Author Topic: Systems - Space, Time and the Principles of Play  (Read 33235 times)

Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Systems - Space, Time and the Principles of Play
« on: January 10, 2013, 05:35:32 am »
Intro from the Editor

It feels odd doing an intro, but as we've now seen a couple of Systems threads, I should maybe explain what we've been brewing in our smoke- and liquor-filled Scribes' bunker.

The original idea here was to do a series of posts on systems-related subjects, because we've seen a lot of good stuff on that subject on the boards this last few months. That's not to say we didn't always have that kind of discussion - it's just the quality of analysis has been noticably excellent of late.

PhaseofPlay's background means he has more to say on this topic, so in due course he'll be following it up with another. Please weigh in with your thoughts and remember, no question is a daft question in this context. We can't complain about the quality of punditry and journalism in our country if we're not prepared to learn for ourselves, eh?

Over to PhaseofPlay...


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Space, Time and the Principles of Play

In light of Royhendo's "Systems" threads, I thought I would add something that might help people with analyzing what the objectives are that Brendan Rodgers might be looking at during his tenure at Liverpool FC. This thread in the "Systems" series will concern itself with the Principles of Attack and Defence that seek to manipulate the available space in a game of football, and how different teams might get their identity by concentrating on specific principles in their system of play.

Space + Time = Tactics –

A lot of people reduce the game, in several ways, to a simplistic explanation that does neither the game nor its concepts proper justice. Some people like to say that the game is 11v11 and whoever has the better players will win. This is only partially true. Others will say that the game is eleven 1v1’s, and whoever wins the most 1v1 battles will win the game. This is also only partially true. What drives the game more than any other concepts are the notions of time and space. Everything in the game happens in relation to these two concepts, and these two concepts are fundamentally related to each other. In short, when a team has the ball, they want to create as much space as possible and take advantage of any space that the defending team leaves empty. Conversely, the defending team wants to reduce space as much as they can, both locally around the ball and, through use of the offside line, globally away from the ball. This is the principle of compactness. There are a number of determinants of how space and time are manipulated. One is skill. The most skilful players have the ability to create space around them, and space equals time; time, then, affords the player the ability to make better decisions. Another determinant is intelligence. This is evidenced in positioning, movement and speed of play. And the determinant we will focus on, which encompasses the others, is formation and strategy. This works first on a global level, and moves to a local level at the ball in how it creates, manages and manipulates space. A game, then, is a constant contest between two groups of players trying to change the space the other team is working in, either by expanding or creating it on the attack, or reducing it and compacting it on defence.

Principles of Attack and Defence –


The tools that are used to manipulate this space are generally called the “Principles of Play”, divided into attack and defence principles. They have some national variations and different explanations, but they essentially drive at the same thing – how a team or a sub-section of a team can manipulate space with the ball and without the ball. The Principles of Play, additionally, can and do counteract each other, all things being equal. They are to be seen below:




The common principle of both attack and defence is Depth. This basically means a team needs more than one layer or line of action to their team, and is why we have team that play in 2, 3 or 4 lines or units. The specific principles of attack that we will refer to, then, are Penetration, Width, Support, and Mobility. This is best remembered in the maxim “if you can’t go forward, go wide; if you can’t go wide, go back; if you can’t go back, then move until you can go forward again”. The corresponding defensive principles, then, are Pressure/Delay (to prevent penetration), Cover (to mark the supporting attackers), Balance (to ensure that width doesn’t create central space through which to penetrate) and Consolidation/Concentration (to ensure that mobility doesn’t destroy the shape of the defence). If we understand that these principles are continually going back and forth, from transition to transition, and that all successful teams operate all of the principles at any one phase of the game, then we can begin to examine the impact of formations and mobility within formations with each other. It can be said, almost, that the best teams build through the principles, and that the very best are adept at the last principles better than most of their opponents – they make better late runs and have better movement on attack, and they consolidate in any area of the field around the ball in a disciplined manner better than any of their opponents can attack. A good attacking team will have players who can penetrate on the dribble or with a pass. It will have players who understand the need for quick support in both the positive and negative space around the ball (positive space for construction of the attack, negative space for retaining possession and switching play). It will also have players making blindside runs and late runs to the back post at the execution of the final ball. Conversely, a good team will understand when it is right to apply immediate pressure and when it is right to delay; how supporting players should be marked and their runs tracked; and importantly, maintaining balance and consolidation in front of goal in the defensive third, to reduce the chance of conceding and increasing the chance of a regained possession.


How the Principles affect Team Play –


When we look at the Principles of Play individually, then, we can instantly recognize that there are certain principles that could be considered hallmarks of different teams. For example, if we look at Manchester United, we can see that their main focus in terms of attacking Principles is Width – they play, currently, almost a 4-2-4 formation, or even a 4-1-1-4 at times, with the two wingers staying wide, stretching the play, and creating space for the midfield two to act as anchors in order to switch the play if one side gets congested:



Similarly, if we look at Barcelona, we can see that their main attacking Principle is Mobility (although Support is also a large factor in their play):



Other teams tend to focus on defensive Principles. A Hodgson team, for example, tends to focus almost exclusively on Consolidation, working on the basis that covering the space in front of goal makes it more difficult for the other team to score  (largely true), leaving the attack up to fast counterattacking patterns (penetration) to score goals:



So we can see that although formations might be the same, one man’s 4-4-2 is different to another’s, based on which principle of play the team is focused on. A team that wants to win the ball early will focus on the defensive principle of Pressure, with Cover as a secondary principle. A team that wants to focus on penetration will usually have a target player up front to play up to with runners from midfield attempting to get beyond the target man. A team that wants to focus on possession will need to focus a lot more on Mobility to ensure passing options for the man on the ball at all times, while a team that wants to cut out passes will focus on Balance, ensuring the weakside of the defensive zone is always covered. It is within these principles of play that teams assert their identity as much as in the skills of the individual players.

How does this affect a Brendan Rodgers team ?


In terms of the style of play that Rodgers has brought to the team, it is interesting that although there are many comparisons to Barcelona, the team that Rodgers’ system is most based on, in terms of principles, is Van Gaal’s Ajax from 1995 – a team that was the epitome of support angles. If we look at the real shape of the ideal Rodgers’ Liverpool, it morphs between a 2-3-2-3 and a quasi-3-4-3, with Lucas dropping into the central defence much like Busquets does for Barca. The key difference is that while Barcelona make more penetrating runs beyond the man on the ball (or they just penetrate through the dribbling of Iniesta and Messi), the current Liverpool team base their movements on taking up supporting angles for the man in possession, and building penetration in phases. This requires that almost all players stay in their shape so that at any point in a possession, the man on the ball should know exactly where his support options are. This means that, Suarez apart, the mobility Liverpool seeks is mobility of the ball rather than mobility of the positions. If we look at the 2-3-2-3, we can see that it lends itself to some excellent support angles:




These angles allow the players to play the possession game with less regard for vision and more regard for distances and passing lanes between players. It allows the ball to be moved with speed and accuracy, and makes use of negative space passes as well as positive space passes. We can see then, that when a team is playing against an on-form Liverpool, that the passing can be mesmerizing, the ball moving from player to player, line to line, with ease. When Liverpool get into this rhythm, and a player makes an unexpected move from position, it creates a moment of indecision in the opposition defence, and typically results in a bad move from the defender that creates space for a Liverpool player. Good examples of this are Cole’s goal against West Ham, and Suarez’s goal against Sunderland from Gerrard’s pass into the space created by Downing’s crossfield run. This is the model of a Rodgers attack, and something that will become more consistent with time. Later, we shall look at how different formations might react to these movements, and how mobility, added to the support structure of the Rodgers system, will help to unbalance and destroy the structure of an opposition system – something that will become important in the future against defensively disciplined teams like Villa and Stoke.


« Last Edit: January 11, 2013, 01:36:02 pm by PhaseofPlay »
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Offline Gnurglan

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Re: Systems - Space, Time and the Principles of Play
« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2013, 10:57:56 am »
Well put. You've described very well how things differ between different formations.

I like what you've done with the final formation in there. The 2-3-2-3. The angles are clear, but the main thing for me is that this is roughly how I see our team. It's built for when we have the ball. We can move the ball around and keep it. We've also seen that we can find ways to score goals through Suarez. I guess you'll come to this later, but where I see the weakness is in defence. If we compare to the Hodgson side, we wouldn't have the same type of compact structure. So when we lose the ball, we're in trouble. I'd like to know how you think we should get the right balance between attack and defence. How can we be more compact in defence, without going catenaccio? For the time being that may be three at the back (I know you've said so before), but how did Ajax do it?

        * * * * * *


"The key isn't the system itself, but how the players adapt on the pitch. It doesn't matter if it's 4-3-3 or 4-4-2, it's the role of the players that counts." Rafa Benitez

royhendo

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Re: Systems - Space, Time and the Principles of Play
« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2013, 11:23:32 am »
So, dude, based on our discussions elsewhere, is this a fair summary of the first section?

Truisms about football
The objective being to win, and with a game based on two teams of eleven men defending a goal while trying to score in the other one, truisms apply (do x or y successfully and you'll win, a or b are the key), some of which are only partly true, others of which are always true.


Truisms that are only partly true

Have a better 11 players than the other team (not in itself enough)

Win more of 11 x 1v1 battles than the other team (not in itself enough)

These are only really fully true when the two formations match/neutralise each other.


Truisms that are always true

Space and time drive the game.

When they have the ball, you need to deny their players that space and time - individually and collectively.

When you have the ball, you need to create and exploit as much time and space as you can - individually and collectively.

(The order in which you think about the last two points usually dictates your approach to team building - most managers start by trying to organise the first... first.)

Doing that well requires skill, decision making and intelligence, with the evidence being good positioning, good movement, and speed of play.

Translating that intelligence from the individual level to the 11 players as a unit involves formation and strategy. Formation and strategy are about controlling time and space, both as a unit, and in more detail, around the man on the ball. (More on that in your later posts in the series!)
« Last Edit: January 10, 2013, 11:27:21 am by royhendo »

Offline nocturnalvin

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Re: Systems - Space, Time and the Principles of Play
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2013, 07:46:58 am »
Is it just me or in recent games, our two CBs hadn't spread that wide, as compared to early games. It seems to coincide with better team movement , better consistent movement indeed.

Offline Eeyore

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Re: Systems - Space, Time and the Principles of Play
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2013, 08:27:19 am »
So, dude, based on our discussions elsewhere, is this a fair summary of the first section?

Truisms about football
The objective being to win, and with a game based on two teams of eleven men defending a goal while trying to score in the other one, truisms apply (do x or y successfully and you'll win, a or b are the key), some of which are only partly true, others of which are always true.


Truisms that are only partly true

Have a better 11 players than the other team (not in itself enough)

Win more of 11 x 1v1 battles than the other team (not in itself enough)

These are only really fully true when the two formations match/neutralise each other.


Truisms that are always true

Space and time drive the game.

When they have the ball, you need to deny their players that space and time - individually and collectively.

When you have the ball, you need to create and exploit as much time and space as you can - individually and collectively.


(The order in which you think about the last two points usually dictates your approach to team building - most managers start by trying to organise the first... first.)

Doing that well requires skill, decision making and intelligence, with the evidence being good positioning, good movement, and speed of play.

Translating that intelligence from the individual level to the 11 players as a unit involves formation and strategy. Formation and strategy are about controlling time and space, both as a unit, and in more detail, around the man on the ball. (More on that in your later posts in the series!)

Thought provoking OP and response by Roy.

Have to disagree with the bolded bit though.

There are plenty of coaches, who don't want the ball and want to give the opponent the ball with time and space but only in certain areas of the pitch. If you are disciplined and keep your position and let your opponent have the ball you can actually wear them out, you can suck them up the pitch and you can overload positions on the counter.

It is often not about possession or territory but about creating 2 v 1 in dangerous positions during the transitions. You can lose 95% of the game but win by managing the transitions, creating one or two 2 v 1's and being ruthless enough to exploit them. When the majority of goals are scored through set pieces and counter attacks does holding on to the ball mean you are closer to scoring or closer to being exploited on the counter.

That doesn't mean the answer is to play POMO but for me it means you have to vary your play, become less predictable and above all become harder to play against.
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Offline Homo rubrum

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Re: Systems - Space, Time and the Principles of Play
« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2013, 08:29:30 am »
Truism: brevity is the soul of wit*

Truism made false:  When it comes to Phase of Play's posts, brevity is really only cruelty masked, as I am devastated when they end. 

I hope these system posts keep coming ad infinitum. 
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Offline Geppvindh's

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Re: Systems - Space, Time and the Principles of Play
« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2013, 08:33:55 am »
Just a clarification, it's Rafael who is Man United's right back and not Fabio. And Valencia is their right winger, not Anderson.

I've just started digesting the OP, I am loving it PoP.

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Re: Systems - Space, Time and the Principles of Play
« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2013, 10:28:50 am »
Truisms that are always true

Space and time drive the game.


Not sure about this.  I think football is unusual. Goals drive games and they can come out of the blue and against the run of play. Football is one of the few games were the better team can lose with a fair degree of regularity.

Space and time give the impression of driving the game, a false sense of control that one long punt can evaporate in seconds. One of the joys is that it gives the underdog a chance. In that respect 'luck' is possibly a bigger component of football than most coaches and tacticians would like. However excellent the system everything cannot be controlled and if it could be we should all pack up and go home.




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Re: Systems - Space, Time and the Principles of Play
« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2013, 10:29:54 am »
Ta for the reply Al - it's an interesting one - I think it's only a difference of emphasis.

There are plenty of coaches, who don't want the ball and want to give the opponent the ball with time and space but only in certain areas of the pitch...
 
It is often not about possession or territory but about creating 2 v 1 in dangerous positions during the transitions. You can lose 95% of the game but win by managing the transitions, creating one or two 2 v 1's and being ruthless enough to exploit them. When the majority of goals are scored through set pieces and counter attacks does holding on to the ball mean you are closer to scoring or closer to being exploited on the counter.

That doesn't mean the answer is to play POMO but for me it means you have to vary your play, become less predictable and above all become harder to play against.

For me that's still the product of a manager's interpretation of space, time and principles of play. It's just devoted to different areas of the park.

Offline murdell

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Re: Systems - Space, Time and the Principles of Play
« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2013, 11:15:19 am »
I think you take a holistic approach to the team when you are building a system. Like a top down view, who complements who on the pitch, for instance a marauding full back may well have a midfielder sitting there not getting sucked up the pitch in order to balance that side. Or as Brendan pointed out before Downing would naturally take up positions Enrique would like to attack so was shifted right. But at this point your thinking how you want patterns to develop an ideal if you will.

Then you start to zone in on the players you have and how they fit that ideal. Note I'm talking ideaised systems and not so much pragmatism. This takes me back to the Downing + Enrique example. In order to free space for Enrique down the line preferably you would have one ahead of him who naturally moves inside opening that space. We see this a lot on the right hand side where Sterling comes off the wing and Johnson has room to attack. The position Sterling gets into is an awkward one to mark its almost halfway between fullback and defender, if the fullback goes Johnson is released if the defender goes then there is space for Suarez to run into.

There is a full length Ajax v Gremero(spelling) on YouTube from 1995 if people want to check it out,  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKdE8e1yM9s&feature=youtube_gdata_player
« Last Edit: January 11, 2013, 11:24:30 am by murdell »

Offline Eeyore

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Re: Systems - Space, Time and the Principles of Play
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2013, 11:30:14 am »
Ta for the reply Al - it's an interesting one - I think it's only a difference of emphasis.

For me that's still the product of a manager's interpretation of space, time and principles of play. It's just devoted to different areas of the park.

The thing is though Roy it is only Barca and Spain's success that has changed the notion that it is good to dominate possession before that the emphasis was on keeping your shape and dominating the areas in front of your and your opponents back four. These things tend to act like a pendulum when things go too far in one direction then someone will come up with a way of playing that exploits that swing.

Is Spain and Barca's domination the culmination of an obsession with counter attacking Football combined with a truly exceptional set of players. Are we going down a path that will mean by the time we crack it things will of evolved and we are left playing catch up again. Are we following a trend instead of forging our own.

We keep hearing about the Dutch philosophy of the 90's but that has ended in decades of failure because it failed to evolve and keep pace with the realities of modern football. If we are looking to be successful in five years time shouldn't we be looking to create something ahead of it's time instead of paying homage to the past. 
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Offline Fuzion6

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Re: Systems - Space, Time and the Principles of Play
« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2013, 11:34:42 am »
Interesting post. One of the issues I have with the current system is that in our quest to create the correct angles and allow for ball mobility - we have been playing the 2 centre-backs very wide to provide space for the angles. The problem here is that when/if we lose the ball, the space created to allow for more effective ball transfer is now our foe and allows teams to easily exploit the most direct route to goal (the middle of the pitch). In some ways this is what Diego Simeone meant recently when he said having too much of the ball can be a bad thing. For us, much of our passing early season has been recycling, non-penetrative passing more intent which has lead to the defensive issues.

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Re: Systems - Space, Time and the Principles of Play
« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2013, 12:00:23 pm »
I personally think the o.p. is style, formation and balance agnostic Al. PhaseofPlay even illustrates this using a Hodgson set up as a contrast.

I think your point is a good one though - there's always that stone paper scissors thing going on, and fashion dictates to a great extent, but Spain and Barca are just modern instances of a much much longer tradition in my view. There's nothing wrong with structure to your game. If your approach allows that structure to come with attacking emphasis, all the better, no?

As for Simeone, it's easy to say a team can have too much of the ball when you've got Radamel Falcao up top. Counter attacking football will get you so far, but it won't get you all the way as consistently as you'd like if you've got genuine ambition. For me it should be an option, rather than the default. But that's my preference.

Laudrup's interview with El Pais is maybe more compelling.

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Re: Systems - Space, Time and the Principles of Play
« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2013, 12:16:24 pm »
I personally think the o.p. is style, formation and balance agnostic Al. PhaseofPlay even illustrates this using a Hodgson set up as a contrast.

I think your point is a good one though - there's always that stone paper scissors thing going on, and fashion dictates to a great extent, but Spain and Barca are just modern instances of a much much longer tradition in my view. There's nothing wrong with structure to your game. If your approach allows that structure to come with attacking emphasis, all the better, no?

As for Simeone, it's easy to say a team can have too much of the ball when you've got Radamel Falcao up top. Counter attacking football will get you so far, but it won't get you all the way as consistently as you'd like if you've got genuine ambition. For me it should be an option, rather than the default. But that's my preference.

Laudrup's interview with El Pais is maybe more compelling.

Agree about the OP but is Spain and Barca's domination down to the continuation of a tradition or is it down to being able to exploit that very modern trend of producing huge midfield players who look to dominate physically. Even Brazil started looking at producing huge central midfield players who could physically dominate instead of having playmakers and looking to dominate possession.

For me the pendulums swung too far and both Barca and Spain have produced midfield's of small nimble players who are simply too sharp and quick of thought and foot for the lumbering giants. Teams are beginning too catch on to that and for me it is going to be much harder for the next generation of Xavi's and Iniesta's.
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Re: Systems - Space, Time and the Principles of Play
« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2013, 12:24:39 pm »
I personally think the o.p. is style, formation and balance agnostic Al. PhaseofPlay even illustrates this using a Hodgson set up as a contrast.

I think your point is a good one though - there's always that stone paper scissors thing going on, and fashion dictates to a great extent, but Spain and Barca are just modern instances of a much much longer tradition in my view. There's nothing wrong with structure to your game. If your approach allows that structure to come with attacking emphasis, all the better, no?

As for Simeone, it's easy to say a team can have too much of the ball when you've got Radamel Falcao up top. Counter attacking football will get you so far, but it won't get you all the way as consistently as you'd like if you've got genuine ambition. For me it should be an option, rather than the default. But that's my preference.

Laudrup's interview with El Pais is maybe more compelling.
Roy - do you not think that 2 of the most successful PL manager, Mourinho and Fergie, used much more of a counter attacking style then a passing style? Taking phase's post - their methods seemed more based on being compact and restricting space defensively but then attacking very quickly and directly stretching play to create space for the middle of the final third where the goals are scored. To some extent Rafa had a similar style also. The only manager who has consistently tried a possession type game based on passing mobility in the PL and been successful has been Wenger - I think Rodgers is trying to replicate the Wenger model and I am sure this is what FSG have in mind, but I would argue it is harder to implement this then it is a counter-attacking and more direct style which for me can have similar results.

Last season in La Liga was the perfect example of the Mourinho direct style led by Ronaldos vs the Guardiola possession style led by Messi.

Offline Eeyore

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Re: Systems - Space, Time and the Principles of Play
« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2013, 12:28:49 pm »
For me it's the difference between a philosophy and a system, the former is far more likely to give you longevity than the latter.
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Re: Systems - Space, Time and the Principles of Play
« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2013, 12:28:51 pm »
I seriously think we as fans are trying to over do all this tactics and systems stuff as we are so average. Maybe we're hoping it all comes together. A fact is if we had better players we would do better.

Football is a simple as when you have the ball you keep it and attack. When you don't have the ball you stay compact and when set try and win it back. All these complex posts that do contain so interesting theories are more to fuel the Internet mad football wanna be journos.

Systems, tactic, formations, style of play are all the same stuff, and trying to study them is pointless as its all theory.

Our great managers never used shit like it and many managers don't now. It's about quality of player, desire and mindset .
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Re: Systems - Space, Time and the Principles of Play
« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2013, 12:51:41 pm »
Not sure about this.  I think football is unusual. Goals drive games and they can come out of the blue and against the run of play. Football is one of the few games were the better team can lose with a fair degree of regularity.

Space and time give the impression of driving the game, a false sense of control that one long punt can evaporate in seconds. One of the joys is that it gives the underdog a chance. In that respect 'luck' is possibly a bigger component of football than most coaches and tacticians would like. However excellent the system everything cannot be controlled and if it could be we should all pack up and go home.

Space and time still drive the game - in order for that long ball to be played, the passer has to have space to play it. Pressure is the principle of denying space at the ball. In order for it to be successful, it either has to be played behind the defence into space or to a target player who has space to receive. Denying this space through consolidation and cover, respectively, reduces the option for the long ball.

Similarly, although the function of the game is to score and prevent goals, it is incredibly difficult to do so if the other team plays blocks of players in the space through which the ball must travel. If the player on the ball looking to shoot is then also pressured, then the space to shoot itself is denied. Alternatively, if a ball is played to a player at the back post with a defence that have shifted to far to the ball on the opposite side, then they are going to have ample time to slot the ball into the net.

For sure, luck is a huge factor in the game, but the luck is still tied to space and time, to a greater or lesser degree depending on the situation. Without space or time, a team will find it difficult to play. On the other hand, space and time are not generic quantities - they are different for each player, and this is the purpose of skill. Skill is not just the technique of something - it is the ability to perform that technique under conditions of less time and space with efficiency. Therefore, the space that Messi needs to play effectively in, for example, is a lot less than the space that Julian Dicks needed to play in. Skill warps space and time around the player with the ball, which is why good-to-great players will sometimes be double-marked when they receive the ball, while others on their team will be pressured in the normal fashion.
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Re: Systems - Space, Time and the Principles of Play
« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2013, 01:36:32 pm »
Just a clarification, it's Rafael who is Man United's right back and not Fabio. And Valencia is their right winger, not Anderson.

I've just started digesting the OP, I am loving it PoP.

Good spot. Changed. Cheers.
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Re: Systems - Space, Time and the Principles of Play
« Reply #19 on: January 11, 2013, 01:39:19 pm »
For me it's the difference between a philosophy and a system, the former is far more likely to give you longevity than the latter.

They are interlinked, though, but you're right. A Philosophy of play throught a club will have longer term benefits than a series of different systems, although a system is usually indelibly linked to a philosophy. Which is why, by design or by accident, Rodgers' alignment with the philosophy developed in the Academy by Rafa and then Borell, McParland and Segura will reap long-term benefits if we can see it through the present bumps.
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Re: Systems - Space, Time and the Principles of Play
« Reply #20 on: January 11, 2013, 01:46:31 pm »
Excellent OP.

After looking at the graphics you posted, it stands out like balls on a goldfish that Lucas' return was very important, and perhaps the only reason why our midfield has been dysfunctional without him, however, it could be said that he's our new Alonso, it looks very much like he's main job is pivot, with the CB's doing the job of 'Mascherano' ??
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Re: Systems - Space, Time and the Principles of Play
« Reply #21 on: January 11, 2013, 02:04:04 pm »
Space and time still drive the game - in order for that long ball to be played, the passer has to have space to play it. Pressure is the principle of denying space at the ball. In order for it to be successful, it either has to be played behind the defence into space or to a target player who has space to receive. Denying this space through consolidation and cover, respectively, reduces the option for the long ball.

Similarly, although the function of the game is to score and prevent goals, it is incredibly difficult to do so if the other team plays blocks of players in the space through which the ball must travel. If the player on the ball looking to shoot is then also pressured, then the space to shoot itself is denied. Alternatively, if a ball is played to a player at the back post with a defence that have shifted to far to the ball on the opposite side, then they are going to have ample time to slot the ball into the net.

For sure, luck is a huge factor in the game, but the luck is still tied to space and time, to a greater or lesser degree depending on the situation. Without space or time, a team will find it difficult to play. On the other hand, space and time are not generic quantities - they are different for each player, and this is the purpose of skill. Skill is not just the technique of something - it is the ability to perform that technique under conditions of less time and space with efficiency. Therefore, the space that Messi needs to play effectively in, for example, is a lot less than the space that Julian Dicks needed to play in. Skill warps space and time around the player with the ball, which is why good-to-great players will sometimes be double-marked when they receive the ball, while others on their team will be pressured in the normal fashion.

Genuine question. I am confused as to the differentiation of space and time. Aren't they one and the same thing? That is to say if you have space, you have time and vice versa.

Along similar lines I think football at a higher level is about trading small advantages building on them (in attack) and breaking them down (in defense) until those small advantages turn into a big enough one that a high percentage shot on goal is made. You might start with control of the ball in the backfield and trade that control for a quick ball into a more advance area. The advance support point is closed down but the advantage is traded for space somewhere else created by those closing down. Getting the ball to that space perhaps then creates enough time to get a ball in to a player behind the defence damaging their shape, the change in shape  creates more space somewhere else perhaps exploited through a quick combination of passes and that leads to a good shot on goal.

Football being so quick and dynamic means this can rarely be thought through so players learn pattern recognition to the point where it's instinctive. The good players are the ones that only require a small advantage to put the opposition to the sword, the great ones are the ones that seem to be able to make a small advantage into a huge one seeing the game 3-4 moves ahead of everyone else.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2013, 02:06:38 pm by DanA »
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Re: Systems - Space, Time and the Principles of Play
« Reply #22 on: January 11, 2013, 02:10:18 pm »
Genuine question. I am confused as to the differentiation of space and time. Aren't they one and the same thing? That is to say if you have space, you have time and vice versa.

Yep, more or less. But as I said to Vulmea, the space for one player is different to the space for another. Skill level dictates this, and Game Intelligence. This is where the "first few yards are in your head" maxim comes from. On the other hand, though, there can be smart footballers who can find space intelligently, but their need for multiple touches to get the ball under control can reduce their time.

Along similar lines I think football at a higher level is about trading small advantages building on them (in attack) and breaking them down (in defense) until those small advantages turn into a big enough one that a high percentage shot on goal is made. You might start with control of the ball in the backfield and trade that control for a quick ball into a more advance area. The advance support point is closed down but the advantage is traded for space somewhere else created by those closing down. Getting the ball to that space perhaps then creates enough time to get a ball in to a player behind the defence damaging their shape, the change in shape  creates more space somewhere else perhaps exploited through a quick combination of passes and that leads to a good shot on goal.

Brilliant.

Football being so quick and dynamic means this can rarely be thought through so players learn pattern recognition to the point where it's instinctive. The good players are the ones that only require a small advantage to put the opposition to the sword, the great ones are the ones that seem to be able to make a small advantage into a huge one seeing the game 3-4 moves ahead of everyone else.

Exactly
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Re: Systems - Space, Time and the Principles of Play
« Reply #23 on: January 11, 2013, 02:11:44 pm »
Excellent OP.

After looking at the graphics you posted, it stands out like balls on a goldfish that Lucas' return was very important, and perhaps the only reason why our midfield has been dysfunctional without him, however, it could be said that he's our new Alonso, it looks very much like he's main job is pivot, with the CB's doing the job of 'Mascherano' ??

I don't think that's an unfair assessment - especially when you look at how he looks for penetrating passes when he's in an advanced midfield position. Maybe Rafa saw a good combination of both Alonso's and Mascherano's best qualities in Lucas, and that's why he bought him?
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Re: Systems - Space, Time and the Principles of Play
« Reply #24 on: January 11, 2013, 02:31:39 pm »
for me ,the formations and tactics are second to the players having the ability or basic skills to execute those .
if youre front three dont finnish consistantly enough ,and arent clinical....its game over.
sometimes it takes that one extra player who can make the difference to a failing front three,and you will see the difference that one player in sturridge will make.
suarez in the early part of his career at liverpool was trying one twos with ste g and carroll but they werent coming off...he went solo
its only recently he seems to trust sterling and eventually sturridge i reckon with pulling off some of those pass and move one two attacks ...we will see
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Re: Systems - Space, Time and the Principles of Play
« Reply #25 on: January 11, 2013, 02:33:07 pm »
Space and time still drive the game - in order for that long ball to be played, the passer has to have space to play it. 

Yes and no. You could say everything in the world is down to space and time depending how granular you want to make it.

The idea I was trying to convey is you dont need time or space to influence the game other than what you need to breath of course. The biggest switch is often not accomplished by space or time but by the scoreline. So yes time and space can cover the how but unfortunately the how does not dictate the game.

Within a game - movement, possession etc all show an element of apparent control and whilst in roughly 80% of cases it should lead to a sensible outcome, the flow of teh game should be clear, in the remaining 20% of them it wont. Sure the odds of victory statistically increase when you 'control' a game but does that control 'drive' the individual game.

Leeds in the 70's were masters of simply letting the other side have the ball and then scoring. They were frequently 'outplayed' and still won. The ideas  1- 0 is  a dangerous lead, 2- O can be tricky, just before half time is a good time to score,  teams conceding just after they score, its easier to play when your 3-0 up, 4- 0 game over etc. All exist because the scoreline and scoring goals are generally percieved as the key element 'driving' any game.  A couple of seasons back I looked at the way united scored. In something like 60% of their games they scored more than 1 goal in a 5 minute spell. they clearly went for the jugular or the opposition fell apart once that first goal went in. When asked about a match your first answer is the scoreline not we've got 50% possession and space behind the right back........

So if we are to say space and time drive 'the game' it needs some further context, something about effectiveness perhaps or something more limiting like
'drive the play'.

Space and time may be principles of how to play but the scoreline drives the game not least because of the influence it has on both crowd and players.

A team could enjoy 95% possession, dominate the space and time within a game and lose. Barca came close against Celtic.

I'm rambling more than usual now so I'll stop. What was the point again..............:)


I seriously think we as fans are trying to over do all this tactics and systems stuff........ Our great managers never used shit like it and many managers don't now. It's about quality of player, desire and mindset .

I agree with the first part I think it does get too much weight not least because its intersting and tangible and something you can get your teeth into

Our great managers did though. Shanks and Bob were both superb and ahead of their time. They may have used more instinctive methods, they didn't have prozone or possession stats but they understood the game and how it worked. The bootroom may not have discussed Joe Allen's pass completion rate but I'm damn sure they'vehad said he doesn't give the ball away.

The mindset is important, so are tactics, to dismiss either is just daft.

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Re: Systems - Space, Time and the Principles of Play
« Reply #26 on: January 11, 2013, 02:45:08 pm »
i think the speed at which you excercise those phases of play when in possession make a big difference too....one and two touch footy that cloughs notts forest side used to play was hard to combat..similar to some of our stuff at the time...the faster its moved around the harder for the oppo to adjust too and it takes from their tank...mistakes ensue
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Re: Systems - Space, Time and the Principles of Play
« Reply #27 on: January 11, 2013, 02:48:20 pm »
Yes and no. You could say everything in the world is down to space and time depending how granular you want to make it.

The idea I was trying to convey is you dont need time or space to influence the game other than what you need to breath of course. The biggest switch is often not accomplished by space or time but by the scoreline. So yes time and space can cover the how but unfortunately the how does not dictate the game.

Within a game - movement, possession etc all show an element of apparent control and whilst in roughly 80% of cases it should lead to a sensible outcome, the flow of teh game should be clear, in the remaining 20% of them it wont. Sure the odds of victory statistically increase when you 'control' a game but does that control 'drive' the individual game.

Leeds in the 70's were masters of simply letting the other side have the ball and then scoring. They were frequently 'outplayed' and still won. The ideas  1- 0 is  a dangerous lead, 2- O can be tricky, just before half time is a good time to score,  teams conceding just after they score, its easier to play when your 3-0 up, 4- 0 game over etc. All exist because the scoreline and scoring goals are generally percieved as the key element 'driving' any game.  A couple of seasons back I looked at the way united scored. In something like 60% of their games they scored more than 1 goal in a 5 minute spell. they clearly went for the jugular or the opposition fell apart once that first goal went in. When asked about a match your first answer is the scoreline not we've got 50% possession and space behind the right back........

So if we are to say space and time drive 'the game' it needs some further context, something about effectiveness perhaps or something more limiting like
'drive the play'.

Space and time may be principles of how to play but the scoreline drives the game not least because of the influence it has on both crowd and players.

A team could enjoy 95% possession, dominate the space and time within a game and lose. Barca came close against Celtic.

I'm rambling more than usual now so I'll stop. What was the point again..............:)


I agree with the first part I think it does get too much weight not least because its intersting and tangible and something you can get your teeth into

Our great managers did though. Shanks and Bob were both superb and ahead of their time. They may have used more instinctive methods, they didn't have prozone or possession stats but they understood the game and how it worked. The bootroom may not have discussed Joe Allen's pass completion rate but I'm damn sure they'vehad said he doesn't give the ball away.

The mindset is important, so are tactics, to dismiss either is just daft.

It's not about Prozone, or possession stats, though. That's not the point of the OP. The point is to show that how a team shapes itself is dictated by the principles of play, which are concerned with the manipulation of space and time through player movement, skill, defensive pressure, coverage of the field, etc. It is the reason why virtually no teams play man-to-man marking anymore, and why zonal defending became the standard defensive system throughout the game. Sure the scoreline dictates the MOMENTUM of the game, but if you're 1-0 down with 5 minutes to go and the other team are packing their penalty area and playing long balls down the field when the ball comes to them, you're going to find it difficult to score (to reference the other side of the Celtic-Barca coin). On the other hand, if the other team plays with the defenders on the 18 yard line, the midfielders on the halfway line, and the forwards up the other end of the field, without any concern for compressing the lines, how many goals do you think they will concede? This is why teams fall back in front of their own goal when they lose the ball, and in numbers. They want to kill the vulnerable space that the team wants to attack in.

Certainly, there needs to be some context to the statement that "space and time drives the game", but the context isn't the scoreline. Regardless of what the objectives of either team are, if they are denied space to play in, they will be ineffective. If they are given space, or if they create it, they will be in a position to dictate their own outcome. If the other team allows them the ball and space to play, you can be sure that space will be in areas that won't hurt the defending team (30-50 yards out, in front of a defensive block, usually, and often wide, to the weak side of the attacking team where the ball is at greater risk of being lost by the attackers). If the scoreline was the prime mover of the playing of the game, then the only tactic would be long balls to the attacking third, because that is all that would be needed to get the ball into shooting positions; midfield wouldn't exist, and the only real formation worth using would be a genuine 4-2-4. So while scoreline adds context, it doesn't detract from the fact that the manipulation of time and space is the basic engine that creates tactics.
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Re: Systems - Space, Time and the Principles of Play
« Reply #28 on: January 11, 2013, 02:51:59 pm »
i think the speed at which you excercise those phases of play when in possession make a big difference too....one and two touch footy that cloughs notts forest side used to play was hard to combat..similar to some of our stuff at the time...the faster its moved around the harder for the oppo to adjust too and it takes from their tank...mistakes ensue

This is the time factor. Greater skill = less time needed to complete an action. Tactical organisation = less time searching for passing options.

On the other hand, if you know the other team are going to be playing 1 and 2 touch passing, then you don't chase - you sit back and let them pass in two thirds of the field, and only pressure them for the ball once they enter your defensive third, then hit them on the break - for example, Villa against us at Anfield this season.
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Offline Arcadian

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Re: Systems - Space, Time and the Principles of Play
« Reply #29 on: January 11, 2013, 03:01:20 pm »
Not sure about this.  I think football is unusual. Goals drive games and they can come out of the blue and against the run of play. Football is one of the few games were the better team can lose with a fair degree of regularity.

Space and time give the impression of driving the game, a false sense of control that one long punt can evaporate in seconds. One of the joys is that it gives the underdog a chance. In that respect 'luck' is possibly a bigger component of football than most coaches and tacticians would like. However excellent the system everything cannot be controlled and if it could be we should all pack up and go home.

This is yet another reason why possession of the ball is important is it not? Longer time in possession means less time for the opposition to exploit "luck"

Love these threads by the way.

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Re: Systems - Space, Time and the Principles of Play
« Reply #30 on: January 11, 2013, 03:10:39 pm »
This is yet another reason why possession of the ball is important is it not? Longer time in possession means less time for the opposition to exploit "luck"

Love these threads by the way.


Rafa teams tended to be quite happy to let the opposition have plenty of possession as long as it was in their own half. Whoever lost the ball when we had possession was expected to press and chase the ball whilst the others got back in formation.
Does greater stamina not play a part in this? One of the problems with Joe Cole was that he looked knackered just by being there. Shankly used to say " we train to play for 120 minutes".  Pressing is just one tactic that denies the other team the time/ space equation, but how long can modern footballers sustain this for?

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Re: Systems - Space, Time and the Principles of Play
« Reply #31 on: January 11, 2013, 03:18:25 pm »
Rafa teams tended to be quite happy to let the opposition have plenty of possession as long as it was in their own half. Whoever lost the ball when we had possession was expected to press and chase the ball whilst the others got back in formation.
Does greater stamina not play a part in this? One of the problems with Joe Cole was that he looked knackered just by being there. Shankly used to say " we train to play for 120 minutes".  Pressing is just one tactic that denies the other team the time/ space equation, but how long can modern footballers sustain this for?

Depends on a number of factors - are the pressing on their own or in groups? Do the rest of the team compress to the ball or drop back? Do they attack with genuine width and depth or do they maintain a tight shape in both phases? If they manage these aspects right, then fatigue is less of a factor
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Re: Systems - Space, Time and the Principles of Play
« Reply #32 on: January 11, 2013, 03:20:04 pm »
Superb OP PoP.

To expand upon the space and time separation thing it might be useful to think of someone like Iniesta who with VERY little space seems to have much time, or conversly, Charlie Adam who looked to have very little time and space no matter what was happening.  Different players all have strenghts and weaknesses in managing space and time, and the trade off would involve using another player to make up for the shortcomings of the former.  Advocating Downing in front of Wisdom, for example, might give Widom more time and space by Downing acting as the first form of defence.  Harnessing the whole 11 players to minimise the opposition's space and time in defence and springing the transition to attack by creating time and space is illustrated in the rapid counter attack.  With fast players and quick balls the lead attacker has less opponents to shoot.

Our play seems to be a combination of controlling the ball in a passive formation until some weakness appears, this could be either a rapid attack, or incisive passing, and trying to engineer a chance at goal. DanA, the advantges you gain in possession can be of varying size, Downing pulling one CB away to allow an incisive pass to Suarez is an example of several big advantages, watching Barcelona feint one way to pull defenders out of shape, creating space and time, allows incisive passing to be more able to be acted on.  In rugby union I have seen teams attack one flank to weaken the other, for quick lateral passing to take advantage of the space created by the feint.  So this in not just translatable to football.

Fantastic posting by PoP, Vulmea and DanA make this thread excellent.
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Re: Systems - Space, Time and the Principles of Play
« Reply #33 on: January 11, 2013, 03:28:18 pm »
To add some weight to the sapce/time argument as PoP was doing above with minimising the areas, and packing the defence meant the space to attack in was minimised.  A perfect example of this being done would be Champions League final where Chelsea parked the bus, and Bayern tried to thread their way around or through it.  If that is not a demonstration of a lesser skilled team resisting better opposition by denying space, then I don't know what is.
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Re: Systems - Space, Time and the Principles of Play
« Reply #34 on: January 11, 2013, 03:56:59 pm »
It's not about Prozone, or possession stats, though. That's not the point of the OP.

I thought that was what I said and we were in agreement on that point?
Certainly, there needs to be some context to the statement that "space and time drives the game", but the context isn't the scoreline.

Again I agree - which is why I didn't say it. We would need to define 'game' and 'play'. the correct use of time and space will make a team more effective but that may be an 'inferior' team camping on the 18 yard line to reduce opportunities for the opposition or it may be a team playing at  a high tempo and switch play left to right to unbalance the opposition - I dont think I'm disputing any of that. I was disputing that time and space drive the game. The team who uses time and space more effectivley should be more likely to win but as seen in the two quoted examples the style of play does not drive the game because the styles will likely changed based on what outcome is sought and what the scoreline is.

in your example what dicates that team A drop back and team B attack - is it time and space or the need for one team to defend a scoreline? what is 'driving' team A - their need to use space correctly or their need t obtain  a specific scoreline. I put it to you your honour that the former is merley a means to an end. What is driving the play is the scoreline.

- the use of time and space can drive how the game is played but the game itself isn't determined by them, there are no points for technical merit - the sole arbitration and determination of effectiveness is the scoreline however much of  travesty that can be in terms of 'play', the history books dont really care.


If the scoreline was the prime mover of the playing of the game, then the only tactic would be long balls to the attacking third, because that is all that would be needed to get the ball into shooting positions; midfield wouldn't exist, and the only real formation worth using would be a genuine 4-2-4. So while scoreline adds context, it doesn't detract from the fact that the manipulation of time and space is the basic engine that creates tactics.

Only if you believed long ball was the most effective tactic to create a goal. You are Harry Basset I claim my £5! :) (please god no)

This is yet another reason why possession of the ball is important is it not? Longer time in possession means less time for the opposition to exploit "luck"

Love these threads by the way.


I think thats the way Rafa, BR et al view it. The greater amount of control you have the more ability you have to influence the outcome. Hard to argue against it.

The issue I think comes in what 'control' means.

If you have the ball in your own half for 80% of the game but lose 1-0 and were one nil down from the 1st minute were you in control of the game?

If the opposition deliberately fall back to the 18 yard box and only press you when you enter the final third whilst playing three fast forwards ready to break are you in control?

The beauty of the game is the answer is probably no in both cases.

'Control' is transient, it only takes a second to score.......its the world cup final, there is 1 minute to go would you rather be 1-0 up or have the worlds best 11 in your team .........ah did I forget to mention you have a pen.........extra time beckons ..............but 5 of your players are carrying bad knocks............but so are 3 of teh opposition...........oh and they've just had a man sent off............you've missed the pen...............but scored the rebound...................it looks like its been disallowed for handball............. no it has to be retaken..................you've scored..............football eh........time and space..........space and time..............

 even more rambling than normal now must be Friday.......

oh and just for the record I agree Pop's OP is excellent.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2013, 04:02:18 pm by Vulmea »
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Re: Systems - Space, Time and the Principles of Play
« Reply #35 on: January 11, 2013, 04:18:02 pm »
you little beauties.

This is just where i'm struggling to string coherent coachable thoughts together. i've been putting off coaching the principals of play because it makes my head ache. I know i have got to formulate it into a conceptual programme incorporated into the FA four corners model, but have been putting it off as difficult. This is a massive help lads. Cheers.

The quality of insight on here is exceptional theses days. Educate the fanbase and we can really get behind our exceptional Head Coach.

Good stuff, it often makes me feel a bit of a dunce but i enjoy it.

Will give it a second reading and then come back to ask stupid questions if thats ok.

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Re: Systems - Space, Time and the Principles of Play
« Reply #36 on: January 11, 2013, 04:21:02 pm »
I thought that was what I said and we were in agreement on that point?

We could have been - I hadn't had my first cup of tea of the day yet :D Sorry if there was a misunderstanding!

Again I agree - which is why I didn't say it. We would need to define 'game' and 'play'. the correct use of time and space will make a team more effective but that may be an 'inferior' team camping on the 18 yard line to reduce opportunities for the opposition or it may be a team playing at  a high tempo and switch play left to right to unbalance the opposition - I dont think I'm disputing any of that. I was disputing that time and space drive the game. The team who uses time and space more effectivley should be more likely to win but as seen in the two quoted examples the style of play does not drive the game because the styles will likely changed based on what outcome is sought and what the scoreline is.

Although there is a relationship between time/space and style of play, I should make clear that I'm not talking specfically about one style over another style. Merely that when we talk about tactics and formations and movements etc., we need to be talking about them within the context of understanding that space and time influence where on the field the ball can be played most effectively, with the proviso that higher skilled players need less space and time than lower skilled players to act in. Also, the offside law influences the space on the field, because the effective playing space is condensed between the two offside lines (which is why if any of us remember 80's league football, on goalkicks the two teams were usually pressed into a 20-30 yard band in the middle of the field that bordered on the ridiculous at times)

in your example what dicates that team A drop back and team B attack - is it time and space or the need for one team to defend a scoreline? what is 'driving' team A - their need to use space correctly or their need t obtain  a specific scoreline. I put it to you your honour that the former is merley a means to an end. What is driving the play is the scoreline.

It is where they choose to allow the other team to have space. The converse of that is they could also press forward and deny the other team space on the ball in the midfield and force them to posses it back to their own goal, which also increases the chances of scoring if they win possession. So the momentum might be the scoreline, but the tactical decision is driven by what space they are willing to concede, and whether they want to attack close to goal or whether they want to lull the other team into opening space at the back for a counter-attack on transition.

- the use of time and space can drive how the game is played but the game itself isn't determined by them, there are no points for technical merit - the sole arbitration and determination of effectiveness is the scoreline however much of  travesty that can be in terms of 'play', the history books dont really care.


Only if you believed long ball was the most effective tactic to create a goal. You are Harry Basset I claim my £5! :) (please god no)

I nearly dropped my tea! :D

I think thats the way Rafa, BR et al view it. The greater amount of control you have the more ability you have to influence the outcome. Hard to argue against it.

The issue I think comes in what 'control' means.

If you have the ball in your own half for 80% of the game but lose 1-0 and were one nil down from the 1st minute were you in control of the game?

Yes, you were in control. But you didn't make good use of that control. You had the ball, the onus was for you to get forward. If you chose not too, that's bad decision making. But on the flip side, if the other team weren't tempted out of their shape to win the ball, then they made effective use of their defensive space by remaining compact and balanced, and probably only pressuring the ball when it entered certain areas. So they would have controlled the space, while you controlled the ball. But in controlling the ball, you had space, albeit in the middle and defensive thirds of the field. The question then becomes - did you use that space effectively? Did you probe their line of confrontation to draw key players out of position? Did you use space effectively, did you attempt to create space (space is not constant, which is why it is considered the prime mover of the tactical game)? Did you use the wide spaces that a consolidated team usually relinquishes? If they spread across the field, did you possess in the areas they couldn't cover (they can defend in any combination of numbers across the field, but space will be relinquished somewhere, whether they defend in a 5-5, a 4-4, a 5-3, or a 3-5)? So although the momentum might have been to score at least an equalizing goal with 89 minutes to play, did the attacking team make best use of the space available to them, and did they try to create space to shoot?

If the opposition deliberately fall back to the 18 yard box and only press you when you enter the final third whilst playing three fast forwards ready to break are you in control?

Yes, if you try to break their shape with movement, and create space through 1v1 actions, combination plays, and 3rd-attacker runs. No if you just possess the ball in your own half and don't seek to go forward - possession without a purpose.

The beauty of the game is the answer is probably no in both cases.

And also "yes" in both cases too :D

'Control' is transient, it only takes a second to score.......its the world cup final, there is 1 minute to go would you rather be 1-0 up or have the worlds best 11 in
your team .........ah did I forget to mention you have a pen.........extra time beckons ..............but 5 of your players are carrying bad knocks............but so are 3 of teh opposition...........oh and they've just had a man sent off............you've missed the pen...............but scored the rebound...................it looks like its been disallowed for handball............. no it has to be retaken..................you've scored..............football eh........time and space..........space and time..............

That's why it's the greatest game! So much to learn and you're never done learning. Cheers for the responses!

 even more rambling than normal now must be Friday.......

oh and just for the record I think Pop's OP is excellent.

I think your posts are excellent. There are a lot of great posters with a lot of good things to say. You're right up there, for me. We won't always agree, but i definitely read everything you have to say.
Better looking than Samie.

Offline exiledinyorkshire

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Re: Systems - Space, Time and the Principles of Play
« Reply #37 on: January 11, 2013, 04:38:06 pm »
Genuine question. I am confused as to the differentiation of space and time. Aren't they one and the same thing? That is to say if you have space, you have time and vice versa.

Along similar lines I think football at a higher level is about trading small advantages building on them (in attack) and breaking them down (in defense) until those small advantages turn into a big enough one that a high percentage shot on goal is made. You might start with control of the ball in the backfield and trade that control for a quick ball into a more advance area. The advance support point is closed down but the advantage is traded for space somewhere else created by those closing down. Getting the ball to that space perhaps then creates enough time to get a ball in to a player behind the defence damaging their shape, the change in shape  creates more space somewhere else perhaps exploited through a quick combination of passes and that leads to a good shot on goal.

Football being so quick and dynamic means this can rarely be thought through so players learn pattern recognition to the point where it's instinctive. The good players are the ones that only require a small advantage to put the opposition to the sword, the great ones are the ones that seem to be able to make a small advantage into a huge one seeing the game 3-4 moves ahead of everyone else.

good post that son.

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Re: Systems - Space, Time and the Principles of Play
« Reply #38 on: January 11, 2013, 04:43:41 pm »
PhaseofPlay: "it's about the ball"

Vulmea: "well, when you think about it, it's really about the air inside the ball, and the thread that holds the panels of the ball together..."

;D

Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Systems - Space, Time and the Principles of Play
« Reply #39 on: January 11, 2013, 04:44:44 pm »
PhaseofPlay: "it's about the ball"

Vulmea: "well, when you think about it, it's really about the air inside the ball, and the thread that holds the panels of the ball together..."

;D

:D
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