Topic: RAWK Round Table Liverpool 3-1 Crystal Palace.

[sattapaartridge]

I havent seen the match in full, some great posts here. I've just seen the Match of the Day highlights which didnt really show me anything.

YorkyKopite, dont you think that the Henderson/Gerrard partnership should be what it is as a step one?  Sure, Henderson could be more attacking and incisive, but surely keeping the ball is more important sometimes. I havent seen it, but I'd imagine Gerrard had an out-ball a lot more with Hendo than with Lucas, simply because he was higher up the pitch?

Can anyone tell me who (out of the 3 centre backs) made up the extra man in midfield and if the 3 centre backs were still pretty deep? I'll put "Toure" as my assumption.

Would you put Lucas back in this team against Newcastle or should Henderson continue to play?

[robgomm]

Yorky's analysis of Henderson is interesting for sure, though perhaps a little harsh. I think given Henderson has been asked to play a variety of different roles there's a risk he takes each role at face value. Lucas has been defensive midfielder for a long while now, his passing is positive and sharp. Henderson has been on the right wing this season and last, sometimes in the middle at times behind the striker or sometimes deep. He played on Saturday as a defensive midfielder new to the role, making short and square passes with good harrying. The nuances will come if he keeps at that role. Gerrard was revelling in getting forward on Saturday, Henderson sat deep and played in a defensive mindset. Long term I think Henderson is a box-to-box midfielder in the making. You can see the bones of it: the work rate, the runs into the box, the harrying. It's there waiting to be connected when the space in the team is available.

As a partnership I thought he and Gerrard were square too often but then PoP has pointed out a possible issue with Gerrard in this regard already this season. In the first half when a Speroni long kick nearly resulted in a goal was partly because of an error by Toure (or foul on him, if you prefer) and a reactive header from Skrtl but also because both Henderson and Gerrard alongside each other didn't track anybody. 

[woof]

We were top notch in the first half. Even though we beat Palace comfortably, something tells me something is not quite right with the team. I mean, we have not put on a good show for a full 90 minutes. In most matches, we win them in the first half. Not comfortably in all matches but most of them. What is it then? Focus? Stamina? To be really honest, we haven't played a tough opposition yet. One can't throw ManU in the mix because they're clearly "in transition".

That's the end of the 'bad news'.

Here's the 'good news':
Loved the way SAS and Moses operated. When Coutinho returns, I'd like to see a 4-2-3-1 formation being tested with Coutinho in the hole, Moses on the left or right flank, swapping with Sturridge or Suarez and one of the SAS in the centre.
Hendo is fast becoming Mr. Versatile and he's definitely a valuable member of the team.

It'll be a litmus test when we meet Arsenal in a few weeks' time.

[PhaseOfPlay]

We were top notch in the first half. Even though we beat Palace comfortably, something tells me something is not quite right with the team. I mean, we have not put on a good show for a full 90 minutes. In most matches, we win them in the first half. Not comfortably in all matches but most of them. What is it then? Focus? Stamina? To be really honest, we haven't played a tough opposition yet. One can't throw ManU in the mix because they're clearly "in transition".

That's the end of the 'bad news'.

Here's the 'good news':
Loved the way SAS and Moses operated. When Coutinho returns, I'd like to see a 4-2-3-1 formation being tested with Coutinho in the hole, Moses on the left or right flank, swapping with Sturridge or Suarez and one of the SAS in the centre.
Hendo is fast becoming Mr. Versatile and he's definitely a valuable member of the team.

It'll be a litmus test when we meet Arsenal in a few weeks' time.

That becomes a 4-4-2 very quickly with either of Sturridge or Suarez. That position needs a natural attacking midfielder, meaning that Coutinho, Alberto or, for variety, Henderson have to play there in a 4-2-3-1. Suarez or Sturridge there means we'll get very exposed in the middle. It always ends up as a 4-1-3-2 anyway, which isolates the holding midfielder because Gerrard can't go forward and get back quick enough, and we end up losing territory in front of our back four

[Robinred]

That becomes a 4-4-2 very quickly with either of Sturridge or Suarez. That position needs a natural attacking midfielder, meaning that Coutinho, Alberto or, for variety, Henderson have to play there in a 4-2-3-1. Suarez or Sturridge there means we'll get very exposed in the middle. It always ends up as a 4-1-3-2 anyway, which isolates the holding midfielder because Gerrard can't go forward and get back quick enough, and we end up losing territory in front of our back four

I am suffering a strong case of deja-vu.

I can’t provide exact dates, but I do recall a handful of occasions since the “glory days”, when L.F.C were sitting at or near the top of the Premier League. And 2009 aside, on each occasion, as now, our league position was accompanied by an uncomfortable feeling that we were in a false position, and our results somehow masked a deep-rooted disquiet about the ACTUAL strength of the team and squad (sorry, group).

We have some great talent currently. Suarez and Sturridge are as good as there are in Europe and the signs are that they can only get better. Coutinho is a special player; so is Steven Gerrard  (though I hate to see his physical decline). Despite misgivings about his kicking, Mignolet is an impressive shotstopper.

The debates in this thread and elsewhere concerning the relative merits, weaknesses and optimum positions of the remainder are testament to how unconvinced many observers remain about squad depth in general, and key players in particular. I haven’t a clue how Brendan might solve the Enrique enigma, for example; the assumption that Cissokho will provide the solution is surely premature.

My biggest concern is one highlighted in the thread asking what happened to Tiki Taka, and addressed specifically in the Gerrard and Lucas thread – the strong feeling that results are great, but performances much less convincing. The same misgivings are highlighted - full backs/wingbacks, corners for and against, the flimsiness of our defensive midfield shield. The result is an acknowledgement of our seeming inability to last 90 minutes, to press high, to recycle the ball, to dominate possession as we did so recently, to physically match but technically outplay opposing teams.

I watched the Arsenal game twice yesterday – and the ensuing analysis. I agreed with the consensus; the key to West Brom’s impressive display was the midfield shield offered by Mulumbu and Yacob and the determination to prevent Arsenal playing through them. I find myself, against all my instincts, and certainly flying in the face of current fashion, longing for a Makalele/Mascherano figure in our midfield, or at least a Diame, Delph or current equivalent. In other words players considerably better without the ball than with it.

As an aside, I think this current team would do very well in La Liga; I am concerned about our ability to last the pace of the Premiership. On the other hand, maybe my concerns and analysis are just outdated, on the wrong side of history.

[wah00ey]

I can't talk in any great detail around the game as I've only seen the highlights.  What I can say, though, is that there aren't many players that would have scored the goal Suarez (Chomps  ) did.  He just doesn't stop until the opportunity has 100% disappeared.  Not 99%, not even 99.999999% but 100%.

He's capable of scoring every conceivable kind of goal - from the half way line, tap-ins, free kicks, long shots, headers, volleys, acute angles, dribbles and chips - anything you can think of.  And that's what makes him the player he is.  He has faults as a player, no doubt (greed, poor decision making at times etc.) and as a man, but in 38 years of watching football I've never seen such a complete goalscoring package.

If only he had blistering pace, can you imagine?

[OldBloke]

I thought Sterling got a lot of stick for doing exactly what Rodgers probably told him to do. I'm sure he'd love to run at defenders instead of what he was doing but in that formation the risk is too high, if he loses the ball there is not much behind him.
I thought Henderson had a great game, much better in the middle than he is on the right.
I cannot understand how we can play with three centre halves in the team and still concede from set piece crosses. That stupid goal cost us being top for two weeks!

[DanA]

the flimsiness of our defensive midfield shield. The result is an acknowledgement of our seeming inability to last 90 minutes, to press high, to recycle the ball, to dominate possession as we did so recently, to physically match but technically outplay opposing teams.

I watched the Arsenal game twice yesterday – and the ensuing analysis. I agreed with the consensus; the key to West Brom’s impressive display was the midfield shield offered by Mulumbu and Yacob and the determination to prevent Arsenal playing through them. I find myself, against all my instincts, and certainly flying in the face of current fashion, longing for a Makalele/Mascherano figure in our midfield, or at least a Diame, Delph or current equivalent. In other words players considerably better without the ball than with it.

I think your concerns are valid but my solution would be slightly different. In regard to the stuff i've quoted I think it all comes down to us asking too much of our midfield. If you look at Westbrom they were pretty ordinary until they switched from a 4-2-2 where Yacob and Mulumbu were isolate to a three man midfield where Sessegnon was introduced as an extra midfeilder. That change coincided with the up turn in performances. I think we're in the same boat, we're not playing fantastically because Moses/Aspas aren't midfielders. IMO we'll look a whole lot better when we can have a three man midfield. So far though Henderson has been needed elsewhere and Coutinho and Allen have been injured so we haven't had the option.

[Robinred]

I think your concerns are valid but my solution would be slightly different. In regard to the stuff i've quoted I think it all comes down to us asking too much of our midfield. If you look at Westbrom they were pretty ordinary until they switched from a 4-2-2 where Yacob and Mulumbu were isolate to a three man midfield where Sessegnon was introduced as an extra midfeilder. That change coincided with the up turn in performances. I think we're in the same boat, we're not playing fantastically because Moses/Aspas aren't midfielders. IMO we'll look a whole lot better when we can have a three man midfield. So far though Henderson has been needed elsewhere and Coutinho and Allen have been injured so we haven't had the option.

But, as was implied by P.O.P's post above, but not made explicit, the elephant in the room remains, presuming Gerrard keeps his place based on his outstanding contribution with the ball at his feet and thus putting up with his inability to contribute enough "without the ball".

Because if the remaining midfielders are Coutinho and Lucas (there's no place for Henderson is there?), and the wing backs are Johnson and Enrique/Cissokho, our back 3 are still vulnerable. In other words, something has to give. Brendan shows no inclination to "rest" his skipper.

[PhaseOfPlay]

But, as was implied by P.O.P's post above, but not made explicit, the elephant in the room remains, presuming Gerrard keeps his place based on his outstanding contribution with the ball at his feet and thus putting up with his inability to contribute enough "without the ball".

Because if the remaining midfielders are Coutinho and Lucas (there's no place for Henderson is there?), and the wing backs are Johnson and Enrique/Cissokho, our back 3 are still vulnerable. In other words, something has to give. Brendan shows no inclination to "rest" his skipper.

Actually, the point I was making is that Suarez behind Sturridge doesn't work The rest was just the domino effect that would have on the rest of the team

[Dr Abismo]

Everyone's aware of it, but still don't seem to take it seriously enough. I'm talking about how very young Sterling still is - still only 18? I thought it was a big ask, for him to play wingback in a system like that - it's a lot of work and responsibility, a lot of ground to cover, and a big call on his experience and positional play.

I though he did well, working hard, trying to win the ball, given that he's basically filling in for when we've got Johnson back. His best position will be attacking from wide, which isn't where Brendan's got room for him right now. He's been intensively coached in 'defensive duties' for the last couple of years, given his natural attacking flair, and he seems to be wanting to show the manager how much he's taken all that to heart. It will be good to see him take that stuff for granted soon, doing it naturally but getting back to his main talent of taking players on and running past them, when he's at least got some cover behind him for doing it.

[Robinred]

Actually, the point I was making is that Suarez behind Sturridge doesn't work The rest was just the domino effect that would have on the rest of the team

My apologies. No implication, then, that whatever the formation up top, a midfield where our skipper has both attacking AND defensive responsibilities, has inherent problems?

[walshys_mullet]

Loving the 3-5-2, i've been banging that drum for a while, we've always had the personnel to do it much more than this 4-3-3 o4 4-3-1-2.

For the match itself the first half was sublime. It was only Palace but we've cocked up in the past. We had power, pace and threat and should have scored at least 6. Palace had their moments, but for now im putting it down to the new formation. Either that or our midfield remains problematic.

The second half drop off was disappointing, and i dont know why collectively we do it. I thought we were much better at Sunderland last week were after an initial 10 minutes of the second half, we did retain control of the game and finally killed them off.

Player wise Sterling completely flummox's me. This was a guy who looked fearless last year with great balance and dribbling ability. Where has that gone? Has it been drilled out of him? Is it confidence? He seems to get into good positions but then freezes and goes safe.

Gerrard for me either has to play further forward with no defensive responsibility or be replaced, as we still get cut through at times. Im hoping Allen comes back into the mix soon but for January for us to buy another DM, one with some power as we are very low stocked in that area and we need reinforcement.

But we are doing well, so cant complain about things too much. need to keep it up until Arsenal and take it from there.

[PhaseOfPlay]

My apologies. No implication, then, that whatever the formation up top, a midfield where our skipper has both attacking AND defensive responsibilities, has inherent problems?

Oh it does have problems, I agree, but I wasn't focusing on that part. That particular problem is only really solved by the idea of "rotation" I think. It will be interesting to see how Rodgers deals with it. Gerrard can do magic stuff, but he can't do it box to box anymore. Not for 38 games anyway

[The Mule]

To Phaseofplay and our other resident tactical geniuses, do you think there's a feasible way to squeeze Coutinho, Moses, Suarez and Strurridge into the side without any of them having to curtail their instincts too much and with them playing in their best areas and to their strengths?

[PhaseOfPlay]

To Phaseofplay and our other resident tactical geniuses, do you think there's a feasible way to squeeze Coutinho, Moses, Suarez and Strurridge into the side without any of them having to curtail their instincts too much and with them playing in their best areas and to their strengths?

Not without a Mascherano type midfielder behind them

[Zoomers]

To Phaseofplay and our other resident tactical geniuses, do you think there's a feasible way to squeeze Coutinho, Moses, Suarez and Strurridge into the side without any of them having to curtail their instincts too much and with them playing in their best areas and to their strengths?

I say fuck it and play with 12 players. And yes I am a tactical genius.

[The Mule]

Not without a Mascherano type midfielder behind them

Hmmm feared that would be the answer. You don't think a mobile Allen/Henderson and Lucas in behind could do it?

[PhaseOfPlay]

Hmmm feared that would be the answer. You don't think a mobile Allen/Henderson and Lucas in behind could do it?

Not for the amount of space that would have to be covered. It would require a Yaya Toure physical specimen with good control and the willingness to defend on the front foot.

[PhaseOfPlay]

I say fuck it and play with 12 players. And yes I am a tactical genius.

Or Stuart Pearce

[Frizzo]

Only just got to watch the game in full.

Must say I was fearing watching Enrique after all the stick he got on here, but I actually thought he was pretty wonderful.

One terrible pass in the second half aside, I don't think he didn't anything terrible, and he always carried an attacking threat.




Also, why does Aspas get a yellow card for kicking the ball away when Giggs gets away with it, and get a yellow card for waving an imaginary card at the ref when a Sunderland player got away with the exact same thing against Man U?! Inconsistencies.

[Yorkykopite]

Everyone's aware of it, but still don't seem to take it seriously enough. I'm talking about how very young Sterling still is - still only 18? I thought it was a big ask, for him to play wingback in a system like that - it's a lot of work and responsibility, a lot of ground to cover, and a big call on his experience and positional play.

I though he did well, working hard, trying to win the ball, given that he's basically filling in for when we've got Johnson back. His best position will be attacking from wide, which isn't where Brendan's got room for him right now. He's been intensively coached in 'defensive duties' for the last couple of years, given his natural attacking flair, and he seems to be wanting to show the manager how much he's taken all that to heart. It will be good to see him take that stuff for granted soon, doing it naturally but getting back to his main talent of taking players on and running past them, when he's at least got some cover behind him for doing it.

Well said Doc.

[Prof]

Not for the amount of space that would have to be covered. It would require a Yaya Toure physical specimen with good control and the willingness to defend on the front foot.

I think Henderson could do that to a decent level, just not alongside Stevie.

[Halcyon Lissome]

I watched the Arsenal game twice yesterday – and the ensuing analysis. I agreed with the consensus; the key to West Brom’s impressive display was the midfield shield offered by Mulumbu and Yacob and the determination to prevent Arsenal playing through them. I find myself, against all my instincts, and certainly flying in the face of current fashion, longing for a Makalele/Mascherano figure in our midfield, or at least a Diame, Delph or current equivalent. In other words players considerably better without the ball than with it.

I think people forget that Arsenal are missing their widemen and have put central midfielders who are capable of playmaking out wide. That makes them far too narrow and plays into WBA's hands - they have a very good and capable pairing.

It was the kind of tactical mistake Rodgers made against Southampton. In theory it doesn't sound bad, it might work against certain teams; but it has the potential to go balls up.

[JackWard33]

Not for the amount of space that would have to be covered. It would require a Yaya Toure physical specimen with good control and the willingness to defend on the front foot.

He was available two summers ago - Dembele would have been perfect in that set up and allowed Gerrard to sit
We really need to find the next toure / Dembele .... either that or use kolo as a hostage to get yaya here

[groove]

Sorry to go off track, but how fucking good was Mulumbu yesterday?

£175k they got him for.

[jake11]

True. But they were 2-3 years in the making (86-87, 87-88, 88-89), and were built on the back of league title success since the early 80's. This team is coming from a different perspective, and needs some time (although don't forget, we put a few teams to the sword last season too)

Well that 86-87 team only scored 4 or more in the league 5 times, one of which was a 4-3 at home to Leicester. 87-88 were quite a bit more gung ho getting 4 or more 11 times, and 88-89 only managed it 4 times, although 3 of these were 5 goal spankings. Handing out thrashings wasn't our mindset,  control and domination was, which was even more evident if you go back a bit further to the days of Paisley. Well, at least that's how my childhood memories playback. 

I was not concerned about our display on Saturday in terms of us not handing Palace a thrashing. We won the game in the first half and settled in to cruise control. Nothing wrong with that, we could have stepped it up if required.

My concern from Saturday was once again the centre of our midfield. I thought Gerrard-Henderson was an improvement but it was against a Palace side that surrendered the midfield to us. Given how much of a Liverpool fan Holloway is you would have thought he would have watched us a few times this season, and as a result, gone after us in midfield. One good signing in January and we could look like contenders.

[Filler.]

Sorry to go off track, but how fucking good was Mulumbu yesterday?

£175k they got him for.

Have to say I too was thinking 'I'd like a bit of that.' Didn't see the whole game, but saw a large part of it. But yeah... something like that is needed. Bit of bite, a bit of box to box, wanting to collect the ball, turn and do something.

[JimmySpindle]

Sorry to go off track, but how fucking good was Mulumbu yesterday?

£175k they got him for.

I thought the same thing! Did we think of buying him over the summer or am I going crazy? He'd be perfect for us based on that performance alone. It'd be nice to have a bit of strength in the middle. Yaya Toure would be perfect, unlikely as it is. What other candidates would there be?

Anyway I thought we played as well as can be expected without a proper RWB. Coutinho and Johnson in and we'll do some business.

[BabuYagu]

Sorry to go off track, but how fucking good was Mulumbu yesterday?

£175k they got him for.

It´s all about taking a chance on some unwanted kid from a big youth setup. For every Mulumbu who can be moulded into a solid Premier League player, there are dozens who don´t. We did try to do the same thing nabbing players like Plessis(Lyon) and N'Gog (PSG) from france around the same age.

[jckliew]

Diame for the destroyer role?  Anyone?

[BazC]

But how would a Mulumbu fair if he was in a midfield whose purpose is to try and control possession, and be the main driver for an attacking team? As opposed to a tightly organised midfield looking to aggressively defend space? I mean, I'm sure our lads, Lucas, Henderson and Gerrard can do that just fine - even on current form. They did it against the Mancs earlier in the season for most of the match after we went 1-0 up.

Mulumbu looked good, but in the context of that game, his team and the system they were playing. Vastly different to ours. I haven't watched him enough to say that he wouldn't fit in well in a more expansive team by the way. But it's why players like Adam and Downing looked crap when they came here.

[juan1001]

I think this thread should have started with a mention of Ian Holloway singing YNWA along with the crowd, I was touched.

Top post Yorky!

Ian was paying homage to his deceased father. YNWA was his favorite song.

[trembles97]

Set piece goals are quite annoying. Lack of focus, intensity, etc etc.

Think Henderson was good, and Sterling should be given another chance against Newcastle. Even if Johnson's fit, put him at LWB and Sterling at RWB.

Wonder if Sakho/Agger can play in the middle of the 3 cause Skrtel always seems to be playing near the tipping point of a horrendous mistake IMO

[DanA]

If Johnson is back next game then I'd hope we shift Henderson to AM in place of Moses. You can almost guarantee we'd then dominate the midfield and I'd back Suarez and Sturridge with good supply to dominate any opposition.

[NaivetyinBlack]

Well, I wouldn't mind Moses being shifted as a wingback as soon as Coutinho returns, at least at home against opposition who sit back and counter. He would be very handy in unlocking the defenses and with him and Sturridge plus Suarez, we would practically have 3 good options for Coutinho to pick a pass for almost for the full games. It's a very attack minded, albeit workable formation.

[Rohit]

If Johnson is back next game then I'd hope we shift Henderson to AM in place of Moses. You can almost guarantee we'd then dominate the midfield and I'd back Suarez and Sturridge with good supply to dominate any opposition.

Really hate the thought of Henderson playing there. His awareness is poor and his touch is nowhere near good enough to play there. Nor does he have the vision to play there to open up defenses. I'd rather Gerrard play there if anyone, atleast he has a killer instinct in the final third and good enough movement to play there.

[dumaten]

Neither Henderson nor Gerrard would work well there. Gerrard has lost the explosive acceleration he would use to find space for himself, and you know if he's not getting on the ball for the first 15 minutes he's going to drop deeper and deeper leaving the front two isolated. Henderson doesn't carry the ball well enough or manipulate it to draw defenders, the opposition would just close down the obvious passes and the ball goes back to midfield.

[DanA]

Really hate the thought of Henderson playing there. His awareness is poor and his touch is nowhere near good enough to play there. Nor does he have the vision to play there to open up defenses. I'd rather Gerrard play there if anyone, atleast he has a killer instinct in the final third and good enough movement to play there.

I get the concerns and I don't like it as a long term solution for those exact reasons but my feeling is that right now we have a striker partnership that oozes creativity and class...we can afford to sacrifice a bit of creativity provided it helps us gain control in the midfield. I'm all for Gerrard playing there ahead of Henderson, to be honest when I made the suggestion I envisioned them interchanging a bit.

Compared to Coutinho there's no contest but if it's between Moses or Henderson then as a no.10 I'd much prefer Henderson.

[Redcap]

Is my memory failing me, or did Henderson do a decent job as an attacking midfielder in the latter half of last season, during our good run?