Author Topic: WBA (H) Round Table  (Read 29944 times)

Offline spider-neil

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Re: WBA (H) Round Table
« Reply #80 on: October 29, 2013, 06:55:01 am »
We 100% need to sell a CB sometime in the near future.

At the moment, we have 3 starting with our vice-captain on the bench and a 7m signing not even getting a minute of first team action. Add to this a product of our academy out on Derby to a decent Championship team and you've got too many options. 6 CB's is too many for any team



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Re: WBA (H) Round Table
« Reply #81 on: October 29, 2013, 08:47:40 am »
Yorky, I've always thought of Ivanovic in the Carvalho mould. A master in the subversive dark arts of defending. He'll do just enough to put his man off his game for the 90 minutes and yet, stay away from the ref's notebook too. Indeed, he managed to get under Suarez's skin so much that dramatic afternoon last season that he ended up being the recipient of a nasty bite-mark. And yet, there was no need for him to resort to anything as brainless and crude as stamping on the man when he lay down after a foul. I think Ivanovic's formidable physique often misleads people into bracketing him along with lumps like Shawcross. He is the most intelligent, versatile and skillful defender in that Chelsea backline. Sort of like a rich man's Arbeloa. You only notice what a gaping chasm his presence leaves when he's not playing there. He's the sort of defender that would've gotten into the Liverpool side of the 80s. That's how highly I rate Ivanovic.



You need this kind of players. I am still convinced with Suarez in the team the injury of Coutinho wouldn´t have happened, they would have been too busy being scared of Suarez for trying to have a go at our more technical players. Suarez offers both which is quite astonishing.

I remember a game where Ivanovic hit Carroll with the elbow and Suarez getting back to him to protect his team mate in the second half. Ivanovic was quiet for the rest of the game.. Obviously the nasty fucker wasn´t once bitten and twice shy...  ;D
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Offline spider-neil

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Re: WBA (H) Round Table
« Reply #82 on: October 29, 2013, 09:11:38 am »
You need this kind of players. I am still convinced with Suarez in the team the injury of Coutinho wouldn´t have happened,

The 10 game ban cost has cost us at least 2 points this season but on the flip side I think the ban absolutely took the pressure off Suarez in the first few games of the season as I think had Suarez been playing before the close of the window he would be putting in the performances he is now.

Offline Robinred

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Re: WBA (H) Round Table
« Reply #83 on: October 29, 2013, 11:47:55 am »
Yes, so would I. A total thug. Now we're on the subject wouldn't you be tempted to put Ivanonovic up there? He can play a bit, I know, but the fella seems truly dedicated to the flying elbow method of defending

Agree with all that. But also agree with Indian Red's assessment of his largely unremarked value to Chelsea. (For another debate, but interesting to see Mourinho's preference for Terry over Luiz, the more so when Rafa's tenure there is examined.)

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Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: WBA (H) Round Table
« Reply #84 on: October 29, 2013, 02:42:29 pm »
For RobGomm :D

Interesting game, probably the best 90 minutes we've played all season, and a few little tweaks that make for very interesting viewing, if intentional, for anyone interested in the tactics of the game.

The Team Shapes

Liverpool played a 3-1-4-2, which had certain effects we will look at in a bit. But ostensibly, we played a 3-5-2 that was designed to control midfield more than hit on the break. This contrasted with West Brom’s 4-2-3-1 which played more like a lopsided 4-4-2 or 4-3-3, with Sessegnon playing more like a forward, but switching with Anicheve too, while Amalfitano played deeper and tucked in:



Billy Jones added attacking impetus on the right side for them, and as proved late in the game, he could do some damage with his runs from deep.

Liverpool, as mentioned, changed the shape of the midfield a little, and this allowed the midfield to gain more ground in the centre, allowing the whole team to push on and hunt the ball at times:




The arrows in the diagram indicate the movement of the midfield “four”, and show how they could press as a unit when needed, while offering attacking support to the two forwards, who had free reign to move as they saw fit. This ability to press as a group helped Liverpool to dominate large sections of the game, and dictate the tempo from the first whistle to last. The most interesting part of the game, though, was the defensive shape. More on that later.

Pressing –

Although Liverpool under Rodgers is not a pure pressing team, they did hunt for the ball as a line, pushing Suarez and Sturridge onto West Brom’s central defenders, leaving the midfield to press their fullbacks and midfield two:



Essentially, the game was turned into a series of 1v1 battles, and quality won out. West Brom were allowed to push into certain areas, with the continuing trend for allowing the opposition to shoot long with the idea that Mignolet can be trusted to handle these long shots for the most part. As it was, they only got three shots in the box, which Mignolet handled relatively well. Apart from the penalty, and the Anelka chance (and one more perhaps), Mignolet was relatively untroubled in goal for most of the game.

The Lucas Role –
 
The important part of the game came in two connected parts. Firstly, Skrtel playing like a pure sweeper meant that he played to his strengths, and Mignolet’s weakness in coming off his line was covered. But the next move was the key to it all. Lucas played almost as a traditional stopper, with central defensive duties allied to his midfield role. He sat off, and patrolled the area across the space in front of the defence. This was helped by the fact that we play three defenders behind him, as opposed to two. With two central defenders, the controlling mid has to either cover the width of the field on his own, or drop into a split central defence, which might create some of its own problems. With the three defenders, though, the width was covered by the outside defenders, and the middle covered by the central defender, which meant that Lucas had a smaller corridor to work in, meaning less energy expended. What helped, though, is that Gerrard was largely cleared of that area, and there was no confusion as to the division of labour in the midfield area. Lucas was the defensive shield, and it suited him down to the ground – he didn’t have to hesitate or guess if Gerrard was able to cover the space, so his reading of the game was clearer – which meant he could position himself properly without stepping on anyone’s toes:



This allowed the wingbacks to push forward and act as wide midfielders almost, turning the 3-1-4-2 into an almost old school 4-4-2, the way it was played in the 80’s. This helped Lucas too, in that the old Brazilian 4-4-2 was often played with a sweeper, fullbacks, and a midfield/central defence stopper behind the central midfield, and he is surely aware of that type of formation:



This has some implications for the Arsenal game, in that playing Lucas purely defensively and as zonal marker for Giroud frees Skrtel up to cover any through passes they attempt (Arsenal have the most through balls per game in the league and it’s a major part of their attacking patterns). This puts a bit more pressure on the central midfield, but with Henderson’s legs covering for Gerrard, and Gerrard’s passing releasing Suarez and Sturridge as well as the wingbacks (who are now functioning more like wide midfielders), we could create a lot of problems for Arsenal playing this way. Additionally, it’s possible Rodgers has been gearing the season so far towards this game (with a small dose of fortune and happenstance), as one method of team-building is to pick a target in the future and play and prepare towards that, even if you take each individual game as a separate step towards the bigger goal. This was the reasoning behind the switch towards the continental style of play in 1973 – playing a style that would succeed in Europe, but would also benefit the domestic games. While it doesn’t seem that Rodgers is thinking that far ahead, it is reasonable to speculate that the Arsenal game has been in his mind for a while, and perhaps we will see this 3-5-2 for that game, and after that, revert back to a four man defence for the next target? It remains to be seen. What is clear, though, is that this method of playing is a lot different than the rest of the league is used to, and it might give the team an edge they didn’t have before.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2013, 03:22:11 pm by PhaseofPlay »
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Re: WBA (H) Round Table
« Reply #85 on: October 29, 2013, 03:10:14 pm »
Isn't 'Gerrard' Suarez and 'Lucas' Gerrard in that pic PoP?

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Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: WBA (H) Round Table
« Reply #86 on: October 29, 2013, 03:11:58 pm »
Isn't 'Gerrard' Suarez and 'Lucas' Gerrard in that pic PoP?

(Nice opening line for a poem)

Yep. Should have put the contacts in when doing that picture :D
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Re: WBA (H) Round Table
« Reply #87 on: October 29, 2013, 04:35:35 pm »
Thanks for that PoP, good stuff.

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Re: WBA (H) Round Table
« Reply #88 on: October 29, 2013, 05:04:54 pm »
Thanks for that PoP, good stuff.
Agree but these numbers get confusing a 3-1-4-2 that is also a 3-5-2 that I'd argue also looks like a 1-2-1-4-2. Hard to keep up ;)
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Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: WBA (H) Round Table
« Reply #89 on: October 29, 2013, 05:26:06 pm »
Agree but these numbers get confusing a 3-1-4-2 that is also a 3-5-2 that I'd argue also looks like a 1-2-1-4-2. Hard to keep up ;)

Yep - it's like we're being managed by Ted Rogers :D

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Re: WBA (H) Round Table
« Reply #90 on: October 29, 2013, 06:15:40 pm »
FFS PoP I was just about to post the exact same thing

Seriously though good read all that mate

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Re: WBA (H) Round Table
« Reply #91 on: October 29, 2013, 06:32:08 pm »
Excellent and informative as ever PoP.

I hope Wenger doesn't read Rawk  :D

It certainly feels like a more proactive approach to defending.  The thing I like most about the current side is how much mobility we have throughout the team.  Both in terms of individual players and the system as a whole.

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Re: WBA (H) Round Table
« Reply #92 on: October 29, 2013, 06:36:08 pm »
We 100% need to sell a CB sometime in the near future.

At the moment, we have 3 starting with our vice-captain on the bench and a 7m signing not even getting a minute of first team action. Add to this a product of our academy out on Derby to a decent Championship team and you've got too many options. 6 CB's is too many for any team

I do think we'll revert back to 4 at the back at some stage which will mean another top defender on the bench.

If we stay with 3 at the back then 4 is ok for the long term and you can go back to 2 centre backs if 2  get injured. At the minute tjhe Ilori signing is looking like a bit of a waste. If he goes on loan and we play  3 centre backs then we are ok with the 4. But currently he is losing out on his development because w only play a game a week and he doesnt even feature.

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Re: WBA (H) Round Table
« Reply #93 on: October 29, 2013, 06:37:12 pm »
Excellent and informative as ever PoP.

I hope Wenger doesn't read Rawk  :D

It certainly feels like a more proactive approach to defending.  The thing I like most about the current side is how much mobility we have throughout the team.  Both in terms of individual players and the system as a whole.

Arsene Wenger might be PoP mate, for all we know :D

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Re: WBA (H) Round Table
« Reply #94 on: October 29, 2013, 06:43:18 pm »
Arsene Wenger might wish he's PoP mate, for all we know :D

Fixed  ;)

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Re: WBA (H) Round Table
« Reply #95 on: October 29, 2013, 06:54:47 pm »
For me that was the best team performance from us all season.

Yes the awe inspiring Suarez was MOTM but the rest of the team (bar Sturridge) was the basis for the win (I'm singling Sturridge out as his role is to support and compliment Suarez).

The three centre backs hardly put a foot wrong and it's clear that Toure has stepped up his game and is a real leader. Skrtel has also improved, back up to his best and Sakho looks as if he has been in the team for years. These three are forming a very good core to the team. They stopped WBA gaining anything from set pieces and they work well together (Toure being the leader).

Lucas.........superb and most understated. He nibbles away and intercepts in order to protect the back 3.

Gerarrd was nowhere near Lucas and that's where he should be........pinging balls all over looking for openings.

Henderson was filling in the gaps and played a role similar to Lucas except much further up the pitch.

The key for me though were Johnson and Cisshoko. They hugged the touchline and gave us the extra men when the middle was congested. Gerrard constantly fed the ball out to them which dragged the disciplined WBA defence left and right.

Up front......well it's like a vintage wine.......SAS.......no more needs to be said about these two. Suarez...........a smile a minute.

Same again for the next match please. Many people want to see Coutinho back but not yet.....Henderson, Lucas and Gerrard are doing a good and professional job.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2013, 06:58:22 pm by stockdam »
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Re: WBA (H) Round Table
« Reply #96 on: October 29, 2013, 07:05:11 pm »
Excellent and informative as ever PoP.

I hope Wenger doesn't read Rawk  :D

It certainly feels like a more proactive approach to defending.  The thing I like most about the current side is how much mobility we have throughout the team.  Both in terms of individual players and the system as a whole.

I echo these sentiments!

I've got a couple of questions for the enlightened members of the round table if they would care to opine;

1. I spoke to a friend who said that Enrique and Cissokho have a similar impact on our team, thereby making an investment in Cissokho slightly redundant. I can't say that I've noticed the major differences yet - but would anyone be able to point to major differences in style and whether they have a preference either way?

2. People seem to be slaughtering Skrtel (Breakfast Percy on Twitter in particular has a Skrtel faced snare drum which is very well worn) and I must confess to being convinced by their arguments. In light of this would PoP, Prof or anyone else for that matter, write a little bit on when and why Skrtel should being played ahead of Agger or vice versa?

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Re: WBA (H) Round Table
« Reply #97 on: October 29, 2013, 07:24:25 pm »


2. People seem to be slaughtering Skrtel (Breakfast Percy on Twitter in particular has a Skrtel faced snare drum which is very well worn) and I must confess to being convinced by their arguments. In light of this would PoP, Prof or anyone else for that matter, write a little bit on when and why Skrtel should being played ahead of Agger or vice versa?

Sympathy for talent is nothing, competition everything.  That´s why Henderson is still playing ;)
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Re: WBA (H) Round Table
« Reply #98 on: October 29, 2013, 07:39:58 pm »
1. I spoke to a friend who said that Enrique and Cissokho have a similar impact on our team, thereby making an investment in Cissokho slightly redundant. I can't say that I've noticed the major differences yet - but would anyone be able to point to major differences in style and whether they have a preference either way?

I don't see "your" point. Both have their strengths a weaknesses but the main reason for Cissokho being bought was to provide backup and competition. We need competition in every position and that means that each player will have to keep their standards high if they are to remain in the team. If either of these two players gets injured or has to come off during a match then we have a good replacement.

2. People seem to be slaughtering Skrtel (Breakfast Percy on Twitter in particular has a Skrtel faced snare drum which is very well worn) and I must confess to being convinced by their arguments. In light of this would PoP, Prof or anyone else for that matter, write a little bit on when and why Skrtel should being played ahead of Agger or vice versa?

I'm not sure what gives Breakfast Percy a better insight into the players than our manager and coaches. If they feel that Skrtel is the man then that's good enough for me. Martin has done his very best and deserves to play.....anyone who displaces him will have to play to the best of their ability as we won't be carrying any more passengers.

Rather than single out individual players like your twitter friend, I'd rather look at the sum of the parts. In the past our teams had some players who weren't the most gifted but they did their jobs well and we lifted many a trophy with these players who would be slated by the "experts" on twitter. The manager is trying to get the best out of the squad and at times he will select players that some of the rest of us wouldn't select.....but only one man is paid to do this job and at present he's keeping us in 2nd place in the EPL with a great opportunity to go top again.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2013, 07:42:25 pm by stockdam »
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Offline robgomm

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Re: WBA (H) Round Table
« Reply #99 on: October 29, 2013, 08:14:52 pm »
You're back in the starting 11, PoP!  ;D

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Re: WBA (H) Round Table
« Reply #100 on: October 29, 2013, 08:22:49 pm »
An intriguing thought crossed my mind about the current state of play/run of form. It was that Rogers wanted to add a further 20 goals to the season with the new boys. I also was excited about the thought of goals from all over the team at an increased rate to last season, which in that sense was great to see then, especially the back end of last season. This is not happening at all at the moment, but with 3s and 4s going in from the front pair, we have not been desparate for the other players goals. Are other players scoring currently an unnecessary luxury?
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Re: WBA (H) Round Table
« Reply #101 on: October 29, 2013, 08:24:38 pm »
On that 4-4-2 comparison, if you read it like that then it kind of doesn't seem as crazy that he had a back four like he did against Southampton. Difference being, of course, that here the 'back four' doesn't include using Sakho and Toure as full backs who need to push on and act as contemporary full-backs, instead they act as defensive-minded full-backs supporting the two central defenders, one of whom acts as a sweeper.

The one thing we know is deliberate (as I guest there's always a risk of shoehorning intention through hindsight, a risk I like to take sometimes!) is that Rodgers was wanting to play a 1-2 instead of a 2-1, as he said exactly that after the match.

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Re: WBA (H) Round Table
« Reply #102 on: October 29, 2013, 08:32:22 pm »
1. I spoke to a friend who said that Enrique and Cissokho have a similar impact on our team, thereby making an investment in Cissokho slightly redundant. I can't say that I've noticed the major differences yet - but would anyone be able to point to major differences in style and whether they have a preference either way?
Nate from Oh You Beauty posted a really nice diagram over the summer comparing the locations Cissokho and Enrique create chances from. The basic difference was that Cissokho stays much much wider, while Enrique looks to come inside and combine with the others a lot more. Cissokho also had much higher pass completion and successful crossing numbers. The impression I get is that while Enrique tries really hard to make things happen, Cissokho is much more conservative and more focused on stretching the play.

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Re: WBA (H) Round Table
« Reply #103 on: October 29, 2013, 08:45:01 pm »
On that 4-4-2 comparison, if you read it like that then it kind of doesn't seem as crazy that he had a back four like he did against Southampton. Difference being, of course, that here the 'back four' doesn't include using Sakho and Toure as full backs who need to push on and act as contemporary full-backs, instead they act as defensive-minded full-backs supporting the two central defenders, one of whom acts as a sweeper.

The one thing we know is deliberate (as I guest there's always a risk of shoehorning intention through hindsight, a risk I like to take sometimes!) is that Rodgers was wanting to play a 1-2 instead of a 2-1, as he said exactly that after the match.

Actually had similar thoughts to you when reading PoP's post - the point about the Southampton game with 4 CBs jumped out. The reason being that I also remember seeing the heat maps for Toure and Sakho - and they were pretty much highlighted mainly in the wide areas you'd expect a full back to defend, without so much the possession in attacking areas.

When you look at it that way, it was at times a back 4, with Lucas as one of the CBs, similar to the Southampton game.
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Re: WBA (H) Round Table
« Reply #104 on: October 29, 2013, 08:54:05 pm »
The key difference though is the width provided by the wing backs in the current version.

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Re: WBA (H) Round Table
« Reply #105 on: October 30, 2013, 12:57:56 am »
Just watched the second half through. My immediate observations were that we saw three moments from Skrtel which demonstrated his continuing limitations one year into a coaching regime which has surely been attempting to improve his ability on the ball,

1, in the closing 8 or so minutes Skrtel plays a pass straight into a WBA player and we concede a corner from the resulting attack,
2, on about the 70th minute Skrtel attempts to control the ball at the kop end following a corner - he proceeds to take a heavy touch and gives the ball away leading to a counter attack,
3, and obviously there is the shot at goal he completely mis-kicks. Which on a side note he laughs at, in contrast Suarez can been seen kicking himself a few minutes after missing the free kick at 3-1 or 4-1 late on in the game. At this point of his career, if Skrtel can't see the funny side of his inability on the ball he would be quite a damaged individual so fair play to him for developing a coping mechanism.

To answer the question I posed earlier regarding Agger vis-a-vis Skrtel, that sweeper role is going to be incredibly limited this season when it doesn't have a challenging direct opponent as it did on Saturday. On those occassions I would have Skrtel nowhere near that sweeper role and possibly try to develop Kelly/ Illori because they will not have a great deal to do and I would prefer the sweeper brought additional distribution ability to compensate for the lack of a challenging defensive responsibility. With Toure/Sakho/Agger flanking Illori/Kelly, the latter would be able to develop with something akin to stabilisers and it would be an excellent position from which they could gain a full understanding of how the team operates thereby preparing them for the seasons ahead.

In the second half I thought Daniel Sturridge was by far our best player. But to explain why, first, it is important to discuss why perhaps we didn't miss Moses. Whilst Moses has been in the team he hasn't goals from the CAM position, but he has brought direct running which has helped with transitions. Yesterday Sturridge replicated that facet of our game. I'm not sure how to find the stats around this but I would venture that Sturridge won at least 5/6 free kicks for us and that was through his superb change of pace and excellent body positioning. There was a brilliant burst through two West Brom players which ended with him miscontroling and Gerrard getting a shot away in the last ten minutes or so. It was those moments, and even the defending at RB and LB during the closing stages of the game that would lead me to venture that he worked just as hard as Suarez did.

On another note, Suarez's performance really picked up after Sturridge scored his wonder goal and I do wonder if they have a friendly rivalry going on at the minute, I assume Suarez in particular will have quite an ego and therefore will want to be seen as the best forward at the club, logically it would follow that when Sturridge does well Suarez wants to do even better.

Final point I'd like to make, I thought Henderson was average in a limited midfield role. If we are to split the midfield zone as we did with Lucas Gerrard and Henderson on Saturday, then Henderson and Gerrard will not have too much ground to cover. With that in mind, stamina is not as vitally important as it was with the midfield two + Moses, but compensating for the lack of a No.10 is, so I'd rather see Allen there because he is better at building attacks and dribbling in 1v1 situations. Which isn't to say that Henderson is an average midfielder, but just that Allen would have brought more to our game on Saturday if fully fit.

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Re: WBA (H) Round Table
« Reply #106 on: October 30, 2013, 01:39:39 am »
Have to say I disagree with quite a bit their Garcepticon. I don't think Skrtel was the liability you make out, in fact I think arguably he's been our best CB this season and did a fantastic job again against Westbrom. Seems to me every time a ball is put into the box it's Skrtel that's clearing the ball out of danger, he's consistenly beating his opponent and dominanting in the air.  He might not be as good as the other CB's on the ball but as a pure defender IMO he's comfortably been our best.

I also disagree with the Henderson stuff, yes he was a bit sloppy on the ball and on the surface of it, you could say he was average but the workrate you've dissmissed is something many have pointed out here as a huge asset. I think he's covering huge ground both closing down and providing an option in attack. It was highlighted I think on MOTD but even before that many have really impressed with it. So much so that many here are now hypothesizing that Coutinho shouldn't come straight back into the team or at least not at the expense of Henderson.  Certainly the idea that Allen should take his place is a minority veiw I strongly disagree with.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2013, 01:41:35 am by DanA »
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Re: WBA (H) Round Table
« Reply #107 on: October 30, 2013, 03:02:06 am »
What's with the constant misunderstanding of non-English players "laughing" at their own mistakes? They're not chuckling, ha ha style, enjoying the fact that they effed up. They're mocking themselves. To claim that Skrtel did not demonstrate that missing that 'sitter' (and in such ridiculous, swing-and-a-miss, fashion) was terrible is to strain credulity.

As for Henderson, given BR's definition of 'fairness' there's not a snowball's chance in hell he's going to drop him in favor of Allen vs Arsenal.

Also, while he did have a bit of a slow start, I thought Henderson grew into the match, started operating at a very nice level and maintained it through the rest of the match.

Personally, I think this idea of keeping players on the pitch irrespective of the opponent because they've been playing and training well is a bit peculiar. I don't really buy the 'fairness' argument as fairness and competitive excellence are two different things.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2013, 09:08:06 pm by GrkStav »
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Re: WBA (H) Round Table
« Reply #108 on: October 30, 2013, 11:06:27 am »


Personally, I think this idea of keeping players on the pitch irrespective of the opponent because they've been playing well is a bit peculiar. I don't really buy the 'fairness' argument as fairness and competitive excellence are two different things.

What happens in training is also very important and we all don´t know what´s going on there.
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

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Re: WBA (H) Round Table
« Reply #109 on: October 31, 2013, 08:28:02 pm »
After finally watching the game, I only have one thing to add, ok two:

Lucas passing reminded me a lot of when Alonso was in his prime, he was pinging it 30m to players feet. He and Gerrard must have had something amazing for breakfast, as their energy levels were a good 50% above anything they have produced up until now this season.
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Re: WBA (H) Round Table
« Reply #110 on: October 31, 2013, 09:06:45 pm »
What happens in training is also very important and we all don´t know what´s going on there.

I suppose if I had added "and training" it would not have been different by much, substantively.

Let's say Skrtel has been playing well AND training well. Does that mean that it would be unfair to bench him for a game against a particular opponent in favor say of Agger, moving Sakho to CCB?

There's a danger in the horses for courses strategy. of course, but it's not necessarily an unfair strategy.
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Re: WBA (H) Round Table
« Reply #111 on: October 31, 2013, 09:17:12 pm »
I suppose if I had added "and training" it would not have been different by much, substantively.

Let's say Skrtel has been playing well AND training well. Does that mean that it would be unfair to bench him for a game against a particular opponent in favor say of Agger, moving Sakho to CCB?

There's a danger in the horses for courses strategy. of course, but it's not necessarily an unfair strategy.

You have to do it from the outset though. You can't come out and say that players have to compete for places in one instance, and then switch it on a whim. Players lose respect for managers when they do that. So in some ways, Rodgers made a rod for his own back in having competition as his philosophy. But the other option - horses for courses regardless of form - has it's own drawbacks also. The most important thing is to have a philosophy and stick with it.
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Re: WBA (H) Round Table
« Reply #112 on: October 31, 2013, 09:28:50 pm »
I suppose if I had added "and training" it would not have been different by much, substantively.

Let's say Skrtel has been playing well AND training well. Does that mean that it would be unfair to bench him for a game against a particular opponent in favor say of Agger, moving Sakho to CCB?

There's a danger in the horses for courses strategy. of course, but it's not necessarily an unfair strategy.

I think it depends on the season and overall situation of the squad. Last season, it would have been madness to go for some sort of competition just for the sake of it as it wasn´t there and it was about creating a positive atmosphere while teaching the squad the overall philosophy. Rodgers has been quoted on competition being very important pretty often so far this season and there can be a number of reasons for that besides the obvious positive effect in daily training which is very important.

But there could be more to it. Competition is important but not for every position and to me it looks as if Rodgers is using the competition-argument in order to find a way for gradually benching the untouchable regulars of last season for a couple of game, giving a sign that there won´t be any free tickets here anymore. Agger, as a vice captain, and very humble player will give the right reaction, just as Skrtel last season and Rodgers more options to react in the near future but it would have been madness to bench Daniel last season, that´s for sure.

As long as we are winning the majority of our games, there is nothing wrong with it, definitely better starting with it this season then after a successful one when players usually tend to think being more important than they are which makes it even more difficult to rotate them. Rafa suffered from this and Mancini in his last season.

« Last Edit: October 31, 2013, 09:32:50 pm by steveeastend »
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

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Re: WBA (H) Round Table
« Reply #113 on: October 31, 2013, 09:39:24 pm »
You have to do it from the outset though. You can't come out and say that players have to compete for places in one instance, and then switch it on a whim. Players lose respect for managers when they do that. So in some ways, Rodgers made a rod for his own back in having competition as his philosophy. But the other option - horses for courses regardless of form - has it's own drawbacks also. The most important thing is to have a philosophy and stick with it.

You and steveeastend both make very good points with which I actually agree.

Form is definitely important and should be 'milked' as much as possible. On the other hand, to use a far-fetched analogy, a truck in tip-top shape, perfectly-tuned etc is still not the best option for a long-distance trip on the freeway with grandma.  :wave

Too bad that footballers are not inanimate objects like vehicles, eh?  :D

One more point: relying on the 'competition' approach/philosophy means that a player currently on the first team has to put at least two mediocre (not calamitous) performances before it becomes 'legitimate' for the manager with that philosophy to 'yank' him in favor of another player.

Anyway, I am sure Agger is a 'big boy' (as was Skrtel last season) and will not be discouraged by not getting games in favor of a more in-form Skrtel.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2013, 09:44:06 pm by GrkStav »
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Re: WBA (H) Round Table
« Reply #114 on: October 31, 2013, 09:40:26 pm »
You and steveeastend both make very good points with which I actually agree.

Form is definitely important and should be 'milked' as much as possible. On the other hand, to use a far-fetched analogy, a truck in tip-top shape, perfectly-tuned etc is still not the best option for a long-distance trip on the freeway with grandma.  :wave

Too bad that footballers are not inanimate objects like vehicles, eh?  :D

It would be better if they were robots :D
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Re: WBA (H) Round Table
« Reply #115 on: October 31, 2013, 09:45:37 pm »
It would be better if they were robots :D

Or Stratego pieces. HA!

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Re: WBA (H) Round Table
« Reply #116 on: October 31, 2013, 09:47:48 pm »

Too bad that footballers are not inanimate objects like vehicles, eh?  :D

They are not, of course. But when reading quotes from Bellamy how he complains about the "regime" of Rafa and how the session were all about disciplined work I have to scratch my head. You wonder how hard it has to be for a professional football who made his dream come true while earning shiteloads of money to concentrate and work with discipline for a COUPLE of hours a day? I heard quotes of players first hand which you wouldn´t believe and it´s laughable really, a smack in the face for all the hard working people out there earning little to nothing and struggling with far worse problems on a daily basis.
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

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Re: WBA (H) Round Table
« Reply #117 on: October 31, 2013, 10:09:05 pm »
Regarding form - I had this debate in another area - but no one has managed to convince me that form isn't a complete and utter fantasy.  Anytime any statistician has tried to look at the problem in a remotely objective way, what they find is that there is no such thing as being "in form."  A coin can come up heads 10 times in a row, but it doesn't mean that it's in a "rich vein of heads form."  So I hope to all goodness that our manager isn't starting anyone because because he's "in form" because that's no more sensible than starting the player because "God is clearly smiling on him these days" or because "if he doesn't start him a Yeti will come after him."   

And I know many will argue and say, "Well - players aren't coins - they have motivation and confidence and yada yada" to which I say, find me the slightest bit of evidence that a player is more likely to play well in a game given that they played well in the previous one (above and beyond their base probability).  I'd be totally happy to be proven wrong in this - but I certainly haven't seen anything remotely convincing as of yet...   

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Re: WBA (H) Round Table
« Reply #118 on: October 31, 2013, 10:15:22 pm »
Regarding form - I had this debate in another area - but no one has managed to convince me that form isn't a complete and utter fantasy.  Anytime any statistician has tried to look at the problem in a remotely objective way, what they find is that there is no such thing as being "in form."  A coin can come up heads 10 times in a row, but it doesn't mean that it's in a "rich vein of heads form."  So I hope to all goodness that our manager isn't starting anyone because because he's "in form" because that's no more sensible than starting the player because "God is clearly smiling on him these days" or because "if he doesn't start him a Yeti will come after him."   

And I know many will argue and say, "Well - players aren't coins - they have motivation and confidence and yada yada" to which I say, find me the slightest bit of evidence that a player is more likely to play well in a game given that they played well in the previous one (above and beyond their base probability).  I'd be totally happy to be proven wrong in this - but I certainly haven't seen anything remotely convincing as of yet...

You're looking in the wrong direction then.

Stop looking at the players as individuals, and look at them as part of a complex whole, where their part also affects the parts of those around them. That would be your starting point, rather than the almost totally fallacious "coin toss" analogy.
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Re: WBA (H) Round Table
« Reply #119 on: October 31, 2013, 10:21:08 pm »
I'd could explain, but you're American and it would crumble your brain and then your brain would turn into cottage cheese. You then, would go on a mad firearms spree and give them all back and lobby your government to ban all weapons and then you'd lobby congress; to explain to your nation what a player 'being in form' means.
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Poor form by me there.
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