Topic: Liverpool's Midfield

[christofu]

Not picking on you because everyone does it but Henderson and Milner are entirely different.
Henderson is one of the best midfield pressers in the league. Milner isn't. Milner is an excellent midfield passer, Henderson isn't - in fact he's been mostly horrible this season with the ball
Henderson is really good at keeping our defensive shape, Milner vacates his space to attack constantly and isn't particularly good defensively in midfield at all these days.
They're just so different as players the only commonality is they're both British, right footed and they both run around a lot

probably the best crease presser in the league

[Ghost Town]

probably the best crease presser in the league

Amazing he's never turned out for the Iron in his long career

[Bjornar]

Not picking on you because everyone does it but Henderson and Milner are entirely different.
Henderson is one of the best midfield pressers in the league. Milner isn't. Milner is an excellent midfield passer, Henderson isn't - in fact he's been mostly horrible this season with the ball
Henderson is really good at keeping our defensive shape, Milner vacates his space to attack constantly and isn't particularly good defensively in midfield at all these days.
They're just so different as players the only commonality is they're both British, right footed and they both run around a lot

While this isn't wrong as such, it exemplifies what I find baffling about the LFC midfield debate currently, putting relatively small differences under a magnifying glass.

Regardless of who one prefers to start among the current midfielders, all of them fit certain criteria - they're all hard-working, versatile, two-way midfielders who are "generalists" rather than "specialists". Yet from the discussions, you'd think we had Carlton Palmer starting and Gazza sitting on the bench, chalk and cheese. Henderson and Keita are painted as complete opposites, when it seems to me their skillsets are at least as similar as for example Joe Allen compared to 2014 Henderson, or Redknapp compared to Michael Thomas, to go as far back as I can remember.

It's only in a narrow sense that Milner and Henderson are very different players, and I'd argue it's pretty narrow as well to think like many seem to do that in Keita and Oxlade-Chamberlain we have players waiting on the bench who have the potential to be transformative to how this team plays compared to the current starters. In the grand scheme of things, they're not *that* dissimilar to Henderson, Wijnaldum and Milner either. They all share the above-mentioned traits, and that's not by happenstance.

To me it just seems like there's a failure and/or unwillingness to comprehend how much importance for our chance creation Klopp, rightly of wrongly, places on qualities like intensity ("our identity") in pressing, off the ball movement and directness in the right moments, even in the games where we have the ball most of the time.  We're not aiming to create chances primarily  by being slick and skilful for ninety minutes, but to set up the conditions for getting opportunities, and being decisive in them. We mostly succeed in that approach, sometimes we fail, personally I wish the discussions would reflect a bit more in the case of both that that's what we're trying to do.

[Too early for flapjacks?]

Not picking on you because everyone does it but Henderson and Milner are entirely different.
Henderson is one of the best midfield pressers in the league. Milner isn't. Milner is an excellent midfield passer, Henderson isn't - in fact he's been mostly horrible this season with the ball
Henderson is really good at keeping our defensive shape, Milner vacates his space to attack constantly and isn't particularly good defensively in midfield at all these days.
They're just so different as players the only commonality is they're both British, right footed and they both run around a lot

They may have different qualities but they have some simlar deficiencies. That's the point.

[Scottymuser]

Not picking on you because everyone does it but Henderson and Milner are entirely different.
Henderson is one of the best midfield pressers in the league. Milner isn't. Milner is an excellent midfield passer, Henderson isn't - in fact he's been mostly horrible this season with the ball
Henderson is really good at keeping our defensive shape, Milner vacates his space to attack constantly and isn't particularly good defensively in midfield at all these days.
They're just so different as players the only commonality is they're both British, right footed and they both run around a lot

Henderson is pretty much as good a passer as Milner these days - just last week Hendo set Mane up with a ball that if it was Xavi or Iniesta people would be going on about it being the best pass of the year, the week before it was Salah he set up, etc.  For me, Hendo is as good as, if not better than, Milner in almost every single facet of play for a midfielder, save tactical fouling - Milner is very good at fouling a player and picking up a yellow for the team, whereas Hendo seems sometimes to stand off a bit too much, as if he is wary of picking up too many yellows.

But Hendo showed in midweek, where he was *excellent* for 20 mins at RB that he could even play there to a high level

[kloppismydad]

What are people's thoughts on Matip in the DM role once he recovers, during Fabinho's absence? He's good aerially, pretty decent on the ball and a good defender. If my memory is correct, he has played in that role before too.

[Jookie]

What are people's thoughts on Matip in the DM role once he recovers, during Fabinho's absence? He's good aerially, pretty decent on the ball and a good defender. If my memory is correct, he has played in that role before too.

If we had about 5 midfielders injured at once then this might be an option.

There's basically one lad injured and people are losing their heads. Do you really think Matip has the mobility to play asa single pivot in our midfield? Better than Henderson, Wijnaldum, Lallana or even Keita or Milner? Most of these lads are still available at the moment.

[SteveZissou]

Fabinho is one midfielder. When one midfielder is injured. We got more.

[Nessy76]

They may have different qualities but they have some simlar deficiencies. That's the point.

I think it's partly that the overlap of deficiencies is a problem. When the two play together, neither of them is going to cancel out the problems of the other. Play either with any two of our other mids and those problems largely go away. So Henderson drifting out to the right is no big deal when Fabinho and Wijnaldum are there, because they will cover the empty space between them, and the same with Milner drifting to the left, but the pair of them each drifting into the opposite channels leaves whoever is left in the middle to cover both. That's why we saw Salah and Firmino dropping back into midfield so much against Napoli, trying to fill the gaps.

[xbugawugax]

So with news Fab is out for the month.

who do we play as a no 6. Hoping its hendo as he have done a job there but also depends on the availability of the other midfielders

We have Hendo,Milly,Gini,Keita,Ox, Lallana and the hopefully not forgotten man Shaqiri to be thrown in the mix.

Think the no 6 role would be shared with Hendo and Gini as both played there before and is more or less familiar with the role with glut of games coming up. Lallana despite all the talk is a bit of a risk at no 6. Would prefer Lallana as the no 8 or the gini role in keeping the midfield glue and get the ball moving.

If things get a bit spread thin, do anyone think that any of the youth can make a step up. Glances at Curtis Jones. Not as a no 6 of course but more of back up for the advanced roles in midfield.

[Giono]

What are people's thoughts on Matip in the DM role once he recovers, during Fabinho's absence? He's good aerially, pretty decent on the ball and a good defender. If my memory is correct, he has played in that role before too.

He played DM in Germany.

[smurfinaus]

Might be a dumbass question, but wasnt Keita bought for his ability presence to play DM/CM (who can get forward with his v good dribbling skills)?

[Roger Federer]

What are people's thoughts on Matip in the DM role once he recovers, during Fabinho's absence? He's good aerially, pretty decent on the ball and a good defender. If my memory is correct, he has played in that role before too.

We have 6 midfielders. Why move Matip there when we already have plenty of cover for Fabinho? Wijnaldum, Henderson and Lallana can all play as a number 6.

[AmanShah21]

We have 6 midfielders. Why move Matip there when we already have plenty of cover for Fabinho? Wijnaldum, Henderson and Lallana can all play as a number 6.

Matip is also injured though right?
Regardless, midfield is where we are strongest in depth and even though we dont have another proper DM, we can and probably will go back to the double pivot that we played when Ox came on against Napoli with having two half-6 half-8s instead of Fabinho and one midfielder higher up the pitch to provide overloads and runs.

[PoetryInMotion]

Totally agree. Of our midfielders who have got on the pitch with any regularity, Milner is probably the most attacking and creative. Its weird that they often get put together. I think it is likely due to the occasional stodginess of the Wijnaldum - Hendo - Milner midfields we saw in season past.

On one hand, if Milner is the most creative out of somewhat regulars, then he's also the one who gives us the most tactical problems. It's not about just keeping clean-sheets or not, it's about visual test tactically. It's the same reason why Klopp thought Shaqiri wasn't tactically ingrained even though he was playing well in an attacking sense early last season.

But since this is off the ball, this is either being ignored or unnoticed.

[PoetryInMotion]

Might be a dumbass question, but wasnt Keita bought for his ability presence to play DM/CM (who can get forward with his v good dribbling skills)?

There's a lot of difference in the role of a DM and a CM in our system. Keita is a CM and not a DM.

Also, not directing at you, but Matip as DM now? Really? I know he has played there before but I think it's the next 'move Trent to midfield' thing that Klopp is never going to do.

[JJ Red]

Massive opportunity for Keita and Ox coming up. Maybe even a chance for Lallana to earn a new contract. Hopefully that's how these lads and the squad look at it rather than getting too down about Fab's injury.

[PoetryInMotion]

I think it's partly that the overlap of deficiencies is a problem. When the two play together, neither of them is going to cancel out the problems of the other. Play either with any two of our other mids and those problems largely go away. So Henderson drifting out to the right is no big deal when Fabinho and Wijnaldum are there, because they will cover the empty space between them, and the same with Milner drifting to the left, but the pair of them each drifting into the opposite channels leaves whoever is left in the middle to cover both. That's why we saw Salah and Firmino dropping back into midfield so much against Napoli, trying to fill the gaps.

Henderson drifts wide due to instruction and only when both Fab and Gini are there mostly. He never used to drift wide as a 6. Milner drifts wide regardless.

[PoetryInMotion]

While this isn't wrong as such, it exemplifies what I find baffling about the LFC midfield debate currently, putting relatively small differences under a magnifying glass.

Regardless of who one prefers to start among the current midfielders, all of them fit certain criteria - they're all hard-working, versatile, two-way midfielders who are "generalists" rather than "specialists". Yet from the discussions, you'd think we had Carlton Palmer starting and Gazza sitting on the bench, chalk and cheese. Henderson and Keita are painted as complete opposites, when it seems to me their skillsets are at least as similar as for example Joe Allen compared to 2014 Henderson, or Redknapp compared to Michael Thomas, to go as far back as I can remember.

It's only in a narrow sense that Milner and Henderson are very different players, and I'd argue it's pretty narrow as well to think like many seem to do that in Keita and Oxlade-Chamberlain we have players waiting on the bench who have the potential to be transformative to how this team plays compared to the current starters. In the grand scheme of things, they're not *that* dissimilar to Henderson, Wijnaldum and Milner either. They all share the above-mentioned traits, and that's not by happenstance.

To me it just seems like there's a failure and/or unwillingness to comprehend how much importance for our chance creation Klopp, rightly of wrongly, places on qualities like intensity ("our identity") in pressing, off the ball movement and directness in the right moments, even in the games where we have the ball most of the time.  We're not aiming to create chances primarily  by being slick and skilful for ninety minutes, but to set up the conditions for getting opportunities, and being decisive in them. We mostly succeed in that approach, sometimes we fail, personally I wish the discussions would reflect a bit more in the case of both that that's what we're trying to do.

This is a great post and a bit of context on what Klopp wants is great to read amidst chaos.

[Giono]

Henderson drifts wide due to instruction and only when both Fab and Gini are there mostly. He never used to drift wide as a 6. Milner drifts wide regardless.

As a 6 he is central. But as an 8 he is on the right and sharing the width of the pitch with the other 8 on the left. I don't think it is instruction that makes him drift wide in matches. It is instinct. Being one of two 8s allows him to favour one touchline.

[Nessy76]

Henderson drifts wide due to instruction and only when both Fab and Gini are there mostly. He never used to drift wide as a 6. Milner drifts wide regardless.

He was doing it the other night, even after Ox came on and obviously gestured that they were playing 4-2-3-1. Hendo sat on the right wing, in front of Oxlade. It was clearly not the plan.

[Flaccido Dongingo]

The club should have acted on Big Dogs extensive scouting reports, and swooped in for young Harrison Reed to bolster the midfield ranks, very lucky his £8m valuation hasn't changed while he's been monitored the last 4 years or so.

[PoetryInMotion]

As a 6 he is central. But as an 8 he is on the right and sharing the width of the pitch with the other 8 on the left. I don't think it is instruction that makes him drift wide in matches. It is instinct. Being one of two 8s allows him to favour one touchline.

I disagree. He drifts wide because Trent needs help. Trent is good defensively despite the narrative, but he's no Robertson. When Trent goes up, he does leave spaces at the right.

Hendo never drifted wide under Rodgers when he played as an 8. The fact that he is doing it now is likely to be instruction because Hendo is a natural central player.

Milner however is a natural wide player and has always drifted wide regardless of where he is played.

[Agent99]

Pretty fucking slick tonight.

[Hazell]

Pretty fucking slick tonight.

A Frank Lampard wet dream (after an all you can eat buffet).

[exiledintheUSA]

We got the best midfield in the World ^TM

[harleydanger]

Interesting that when Gini went down, he went for Milner and putting more minutes in Robbo than the three midfielders on the bench.

[newterp]

Interesting that when Gini went down, he went for Milner and putting more minutes in Robbo than the three midfielders on the bench.

I wouldn’t read too much into it. Actually thought Milner was having some trouble at LB anyway.

[Shankly998]

I wouldn’t read too much into it. Actually thought Milner was having some trouble at LB anyway.

Yep Milner was struggling. We do need to find a versatile player who can play both RB and LB so Milner can spend more time in midfield.

[oxenstierna]

Yep Milner was struggling. We do need to find a versatile player who can play both RB and LB so Milner can spend more time in midfield.

Agree. Love Gomez and Milner but I dont like them at fullback at all

[No666]

It was interesting that Klopp mentioned Williams as one of the four outfield players really close to a first team breakthrough. He did not, though, mention Larouci.

[Fiasco]

Yep Milner was struggling. We do need to find a versatile player who can play both RB and LB so Milner can spend more time in midfield.

Where is a 25 year old Arbeloa when you need him?

[hesbighesred]

Where is a 25 year old Arbeloa when you need him?

Lovely player but not sure where he'd fit in this team. Sure, he'd be great defensive cover but when you think about the type of downgrade in our attacking slickness that both Gomez and Milner represent it's hard to see how Arbeloa would be any better. I think we're more likely to convert a midfielder than invest in a pure defender. Henderson, for example, has looked fine whenever we've tried him at RB. Not perfect, but able to contribute in attack while still fulfilling his defensive duties. It's incredible that Milner does it as well as he does, given his age.

[Magix]

Yeah Hendo is the next best option for rightback within our ranks. He wasn't that great when he played there last season, but I think he should fare better now having played that advanced right midfield role for a bit, where he covers Trent and interchanges with him.

[Horizon]

Useless..   Wish we had the galatico
Chelsea and Man City midfield instead.

[catinthebag]

Just wondered where we would be if Emre Can stayed. Would we have brought Fabinho in? Can is a good footballer but I guess while it seemed natural for him to have left in hindsight, it did feel like we lost a big talent then.

[redman64]

Just wondered where we would be if Emre Can stayed. Would we have brought Fabinho in? Can is a good footballer but I guess while it seemed natural for him to have left in hindsight, it did feel like we lost a big talent then.

I liked Emre a lot. He left coz of who we were signing.  As good a player he is, he obviously didnt fancy his chances against Fab so proving he wasnt good enough!

[Ghost Town]

I liked Emre a lot. He left coz of who we were signing.  As good a player he is, he obviously didnt fancy his chances against Fab so proving he wasnt good enough!

Did he know we were signing Fabhino when he refused to sign a new contract and started talking to Juve? Perhaps - players may have a lot more knowledge about club plans than we think, and that might be one of the sources for leaks.

But the impression I got was that Can just decided to leave for more money.

I too liked him a lot; he had great games and not so great games, but scored some super goals. No hard feelings, we ended up improving, and you must wonder whether players who chose to leave may now have some regrets.

[tubby]

Did he know we were signing Fabhino when he refused to sign a new contract and started talking to Juve? Perhaps - players may have a lot more knowledge about club plans than we think, and that might be one of the sources for leaks.

But the impression I got was that Can just decided to leave for more money

I think it was more that he wasn't first choice in midfield for us so tried his luck elsewhere.  It's blown up in his face, but it is what it is.

[Yorkykopite]

I just want to say....Gini Wijnaldum's run for the 4th goal. No run, no space for Trent to move into. Towards the end of a game that was already won too. This is Klopp's team in a nutshell.