Author Topic: The Alternative Premier League Table 2018-19  (Read 239935 times)

Offline PoetryInMotion

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2018-19
« Reply #40 on: August 13, 2018, 02:14:04 pm »
APLT Analysis & Extrapolations : Matchday 1

Hi mate, thanks for the update. Have a question though. Why do both Southampton and Burnley have a -2? They both played each other and drew, didn't they? Likewise Wolves & Everton.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2018, 02:16:43 pm by PoetryInMotion »

Offline RooiBefok

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2018-19
« Reply #41 on: August 13, 2018, 02:28:03 pm »
Hi mate, thanks for the update. Have a question though. Why do both Southampton and Burnley have a -2? They both played each other and drew, didn't they? Likewise Wolves & Everton.
My pleasure.

Correct, a draw result for Southampton vs Burnley and likewise Wolves vs Everton.  All four teams earned one point for the draw and it was a Par 3 match for all four teams, hence each of them equate to an APLT of -2.
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Offline PoetryInMotion

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2018-19
« Reply #42 on: August 13, 2018, 02:35:22 pm »
My pleasure.

Correct, a draw result for Southampton vs Burnley and likewise Wolves vs Everton.  All four teams earned one point for the draw and it was a Par 3 match for all four teams, hence each of them equate to an APLT of -2.

Oh, it was par 3 for all. Got it, thanks mate.

Offline MerseysideBrum

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2018-19
« Reply #43 on: August 14, 2018, 12:06:41 pm »
Good to have this back!
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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2018-19
« Reply #44 on: August 14, 2018, 02:39:28 pm »
Not sure where else to put this, but here are 538's predictions, using their power index. I can't paste the table directly in here, unfortunately. It looks like they'll be updating after each round of games, so another interesting table to check on.


https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/soccer-predictions/premier-league/
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Offline Lofty Ambitions

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2018-19
« Reply #45 on: August 14, 2018, 03:29:32 pm »
Not sure where else to put this, but here are 538's predictions, using their power index. I can't paste the table directly in here, unfortunately. It looks like they'll be updating after each round of games, so another interesting table to check on.


https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/soccer-predictions/premier-league/

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2018-19
« Reply #46 on: August 14, 2018, 04:09:25 pm »
Not sure where else to put this, but here are 538's predictions, using their power index. I can't paste the table directly in here, unfortunately. It looks like they'll be updating after each round of games, so another interesting table to check on.


https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/soccer-predictions/premier-league/

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2018-19
« Reply #47 on: August 19, 2018, 05:57:33 pm »
The question is, who will drop off the chart first, Arsenal or United?
It looks to me as if we have signed another 'average' player. I'll hold back my complete opinion until I see the lad play

Offline sminp

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2018-19
« Reply #48 on: August 20, 2018, 10:04:44 pm »
We’re above the 90 point line  8)
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Offline Prof

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2018-19
« Reply #49 on: August 20, 2018, 10:05:05 pm »

Offline sms1986

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2018-19
« Reply #50 on: August 20, 2018, 10:12:00 pm »
Early on, but looking so very good so far!

Offline Nessy76

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2018-19
« Reply #51 on: August 21, 2018, 02:59:18 am »
We’re above the 90 point line  8)

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Offline RooiBefok

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2018-19
« Reply #52 on: August 21, 2018, 08:28:57 am »
APLT Full Table : Matchweek 2
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Offline RooiBefok

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2018-19
« Reply #53 on: August 21, 2018, 08:29:40 am »
APLT Analysis & Extrapolations : Matchweek 2
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Offline IlSerpente

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2018-19
« Reply #55 on: August 24, 2018, 07:11:42 pm »
What is seen as the most accurate formula for extrapolating final league position out of the three?

Offline drmick

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2018-19
« Reply #56 on: August 24, 2018, 11:26:13 pm »
What is seen as the most accurate formula for extrapolating final league position out of the three?

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Offline latortuga

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2018-19
« Reply #57 on: August 25, 2018, 07:54:31 am »
What is seen as the most accurate formula for extrapolating final league position out of the three?

None of them, they're all equally bad at predicting final positions 2 games in.

Money spent usually proves to be about the most accurate longstanding measure of all.

Offline Prof

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2018-19
« Reply #58 on: August 25, 2018, 08:34:55 am »
What is seen as the most accurate formula for extrapolating final league position out of the three?
I think this is the hardest thing to do in football.  As it is so low scoring (in comparison to most major sports) variance plays a bigger role.  All I've ever said the APLT does is indicate on a simple level how well teams have done based on matches played so far.  It isn't a crystal ball so won't predict the future, but does say (in my opinion) who is 'winning' so far at any point.

Offline Nessy76

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2018-19
« Reply #59 on: August 25, 2018, 04:53:50 pm »
What is seen as the most accurate formula for extrapolating final league position out of the three?

The most accurate guide is usually the previous season's final table.
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Offline farawayred

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2018-19
« Reply #60 on: August 25, 2018, 05:18:00 pm »
Money spent usually proves to be about the most accurate longstanding measure of all.
Clever exclusion of United there... ;D
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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2018-19
« Reply #61 on: August 25, 2018, 08:53:08 pm »
*taps foot impatiently awaiting the sekksi graffs*
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Offline AthleticClub

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2018-19
« Reply #62 on: August 25, 2018, 09:27:37 pm »
I think this is the hardest thing to do in football.  As it is so low scoring (in comparison to most major sports) variance plays a bigger role.  All I've ever said the APLT does is indicate on a simple level how well teams have done based on matches played so far.  It isn't a crystal ball so won't predict the future, but does say (in my opinion) who is 'winning' so far at any point.

It's a solid and robust model. Ultimately the better approach would be to calibrate the Pars (and recalculate all scores) after every game. I suspect you could probably calculate it on the basis of the home/away for of each team after every round of fixture. That's impractical and would introduce some fairly erratic results early in the season. There is the odd except year on year however the approach is pretty sound and indicative when looking for things like top 4/relegation. I think you've stated previously Prof, you don't consider it a highly predictive measure for individual placings given in the final weeks of the season all manor of intangibles come in to play.

It absolutely works, and I can't wait for week 8 of the season when we can discount that show of b*stards Mourinho has assembled from getting anywhere near the top 4 this year.

Offline Nessy76

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2018-19
« Reply #63 on: August 26, 2018, 04:53:26 pm »
It's a solid and robust model. Ultimately the better approach would be to calibrate the Pars (and recalculate all scores) after every game. I suspect you could probably calculate it on the basis of the home/away for of each team after every round of fixture. That's impractical and would introduce some fairly erratic results early in the season. There is the odd except year on year however the approach is pretty sound and indicative when looking for things like top 4/relegation. I think you've stated previously Prof, you don't consider it a highly predictive measure for individual placings given in the final weeks of the season all manor of intangibles come in to play.

It absolutely works, and I can't wait for week 8 of the season when we can discount that show of b*stards Mourinho has assembled from getting anywhere near the top 4 this year.

I think the full previous season's results will usually provide a more accurate model than what you suggest here. (eg, Watford are currently second.) It would be a pain to produce, and the results would be confusing and contradictory from week to week, with team's points totals yoyoing all over the place. You lose a lot of clarity, and eventually you end up more or less where you began. The par 3 teams tend not to change radically from one season to the next (though they fall in and out of the top half of the table several times over a season.)

Also, worth bearing in mind that the APLT is a model for winning the league, and it's usefulness for teams battling for top four, for example, will be significantly weaker.
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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2018-19
« Reply #64 on: August 26, 2018, 11:15:53 pm »
I always read these sections of the thread (the same discussion on 'accuracy' arrives each year) with some amusement. Prof is very clear on what the APLT sets out to do. It makes for a good discussion, with some very insightful posters, making it a must-read thread compared to most of those on the main board.

If it were possible to produce a 'predictive' table with any semblance of accuracy, the PL could just publish that and not bother with the actual games.
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Offline drmick

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2018-19
« Reply #65 on: August 27, 2018, 11:06:05 am »
Yeah, I'm not sure people keep thinking the APLT is even meant to be predictive.

It is retrospective model- simply a way of re-ranking the games already played.

It's biggest weakness is the inconsistency of the mid-table teams from season to season nowadays, and occasionally sudden changes of form during the season with new manager bounce.

Offline BigJimFinn

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2018-19
« Reply #66 on: August 27, 2018, 11:22:13 am »
Yeah, I'm not sure people keep thinking the APLT is even meant to be predictive.

It is retrospective model- simply a way of re-ranking the games already played.

It's biggest weakness is the inconsistency of the mid-table teams from season to season nowadays, and occasionally sudden changes of form during the season with new manager bounce.
Right, the only bothersome thing in the model is the huge and unfounded difference between par-1 aways at the middle 7 and par-3 aways at the bottom 7. The easy fix would be to treat all these as par-2s. More seesaw in the graph, when you could not hit par and stay level, but would give a more consistent picture of the performance. It feels right to say that any away win in the Premier League is a positive result and for title candidates, any draw against the rest is disappointing.
Still, this is Prof's toy and it brings a lot of joy as it is, so thanks for keeping up the effort every season!

Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2018-19
« Reply #67 on: August 27, 2018, 12:54:50 pm »
Prof might say different, but I always thought that there were only Par 3s and Par 1s because those are the only points you can get in a game (1 for a draw, 3 for a win). And that's why the model is based on a Par 1 and Par 3 scoring.
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Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2018-19
« Reply #68 on: August 27, 2018, 12:55:39 pm »
I always read these sections of the thread (the same discussion on 'accuracy' arrives each year) with some amusement. Prof is very clear on what the APLT sets out to do. It makes for a good discussion, with some very insightful posters, making it a must-read thread compared to most of those on the main board.

If it were possible to produce a 'predictive' table with any semblance of accuracy, the PL could just publish that and not bother with the actual games.

They do that with Everton anyway, don't they?
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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2018-19
« Reply #69 on: August 27, 2018, 12:57:22 pm »
Prof might say different, but I always thought that there were only Par 3s and Par 1s because those are the only points you can get in a game (1 for a draw, 3 for a win). And that's why the model is based on a Par 1 and Par 3 scoring.

Yes, I think you are right. Having a par score that is actually not possible would be weird.
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Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2018-19
« Reply #70 on: August 27, 2018, 12:58:19 pm »
What is seen as the most accurate formula for extrapolating final league position out of the three?

Goals scored (and per game) will usually give a good predictor of final position, but you need to be deep into the season to get any accuracy. In a "three points for a win" system, one goal is worth, on average, one league point. The highest scoring team rarely finishes out of the top two
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Offline PoetryInMotion

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2018-19
« Reply #71 on: August 27, 2018, 01:13:18 pm »
Yes, I think you are right. Having a par score that is actually not possible would be weird.

Yes, actually last season when there relegation graphs also in play in this thread, we were discussing about experimenting with the methodology (I think JCB was compiling the graphs for relegation methodology) and there were par 2 games discussed initially. But, I gave a suggestion to do away with some of those for the very reason that the actual scoring system doesn't allow those scores.

But par 0 makes sense for relegation graphs though as there are plenty of games where teams just outside relegation are not expected to get even a single point.

For a title winning APLT (Prof's model), par 1 and par 3 make the best sense.

Offline Prof

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2018-19
« Reply #72 on: August 27, 2018, 03:51:15 pm »
I've just caught up with the discussion above and yes I agree with you all, even where you disagree with each other  ;D

I've suggested the par 2s for the bottom 14 away from home as the lost likely way to to improve the model... But haven't committed to it for the reason that playing to par is a neat concept.

I might have a play when I have some time to look at previous seasons' final graphs with par 2s for these 14 fixtures.

Offline stevieheighway

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2018-19
« Reply #73 on: August 27, 2018, 10:00:59 pm »
Profs bringin sekksi graphs (yeah)
Some posters don't know how to act (yeah)
They try to diss Profs maths (yeah)
APLT is the inside track (yeah)
Profs bringin sekksi graphs (yeah)

**mic drop
I'm really looking forward to the future. People can say it's going to be grim if they want but i'm a Liverpool fan...and I don't fucking believe them.

Offline Prof

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2018-19
« Reply #74 on: August 27, 2018, 10:15:13 pm »



Offline Prof

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2018-19
« Reply #75 on: August 27, 2018, 10:15:52 pm »
Profs bringin sekksi graphs (yeah)
Some posters don't know how to act (yeah)
They try to diss Profs maths (yeah)
APLT is the inside track (yeah)
Profs bringin sekksi graphs (yeah)

**mic drop
:lmao :lmao :lmao

Offline stevieheighway

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2018-19
« Reply #76 on: August 27, 2018, 10:24:15 pm »
That grey line will be off the end before christmas ;D
I'm really looking forward to the future. People can say it's going to be grim if they want but i'm a Liverpool fan...and I don't fucking believe them.

Offline mickl

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2018-19
« Reply #77 on: August 27, 2018, 10:25:14 pm »
I see we're still top of the league (real table) - which is nice......
« Last Edit: August 27, 2018, 10:27:22 pm by mickl »

Offline farawayred

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2018-19
« Reply #78 on: August 27, 2018, 11:00:33 pm »
That grey line will be off the end before christmas ;D
Yeah, and like last year we would have to rescale to -3000 and I'd need a new pair of glasses to read the axis.
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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2018-19
« Reply #79 on: August 28, 2018, 01:52:10 am »
Not sure where else to put this, but here are 538's predictions, using their power index. I can't paste the table directly in here, unfortunately. It looks like they'll be updating after each round of games, so another interesting table to check on.


https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/soccer-predictions/premier-league/

How accurate is this? It has Man United at a <1% chance to win the league and a 1% chance to get relegated.  ;D