Author Topic: Islamism  (Read 196410 times)

Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1240 on: August 11, 2014, 09:14:59 pm »
 Hey Doc, i before e except after c. That's another 'law'. (Not as reliable as evolution, for sure, but it'll keep you honest when you spell 'receive').
"If you want the world to love you don't discuss Middle Eastern politics" Saul Bellow.

Offline Corkboy

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1241 on: August 11, 2014, 09:17:25 pm »
Hey Doc, i before e except after c. That's another 'law'. (Not as reliable as evolution, for sure, but it'll keep you honest when you spell 'receive').

I won't deign to comment.

Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1242 on: August 11, 2014, 09:18:14 pm »
I won't deign to comment.

That's sufficient to disprove that rule then.
"If you want the world to love you don't discuss Middle Eastern politics" Saul Bellow.

Offline Corkboy

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1243 on: August 11, 2014, 09:19:36 pm »
Yeah, well if we came from monkeys, how come there's still monkeys? Checkmate, atheists!

Offline Alan_X

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1244 on: August 11, 2014, 09:29:50 pm »
I'll be sure to tell my Finnish friends that work with these forms of abuse as their profession, that they shouldn't overly concern themselves with trying to provide therapy, or discussing solutions. Apparently, our RAWK researches have delved into the matter and determined that alcohol does not play the major part in household abuse in Finland, and in fact, what they've been labelling as household abuse in Finland is actually simply the reflection of the empowerment of women.

I probably shouldn't be using sarcasm on a subject that is a major issue in Finland (feel free to ask any Finn you cross paths , about their opinions on this issue), but if we're dismissing valid counter arguments by bending over backwards scrambling to interpret research as per our confirmation bias (or in Yorky's case, dismissing my point by claiming Finland is more akin to Russia than Sweden, in terms of politics (or culture or anything!), that's a priceless opinion Yorky, it really is) then we're no longer debating. At least, not within the guidlines of a healthy debate.

I can't comment on your anecdotal evidence and I'm not saying that domestic violence isn't an issue in Sweden, Denmark and Norway.

I was quoting the contents of the FRA report, which is what I assume you were referring to. Based on this headline:

http://www.thelocal.se/20140305/sweden-out-top-in-eu-domestic-violence-league

I went to the source of the headline.

http://fra.europa.eu/sites/default/files/fra-2014-vaw-survey-main-results_en.pdf

It's page 24 onwards.

If you actually read what I wrote - i didn't say that was definitely the reason but that was an explanation for the differences. Are you saying that the commentary on the report is wrong? What was your source?

It seems bizarre though that Swedish women have the highest levels of equality as defined by work, money, knowledge, time, power and health, yet they allow their husbands to beat them.

The 2010 UNICEF report on gender equality in the MENA region included this comment on gender based violence in the region: MENA is Middle East and North Africa and the highest ranked country on the Gender Gap Index is UAE at 103rd spot.

Quote
Protection from gender-based violence.

Gender-based violence both reflects and reinforces inequities between men and women and compromises the health, dignity, security and autonomy of its victims. It encompasses a wide range of human rights violations, including sexual abuse of girls and boys, rape, domestic violence, sexual assault and harassment, trafficking of women and girls and several harmful traditional practices.

Except for Tunisia, no country in MENA has a specific law against domestic violence. Some countries such as Libya, Djibouti and Qatar have a provision in the law that spouses should not cause physical or mental harm, but evidence of injury is usually required to prove assault.

Rape is considered a crime in all countries in the region, but in some cases a rapist might escape the punishment by marrying his victim, for example in Bahrain, Iraq, Jordan, Libya, Morocco, oPt, Syria and Tunisia.

In some countries, including Libya, Oman, Saudi Arabia and United Arab Emirates, victims of rape even risk being prosecuted for extramarital relations if they press charges. Tunisia is the only country in the region to have criminalized spousal rape.

“Honour killings” do occur in many countries in the region, although specific numbers are not known. Most countries have provisions in their legislation providing lenient sentences for a man who kills his wife or female relative who was caught in the act of adultery.

Gender-based violence and lack of security for women are particular challenges in countries and territories in the region facing humanitarian crises, such as Iraq, oPt, Sudan, and Yemen.

Any comments?
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1245 on: August 11, 2014, 09:31:33 pm »
It is constantly being tested because it hasn't been scientifically proven. If there was overwhelming scientific proof for the theory of evolution, the scientific community would have already have recieved a a clear hypothesis with the subsequent proof, and everyone else would have recieved clarification on that subject. At this current stage, they are theoretical explanations that have been difficult to prove (replicate) thus far. From a scientific perspective, it doesn't mean the case for evolution is fully rejected, but they can't confirm it either.

So yes, if they have managed to scientifically prove the case for Evolution (as per the rigid requirements within the scientific community) I'm surprised that I haven't recieved that memo. Feel free to share the research details with me as I would be greatly interested in looking over it.

Oh wow! I just snorted coffee out of my nose.

Fantastic stuff. How did I miss that!
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Offline Mutton Geoff

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1246 on: August 11, 2014, 10:09:04 pm »
I always work on a simple view of all religions, i regard them all as man made and therefore fallable they to me are just stories passed down through the centuries like old Folk Tales.

A world were Liars and Hypocrites are accepted and rewarded and honest people are derided!
Who voted in this lying corrupt bastard anyway

Offline Alan_X

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1247 on: August 11, 2014, 10:17:39 pm »
One more report: Women's Rights in the Middle East and North Africa (New York, Freedom House, 2010)

Quote
The country reports presented in this edition detail how women throughout the Middle East continue to face systematic discrimination in both laws and social customs. Deeply entrenched societal norms, combined with conservative interpretations of Shari‘a (Islamic law), continue to relegate women to a subordinate status. Women in the region are significantly underrepresented in senior positions in politics and the private sector, and in some countries they are completely absent from the judiciary. Perhaps most visibly, women face gender-based discrimination in personal-status laws, which regulate marriage, divorce, child guardianship, inheritance, and other aspects of family life. Laws in most of the region declare that the husband is the head of the family, give the husband power over his wife’s right to work, and in some instances specifically require the wife to obey her husband. Gender-based violence also remains a significant problem.

Quote
Protection from Domestic Abuse Remains Minimal

While no part of the world is free from the stain of domestic abuse, the countries of the Middle East are exceptional in their array of laws, practices, and customs that pose major obstacles to the protection of women and the punishment of abusers. Physical abuse is generally prohibited, but among the 18 countries examined, only Tunisia and Jordan offer specific protections against domestic violence, and none prohibit spousal rape. Other contributing factors include a lack of government accountability, a lack of official protection of individual rights inside the home, and social stigmas that pertain to female victims rather than the perpetrators.

Very few comprehensive studies on the nature and extent of domestic violence have been conducted in the Middle East. Nonetheless, domestic abuse is thought to be widespread in every country in the region, with its existence typically covered up by and kept within the family. Many women feel that they cannot discuss their personal situation without damaging their family honor and their own reputation. Consequently, abused women rarely attempt to file complaints with the police. When they do choose to seek police protection, they frequently encounter offi- cers who are reluctant to get involved in what is perceived as a family matter, and who encourage reconciliation rather than legal action. In Saudi Arabia in particular, guardianship laws make it very difficult for battered women to find a safe haven. For example, this study cites the case of a girl who sought police protection after being sexually molested by her father, only to be turned away and told to bring her father in to file the complaint.

10 WOMEN’S RIGHTS IN THE MIDDLE EAST AND NORTH AFRICA

Honor killing, in which a woman is murdered by a relative for suspected extramarital sex or some other behavior that is considered a slight to the family’s honor, represents the most extreme form of domestic violence. Such murders have been reported in Jordan, Syria, Palestine, Egypt, Iraq, Iran, and Yemen, but are not exclusive to the Middle East; they also occur in South and Central Asia, and to a lesser extent elsewhere. Generally, the perpetrators of honor killings serve minimal time in prison due to judicial discretion and laws that prescribe leniency for murders committed in the heat of passion. While Jordan and Syria have recently instituted stiffer penalties to deal with these crimes, honor killings are reportedly on the rise in other countries, such as Palestine and Iraq.

Over the last five years, nearly all countries in the region have taken some steps to combat spousal abuse. In Jordan, the parliament enacted the Family Protection Law in January 2008 after years of lobbying by govern- mental and civil society actors. As noted above, the law prescribes prison time and financial penalties for abusers, and specifies procedures that the police, the courts, and medical authorities must follow when handling cases of domestic violence, although several important provisions of the law have not yet been implemented. In Tunisia and Algeria, the authori- ties have joined women’s groups in campaigns against domestic violence, holding workshops and engaging police, judges, and social workers. Draft legislation that would prohibit domestic violence was considered by the Lebanese government in June 2009, but it was referred to a ministerial committee for further review.

In Bahrain, Lebanon, Morocco, and Jordan, the network of NGOs that support victims of domestic violence is steadily growing, and an increasing number of women seem to be aware of such organizations and the services they provide. Several new shelters have opened over the last five years, and civil society has become more active in its advocacy efforts. The issue of domestic violence has also garnered more attention in Qatar and Saudi Arabia, although it is unclear what practical steps those govern- ments intend to take to combat the problem. In Iran, Kuwait, and Yemen, there is not one shelter or support center for victims of domestic abuse.

I'm happy to accept that Sweden, Finland and other Nordic countries have above average rates of reported domestic abuse in Northern Europe. As far as I am aware though, they do have laws that recognise marital rape, that do not force some one who has been raped to marry their attacker. And I am not aware of many honour killings in Finland or lenient sentences for husbands and families who beat or murder women guilty of sexual indiscretions.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2014, 10:22:34 pm by Alan_X »
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Offline thegoodfella

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1248 on: August 11, 2014, 10:37:08 pm »
Yeah, well if we came from monkeys, how come there's still monkeys? Checkmate, atheists!

Talk about yourself mate, I come from the mighty apes.

Offline west_london_red

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1249 on: August 11, 2014, 11:11:33 pm »
One more report: Women's Rights in the Middle East and North Africa (New York, Freedom House, 2010)

I'm happy to accept that Sweden, Finland and other Nordic countries have above average rates of reported domestic abuse in Northern Europe. As far as I am aware though, they do have laws that recognise marital rape, that do not force some one who has been raped to marry their attacker. And I am not aware of many honour killings in Finland or lenient sentences for husbands and families who beat or murder women guilty of sexual indiscretions.

See Alan, I like you find all those things pretty abhorrent, and I would not want to live in a society that accepted such things as acceptable. Now, I also appreciate that there are some people in many parts of the world, both Muslim or otherwise, that view homosexuality in the same way we see those things that you have mentioned, they are not views I share but I understand that other do. If we are to sit on our moral high horse and condemn all those who think different then we do with no exception or attempt to understand then we are no better then those we condemn.
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Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1250 on: August 11, 2014, 11:14:21 pm »
See Alan, I like you find all those things pretty abhorrent, and I would not want to live in a society that accepted such things as acceptable. Now, I also appreciate that there are some people in many parts of the world, both Muslim or otherwise, that view homosexuality in the same way we see those things that you have mentioned, they are not views I share but I understand that other do. If we are to sit on our moral high horse and condemn all those who think different then we do with no exception or attempt to understand then we are no better then those we condemn.

No one's sitting on their moral high horse. People just want basic universal human rights to be upheld.
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1251 on: August 11, 2014, 11:23:34 pm »
See Alan, I like you find all those things pretty abhorrent, and I would not want to live in a society that accepted such things as acceptable. Now, I also appreciate that there are some people in many parts of the world, both Muslim or otherwise, that view homosexuality in the same way we see those things that you have mentioned, they are not views I share but I understand that other do. If we are to sit on our moral high horse and condemn all those who think different then we do with no exception or attempt to understand then we are no better then those we condemn.

Sorry, I sincerely hope that I don't understand what you are getting at. Do you mean there are people who think homosexuality is as bad as honor killing and rape? Being against laws that allow or promote domestic violence, spousal rape, honor killing and other such appalling acts isn't about 'thinking differently'. It's about people being terrified, beaten and killed.

Let me see if I've unpicked it correctly. I think that spousal rape and honor killing is wrong, but the people who think it's ok think that homosexuality is wrong... so those are equivalent and I shouldn't judge them?...

If that's right then all I can say is wow - your moral compass must be spinning like a top. How could you even write that without your head exploding at the sheer awfulness of it?

Homophobia doesn't excuse misogyny.
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Offline Twelfth Man

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Offline west_london_red

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1253 on: August 11, 2014, 11:27:03 pm »
No one's sitting on their moral high horse. People just want basic universal human rights to be upheld.

So do I, but to assume we are right in our view of the world and that the rest of the world (which by the way is also most of the world) who have different views are wrong is arrogant and causes resentment in the rest of the world and is one of the reasons we are where we are currently.
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Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1254 on: August 11, 2014, 11:32:42 pm »
So do I, but to assume we are right in our view of the world and that the rest of the world (which by the way is also most of the world) who have different views are wrong is arrogant and causes resentment in the rest of the world and is one of the reasons we are where we are currently.

But a universal human right is....universal. No religion can eliminate that right.

No nation has been forced to join the UN and sign the Declaration of Human Rights, but once they do the civilised world expects them to observe those rights. There's no "our values" and "their values" about it.
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Offline TepidT2O

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1255 on: August 11, 2014, 11:33:18 pm »
So do I, but to assume we are right in our view of the world and that the rest of the world (which by the way is also most of the world) who have different views are wrong is arrogant and causes resentment in the rest of the world and is one of the reasons we are where we are currently.
No it isn't. 

It is wrong to behead people, it's wrong to stone women to death for talking to a man.

Honestly
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Offline west_london_red

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1256 on: August 11, 2014, 11:38:33 pm »
Sorry, I sincerely hope that I don't understand what you are getting at. Do you mean there are people who think homosexuality is as bad as honor killing and rape? Being against laws that allow or promote domestic violence, spousal rape, honor killing and other such appalling acts isn't about 'thinking differently'. It's about people being terrified, beaten and killed.

Let me see if I've unpicked it correctly. I think that spousal rape and honor killing is wrong, but the people who think it's ok think that homosexuality is wrong... so those are equivalent and I shouldn't judge them?...

If that's right then all I can say is wow - your moral compass must be spinning like a top. How could you even write that without your head exploding at the sheer awfulness of it?

Homophobia doesn't excuse misogyny.

My moral compass is fine, as I don't sit there thinking my compass is better then anyone else's or that I have a right to judge others based on what I think is write or wrong. it's easy for us to feel superior over our acceptance of homosexuality and how we treat those that are 'different' but it wasn't that long ago that Western society looked down at these people if not just locked them up. We have come a long way in a short space of time, we shouldn't assume everyone wants to go where we are or will get there as quick as we did.
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Offline west_london_red

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1257 on: August 11, 2014, 11:40:31 pm »
But a universal human right is....universal. No religion can eliminate that right.

No nation has been forced to join the UN and sign the Declaration of Human Rights, but once they do the civilised world expects them to observe those rights. There's no "our values" and "their values" about it.

Have you read the UN declaration of rights? Read it and see how many countries actually come close to implementing it. Sadly it's not many.
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Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1258 on: August 11, 2014, 11:45:17 pm »
Have you read the UN declaration of rights? Read it and see how many countries actually come close to implementing it. Sadly it's not many.

I agree, but that's not the point I'm making. Regardless of how consistently they are implemented, those rights are universally - and freely - agreed to. Therefore the question of 'us' imposing 'our values' on 'them' does not arise. Therefore no one need feel 'superior' in insisting that human rights are observed.
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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1259 on: August 11, 2014, 11:55:46 pm »
No it isn't. 

It is wrong to behead people, it's wrong to stone women to death for talking to a man.

Honestly

And 500 years ago anyone who thought the Earth wasn't at the centre of the universe was burnt at the stake. Whose to say what will be acceptable in the future? The day will come when our views are deemed archaic and medieval so we shouldn't sit there passing judgement on others with quite the vigour we do these days
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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1260 on: August 12, 2014, 12:02:33 am »
And 500 years ago anyone who thought the Earth wasn't at the centre of the universe was burnt at the stake. Whose to say what will be acceptable in the future? The day will come when our views are deemed archaic and medieval so we shouldn't sit there passing judgement on others with quite the vigour we do these days

Yeah, we should, as loudly as possible. The difference is we don't execute those who still disagree with us.

Offline Alan_X

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1261 on: August 12, 2014, 12:02:45 am »
My moral compass is fine, as I don't sit there thinking my compass is better then anyone else's or that I have a right to judge others based on what I think is write or wrong. it's easy for us to feel superior over our acceptance of homosexuality and how we treat those that are 'different' but it wasn't that long ago that Western society looked down at these people if not just locked them up. We have come a long way in a short space of time, we shouldn't assume everyone wants to go where we are or will get there as quick as we did.

Thanks. I understand where you are coming from. Personally I do think my moral compass is better than someone who would murder their daughter or wife for a marital indiscretion, who would beat their wife for disobeying them or rape them for refusing sex, who would imprison, castrate, beat or even murder someone for being gay.

On my high horse? Maybe but I'd rather be up here than being knee-deep in that. The reason that we don;t prosecute people for being gay any more or allow men to beat their wives is because people campaigned against it. They believed that some things are worth fighting against if they believe they are wrong.
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Offline TepidT2O

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1262 on: August 12, 2014, 12:09:32 am »
And 500 years ago anyone who thought the Earth wasn't at the centre of the universe was burnt at the stake. Whose to say what will be acceptable in the future? The day will come when our views are deemed archaic and medieval so we shouldn't sit there passing judgement on others with quite the vigour we do these days
In someways I see your point.  It's why holding the European championships in the Ukraine was a good idea.... Open their minds to the rest of the world and see what equality looks like.

On the flip side, some things have always been wicked and wrong and people have been unable to speak out against them due to the state (theocracy, dictatorship or whatever) failing to sanction their freedom to say so.

So, people have always thought these acts were wrong but were just too scared or didn't have the means to say so.  Which sounds familiar in the current situation.
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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1263 on: August 12, 2014, 12:10:26 am »
Yeah, we should, as loudly as possible. The difference is we don't execute those who still disagree with us.

Who is we and who is they?

Offline Corkboy

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1264 on: August 12, 2014, 12:13:20 am »
Who is we and who is they?

We are the people who believe in universal human rights and democracy and not killing people because of what they think or who they love. They are the people who don't.

Offline Alan_X

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1265 on: August 12, 2014, 12:14:44 am »
Have you read the UN declaration of rights? Read it and see how many countries actually come close to implementing it. Sadly it's not many.

You are missing the point of it. It's a Declaration of what should be. It's an aspiration. A gold standard. The preamble ends with this:

Quote
Now, Therefore THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY proclaims THIS UNIVERSAL DECLARATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS as a common standard of achievement for all peoples and all nations, to the end that every individual and every organ of society, keeping this Declaration constantly in mind, shall strive by teaching and education to promote respect for these rights and freedoms and by progressive measures, national and international, to secure their universal and effective recognition and observance, both among the peoples of Member States themselves and among the peoples of territories under their jurisdiction.

People keep banging on about how the Talmud, the Bible and the Koran are guides for morality and how to live our lives. They aren't. They are rambling iron age or medieval myths and rules that take up thundreds of pages, are ambiguous and allow fuckwits like the IS, the Taliban and countless others through out history to carry out atrocities in the name of whatever religion they belong to.

The UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights has thirty articles and will slip into your pocket. Put the beautiful illuminated bibles and korans in the museums where they belong, burn the rest and adopt the UNUDHR as the guiding principle for human civilisation from here on.

The world would be a far, far better place.
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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1266 on: August 12, 2014, 12:24:19 am »
Thanks. I understand where you are coming from. Personally I do think my moral compass is better than someone who would murder their daughter or wife for a marital indiscretion, who would beat their wife for disobeying them or rape them for refusing sex, who would imprison, castrate, beat or even murder someone for being gay.

On my high horse? Maybe but I'd rather be up here than being knee-deep in that. The reason that we don;t prosecute people for being gay any more or allow men to beat their wives is because people campaigned against it. They believed that some things are worth fighting against if they believe they are wrong.

So who are the Saudi youth going to campaign to about the status of homosexuals in Saudi Arabia without getting arrested or worse? These things evolve over a very long period in time, and a key ingredient to it all is democracy. Now considering it took us 600 years to get from Magna Carta to our current electoral system, after which came all the good stuff about legalising homosexuality, race relations, rape of a spouse etc we cannot just insist that everyone do In an instant what took us so long to do. You can try it, like we did in Iraq but it usually doesn't work. A people will only move at the pace they want to, move them quicker or slow them down and you usually get a violent reaction.
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1267 on: August 12, 2014, 05:16:55 am »
So who are the Saudi youth going to campaign to about the status of homosexuals in Saudi Arabia without getting arrested or worse? These things evolve over a very long period in time, and a key ingredient to it all is democracy. Now considering it took us 600 years to get from Magna Carta to our current electoral system, after which came all the good stuff about legalising homosexuality, race relations, rape of a spouse etc we cannot just insist that everyone do In an instant what took us so long to do. You can try it, like we did in Iraq but it usually doesn't work. A people will only move at the pace they want to, move them quicker or slow them down and you usually get a violent reaction.

That's nonsense. It took hundreds of years to go from Magna Carta to our modern freedoms because at each stage it was the first time that was done. There is nothing that demands every country go through those stages of enlightenment at the same pace. Especially when some of the countries that are included in the proposed Islamist Caliphate have already been liberal democracies at some point in the past. Turkey was at the head of the Ottoman Empire.

Islamism is based on a 7th century book and founding your society on it only works if you recreate a 7th century society.

Understanding that homosexuality is not evil requires education and setting aside religious texts that condemn it.

Anyway. I'm done. I spent far too much time in here yesterday.
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09/03/2011 08:04
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Offline Corkboy

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1268 on: August 12, 2014, 10:40:24 am »
Nobel prize-winning author Wole Soyinka warns of religion's roll call of death

Nigerian says spiritual leaders who fail to confront extremists such as Boko Haram allow fanaticism to thrive

Atrocities carried out by fanatics such as Nigeria's Boko Haram show the dangers of religious belief with the "scroll of faith … indistinguishable from the roll call of death", according to the Nobel prize-winning author Wole Soyinka.

In a video address to the World Humanist Congress, at which he will be presented with its main award today, Soyinka will argue that even moderate religious leaders may be "vicariously liable" for sectarian hatred if they have failed to argue against it.

The actions of the Islamist extremists of Boko Haram – bombing churches, killing civilians and abducting girls – are a warning to the world, Soyinka said.

"The conflict between humanists and religionists has always been one between the torch of enlightenment and the chains of enslavement," said Soyinka. "Those chains are not merely visible, but cruelly palpable. All too often they lead directly to the gallows, beheadings, to death under a hail of stones. In parts of the world today, the scroll of faith is indistinguishable from the roll call of death."

He added that Boko Haram's members considered abducting 200 girls to be "virtuous" and moderate Muslims could not simply disavow their actions with "pious incantations" that "these are not the true followers of the faith". "We have to ask such leadership penitents: 'Were there times when you kept silent while such states of mind, overt or disguised, were seeding fanaticism around you? Are you vicariously liable?'" said Soyinka. "The lesson of Boko Haram is not for any one nation. It is not for the African continent alone. The whole world should wake up to the fact that the menace is borderless, aggressive and unconscionable."

He will be presented with the International Humanist Award at the secular body's annual conference, attended by more than 1,000 delegates from 67 countries.

Boko Haram has been waging a violent campaign since 2009, and has intensified its attacks against civilians this year. More than 4,000 people – mostly civilians – have been killed this year alone "by all sides" of the conflict, including in counter-attacks of security forces against the group, according to Amnesty International. This compares with an estimated 3,600 people killed in the first four years of the insurgency.

Elsewhere in the world, it is feared the Islamist militants of Isis (now Islamic State) may be about to carry out the genocide of Christians and tens of thousands of members of the Yazidi belief hiding on a mountain in northern Iraq. And in Burma, some 140,000 Muslims of the Rohingya ethnic group, one of the world's most persecuted religious minorities, are trapped and starving in camps after being chased from their homes by Buddhist mobs who killed up to 280 people.

Andrew Copson, chief executive of the British Humanist Association, said the award had been given to Soyinka in recognition of his "brave advocacy for free expression, even under extreme threats to his life".

The writer narrowly escaped a death sentence in Nigeria in 1994 when he was charged with treason by late Nigerian dictator Sani Abacha. Tipped off he was about to be arrested, Soyinka fled the country.

"Freedom of expression is a right. But it sometimes takes deep personal courage to stay true to its promises in the face of powerful religious 'sensitivities'," said Mr Copson. "We all have much to learn from Wole."

source


Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1269 on: August 12, 2014, 10:52:27 am »
Brilliant from Soyinka. That much overused word "brave" as well.
"If you want the world to love you don't discuss Middle Eastern politics" Saul Bellow.

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1270 on: August 12, 2014, 01:26:38 pm »

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1271 on: August 12, 2014, 01:31:58 pm »
Ha ha. Short and to the point.

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1272 on: August 12, 2014, 02:09:34 pm »
Ha ha. Short and to the point.

Many of them do of course.

Taking with them as many bystanders as possible.
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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1273 on: August 12, 2014, 03:14:26 pm »
Many of them do of course.

Taking with them as many bystanders as possible.
Oh, you don't have to remind me of that. I could have been one of those bystanders on a number of occasions. I took every suicide attack personally; sure, the terrorists weren't targeting me specifically, but they were quite happy if I became a statistic.

Luckily, the terrorists I was faced with were only of the mono-ethnic, Fascist variety, complete with a personality cult for their leader and a suicide fetish. They didn't have medieval religious texts to point to and state that their actions had divine sanction. So, it was easier, once the organisation had been defeated militarily and the leadership liquidated, to reach out to those that remained that there had to be and end to the killing and we all had find better ways to solve differences.

I doubt that's going to be as easy with IS or Boko Haram. That vice video turned my stomach watching a little boy, about the same age as my own, spout such closed-minded hate about infidels.

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1274 on: August 12, 2014, 03:40:52 pm »
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/JQezdSihI-o" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/JQezdSihI-o</a>
“With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.”
― Steven Weinberg

Offline Corkboy

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1275 on: August 12, 2014, 03:53:46 pm »
That's very good.

"The only problem with Islamic fundamentalism are the fundamentals of Islam".

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1276 on: August 12, 2014, 06:14:37 pm »
I think we need to be more precise regarding our terms here, especially the word "religion" (a word I've come to despise given the way it's used). Certainly the "religion" of say ISIS is quite different than the "religion" of an evangelical Christian from Kansas or a reformed Jew from Poland. Indeed the "secularism" of Stalin's Russia or Hitler's Germany was quite different than the "secularism" of Churchill's Britain.

 


Offline Alan_X

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1277 on: August 12, 2014, 07:01:05 pm »
I think we need to be more precise regarding our terms here, especially the word "religion" (a word I've come to despise given the way it's used). Certainly the "religion" of say ISIS is quite different than the "religion" of an evangelical Christian from Kansas or a reformed Jew from Poland. Indeed the "secularism" of Stalin's Russia or Hitler's Germany was quite different than the "secularism" of Churchill's Britain.

The religion of Isis is exactly the same as an evangelical Christian in Kansas or a reformed Jew on Poland. They'd are all a confused mixture of creation myth and rules for living in an Iron Age or medieval agrarian and pre-scientific society. As such they contain an irrational hodge-lodge of ideas that can be used to justify a peaceful, loving world view or bloody Crusade or Jihad.  That's why those texts are so dangerous. It would be far easier if the Koran only promoted bloody jihad. Because it is so wooly (like the Bible and the Talmud) moderate Muslims cannot wholeheartedly condemn the horrific acts carried out in the name if Allah or God. .

Secularism is not a thing. It's the absence of a thing - religion. The fascism of Hitler's Germany, the fascist communism of Stalin's Russia, or the radical genocidal year-one communism of Pol Pot are fundamentally different by definition from conservative or social democracy.
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Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1278 on: August 12, 2014, 07:17:34 pm »
The religion of Isis is exactly the same as an evangelical Christian in Kansas or a reformed Jew on Poland. They'd are all a confused mixture of creation myth and rules for living in an Iron Age or medieval agrarian and pre-scientific society. As such they contain an irrational hodge-lodge of ideas that can be used to justify a peaceful, loving world view or bloody Crusade or Jihad.  That's why those texts are so dangerous. It would be far easier if the Koran only promoted bloody jihad. Because it is so wooly (like the Bible and the Talmud) moderate Muslims cannot wholeheartedly condemn the horrific acts carried out in the name if Allah or God. .

I don't think it makes them "dangerous". It means that they can be infuriating to read as anything that is incoherent is infuriating to read. It obviously reduces their value as works of philosophy too. But the texts themselves only become dangerous if they are treated as "gospel" and, as gospel, fetishised to the point that they serve as blueprints for building the good society. I suppose the texts also become dangerous if people aren't allowed to historicise them or criticise them as well. 
"If you want the world to love you don't discuss Middle Eastern politics" Saul Bellow.

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Re: Islamism
« Reply #1279 on: August 12, 2014, 07:21:47 pm »
Anyway. I'm done. I spent far too much time in here yesterday.

I'm surprised you're done, to be honest.

In the midst of what seemed like a level headed debate (at least for 1-2 pages) on the role of religion within government, you waded in posting opinions as facts, throwing around accusations about Islam, and somewhere in there you even managed to flick in something about pigs and space flight and how that seems to conclusively proves there isn't a God. Now remember, we're not discussing the issue of "is Islam the answer to the purpose of life, or not", we're discussing the Islamism, which Yorky has kept trying to claim is not a front for attacking the religion, simply a debate on Islam as a form of Government (or as expressed via the likes of ISIS). And as a mod, you feel this helps further the debate we're having? That you've set an example on how to debate Islamism? We've already got another mod that's just posted a clip from a religious sceptic that's attempted to present his views on how Islam is not a religion of peace.

This thread is akin to opening a thread titled "multiculturism" or "Immigration" which ends up getting filled by racists that are there to "debate". Where you have posters that come in and start their debates with sentences such as "as you know, I think you should all go back to the jungles you came from, Europe for true Europeans, anyway, let's debate". And every other post is mostly a case of taking potshots at minorities, or providing links and articles that shed a negative light on minorities within Europe. What eventually happens is those posters that were really interested in a debate will realise early on the true nature of the thread and just avoid it. And all you'll be left with are a bunch of bigots posting link after link that misrepresents and slanders minorities , whilst under the guise of "debate".

I've already mentioned, when I first started posting on this thread, that all we're having are "loaded debates", and I was surprised that that kind of rhetoric would be acceptable within this site. I was led to believe that things were going on "behind the scenes", but now we've even got mods jumping in on the act. I mentioned in an earlier post, that I spend part of my free time lecturing, teaching, and debating about religion (and specifically Islam) within the community I currently reside in, and pretty much within all the countries I've been privileged to live in. With the exception of this thread, I never debate online. I've found that people are far more likely to offer a basic level of respect when debating in person as opposed to debating against keyboard warriors.

I'm only here because RAWK is the site I turn towards whenever I've got some free time and I'm on the internet, and what to enjoy some great readings on the subject of Liverpool. My posts numbers are relatively low precisely because I come here to read, and thankfully, there are some fantastic posters on this site that help contribute to some great content. If you excluse the posts I've made on this thread, most of my posts are simply showing appreciation towards a poster that contributed a research/opinion/stance/article that I enjoyed. I stumbled onto this thread just recently, and after browsing through the previous content, I felt that if I added my voice (offering another perspective) it might help lend itself towards starting a debate, instead of what it seems to have become; a thread where posters can post any and all negative information about Islam whilst making the occasional pot shots against Religions in general.

But now I can see why some of the earlier posters have since stopped posting on this thread. It's not a healthy debate. There's already enough negativity and manipulation of facts in the real world, I don't have the time (or interest) to start spending time deflecting rhetoric on online football site.  Obviously, all the mods disagree with my opinions concerning this thread, nonetheless, it's my opinion and I stand by it. As long as the "debate" follows the current lines, I won't be wasting my time adding to it.

I'd give a farewell shoutout to my fellow posters on this thread, but let's not kid ourselves, I won't be missed. :wave
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