night and not let him get at TAA. Therefore there was never an overload on TAA on that side. This was especially weird because Zuber is right footed. If you want any wing back to have time on the ball it would be the inverted one who is likely to come back in on his weak foot, or play floated, aimless left football balls into the box. I semi expected us to direct traffic down our right for that reason and yet we did the exact opposite. We both weakened the left side by leaving Mane high and wide against Bicakcic (their RCB). We also directed all attacks down that weaker side.

We did this by congesting play on the right to such an extent that attacking our left was the only viable option. Therefore the most common pattern of the game was for them to slowly attack down our right, wait for our midfield to filter across gradually, and then switch to Kaderábek who stayed as wide as possible to either always be free for a switch or, when Moreno shifted across to negate this, would leave a huge hole in the left half space between Lovren and Moreno for someone (Either Rupp, Gnabry or Kramaric) to attack. In the end (probably by Kloppīs instruction) he kept his starting position narrow to minimise the impact of those runs off the back of Lovren. So while the heat maps for the game will be more to the right side, it's quite misleading as in reality, all their attacks happened on the left.

Regardless of your feelings on individual players, itīs clear we decided to overload Lovren and Moreno, not Hoffenheim. Hoffenheim didn't leave Mane high up the pitch and Salah deep protecting TAA. When the a midfielder shifted up the pitch to press - we narrowed and protected the right, not the left where we just left hole. That has to be a tactical decision, right? So Can and Salah both screened brilliantly in front of TAA. Moreno had no support at all from anybody all night. And itīs easy to see and make a tactical shift to prevent it, Klopp chose not to. Which means he wanted it to happen. Why? I have no idea. Itīs incredibly risky and placing an exceptionally large amount of faith in Lovren and Moreno to sort that out between them.



My instinct after the game also was that man of the match was Mane. He murdered Bicakcic all night long. But then itīs now quite easy to see why Mane was man of the match. Had no defensive responsibility at all. His only job last night way to stay high up the pitch and destroy Bicakcic all night. He did that perfectly but we do tend to focus on positive attacking play when making a call for man of the match so clearly Mane was always going to be that guy based on the tactical decisions we made. He was excellent though and showed once again why he would be handful for any side to have to deal with. As much as we left their RWB to exploit our left side, the likewise didnīt pull him back to watch Mane at any point during the game either. So both sides were willing to take a risk on that side of the pitch.



Risk vs Reward


I therefore propose that the above was the ultimate goal of Klopp last night. He accepted the that Hoffenheim are a good side and attack in numbers. He accepted they would get chances against us and therefore tried to have an element of control over where and what type of chances Hoffenheim could create. He tried to control where they would have their underloads and overloads. We can infer this by the tactical decisions of Mane, Salah, the midfield 3 & Moreno. The boxes above on the heat map are the consequence of our tactics. 

White: Basically the white square is the area of the pitch we wanted them to have no attacks in. We put a wall up in front of the box here that they found almost impermeable. Ironically, their goal came from the one time we allowed them any space here at all which does in a way support this theory that this area was the most important part of the pitch to protect.

Black: The black square is the "zone of death". Itīs the area of the pitch that has the most possession won by Liverpool in any specific area (the image on the right is all Liverpool possession wins) and also had the least touches by a Hoffenheim player in comparison. This is the pressing trap I referred to before. Anything into this left half space we ambushed hard and aggressive to win the ball and set Mane away.

Red: The red squares is the risk vs reward. We accepted they would have some success on our left due to leaving Mane up field and our midfield shifting right. However, we banked on Mane being far more dangerous attacking them in their red square compared to them attacking ours and this proved to be the case. It was a very ballsy strategy by Klopp but with away goals being so valuable, itīs clearly a risk he was willing to accept for the reward of some away goals to take back to Anfield. I suspect he wonīt be so adventurous in the home leg.




Their player who actually impressed me most was Demirbay. I loved how Hoffenheim used a different runner each time off the back of Lovren. That is really hard to adjust to because, for example, if Kramaric is the one attacking behind Lovren, Lovren starts instinctively looking for him on the pitch and making sure he can always see him. But Kramaric, Rupp & Gnabry were all taking turns to make that run and they set it up in different ways each time too. Demirbay was always the one who would find those runs with some quick passing or switch passes. He also put in a huge shift defensively too. I worried about the Gnabry-Kramaric-Rupp-Demirbay four in the middle of the pitch defensively. They are all more attack minded than defence and thought without a proper six behind them we would expose them here, but we never really did. Not sure whether that was a failing of our midfield in terms of creativity (we miss Lallana hard!) or just good play by Demirbay & Rupp... I suspect a little of both. I did call Demirbay as the key man before the game and he was every bit as dangerous as I feared - although we didnīt really see his direct free kicks and long range shooting - yet.




A word on Mignolet. I was worried before the game that the Migs who ended the game on Saturday would be the Migs who started this one looking a little rattled to say the least. But he was excellent. I have seen people discredit that penalty save but I remember a goalkeeper once saying that the easy penalty saves are usually a result of bravery to stand up and not make the penalty takers mind up for him. If the taker is running up to the ball waiting for the keeper to move first, he ends up fluffing the penalty if the keeper stands tall. So well done Mr Mignolet and he built a very confidence performance on that moment of bravery.




Awww, look at the little kid holding Kloppīs hand! :D

I want to end talking a little about Trent Alexander-Arnold. I thought he was excellent last night. I am starting to realise more and more we don't need Clyne. Heīs an outstanding defensive full back who can attack if needed, playing in a system which probably doesn't need one. Throughout last season and the beginning of this one, itīs clear we encourage attacks down our left side where we position our most aggressive defenders to attack the ball and launch counters. Lallana is usually on the right who is excellent at pressing play away from his side of the pitch. Gini on the left of midfield is probably our best transitions player in the squad who will be the midfielder to either initiate turnovers or launch counter on that side of the pitch. This would also make sense why Keita was targeted even more as in terms of tackles, interceptions and recoveries he is world class and does everything at high pace. He would be a perfect transition player for us on the left of midfield.

Therefore TAAīs defensive weaknesses that Klopp mentions are rarely exposed. Last night for example, he was beaten a few times and was responsible for our goal in the relatively small number of times he was exposed but he offers us so much going forward that makes that an acceptable risk to take. He beat his man four times down the left side of the pitch yesterday for example. To put that into perspective, Mane averaged 2.5 completed dribbles per game last season on that side of the pitch. And this is important because against a low block, attacking defenders with the ball and committing them to an action is the best way to break it down. Especially with full backs as itīs a run from a deeper area, coming in at an angle and leaves the better attacking players free to move off him into the space his dribble creates. He created 2 goalscoring opportunities at the weekend against Watford, for example. To put that into perspective, Mane was averaging 1.6 chances created per game last season.

That doesnīt mean I am advocating we get rid of Clyne or that he shouldn't be first choice now. More that how you can see in our system someone like TAA will be far more useful to us than Clyne in the long run. Once he gets his defensive game to the level Klopp seems to have set for him, I suspect we'll see him become a permanent fixture in the side. Exciting times for the kid.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2017, 06:13:38 pm by BabuYagu »
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Offline BabuYagu

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Re: Roundtable: Hoffenheim vs. Liverpool
« Reply #1 on: August 16, 2017, 05:29:59 pm »
Oh and just to add, look at the positional map above. Is that 4-D-2 or 4-3-3? Is Firmino therefore a striker or midfielder?

This is one of the points I would like those who knock Firmino as a goalscorer to take on board. He isnīt a striker. Just because sky sports put him in that position on the graphics at the start of the match doesnīt change that. If you average out positions during the game, he is a #10. He drops off the front line and leaves that central space for Mane & Salah (the goalscorers) to attack. We also have a higher than average goal output from midfielders (e.g. Gini & Lallana) who also benefit from attacking this space also.

If we started with Mane and Salah as strikers, they would then have to deal with the center backs and congest that area of the goal. Hence why the term "False #9" exists. He plays up against the center backs just enough to have their attention. He then wanders into his true position of a #10 often with a center back stepping out with him.

The idea that a #9 type player would benefit us most is something of a fallacy. The system works best due to this space Firmino's unselfish movement makes. A more traditional striker will stay in between the posts occupying the space of the pitch in which most goals are scored from. Therefore while the #9 himself will likely see more of the ball - he will likely be well marked due to the reduced movement - plus there is no space for the runners from wide and midfield to attack.

A good example of this is United last season. I donīt care what anybody says, Martial, Rashford, Mkhitaryan, Mata, Lingard and Rooney all have goals in them. And yet they were comfortably outscored by Mane, Coutinho, Gini, Can and Lallana. A cursory glance at the shotmap of Martial at Monaco shows something similar to Mane - shots congested in areas between the posts with good goal return. Whereas if you look at his shots at United, they are all to the left side of the box at tight angles and further from goal due to Ibrahimovic occupying that central area as a traditional #9.

Basically, Klopp has built a system which will give us goal output rather than being reliant on a particular player. The principal playmaker in this system is Firmino and the principal goalscorers are Mane & Salah. Firmino is failing at his job when the systems stops creating a high volume of good chances in central areas each game. A good example of this is this goal James scores against Barcelona.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/wA891A9SGtw" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/wA891A9SGtw</a>

Ronaldo, statistically, does nothing in this goal. Yet he is the most important person involved. His run to the front post, then back post, catches the attention of Pique and drags him away from the near post where James runs into an acre of space unmarked to score. If Ronaldo plays as a #9 there, he stays on that post for the cross and then competes with Pique to get a shot off with a much lower success rate. Over the course of the season, Ronaldo would personally get more goals doing that, but the system overall would not.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2017, 05:35:24 pm by BabuYagu »
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Offline lamonti

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Re: Roundtable: Hoffenheim vs. Liverpool
« Reply #2 on: August 16, 2017, 06:10:20 pm »
Really interesting read.

Offline wige

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Re: Roundtable: Hoffenheim vs. Liverpool
« Reply #3 on: August 16, 2017, 06:15:11 pm »
I personally know just enough to know that all the simplistic conclusions we arrive about certain players today are, in the main, wrong. (e.g. Bobby doesnīt score enough, Lovren & Moreno are liabilities). I also know enough to be able to ask the right questions that might help us find the right answers. But more than anything else, I know enough to know that game was a tactical masterclass from two sides, most of which will have gone right over my head. I did see some things that I will share with you and hopefully others will have spotted some things to help us fill in the blanks.

And I know enough about myself to realise I know nothing of the sort of intricacies that you've so brilliantly written about. Excellent post, was a pleasure to read it.

Something I see as a trend, and I mentioned it in the post match, is what I deem to be a lack of ruthlessness amongst the team. Whether that was failing to put 10 past Watford last season, scoring the 2nd earlier last night, or getting the third when we had clear chances, the end result is the unnecessary pressure on the team in those last 5-15 minutes. At this point the losing, or weaker, team is willing to throw everything they've got to rescue a point. If we've killed a game at 3-0, those last desperate moments don't happen, in my opinion.

The other area I think we could work on, is general game control. The ability to just take the sting, and 20 minutes, out of a match. Neil Atkinson talks about this regularly on TAW player, and it's something I completely agree with, especially with the majority of my footballing education being based on Rafa's sides.

I think, if we start taking a higher percentage of the chances we have at 1-0 and 2-0, then the control is less of a factor, as the opposition is quite likely, generally, demoralised at a 3-0. I guess the question is whether you (and others) agree? And whether the control aspect is an quality that Klopp looks to instill in his teams? Did his Dortmund team ever develop that?

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Re: Roundtable: Hoffenheim vs. Liverpool
« Reply #4 on: August 16, 2017, 06:16:32 pm »
Whew! Thanks Babu.

Much food for thought.

:wellin

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Re: Roundtable: Hoffenheim vs. Liverpool
« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2017, 06:32:28 pm »
Thank you! That was a really good post, explaining a lot of things. I really appreciate these kinds of posts. I encourage people to read it. All of it.

        * * * * * *


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Offline lamonti

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Re: Roundtable: Hoffenheim vs. Liverpool
« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2017, 06:54:00 pm »

Something I see as a trend, and I mentioned it in the post match, is what I deem to be a lack of ruthlessness amongst the team. Whether that was failing to put 10 past Watford last season, scoring the 2nd earlier last night, or getting the third when we had clear chances, the end result is the unnecessary pressure on the team in those last 5-15 minutes. At this point the losing, or weaker, team is willing to throw everything they've got to rescue a point. If we've killed a game at 3-0, those last desperate moments don't happen, in my opinion.


I agree with this so much. It feels like we are as intense in the big chance moments because we know we'll create another great one in a few minutes time. Could certainly have put away Watford and Hoffenheim in the 70-80 mark in both games.

Offline BabuYagu

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Re: Roundtable: Hoffenheim vs. Liverpool
« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2017, 07:06:47 pm »
And I know enough about myself to realise I know nothing of the sort of intricacies that you've so brilliantly written about. Excellent post, was a pleasure to read it.

Something I see as a trend, and I mentioned it in the post match, is what I deem to be a lack of ruthlessness amongst the team. Whether that was failing to put 10 past Watford last season, scoring the 2nd earlier last night, or getting the third when we had clear chances, the end result is the unnecessary pressure on the team in those last 5-15 minutes. At this point the losing, or weaker, team is willing to throw everything they've got to rescue a point. If we've killed a game at 3-0, those last desperate moments don't happen, in my opinion.

The other area I think we could work on, is general game control. The ability to just take the sting, and 20 minutes, out of a match. Neil Atkinson talks about this regularly on TAW player, and it's something I completely agree with, especially with the majority of my footballing education being based on Rafa's sides.

I think, if we start taking a higher percentage of the chances we have at 1-0 and 2-0, then the control is less of a factor, as the opposition is quite likely, generally, demoralised at a 3-0. I guess the question is whether you (and others) agree? And whether the control aspect is an quality that Klopp looks to instill in his teams? Did his Dortmund team ever develop that?

I think what we lack, that Dortmund had, was a ruthless goalscorer. Someone who would get a big chance to kill a game and put it away. None of our best XI are traditional goalscorers (maybe Mane?). However, when we are ahead and being more conservative, he is likely to be found stalking a full back rather than trying to sniff out a goal the way Lewandowski (or Barrios before him) would have.

I think Solanke will be that player as we saw that from him in pre-season. He had very few chances, but whatever ones he did have he just put them away. The dynamic changes in games when you are ahead, center backs are higher up the pitch and straight line speed (e.g. Lukaku) is more useful than agility & speed on the turn (Salah). Therefore a more physical striker with a high top speed like Lukaku, Lewandowski, Costa will be very useful here in terms of playing up against the center halves, bullying them, and taking any chances they sniff out. Torres was this man for Rafa, a player blessed with both that agility and speed on the turn and that ability to ruin center backs in a physical battle and race to the ball over the top.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/wlCgRp43HRU" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/wlCgRp43HRU</a>

Our system at the moment is designed to ruin teams and create a high volume of good chances which players like Salah, Mane and Bobby are crucial too. The problem for us is this system works best with Bobby as false #9. When we had  Benteke instead of Bobby, he would personally have better numbers but the output of the system as a whole got slashed dramatically. Even now, when we have Origi or Sturridge instead of Bobby, their numbers are better but the expected goals output of our attack as a whole falls by about 25-30%.

I imagine if we could get Costa (for example) that would be ideal. But a Costa level player isnīt going to sit on the bench and watch Firmino get us ahead in a game to come off the bench at the end to ruin the tired defenders. So last season we mostly used Origi for this role. I looked back and saw that Origi has come off the bench for us around a dozen times when 1 goal ahead. In total we are probably talking about 180 minutes worth of football there. In those games he has 4 goals and 1 assist.

I think Solanke could be even better still though. He just seems tactically a lot smarter than Origi and far more ruthless. Itīs a lot to place on a kids shoulders, but there it is. And of course, if he grows into something similar to a Diego Costa type talent, we have seen with Lewandowski at Dortmund that Klopp could certainly rebuild his tactical shape around a more traditional #9 with Bobby likely playing in one of the wide forward roles or a 10 if he reverts back to the Dortmund 4-2-3-1.

So that is how we would be better suited to kill games. The other side of that is how we shut games down. Ideally I would like us to have a compact shape that forgets about pressing traps and focuses on just being solid. This is easier at Dortmund as you can just plonk Kehl & Bender in front of the defence and have them fuck off the attacks. But our midfield is built more for active defending (pressing) rather than passive defending. We have the likes of Milner, Moreno & TAA now who can sit in front of a full back and offer a better defensive base in wide areas but we donīt really have that through the middle at the moment. I am honestly not sure the solution here.

The starting point is obviously moving to a double 6 in those moments. I would even have a double 8 in front of them too with the wingers staying high and wide to press the center backs and track the full bak on whatever side they attack down. The other winger then shifts across as a loan striker in those moment to counter. Vogt of Hoffenheim is a possible solution for the #6. He looked outstanding last night, often plays as a #6 and gives us depth at center back. He is someone you could put in front of the defence like Kehl to shut a game down through the middle. I would like to have a Kehl-like player we could use like that. I remember when Klopp first arrived we have Toure, Skrtel, Lovren & Caulker each have a run at the end of games in this role. It became a running joke of mine in round tables "Toure - our new DM?"

Last night, I think we kept pushing for the 3rd goal rather than shut the game down at 2-0. Easy to say in hindsight that was a mistake but I would argue that up until their goal we always looked by far the most likely to get another goal. You canīt criticise that risk given that itīs Kloppīs approach to risk that put us ahead in the tie to begin with. You cannot chose which risks are acceptable or not based on outcomes. You can only assess the decision made and in those instances I will tend to always back Klopp, even when it doesn't come off because you can't rejoice having a brave world class coach and then moan when his bravery costs us a goal.
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Offline A Day 2 Remember

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Re: Roundtable: Hoffenheim vs. Liverpool
« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2017, 07:34:09 pm »
Great breakdown. Both of our games this season we looked like a baby giraffe trying to walk on ice when it came to defending our left hand side. It was confusing to see but understanding this was by design makes sense of the situation. Seeing Klopp occasionally ordering Mane to make a recovery run to help Moreno was also puzzling me as we have become used to such a well drill defensive effort that you rarely see players out of position. It now makes sense as Mane was actually not out of position it was just that Klopp spotted something he did not like and then got Mane to make a recovery run to help out.

Moreno is a lot more focused this year on holding up the ball carrier. He is not as aggressive to win the ball back early and is delaying the build up which prevents him from looking so clueless. Not sure is Klopp has asked him to be less aggressive or if he is just standing up the ball carrier more on his own fruition.

Having Mane be the thorn in the opposition side is a smart move and makes for an enjoyable open game. It is a massive improvement on watching Mourinho coached team. It does make the game 90 minutes of nail biting hell at times but surely this is why we watch sports. Will it allow us to win trophies, time will tell I guess but in the mean time it's good to watch.
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Re: Roundtable: Hoffenheim vs. Liverpool
« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2017, 07:45:16 pm »
Babu tremendous analysis. Did you study coaching methods or are you more of guy who just likes to go into depth on a given subject and really pull out the details?
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Re: Roundtable: Hoffenheim vs. Liverpool
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2017, 08:05:05 pm »
Fantastic analysis! The effort that was no doubt involved much appreciated.

You mention a little about last season with Milner and Clyne, perhaps implying that we generally allow more space down our left flank for attacks.

So I guess I'm curious how much of these tactics is our 'standard' approach under Klopp vs specific for Hoffenheim. Or is this one of n approaches we use for a certain type of opposition. Were there parallels with how we played against Watford, for instance. And would you expect something similar in the home leg? Do we have the ability to flip this, leaving those spaces on our right flank, if that made sense for a certain opposition?

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Re: Roundtable: Hoffenheim vs. Liverpool
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2017, 08:06:14 pm »
Babu tremendous analysis. Did you study coaching methods or are you more of guy who just likes to go into depth on a given subject and really pull out the details?

A few years back I realised I understood very little that the likes of Phase of Play, Lankyguy, Royhendo and others meant when going into detail. So i downloaded a bunch of ebooks and started following a lot of tactically heavy blogs and read them when I found pockets of time. You very quickly realise how little you know. The worst thing though is realising that lots of pundits on TV, who apparently have coaching licences which would require them to understand the things I was reading about, either have no idea (in which case they got licences despite not knowing the material) or avoid tactical answers to questions to appease and dumb down the target audience but know they are full of shite.

The former is probably the truth. I remember Phase of Play for example talking about the cronyism in this country where the likes of Tim Sherwood or Ryan Giggs get coaching licences and jobs that their knowledge and experience donīt justify. He gave the example of the likes of Marco van Basten failing initially his coaching licences in Holland. He listed other elite players in France, Germany and Spain who didnīt get a "turning up" award of their coaching licence the way some do in England. Which largely explains the failure of British ex-players as managers here.

I genuinely know very very little about football tactically and have no real hands on experience either. I just know enough to see that the overly simplified criticisms people have of players are mostly false. That there are usually very complex reasons to explain things which a manager like Klopp will do.

A friend recently posted this on RAWK which nicely explains where we are at. I will use a different image than he does to explain it though.



I would be in humility valley. I know enough to know that say I know almost nothing at all. Or more accurately in terms of RAWK, I know enough to know all the people who believe football is very simple, Moreno is shite, Lovren shite, and they have the answer to our failings are definitely wrong. The next step for me would be to quit my job, properly invest time into understanding this in depth rather than the basics and start trying to work on this area on some level to properly test my knowledge.

Almost everybody on RAWK who is insisting on their simple answers to our problems are on mount stupid. :D Most of their arguments will start with "I don't care what you say/evidence you have... I know that (insert opinion here that is supported with zero study or hands on coaching experience".
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Re: Roundtable: Hoffenheim vs. Liverpool
« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2017, 08:07:52 pm »
Great OP Babu.

I think what we must remember is that currently we don't have Lallana, Coutinho or even Keita to help us break down defences. For me if we had played Hoffenheim in a traditional European game we would of been up against it. They would of doubled up on Salah and Mane and it would of come down to a tactical midfield battle. With a midfield three consisting of a half fit Hendo, Can who came back late after the Confed Cup and Gini who is more of a facilitator than a play maker and without the aforementioned three for me we would of probably come off second best.

Turn it into a battle of set piece delivery and long range shooting and for me they are clear favourites.

Good spot about the TAA can't defend from Klopp, there was also Milner is 100% a midfield player as well as Robertson not being in the squad. So Klopp signaled that he was going with Moreno at full back thereby leaving the door slightly ajar.

Hopefully long term we can bring in a VVD to shore up the defence, a Keita to improve our dribbling ability from central midfield as well as bring back the likes of Lallana and hopefully Coutinho.

Till then I can see us continuing to encourage teams to come out and try and have a go at us because it is much better than trying to break down packed defences with the blunt instrument that is Hendo, Can and Gini.
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Re: Roundtable: Hoffenheim vs. Liverpool
« Reply #13 on: August 16, 2017, 08:08:23 pm »
Only a very short piece from me but agree with the part where if we took the chances at 2-0 last night and 3-2 on Saturday then it would have ended 4-0 and 5-2 respectively as they would have been demoralised . A fit sturridge coming off the bench for the last 20 in both games would have certainly resulted in chances for him and he's the most lethal finisher we have . He's very close klopp said let's hope he returns very soon

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Re: Roundtable: Hoffenheim vs. Liverpool
« Reply #14 on: August 16, 2017, 08:12:57 pm »
Thanks for that. Really fascinating analysis.

Hope you are able to do more of these post match reviews.

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Re: Roundtable: Hoffenheim vs. Liverpool
« Reply #15 on: August 16, 2017, 08:47:07 pm »
Interesting. and insightful OP. More of the same, please.

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Re: Roundtable: Hoffenheim vs. Liverpool
« Reply #16 on: August 16, 2017, 09:42:52 pm »
Fantastic analysis! The effort that was no doubt involved much appreciated.

You mention a little about last season with Milner and Clyne, perhaps implying that we generally allow more space down our left flank for attacks.

So I guess I'm curious how much of these tactics is our 'standard' approach under Klopp vs specific for Hoffenheim. Or is this one of n approaches we use for a certain type of opposition. Were there parallels with how we played against Watford, for instance. And would you expect something similar in the home leg? Do we have the ability to flip this, leaving those spaces on our right flank, if that made sense for a certain opposition?

Our left side is always the pressing trap. (Could be wrong, just speaking from gut feeling watching us). That probably could be flipped but I suspect would require a change of personnel if the case as our right appears far more passive which then defeats the point of a pressing trap. You canīt have a passive ambush :D

I might have a look at Watford before the next game but with work, that might not be possible. If not, Iīll certainly look at the next game (Palace?) instead.

An interesting thing was a discussion we had pre-season. Mane on the left would be good for Moreno because he protects full backs more than Coutinho. True, he certainly did. Coutinho tucks in more and doesnīt really track overlapping full backs so the theory was good. The thing is, the shift to the left has so far unburdened Mane with defensive responsibility rather than help Moreno.

Now this defies all logic because it's one of those accepted facts that Moreno cannot defend and yet Klopp just bet our European Qualification on Moreno last night. He was happy to let Hoffenheim have overloads on him for the chance for Mane to run riot on their right center back. The interesting thing from looking into defensive stats on the full backs thread is that Moreno has an incredibly totals of things he does.

For example, his average tackle success in 2015/16 was 75%. Last season Milnerīs was 67%. League average for full backs was 71%. That was while making 4.3 tackles per game compared to 2.7 for Milner. League average was 2.4. Now obviously if you are making a lot of tackles, even at a high success rate that means a lot more failed tackles. They both made around 1 foul per 90 (1,08 Milner, 1,02 Moreno) but if you look at fouls per tackle, Milnerīs comes out at almost double. Moreno was also dribbled past less also (1,09 Moreno vs 1,4 Milner).  He also has twice as many interceptions as Clyne or Milner and is the only one to get over 50% in aerial challenges (Moreno 51,7%, Milner 40,8%, Clyne 23,2%).

When you add up all the defensive actions a player does (blocks of all kind, recoveries, interceptions, tackles, etc) Moreno comes out highest in the league. This doesnīt mean best. It could even mean worst. Those are both subjective. It just means he is either very aggressive, has a large area of responsibility &/or sees a lot of defensive action in his area of the pitch.

Also when you look at reactive actions (recoveries, interceptions) vs active actions (blocks, tackles) the league average is roughly 2.3 times as many reactive as active. Clyne and Milner are similar (1.85 & 1.9). Moreno is 1.3 which is the highest score recorded. Rose & Davies - by comparison, both come out at 1.4 (they are 2nd & 3rd on the list). There is no particular magic score that is good, or not, but it does tell us how aggressive Moreno is by comparison to our other full backs and those to another pressing side in Spurs. And I suspect if you treat pressing traps as an ambush situation - the unofficial SAS motto of speed, aggression and surprise come into play. This makes me wonder that if, despite his obvious faults, if a Moreno type left back perfect for our system. Is this why Pochettino persisted with Danny Rose despite the fan base deeming him a brain dead liability when he arrived at the club. Therefore Klopp may be willing to give chances that we aren't in the hope the same basics of defending can result in a similar upward turn as we saw with Rose? 

Iīm not saying these are the answers, merely trying to open a discussion that makes sense of the decisions Klopp makes rather than dismiss his decisions, like playing Moreno, as stupid.
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Re: Roundtable: Hoffenheim vs. Liverpool
« Reply #17 on: August 16, 2017, 10:48:28 pm »
An interesting thing was a discussion we had pre-season. Mane on the left would be good for Moreno because he protects full backs more than Coutinho. True, he certainly did. Coutinho tucks in more and doesnīt really track overlapping full backs so the theory was good. The thing is, the shift to the left has so far unburdened Mane with defensive responsibility rather than help Moreno.

Now this defies all logic because it's one of those accepted facts that Moreno cannot defend and yet Klopp just bet our European Qualification on Moreno last night. He was happy to let Hoffenheim have overloads on him for the chance for Mane to run riot on their right center back. The interesting thing from looking into defensive stats on the full backs thread is that Moreno has an incredibly totals of things he does.

Hmmm...Babu do you think perhaps Klopp has just decided to allow Moreno to play to his strengths, rather than try to re-train him to become a more orthodox full-back? I think Moreno is a tactically suspect LB at times when the opposition attacks left to right (his right to left). Diagonals and knowing when to cover the CBs or midfielders appear to give him trouble much of the time. However, as your stats suggest, he is generally good in 1v1s or 1v2s, even though his defending looks really unorthodox sometimes, and he is great at attacking. If Klopp invites attacks down our left, he might eliminate two problems at once. He can allow Moreno to engage in more 1v1s and 1v2s and be part of most counter attacks with Mane, without having to worry constantly about left-right diagonals and who is covering for the CBs or midfielders.

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Re: Roundtable: Hoffenheim vs. Liverpool
« Reply #18 on: August 16, 2017, 11:00:57 pm »
Hmmm...Babu do you think perhaps Klopp has just decided to allow Moreno to play to his strengths, rather than try to re-train him to become a more orthodox full-back? I think Moreno is a tactically suspect LB at times when the opposition attacks left to right (his right to left). Diagonals and knowing when to cover the CBs or midfielders appear to give him trouble much of the time. However, as your stats suggest, he is generally good in 1v1s or 1v2s, even though his defending looks really unorthodox sometimes, and he is great at attacking. If Klopp invites attacks down our left, he might eliminate two problems at once. He can allow Moreno to engage in more 1v1s and 1v2s and be part of most counter attacks with Mane, without having to worry constantly about left-right diagonals and who is covering for the CBs or midfielders.

All very possible, yes. The truth is if we maintained pressure on the ball in midfield, it would massively improve performance at the moment. I see that as a big difference between last season and this one.

The Watford Doucoure goal is a good example, 3 midfielders within 15 yards of the ball, Moreno is marking one of them, nobody tracks the others. Moreno stays with Amrabat and tries to win the ball, Amrabat squares to Doucoure, who plays in Cleverly, who crosses for Doucoure to score after continuing his run. Moreno also got blamed for this goal despite being the only player who is marking someone &/or pressing the ball carrier in the entire passage of play. Yet at the time Moreno decides to stay on Amrabat, Henderson is right beside Cleverly. Gini should have been located in the area Doucoure was running into when shifting across to fill the gap for Henderson. Can should have been tracking Doucoure as he was nearby when he conceded the throwin.  (I tried to link the goal here but all youtube content from the game is showing as banned!).

As for Moreno improving, I noticed in pre-season, specifically the Bayern game, he was scanning. This is something I had literally never seen him do before. So if he can start doing that at least, it should reduce how often he loses players on the pitch. Of course players can still run off the back of him inbetween scans, but it should make a big improvement.
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Re: Roundtable: Hoffenheim vs. Liverpool
« Reply #19 on: August 17, 2017, 12:46:57 am »
Really good read. Thanks.

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Re: Roundtable: Hoffenheim vs. Liverpool
« Reply #20 on: August 17, 2017, 01:50:28 am »
Trents awesome but 18 for example there was one play where a h winger cleverly faked a basic square ball to a cb and then just pushed and ran  it down the line, sold TAA complete. Untill hes beaten by every trick once hes gonna get beaten by tricks.

he closed down in a flash what an athlete he is but its interesting dilemma because he is precociously athletically outstanding but green as tea.
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Re: Roundtable: Hoffenheim vs. Liverpool
« Reply #21 on: August 17, 2017, 01:58:11 am »
Quote
I think what we lack, that Dortmund had, was a ruthless goalscorer. Someone who would get a big chance to kill a game and put it away. None of our best XI are traditional goalscorers (maybe Mane?). However, when we are ahead and being more conservative, he is likely to be found stalking a full back rather than trying to sniff out a goal the way Lewandowski (or Barrios before him) would have.
I think this is why so many of us wanted a top class striker in the window. I understand Firmino's importance in the system but I'm not sure we would miss much if we had a mobile number nine (as opposed to a Lukaku/Ibrahimovic-type) who could drag defenders around and create space, but who would also get in the middle to finish moves. Sturridge, when he's fit, is this exact type of striker.

Coutinho's long shooting improved considerably last season but I still feel like we relied on those too often, we often miss that presence in the opposition box - and particularly when we're chasing the game. Salah has looked very good so far and he got on the end of a lot of balls last night, even if his finishing wasn't top notch, but I definitely think we can do with a more dangerous player up front in the middle when we're trying to break teams down. I'm not sure whether pace will be enough against teams that are parking the bus. Anyway, great job on the OP. It's the kind of in-depth analysis that makes this board really worthwhile.

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Re: Roundtable: Hoffenheim vs. Liverpool
« Reply #22 on: August 17, 2017, 02:14:18 am »
Great post!

I have a question. I felt that the last 10 or so minutes of the Watford game, we sat deeper and looked like we were trying to defend that one goal while you suggested that we were going for the goal against Hoffenheim but still conceded... If our approach was different but the result the same (late goal conceded), what are some routes we can take to fix this problem? Do we need a proper Matic like DM to shore up the back and sit in front of the back four the last 15 minutes of a game? Do we change shape maybe? Bring in another cb and play 5 at the back? Are our players tired? Is it a concentration problem?

I really enjoy our play but always sit the last 15 minutes of games biting my nails as we always seem to concede...

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Re: Roundtable: Hoffenheim vs. Liverpool
« Reply #23 on: August 17, 2017, 02:15:37 am »


Here is a good example of why there must always be pressure on the ball. If you can load up the game, watch this passage of play again in the 86th minute and ask yourselves who makes mistakes for this goal?

Mane for not pressing Nordveit?
Trent Alexander-Arnold for not tucking in, then not playing to the whistle?
The whole back line for not dropping off when they saw no pressure on the ball?
The whole midfield for being too high up the pitch?
All of them?

Then you can start to look at other things like - Why are there 5 Hoffenheim players behind our midfield line? At the time the pass is played to Ulf, Trent could be watching the LWB who is goalside of Salah & Milner. But he also has Ulf next to him. Matip has Ulf next to him and Wagner in front of him. Lovren has Wagner behind him and a player breaking into space in front of him. Moreno is marking the RWB but also has a player breaking into space behind him.

Therefore our entire backline has two people they need to be aware of at the time the goal is scored and, no matter what choices they all make, there is always someone free.

Why are we playing two flat banks of four with over 20 yards between midfield and defence holding a line more than 40 yards from goal in the 86th minute?

This is where it gets really weird for me. Klopp always wants asymmetry in midfield so why is everything in flat lines? I canīt imagine that was his instruction.

So where do you attach blame for that goal? Thoughts?

This goal is also a good example of why our forwards must be fresh late in the game to press with high energy. And why the nearest player to a ball always has to press it while the rest transition into defensive shape. If you stand off any player and give them time to make those passes, youīll get picked off on retreat.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2017, 02:20:10 am by BabuYagu »
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Re: Roundtable: Hoffenheim vs. Liverpool
« Reply #24 on: August 17, 2017, 02:53:40 am »
Great OP Babu.

I think what we must remember is that currently we don't have Lallana, Coutinho or even Keita to help us break down defences. For me if we had played Hoffenheim in a traditional European game we would of been up against it. They would of doubled up on Salah and Mane and it would of come down to a tactical midfield battle. With a midfield three consisting of a half fit Hendo, Can who came back late after the Confed Cup and Gini who is more of a facilitator than a play maker and without the aforementioned three for me we would of probably come off second best.

Turn it into a battle of set piece delivery and long range shooting and for me they are clear favourites.

Good spot about the TAA can't defend from Klopp, there was also Milner is 100% a midfield player as well as Robertson not being in the squad. So Klopp signaled that he was going with Moreno at full back thereby leaving the door slightly ajar.

Hopefully long term we can bring in a VVD to shore up the defence, a Keita to improve our dribbling ability from central midfield as well as bring back the likes of Lallana and hopefully Coutinho.

Till then I can see us continuing to encourage teams to come out and try and have a go at us because it is much better than trying to break down packed defences with the blunt instrument that is Hendo, Can and Gini.
Great post as usual Al.

I agree that our midfield is certainly lacking players that are dangerous in possession at the moment. They are fine in transitions and on the counter but trying to break down a side without Lallana or Coutinho is a problem.

Pre-match I talked about who else in the squad has that skillset who could play in our midfield and you are talking youths. Woodburn and maybe Ejaria. Kent could but has never played that position - although did play this role from a wide starting position for Barnsley and there is little difference in possession from a traditional wide right midfielder and the positions Lallana occupies. I personally think one of them needs to be on the bench because if we get stuck in a game and that is what we are missing - itīs better to have a young kid who might be able to do it at this level, than nobody who can do it. Do we really need both Origi and Solanke on the bench? Klavan and Gomez? Surely if we get 2 CB injuries in one game - which is unlikely - we can slot Can in there at a pinch and stick Milner or Grujic in midfield?

We certainly need someone like Keita, Seri or Demirbay.

I think this is why so many of us wanted a top class striker in the window. I understand Firmino's importance in the system but I'm not sure we would miss much if we had a mobile number nine (as opposed to a Lukaku/Ibrahimovic-type) who could drag defenders around and create space, but who would also get in the middle to finish moves. Sturridge, when he's fit, is this exact type of striker.

Coutinho's long shooting improved considerably last season but I still feel like we relied on those too often, we often miss that presence in the opposition box - and particularly when we're chasing the game. Salah has looked very good so far and he got on the end of a lot of balls last night, even if his finishing wasn't top notch, but I definitely think we can do with a more dangerous player up front in the middle when we're trying to break teams down. I'm not sure whether pace will be enough against teams that are parking the bus. Anyway, great job on the OP. It's the kind of in-depth analysis that makes this board really worthwhile.

Itīs been shown before that when Firmino doesnīt play in that central role, whoever (Sturridge/Origi) plays in place of him has better output but the system as a whole produces something like 30% less (and far far less still with Benteke). As an aside - I think Sturridge might stay fit(ter) this season than expected. Just something a physio said to me that aligns with things Klopp has been saying about him.

Great post!

I have a question. I felt that the last 10 or so minutes of the Watford game, we sat deeper and looked like we were trying to defend that one goal while you suggested that we were going for the goal against Hoffenheim but still conceded... If our approach was different but the result the same (late goal conceded), what are some routes we can take to fix this problem? Do we need a proper Matic like DM to shore up the back and sit in front of the back four the last 15 minutes of a game? Do we change shape maybe? Bring in another cb and play 5 at the back? Are our players tired? Is it a concentration problem?

I really enjoy our play but always sit the last 15 minutes of games biting my nails as we always seem to concede...

I spoke a bit about this here when talking about how to kill games off better or shut them down.

Looking at the imagine I posted before this one - you can see the problem right away. Itīs a flat 4-4-2 pretty much with no pressure on the ball. If I told you that was Hodgsonīs Liverpool you would likely believe it. Something we were doing against Bayern Munich at 2-0 was having something like a box midfield shape.



So here you would have the line deeper because there is no pressure on the ball. You then have in front of it 2 x #6s and 2 #8īs. We then have wingers who stay high and wide for the counter. This leaves wide players quite open but the box doesnīt have far to travel to occupy the half spaces beside them. Plus you donīt see situations where we completely vacate the zone 14 right in front of our own goal. This is a very Brazilian formation - one which Dunga actually used with Brazil and was criticised for itīs negativity. He was the most successful Brazilian coach in recent times though - but style is as important as substance with Brazilian National Team :D

So yeah, I figured that would be our containment formation, or something like that. I would have Grujic practicing for that role now to put as a long ball winner in front of the defence. The beauty of it is that when we regain the ball, our wingers will either be in behind the full backs or have split center backs leaving space through the middle. We also should have an overload immediately in the middle of the pitch to play a combination through to get the ball forward very quickly before releasing the wingers.

However, it seems since that game, we arenīt actually doing that. For some reason our midfield just retreated into that shape of their own volition during the game. So Iīve no idea what the plan is for those sorts of games at the moment. I strongly doubt what you are seeing above is the tactical shape Klopp wanted though, Iīve never seen a team of his look so flat in my life.
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Re: Roundtable: Hoffenheim vs. Liverpool
« Reply #25 on: August 17, 2017, 03:19:59 am »
Great post as usual Al.

I agree that our midfield is certainly lacking players that are dangerous in possession at the moment. They are fine in transitions and on the counter but trying to break down a side without Lallana or Coutinho is a problem.

Pre-match I talked about who else in the squad has that skillset who could play in our midfield and you are talking youths. Woodburn and maybe Ejaria. Kent could but has never played that position - although did play this role from a wide starting position for Barnsley and there is little difference in possession from a traditional wide right midfielder and the positions Lallana occupies. I personally think one of them needs to be on the bench because if we get stuck in a game and that is what we are missing - itīs better to have a young kid who might be able to do it at this level, than nobody who can do it. Do we really need both Origi and Solanke on the bench? Klavan and Gomez? Surely if we get 2 CB injuries in one game - which is unlikely - we can slot Can in there at a pinch and stick Milner or Grujic in midfield?

We certainly need someone like Keita, Seri or Demirbay.

Itīs been shown before that when Firmino doesnīt play in that central role, whoever (Sturridge/Origi) plays in place of him has better output but the system as a whole produces something like 30% less (and far far less still with Benteke). As an aside - I think Sturridge might stay fit(ter) this season than expected. Just something a physio said to me that aligns with things Klopp has been saying about him.

I spoke a bit about this here when talking about how to kill games off better or shut them down.

Looking at the imagine I posted before this one - you can see the problem right away. Itīs a flat 4-4-2 pretty much with no pressure on the ball. If I told you that was Hodgsonīs Liverpool you would likely believe it. Something we were doing against Bayern Munich at 2-0 was having something like a box midfield shape.



So here you would have the line deeper because there is no pressure on the ball. You then have in front of it 2 x #6s and 2 #8īs. We then have wingers who stay high and wide for the counter. This leaves wide players quite open but the box doesnīt have far to travel to occupy the half spaces beside them. Plus you donīt see situations where we completely vacate the zone 14 right in front of our own goal. This is a very Brazilian formation - one which Dunga actually used with Brazil and was criticised for itīs negativity. He was the most successful Brazilian coach in recent times though - but style is as important as substance with Brazilian National Team :D

So yeah, I figured that would be our containment formation, or something like that. I would have Grujic practicing for that role now to put as a long ball winner in front of the defence. The beauty of it is that when we regain the ball, our wingers will either be in behind the full backs or have split center backs leaving space through the middle. We also should have an overload immediately in the middle of the pitch to play a combination through to get the ball forward very quickly before releasing the wingers.

However, it seems since that game, we arenīt actually doing that. For some reason our midfield just retreated into that shape of their own volition during the game. So Iīve no idea what the plan is for those sorts of games at the moment. I strongly doubt what you are seeing above is the tactical shape Klopp wanted though, Iīve never seen a team of his look so flat in my life.

Thanks for the reply. I remember reading your post about our box formation in midfield, was very entertaining and educational.

I thought Grujic was more of a Paul Scholes in the body of Matic? Not really a defensive midfielder, just looked the part? It seems we really don't have a genuine defensive midfielder anywhere at the club...

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Re: Roundtable: Hoffenheim vs. Liverpool
« Reply #26 on: August 17, 2017, 04:29:38 am »
Babu brah, you need to share your data sources. don't be greedy  :P

Also,what are those books and blogs?
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Offline moloch

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Re: Roundtable: Hoffenheim vs. Liverpool
« Reply #27 on: August 17, 2017, 05:40:43 am »
This is where it gets really weird for me. Klopp always wants asymmetry in midfield so why is everything in flat lines? I canīt imagine that was his instruction.

There are obviously concentration issues across the whole team, that's why we still ship stupid goals, specially late stupid goals. If we can fix that I think we will be just fine with our defense. If not, I'm not sure even VVD or the likes can help us..

Offline Yanwoo

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Re: Roundtable: Hoffenheim vs. Liverpool
« Reply #28 on: August 17, 2017, 10:25:29 am »
Now this defies all logic because it's one of those accepted facts that Moreno cannot defend and yet Klopp just bet our European Qualification on Moreno last night. He was happy to let Hoffenheim have overloads on him for the chance for Mane to run riot on their right center back. The interesting thing from looking into defensive stats on the full backs thread is that Moreno has an incredibly totals of things he does.

For example, his average tackle success in 2015/16 was 75%. Last season Milnerīs was 67%. League average for full backs was 71%. That was while making 4.3 tackles per game compared to 2.7 for Milner. League average was 2.4. Now obviously if you are making a lot of tackles, even at a high success rate that means a lot more failed tackles. They both made around 1 foul per 90 (1,08 Milner, 1,02 Moreno) but if you look at fouls per tackle, Milnerīs comes out at almost double. Moreno was also dribbled past less also (1,09 Moreno vs 1,4 Milner).  He also has twice as many interceptions as Clyne or Milner and is the only one to get over 50% in aerial challenges (Moreno 51,7%, Milner 40,8%, Clyne 23,2%).

When you add up all the defensive actions a player does (blocks of all kind, recoveries, interceptions, tackles, etc) Moreno comes out highest in the league. This doesnīt mean best. It could even mean worst. Those are both subjective. It just means he is either very aggressive, has a large area of responsibility &/or sees a lot of defensive action in his area of the pitch.

Also when you look at reactive actions (recoveries, interceptions) vs active actions (blocks, tackles) the league average is roughly 2.3 times as many reactive as active. Clyne and Milner are similar (1.85 & 1.9). Moreno is 1.3 which is the highest score recorded. Rose & Davies - by comparison, both come out at 1.4 (they are 2nd & 3rd on the list). There is no particular magic score that is good, or not, but it does tell us how aggressive Moreno is by comparison to our other full backs and those to another pressing side in Spurs. And I suspect if you treat pressing traps as an ambush situation - the unofficial SAS motto of speed, aggression and surprise come into play. This makes me wonder that if, despite his obvious faults, if a Moreno type left back perfect for our system. Is this why Pochettino persisted with Danny Rose despite the fan base deeming him a brain dead liability when he arrived at the club. Therefore Klopp may be willing to give chances that we aren't in the hope the same basics of defending can result in a similar upward turn as we saw with Rose? 


That stuff on Moreno activity levels is very interesting, I wouldn't have thought that without seeing those numbers. I'll be keeping an eye out for that against Crystal Palace, and, in fact, that whole flank.

Iīm not saying these are the answers, merely trying to open a discussion that makes sense of the decisions Klopp makes rather than dismiss his decisions, like playing Moreno, as stupid.

I'm with you on that; when I'm in a domain where I'm not an expert, I find it far more fruitful to assume there's a lot more to something than I can see, that there's always reasons why something is the way it is although on the surface it may not make sense, and figure out what that is, versus buy into some silly uninformed shallow opinion that's popped in my head.

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Re: Roundtable: Hoffenheim vs. Liverpool
« Reply #29 on: August 17, 2017, 10:37:46 am »
This is a very good and well argued piece and I'm very grateful for you taking the time to write it. I've been close to despair at the state of RAWK recently, and such a well thought out argument restores my faith that the forum can be so much more than a shit-fest of incontinence.

I'm nowhere near knowledgable to support or contest your analysis, other than enjoying how well structured your thoughts are. I'm particularly pleased that you have found very sound reasons for why our players are making the decisions that we see.

Good stuff, thank you again.
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Re: Roundtable: Hoffenheim vs. Liverpool
« Reply #30 on: August 17, 2017, 12:37:44 pm »
Hello, Rawkites.
Long time lurker. First-time poster.
Have always enjoyed posts from E2K, POP, Royhendo and Macca. Shame they don't post anymore (Or maybe they do, but the name changes are really hard to keep track of).
There are a few other posters I enjoy reading too. But none like those 3.
Thank God for Babu though. You ser are something else. Still not yet the same as those 3 in my eyes, but you are getting there.
Great stuff. :wave
« Last Edit: August 17, 2017, 01:11:52 pm by Hendollama »
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Offline Grobbelrevell

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Re: Roundtable: Hoffenheim vs. Liverpool
« Reply #31 on: August 17, 2017, 01:21:14 pm »
What a series of posts they are, BabuYagu. Thanks for taking the time and offering some possible context to some of what we're seeing on the field.
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Offline GregCharrua

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Re: Roundtable: Hoffenheim vs. Liverpool
« Reply #32 on: August 17, 2017, 01:31:32 pm »
Thank you Babu, excellent posts. Loved to read them.

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Re: Roundtable: Hoffenheim vs. Liverpool
« Reply #33 on: August 17, 2017, 02:34:01 pm »
But I mean , fookin come on!
I mean - jesus.
'kin obvious innit!

Offline Szemerényi

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Re: Roundtable: Hoffenheim vs. Liverpool
« Reply #34 on: August 18, 2017, 11:04:30 am »
Great post, Бабyягy. I always though you were PoP with a name change  :) Please recommend some of the books and blogs you're reading.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2017, 11:07:45 am by Szemerényi »

Offline wige

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Re: Roundtable: Hoffenheim vs. Liverpool
« Reply #35 on: August 18, 2017, 12:02:02 pm »
I think what we lack, that Dortmund had, was a ruthless goalscorer. Someone who would get a big chance to kill a game and put it away. None of our best XI are traditional goalscorers (maybe Mane?). However, when we are ahead and being more conservative, he is likely to be found stalking a full back rather than trying to sniff out a goal the way Lewandowski (or Barrios before him) would have.

I think Solanke will be that player as we saw that from him in pre-season. He had very few chances, but whatever ones he did have he just put them away. The dynamic changes in games when you are ahead, center backs are higher up the pitch and straight line speed (e.g. Lukaku) is more useful than agility & speed on the turn (Salah). Therefore a more physical striker with a high top speed like Lukaku, Lewandowski, Costa will be very useful here in terms of playing up against the center halves, bullying them, and taking any chances they sniff out. Torres was this man for Rafa, a player blessed with both that agility and speed on the turn and that ability to ruin center backs in a physical battle and race to the ball over the top.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/wlCgRp43HRU" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/wlCgRp43HRU</a>

Our system at the moment is designed to ruin teams and create a high volume of good chances which players like Salah, Mane and Bobby are crucial too. The problem for us is this system works best with Bobby as false #9. When we had  Benteke instead of Bobby, he would personally have better numbers but the output of the system as a whole got slashed dramatically. Even now, when we have Origi or Sturridge instead of Bobby, their numbers are better but the expected goals output of our attack as a whole falls by about 25-30%.

I imagine if we could get Costa (for example) that would be ideal. But a Costa level player isnīt going to sit on the bench and watch Firmino get us ahead in a game to come off the bench at the end to ruin the tired defenders. So last season we mostly used Origi for this role. I looked back and saw that Origi has come off the bench for us around a dozen times when 1 goal ahead. In total we are probably talking about 180 minutes worth of football there. In those games he has 4 goals and 1 assist.

I think Solanke could be even better still though. He just seems tactically a lot smarter than Origi and far more ruthless. Itīs a lot to place on a kids shoulders, but there it is. And of course, if he grows into something similar to a Diego Costa type talent, we have seen with Lewandowski at Dortmund that Klopp could certainly rebuild his tactical shape around a more traditional #9 with Bobby likely playing in one of the wide forward roles or a 10 if he reverts back to the Dortmund 4-2-3-1.

So that is how we would be better suited to kill games. The other side of that is how we shut games down. Ideally I would like us to have a compact shape that forgets about pressing traps and focuses on just being solid. This is easier at Dortmund as you can just plonk Kehl & Bender in front of the defence and have them fuck off the attacks. But our midfield is built more for active defending (pressing) rather than passive defending. We have the likes of Milner, Moreno & TAA now who can sit in front of a full back and offer a better defensive base in wide areas but we donīt really have that through the middle at the moment. I am honestly not sure the solution here.

The starting point is obviously moving to a double 6 in those moments. I would even have a double 8 in front of them too with the wingers staying high and wide to press the center backs and track the full bak on whatever side they attack down. The other winger then shifts across as a loan striker in those moment to counter. Vogt of Hoffenheim is a possible solution for the #6. He looked outstanding last night, often plays as a #6 and gives us depth at center back. He is someone you could put in front of the defence like Kehl to shut a game down through the middle. I would like to have a Kehl-like player we could use like that. I remember when Klopp first arrived we have Toure, Skrtel, Lovren & Caulker each have a run at the end of games in this role. It became a running joke of mine in round tables "Toure - our new DM?"

Last night, I think we kept pushing for the 3rd goal rather than shut the game down at 2-0. Easy to say in hindsight that was a mistake but I would argue that up until their goal we always looked by far the most likely to get another goal. You canīt criticise that risk given that itīs Kloppīs approach to risk that put us ahead in the tie to begin with. You cannot chose which risks are acceptable or not based on outcomes. You can only assess the decision made and in those instances I will tend to always back Klopp, even when it doesn't come off because you can't rejoice having a brave world class coach and then moan when his bravery costs us a goal.

The clinical/ruthless aspect is an interesting one. I think Mane is pretty ruthless, as is Sturridge. They rarely waste/miss excellent chances. Firmino however, needs to improve in this area. The chance he had early in the second half is a prime example, to my mind. While he didn't do anything 'wrong', a Lewandowski/Torres/Shearer takes that chance 99 out of 100 times. It's interesting though. During Suarez's first season I was in the camp that thought he was a brilliant player, but a poor finisher. Dragging things, lacking composure at crucial times etc. He then improved the season after, and then blew up the one after. You gotta wonder what was in Ivanovic's shoulder. I hope that this is Firmino's "Suarez's second year" (Or skip straight to being one of the best finishers in the world, but let's not get greedy yet) and we see him hit 17+ goals from open play/free kicks (not pens) I think that goes a long, long way to us becoming a more ruthless team. This isn't to put the blame squarely on his shoulders. So far I think Salah should have at least 2 more than he does, and Gini, as much as I love him, does miss some great chances at times. I can think of a number of others, Lovren/Clyne, for example, also missing really really clear chances over the last 12-18 months. I agree with your opinion of Solanke so far, he looks like a dude that doesn't fuck about. Really looking forward to him developing here. I think we might have an absolute steal there.

Just briefly on the double 6 shout - I agree, I think we'd get a lot more solidity from a couple of holders. Also, if we're not able to bring in any more attacking midfield options, it could be that a switch to 4-2-3-1 makes a lot more sense with the squad as it is. To my eyes, it almost looks like it's being developed with that formation in mind. We have a couple of target man types - Origi/Solanke. The brilliant wide forwards in Mane and Salah, excellent 10's in Coutinho/Lallana and some very good CMs in Hendo/Can/Gini. When you start factoring in that Sturridge could do a job at RW/LW/ST in that, Bobby could play in any of the 4 forward positions, Lallana could do any of the 3rd line positions, Coutinho could do LW/CM/AM, Milner etc etc and Woodburn, Ings etc. I dunno - it seems like we're better covered depth wise for that. I also think that gives our defence much better protection via a Hendo/Gini/Can twosome with instructions to play more of a holding role. I wonder how much injuries have hampered our plans to use this, if they have at all or whether it's a case of in the first block of games we've decided a 4-3-3 would be best suited to our needs. Of course, it may just be that I'm talking nonsense!

Interesting to see the line up against Palace. I think Hendo gets a rest with Milner coming in, Sturridge is used from the bench ahead of a possible start against Hoffenheim hopefully for Mane/Salah (once we've smashed 7 past them in the first 50 minutes).. We may well see a debut for Robertson too. I don't expect much else.

Offline Living Legends

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Re: Roundtable: Hoffenheim vs. Liverpool
« Reply #36 on: August 18, 2017, 12:11:06 pm »
Great read, thanks!

I wonder if Clyne might be played on the left, when he's back, and TAA be kept on the right...depending on how Robertson & Alberto are doing too I guess...

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Re: Roundtable: Hoffenheim vs. Liverpool
« Reply #37 on: August 18, 2017, 06:08:48 pm »
Excellent posts all round.

I think people see what they want to see with Moreno for now. It will take a season or more before people are willing to judge him by his current deeds. I saw that he was being exposed to repeated 2-v-1s but I didn't think it was intentional. It must have been though because it should have been obvious to everyone (except certain fans of course) and especially Klopp. He gambled and it paid off and should have paid off more handsomely.

Hoffenheim were good and well-drilled but their defensive system asked a lot of the individual defenders. They repeatedly found themselves in similar situations to Moreno or just in 1-v-1s against Salah and Mane. We took advantage of this repeatedly in the second half and tore them to shreds in one 30 minute period. Unfortunately all those chances only resulted in the one goal. Their determination to play out from the back bordered on the dogmatic at times. We were pressing them in numbers and a simple turnover would have resulted in a good goalscoring opportunity because we were a single tackle away from outnumbering them in attack. If Klopp gambled, then Nagelsmann did too, less successfully as it turns out.

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Re: Roundtable: Hoffenheim vs. Liverpool
« Reply #38 on: August 18, 2017, 06:35:06 pm »
Excellent posts all round.

I think people see what they want to see with Moreno for now. It will take a season or more before people are willing to judge him by his current deeds. I saw that he was being exposed to repeated 2-v-1s but I didn't think it was intentional. It must have been though because it should have been obvious to everyone (except certain fans of course) and especially Klopp. He gambled and it paid off and should have paid off more handsomely.

Hoffenheim were good and well-drilled but their defensive system asked a lot of the individual defenders. They repeatedly found themselves in similar situations to Moreno or just in 1-v-1s against Salah and Mane. We took advantage of this repeatedly in the second half and tore them to shreds in one 30 minute period. Unfortunately all those chances only resulted in the one goal. Their determination to play out from the back bordered on the dogmatic at times. We were pressing them in numbers and a simple turnover would have resulted in a good goalscoring opportunity because we were a single tackle away from outnumbering them in attack. If Klopp gambled, then Nagelsmann did too, less successfully as it turns out.

The two managers comments after the game were interesting. Paraphrasing a lot here but Klopp basically said "we controlled when and where you attacked and caused you far more damage" whereas Hoffenheimīs coach just said "he is talking shit, we controlled the game and created lots of chances".

I am assuming therefore what we are suggesting in here to be true - Klopp was letting them attack Moreno, the trade of being Mane could butcher their RCB on the counter. Hoffenhim thinks his side were creating those overloads through good play. I wonder will either of their opinions change on second viewing? I suspect Hoffenheim were quite proud of their performance and the times they opened us up but didn't appreciate at the time that we basically just left Mane upfield all game to terrorize them.

Looking back now, amazing the game was just 2-1. 5 or 6-3 is probably more reflective of the chances created. The Salah 1-on-1 that got under his feet initially. The Firmino miss. The Lovren set piece attempts, Can miss... all good chances which were worth a few goals on another day.
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Re: Roundtable: Hoffenheim vs. Liverpool
« Reply #39 on: August 18, 2017, 06:42:53 pm »
Great read, thanks!

I wonder if Clyne might be played on the left, when he's back, and TAA be kept on the right...depending on how Robertson & Alberto are doing too I guess...

I would doubt it simply because Clyne struggles to be an attacking threat on his stronger foot. Even at their worst, Robertson and Moreno will force sides to stretch their shape horizontally to stop them easily running in behind them and driving hard low left footed crosses into the danger areas of their box all night. Look at the ball Cleverly played against for the second Watford goal at the weekend. If you play narrow you are letting someone play those sorts of balls into dangerous zones all night.

However, you can afford to sit narrow if a full back isnīt explosive, isn't particular effective on their weaker foot (most Milner left foot crosses are high & floaty which massively favour the defence) or tend to cut inside. Burnley did this against us last season to good effect. They narrowed their shape which meant there was even less space between the lines for our creative players to work in, and Milner wasn't enough of a threat at left back to compensate for this.
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