Author Topic: Liverpool's Midfield  (Read 1801823 times)

Offline Eeyore

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #18600 on: September 4, 2022, 08:10:14 pm »
This is work that should already have been done as a contingency, we simply cannot rely on having a personnel dependent system, when those personnel are unreliable.

I'm not the one writing any "tactical innovations" off, the opposition are doing that for us.

Not having certain personnel available shouldn't mean we then have to revert to an unworkable structure, we should have ideas in place for this circumstance, it's hardly unforseeable.

The possibility has existed to play the current eights more conservatively, we simply haven't seen it, Milner/Henderson would be well suited to a more conservative role, but have still "pushed" when played, Klopp may not have sought to push both eights, but he certainly hasn't prevented it.

3-2-2-3 would be far more convincing than 3-0-4-3, if anything our current approach is the re-invention of the wheel.

Inverted full backs are not a tactical fad and do not require a great level of competence on their opposite foot, there have been examples of the likes of Delph playing that role, but it is no means a requirement. They aren't inverted wingers, and they receive and play in tradition midfield positions, it's a bonus but not a necessity.

The problem currently does exist, and is exposed the moment certain personnel are unavailable, we didn't win either of the Champions League or Premier League last season. Lets not pretend conceding chances via transitions wasn't a considerable problem for us last season, in spite of our "almost won the quadruple" success..

At the moment the system we're playing isn't working, having the proper personnel would disguise that issue, having a squad confident and capable in playing an inverted full back style would eliminate that issue for good.

You can't train players to react to two totally different sets of triggers though. Klopp's system relies on players being conditioned to act instinctively, especially during transitions. It would be akin to going totally man to man one week and totally zonal the next.

All systems are personnel dependent as evidenced by our terrible results when we had no centre backs. Klopp wants his team to play the game on the edge to garner a numerical advantage during broken play.

Then we get to conceding chances on the transitions. Well we didn't do that in our title season. So for me the problem is more to do with the reduction in the mobility of the likes of Hendo than any tactical issues.

Your solution to teams getting in behind our fullbacks seems to be the radical innovation of playing Trent and Robbo much deeper. That is despite that duo being probably the most prolific assist makers in the League.

The funny bit though is complaining about us conceding chances. Which you pin on the lack of inverted full backs.

Maybe Ped should plagiarise Klopp. I mean our full backs create goals for fun but our defensive record is exactly the same as City's. This season both teams have conceded 6 goals and last season both teams conceded 26 goals. That is why the suggestion that we need to diminish the assist output of our full backs is completely misguided.

The issue isn't the inversion or otherwise of the full backs but the lack of energy and athleticism in midfield.
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Offline Knight

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #18601 on: September 4, 2022, 09:02:19 pm »
Hello again all, would like to apologize again for some of my comments, I don't believe my points were invalid, but they could no doubt have been better presented.

In truth I've been unwell for some time, hence the long gap in my post history, I'm only just finding the strength to bring my "voice" to bear again on the world, it isn't quite coming out right yet.

Anyway, I thought I'd expand a little more on why I like the IFB concept, and why I'd like to see us adopt it.

In my opinion it would offer stronger protection on defensive transition, open up opportunities for our 8's wingers to be more effective, and permit us to have more extended periods in the oppositions half.

It would likely redress many of the issues we've had regarding teams cleaving through our centre at will, as the numbers would be more balanced, and could prevent us turning to a market solution when we have suitable players for this system "at home".



What our system looks like currently without the conservative presence of Thiago at LCM:



I think this structure is born out empirically in some pass maps that I've seen floating around the internet, and frankly looks very ugly on the page.

I still think it's a tad strange that we haven't even tried an alternative, given how successfully I've seen it implemented elsewhere, but I'm sure there must be a sensible explanation.

Good of you and big of you to apologise. And great post. Thanks for persevering with posting.

Offline Knight

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #18602 on: September 4, 2022, 09:57:58 pm »
You can't train players to react to two totally different sets of triggers though. Klopp's system relies on players being conditioned to act instinctively, especially during transitions. It would be akin to going totally man to man one week and totally zonal the next.

All systems are personnel dependent as evidenced by our terrible results when we had no centre backs. Klopp wants his team to play the game on the edge to garner a numerical advantage during broken play.

Then we get to conceding chances on the transitions. Well we didn't do that in our title season. So for me the problem is more to do with the reduction in the mobility of the likes of Hendo than any tactical issues.

Your solution to teams getting in behind our fullbacks seems to be the radical innovation of playing Trent and Robbo much deeper. That is despite that duo being probably the most prolific assist makers in the League.

The funny bit though is complaining about us conceding chances. Which you pin on the lack of inverted full backs.

Maybe Ped should plagiarise Klopp. I mean our full backs create goals for fun but our defensive record is exactly the same as City's. This season both teams have conceded 6 goals and last season both teams conceded 26 goals. That is why the suggestion that we need to diminish the assist output of our full backs is completely misguided.

The issue isn't the inversion or otherwise of the full backs but the lack of energy and athleticism in midfield.

Re your system failing without personnel. Having no senior CB fit is not the same thing as your entire way of playing going down the drain if one injury prone 30 year old midfielder gets injured. You’re basically saying that without Thiago we’re screwed because we’re forced into playing more offensive 8s and we allow/instruct them to play further up the pitch but without the necessary tactical switch to make it actually work.

Re not conceding on the transition in our title winning season. But this is the point, we’re doing something different. So no we didn’t concede on the transition but then Trent wasn’t going everywhere, Salah wasn’t staying wide right, our RCM wasn’t totally vacating the midfield.

Re our fullbacks offering creativity. How are our fullbacks doing in 2022 on the creative front?

Our lack of athleticism in midfield is definitely an issue, isn’t it possible we have multiple issues right now?

Offline Eeyore

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #18603 on: September 4, 2022, 10:15:56 pm »
Re your system failing without personnel. Having no senior CB fit is not the same thing as your entire way of playing going down the drain if one injury prone 30 year old midfielder gets injured. You’re basically saying that without Thiago we’re screwed because we’re forced into playing more offensive 8s and we allow/instruct them to play further up the pitch but without the necessary tactical switch to make it actually work.

Re not conceding on the transition in our title winning season. But this is the point, we’re doing something different. So no we didn’t concede on the transition but then Trent wasn’t going everywhere, Salah wasn’t staying wide right, our RCM wasn’t totally vacating the midfield.

Re our fullbacks offering creativity. How are our fullbacks doing in 2022 on the creative front?

Our lack of athleticism in midfield is definitely an issue, isn’t it possible we have multiple issues right now?

We were forced to play with two attacking teenage 8's because we were missing Thiago, Henderson, Jones, Ox and Keita. That is completely comparable with not having fit senior centre backs. What people seem to be missing is that it isn't the position of the 8's that is killing us but how stretched we have become.

That is what happens when you are continually chopping and changing and not having the benefit of continuity of selection. Players don't back each other up as much as they usually do. As Klopp would say we lack rhythm.

Klopp has made it clear what should be happening on our right hand side. Trent, Elliott/Hendo and Salah should be rotating positions. For that to happen we need a consistency in selection in midfield and in attack.

This season we have conceded 6 goals which is the same as City and one more than Brighton and Spurs who have the joint best defensive record in the League.
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Offline Knight

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #18604 on: September 4, 2022, 10:18:43 pm »
The position of the 8s, whether they be the kids or anyone else, is killing us BECAUSE their positions makes us stretched.

And because they’re slow etc. I’m with you on the athleticism point. Been banging that drum ad nausaeum all summer in the transfer thread.

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #18605 on: September 6, 2022, 04:43:20 am »
That is the problem, though. It is all based on the supposition that Klopp wants to transition to a more controlled way of playing. DefJack had somehow made the leap and decided that Klopp was trying to plagiarize Guardiola's methods.

The irony is that for me, both teams are looking at becoming less controlled. Both teams are moving away from having a false nine and towards traditional strikers. You don't sign Haaland or Núñez if you are looking to improve the amount of control you have in games. You sign them because you want the option of playing more directly. Playing directly is a lower percentage play that lessens the amount of control you have in exchange for preventing the opposition from getting defensively set.

That is the problem with DefJack's theory it is just that a theory based on a huge assumption. Once he has set off down that rabbit hole there is no hope for him. He then makes the leap to a scenario in which we should copy the way City deploy their full backs. The problem with that is the way he ignores the way both teams react to counter-attacks.

Generally, City give their left back more freedom, whilst Walker tucks in to protect the centre backs on the transition. DefJack wants us to copy that tactic.

The issue with that is twofold. Firstly Trent's attacking numbers are in a completely different stratosphere to Walker's. Secondly, we already have a coping mechanism to protect us against the counter-attack. We also go to three at the back with Fabinho dropping in between the centre backs.

DefJack's seems to think it is just a matter of the full backs tucking in. It isn't. It would completely alter our defensive shape. Even worse, it would completely alter our defensive triggers. Triggers that we work on day in day out in training until they become second nature. That is the reason why new signings generally take weeks learning our triggers in training before they start.

Fabinho is a perfect example of that.

DefJack no wants us to basically throwaway all the work that has gone on for years on the training pitch and fundamentally change the way we play until we get our key midfield players back from injury. That is what grinds, DefJack wants us to make fundamental changes to our system for a few weeks and then flip back to how we play.

The irony is that I know a coach who regularly makes huge systemic changes. The result of that is City getting dumped out of the Champions League year in year out with predictably disjointed performances.

For me in the Premier League Guardiola gets away with things because of the resources at his disposal. How many times do they get carved up in games, go a couple of goals behind and then turn things around by bringing World class attackers on against tiring defences. The ridiculous thing is that DefJack has much more faith in Guardiola's system than the man himself. Guardiola knows his system doesn't quite cut it at the highest level for me. That is why he makes those huge systemic changes in the latter stages of the Champions League.

Personally I think both Guardiola and Klopp are on a tactical journey at the moment. The huge difference is that Guardiola has the benefit of a functioning midfield. Judge Klopp when he gets his midfield players back and when he is backed in the transfer market.

Guardiola for me fails to win the Champions League because their squad is way too thin to compete on 4 fronts (or even two). Until that changes and his philosophy on a larger squad changes or their owners sanction a higher level of net spending (which they haven’t in recent years) they will not win both the CL and the Barclays PL. Their only chance is an off year in the PL and they wrap it up early will they have a good chance to win the CL.
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Offline Egyptian36

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #18606 on: September 6, 2022, 06:06:36 am »
Guardiola for me fails to win the Champions League because their squad is way too thin to compete on 4 fronts (or even two). Until that changes and his philosophy on a larger squad changes or their owners sanction a higher level of net spending (which they haven’t in recent years) they will not win both the CL and the Barclays PL. Their only chance is an off year in the PL and they wrap it up early will they have a good chance to win the CL.

What philosophy ? his philosophy is buying technical players as much as he can even if it meant kicking out a player he bought the year before for big money.

he failed because of his team selection like against Chelsea in the final and the stupid changes he makes during games. Him overthinking under pressure stopped City from winning the CL. Also his style not that good against class managers and doesn't work if the team not full of technical players, no wonder he is still at City who can afford this kind of players every year. Overrated manager who got lucky because of Barca golden generation and got lucky again because City hired him after Bayern refused to give him the crazy money he needs to cover his limitations as a manager.

I don't know how can a Liverpool fan rate Pep after seeing what world class managers achieved with us or other teams with a limited budget.

Offline T.Mills

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #18607 on: September 6, 2022, 07:17:28 am »
What philosophy ? his philosophy is buying technical players as much as he can even if it meant kicking out a player he bought the year before for big money.

he failed because of his team selection like against Chelsea in the final and the stupid changes he makes during games. Him overthinking under pressure stopped City from winning the CL. Also his style not that good against class managers and doesn't work if the team not full of technical players, no wonder he is still at City who can afford this kind of players every year. Overrated manager who got lucky because of Barca golden generation and got lucky again because City hired him after Bayern refused to give him the crazy money he needs to cover his limitations as a manager.

I don't know how can a Liverpool fan rate Pep after seeing what world class managers achieved with us or other teams with a limited budget.

Behave, he's the 2nd best Coach in the world and to suggest otherwise is purely based on hatred for the team he's managing. Using City or Bayerns failure to win the CL to downplay his achievements is bizarre and a argument that could easily go up in smoke if they win it this year (not aimed at you btw).

Ask yourself this. If Pep wasn’t at City would we be sitting here with more league titles?

Offline Mister Flip Flop

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #18608 on: September 6, 2022, 07:39:58 am »
Behave, he's the 2nd best Coach in the world and to suggest otherwise is purely based on hatred for the team he's managing. Using City or Bayerns failure to win the CL to downplay his achievements is bizarre and a argument that could easily go up in smoke if they win it this year (not aimed at you btw).

Ask yourself this. If Pep wasn’t at City would we be sitting here with more league titles?

Nonsense he is. He's never proven himself without a massive budget like Klopp has continuously.
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Offline Egyptian36

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #18609 on: September 6, 2022, 08:39:05 am »
Behave, he's the 2nd best Coach in the world and to suggest otherwise is purely based on hatred for the team he's managing. Using City or Bayerns failure to win the CL to downplay his achievements is bizarre and a argument that could easily go up in smoke if they win it this year (not aimed at you btw).

Ask yourself this. If Pep wasn’t at City would we be sitting here with more league titles?

Sorry but 2nd best coach in the world my ass. If he built a successful team with a normal budget and had the same restrictions as other managers then I won't say he is overrated but me and you we know he cant. We all have seen managers who were not allowed to get the players they want and had to work with average players and had to adapt their tactics and beat all odds against stronger richer teams , I have more respect for them than Pep and definitely won't consider Pep better than them. Not all achievements are the same.

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #18610 on: September 6, 2022, 09:07:02 am »
Weird debate. There's quite clearly two coaches far away from the rest and Guardiola is one of them. He's not as good as Klopp because he hasn't done it without having the best team and lots of money but still.....who is better than him besides Jurgen?
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Offline Knight

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #18611 on: September 6, 2022, 09:07:25 am »
Deriding Guardiola just ends up deriding Klopp and Liverpool. If any old coach could have done what City have done over the past few years it’s not as impressive to have kept up with them. But if Guardiola is one of the best football coaches in the world, with almost unlimited resources at his disposal (although I do think he’s been more limited than we might assume, the squad is oddly small even fit Guardiola), then keeping up with them becomes the miracle is actually is.

*Edit* just to avoid being accused of being a City fan I should say that those unlimited resources have meant cheating for City by swerving financial fair play rules.
« Last Edit: September 6, 2022, 09:09:36 am by Knight »

Offline Knight

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #18612 on: September 6, 2022, 09:07:57 am »
Weird debate. There's quite clearly two coaches far away from the rest and Guardiola is one of them. He's not as good as Klopp because he hasn't done it without having the best team and lots of money but still.....who is better than him besides Jurgen?

Exactly.

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #18613 on: September 6, 2022, 09:27:09 am »
Weird debate. There's quite clearly two coaches far away from the rest and Guardiola is one of them. He's not as good as Klopp because he hasn't done it without having the best team and lots of money but still.....who is better than him besides Jurgen?
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Offline keyop

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #18614 on: September 6, 2022, 09:33:36 am »
Some of this thread is cringeworthy - a few indifferent results and people start name calling like kids in a playground.

One of the best things about this site is that so many people of all ages and backgrounds from all over the world can put their ideas and opinions across - no need to spoil it by getting personal, calling people armchair fans, superfans, or getting into 'I go to more games than you' pissing contests. Some people on here have likely never been to a live game in their life (and might never do so), and would give their right arm to live locally or have a season ticket or even be able to get to the game once a season - it doesn't make their opinions less valid or their ideas less relevant.

Criticism of the owners, players or Jurgen should always be in context, based on facts and evidence, and certainly not driven by hindsight. The context of the here and now is a depleted and tired squad (mentally and physically) who've just played more games in a season than any team in football history, with players in midfield that haven't worked out. Some of these players have become a burden (not necessarily their fault) to Jurgen and what he can do - both financially and tactically. Some have even suggested he's been too loyal to some of them and could've been more ruthless. We haven't been able to manage Hendo or Fabinho's minutes in recent years because of those issues, and have had to use Milner in games we probably wouldn't have if circumstances were different. That's football. Our hit rate on transfers has been incredible, and if the one area we haven't always hit the jackpot in terms of ability/durability is midfield, then so be it. We've done pretty well against the oil cheats regardless.

As others have pointed out, our keeper, defence and attack situation is in great shape in terms of quality, numbers, and durability. Alisson and Kelleher means we're set for years. Trent, Virgil, Matip, Gomez, Konate, Robbo, and Tsimikas plus emergency backup is as good a defensive group as we could ask for. Mo, Bobby, Jota, Diaz and Nunez are probably the best attacking group in the league, with one of those still in the early stages of his time with us before Jurgen undoubtedly turns him into a monster player. Next summer will see Ox/Keita likely leave, Milner possibly retire, and us bring in 1 if not 2 quality replacements that no doubt Jurgen will turn into elite players as he does so often. We'll then go again, regardless of what happens this season.

Complaining about a transfer window or the state of our midfield needs to allow for the fact that we've had to change our priorities due to our main midfield target going elsewhere and other key players leaving (or needing a new contract to keep them). Choosing selective transfer windows like 2019 to make an argument does a disservice to the amazing work the club did to bring in Mo, Sadio, Virgil, Matip, Robbo, Gini, Fabinho, and Alisson in the 3 windows before that. Saying we should've replaced Gini is an easy criticism, but overlooks the fact that there are two players bought in for a combined £85m taking up valuable squad and wage capacity who could've been good replacements if they hadn't been crocked so regularly. Saying we haven't invested in the core team since our CL/League title also does a disservice to the likes of Jota, Thiago, Tsmikas, Konate, Diaz, and Nunez.

Even with our depleted midfield and our 'past it squad' (as some have suggested), we almost won all four trophies last season, and if it wasn't for City's cheating we'd have won 2 more leagues at least. I can't imagine the moaning about performances or injuries would be quite so bad if we weren't up against the Lance Armstrong of football. I think some people need to make peace with the fact that Jurgen joined at a time when the biggest cheats and sportswashers in history were building up a head of steam. We could easily afford a few poor transfers, a slow start, and some injuries under normal circumstances, and our points totals in 3 of the last 4 seasons would piss the league normally.

The best way to support a team is to the play the 'infinite game' - keep on supporting, keep on enjoying, and don't get too bogged down in individual results, individual performances in one game, or a bad spell for the team. Football is for life, not just for christmas, and we had 30 years prior to 2015/16 that were at times far worse than anything we've seen since.
« Last Edit: September 6, 2022, 09:41:26 am by keyop »
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Offline Clint Eastwood

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #18615 on: September 6, 2022, 09:45:06 am »
Starting to become a bit more optimistic about Arthur (maybe out of desperation). I'm not bothered if he's conservative/negative with his passing, we need some stability in the middle, players who can hold on to the ball and someone to support Fabinho. The emergence of Elliott has helped our midfield be more direct and involved in attack, but more vulnerable in transition. If Arthur can help us recycle the ball and offer some protection when we lose it, I'm happy. Initially I wasn't convinced he'd play many games but I didn't quite realise how intense the schedule was over the next couple of months.

You'd think Thiago will go straight back in to the side, hopefully it gives us the chance to bed Arthur in and give him some minutes off the bench.

I'd like to see us structure our midfield like this;

Fabinho/Henderson - Thiago/Arthur
                            Elliott
« Last Edit: September 6, 2022, 09:47:57 am by Clint Eastwood »

Offline redtel

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #18616 on: September 6, 2022, 10:00:21 am »
Guardiola for me fails to win the Champions League because their squad is way too thin to compete on 4 fronts (or even two). Until that changes and his philosophy on a larger squad changes or their owners sanction a higher level of net spending (which they haven’t in recent years) they will not win both the CL and the Barclays PL. Their only chance is an off year in the PL and they wrap it up early will they have a good chance to win the CL.

So Man City need to sanction a higher level of net spending to succeed?

They have the highest net spend of any club in the history of the game if I’m not mistaken.

Your having a laugh. Good one!
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Offline Redric1970

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #18617 on: September 6, 2022, 10:47:00 am »
Some of this thread is cringeworthy - a few indifferent results and people start name calling like kids in a playground.

One of the best things about this site is that so many people of all ages and backgrounds from all over the world can put their ideas and opinions across - no need to spoil it by getting personal, calling people armchair fans, superfans, or getting into 'I go to more games than you' pissing contests. Some people on here have likely never been to a live game in their life (and might never do so), and would give their right arm to live locally or have a season ticket or even be able to get to the game once a season - it doesn't make their opinions less valid or their ideas less relevant.

Criticism of the owners, players or Jurgen should always be in context, based on facts and evidence, and certainly not driven by hindsight. The context of the here and now is a depleted and tired squad (mentally and physically) who've just played more games in a season than any team in football history, with players in midfield that haven't worked out. Some of these players have become a burden (not necessarily their fault) to Jurgen and what he can do - both financially and tactically. Some have even suggested he's been too loyal to some of them and could've been more ruthless. We haven't been able to manage Hendo or Fabinho's minutes in recent years because of those issues, and have had to use Milner in games we probably wouldn't have if circumstances were different. That's football. Our hit rate on transfers has been incredible, and if the one area we haven't always hit the jackpot in terms of ability/durability is midfield, then so be it. We've done pretty well against the oil cheats regardless.

As others have pointed out, our keeper, defence and attack situation is in great shape in terms of quality, numbers, and durability. Alisson and Kelleher means we're set for years. Trent, Virgil, Matip, Gomez, Konate, Robbo, and Tsimikas plus emergency backup is as good a defensive group as we could ask for. Mo, Bobby, Jota, Diaz and Nunez are probably the best attacking group in the league, with one of those still in the early stages of his time with us before Jurgen undoubtedly turns him into a monster player. Next summer will see Ox/Keita likely leave, Milner possibly retire, and us bring in 1 if not 2 quality replacements that no doubt Jurgen will turn into elite players as he does so often. We'll then go again, regardless of what happens this season.

Complaining about a transfer window or the state of our midfield needs to allow for the fact that we've had to change our priorities due to our main midfield target going elsewhere and other key players leaving (or needing a new contract to keep them). Choosing selective transfer windows like 2019 to make an argument does a disservice to the amazing work the club did to bring in Mo, Sadio, Virgil, Matip, Robbo, Gini, Fabinho, and Alisson in the 3 windows before that. Saying we should've replaced Gini is an easy criticism, but overlooks the fact that there are two players bought in for a combined £85m taking up valuable squad and wage capacity who could've been good replacements if they hadn't been crocked so regularly. Saying we haven't invested in the core team since our CL/League title also does a disservice to the likes of Jota, Thiago, Tsmikas, Konate, Diaz, and Nunez.

Even with our depleted midfield and our 'past it squad' (as some have suggested), we almost won all four trophies last season, and if it wasn't for City's cheating we'd have won 2 more leagues at least. I can't imagine the moaning about performances or injuries would be quite so bad if we weren't up against the Lance Armstrong of football. I think some people need to make peace with the fact that Jurgen joined at a time when the biggest cheats and sportswashers in history were building up a head of steam. We could easily afford a few poor transfers, a slow start, and some injuries under normal circumstances, and our points totals in 3 of the last 4 seasons would piss the league normally.

The best way to support a team is to the play the 'infinite game' - keep on supporting, keep on enjoying, and don't get too bogged down in individual results, individual performances in one game, or a bad spell for the team. Football is for life, not just for christmas, and we had 30 years prior to 2015/16 that were at times far worse than anything we've seen since.

I agree with some of what you say not all but that’s what opinions are, the midfield is ageing though and you can’t look back at what we nearly did last season football doesn’t work like that sentiment doesn’t win trophy’s unfortunately.

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #18618 on: September 6, 2022, 10:55:24 am »
I agree with some of what you say not all but that’s what opinions are, the midfield is ageing though and you can’t look back at what we nearly did last season football doesn’t work like that sentiment doesn’t win trophy’s unfortunately.

Why not? :D Its exactly what we can do, particularly considering we're only six games into a new one.
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #18619 on: September 6, 2022, 10:59:28 am »
have long since been convinced that Guardiola wouldn't be the manager he is without the perma-presence of Klopp and LFC forcing him to maintain the ridiculously high level City have been made to maintain for the past few seasons...and its exactly the same the other way around - having to match and surpass the juggernaut that is City under Guardiola has pushed us to heights that perhaps we wouldn't have achieved under 'normal' circumstances...the rivalry between the two has defined this Premiership era...without each other, neither would be as relentless
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Offline Redric1970

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #18620 on: September 6, 2022, 11:02:17 am »
Why not? :D Its exactly what we can do, particularly considering we're only six games into a new one.

Obviously opinions again that’s yours i think different doesn’t mean I’m right hey ho.

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #18621 on: September 6, 2022, 11:07:15 am »
Disagreeing with how we have got to this point with our midfield is not crying it having an opinion, I don’t agree with yours

Unfortunately there are a few posters on here who don’t like opinions different to there own

I just except that I will never be a super fan like those boys, I just strive to live in there gracious shadow and the fact some of them are actually calling for bans because they don’t agree with their opinions is just plain crazy the world really is going to shit. (I await their abuse and criticism for criticising lol)

It isn’t just that it’s the abuse that comes if they don’t agree it’s bloody toxic it a forum for fucks sake, if you don’t agree fair enough but debate it don’t abuse it, it’s fucking stupid even in these mad times we are living people are allowed to have an opinion on a forum full of opinions.

everyone has different opinions and I don’t agree with most of them but if I don’t agree I don’t dig them out it’s not worth it I’m just a grumpy old firefighter.

I agree with some of what you say not all but that’s what opinions are

Obviously opinions again that’s yours i think different doesn’t mean I’m right hey ho.

Have you ever seen The Big Lebowski? :D There's a scene you'd enjoy.
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

Offline Redric1970

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #18622 on: September 6, 2022, 11:15:13 am »
Have you ever seen The Big Lebowski? :D There's a scene you'd enjoy.

I was going to mention you as one of the trolls, and your proving it now unbelievable, I feel like I have my own personal stalker I’m honoured honesty that you search through all of my posts, I’m not giving you my phone number though I’m married lol
« Last Edit: September 6, 2022, 11:17:48 am by Redric1970 »

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #18623 on: September 6, 2022, 11:19:24 am »
I was going to mention you as one of the trolls, and your proving it now unbelievable

Dont get upset RedRic it was just a joke :)

Honestly though, forums would be pretty dull if everyone just posted their opinion and no-one countered or argued or debated it because 'its just their opinion', no? You said we can't look back at last season. Of course we can. The midfield is the same, we have added another two players to it and we should be getting a lot more minutes from Harvey. So its a lot more logical to look at that than the very small amount of this season we've played (with injuries and odd fitness issues).
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #18624 on: September 6, 2022, 11:21:26 am »
Weird debate. There's quite clearly two coaches far away from the rest and Guardiola is one of them.

Exactly.  You could even say that both Klopp and Guardiiola have changed the way the vast majority of people look at football.  Klopp with his heavy metal pressing and Guardiola with his controlled possession and playing out of the back.  No other managers in the game today have had the impact on world football as these two have had. 

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #18625 on: September 6, 2022, 11:24:59 am »
Dont get upset RedRic it was just a joke :)

Honestly though, forums would be pretty dull if everyone just posted their opinion and no-one countered or argued or debated it because 'its just their opinion', no? You said we can't look back at last season. Of course we can. The midfield is the same, we have added another two players to it and we should be getting a lot more minutes from Harvey. So its a lot more logical to look at that than the very small amount of this season we've played (with injuries and odd fitness issues).

I don’t get upset buddy I’m just a miserable old fart, your absolutely right it is all about opinions and counter opinions but a lot of what was put wasn’t opinions it was pure name calling and abuse, i work on
A fire station and have done for 22 years so know all about banter and a lot of that wasn’t banter. Now back to the midfield issue, our midfield has always under klopp been about pressing and work, unfortunately some of our midfielders have injury issues and age has caught up with some.

Offline xbugawugax

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #18626 on: September 6, 2022, 11:25:56 am »
Starting to become a bit more optimistic about Arthur (maybe out of desperation). I'm not bothered if he's conservative/negative with his passing, we need some stability in the middle, players who can hold on to the ball and someone to support Fabinho. The emergence of Elliott has helped our midfield be more direct and involved in attack, but more vulnerable in transition. If Arthur can help us recycle the ball and offer some protection when we lose it, I'm happy. Initially I wasn't convinced he'd play many games but I didn't quite realise how intense the schedule was over the next couple of months.

You'd think Thiago will go straight back in to the side, hopefully it gives us the chance to bed Arthur in and give him some minutes off the bench.

I'd like to see us structure our midfield like this;

Fabinho/Henderson - Thiago/Arthur
                            Elliott

think this will be the way forward. arthur will be taking over keita's role in managing thiago's minutes. Maybe we will see a fab, curtis, elliot/fabio midfield if klopp feels that we need that additional attacking threat.

keita being out of CL squad probably means he could feature in the league if fit as well if he isn't sakho'ed out. ;D

what a pretty shite start of the season. I thought we could be the well run machine after beating city in the charity shield. the media/twatter/social media/pundits fuelling the shit show doesnt help.

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #18627 on: September 6, 2022, 12:09:58 pm »
Guardiola for me fails to win the Champions League because their squad is way too thin to compete on 4 fronts (or even two). Until that changes and his philosophy on a larger squad changes or their owners sanction a higher level of net spending (which they haven’t in recent years) they will not win both the CL and the Barclays PL. Their only chance is an off year in the PL and they wrap it up early will they have a good chance to win the CL.

2018 they bottled it at Anfield (they already had the league won at that point). 2019 they blew it against Spurs. 2020 lost to Lyon after the season was finished. 2021 lost to Chelsea in the final after fucking up the team selection and had the league wrapped up long before. 2022 blew it at the end to Madrid but should have had the tie wrapped up long before but kept letting Real off the hook.

They were much superior to all those teams. Sometimes you can have a 3-5 year great cycle but someone else is as strong (which has happened to us domestically). That hasn't happened to City in Europe, they've lost to teams they should have beat each year.
Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to tide us over this season

Offline ljycb

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #18628 on: September 6, 2022, 02:50:05 pm »
2018 they bottled it at Anfield (they already had the league won at that point). 2019 they blew it against Spurs. 2020 lost to Lyon after the season was finished. 2021 lost to Chelsea in the final after fucking up the team selection and had the league wrapped up long before. 2022 blew it at the end to Madrid but should have had the tie wrapped up long before but kept letting Real off the hook.

They were much superior to all those teams. Sometimes you can have a 3-5 year great cycle but someone else is as strong (which has happened to us domestically). That hasn't happened to City in Europe, they've lost to teams they should have beat each year.

They have definitely underperformed in Europe, but I would disagree with a couple of your individual assessments of each year.

Looking at the most recent failure, with about five minutes of normal time remaining of the second leg at the Bernabéu, I can remember thinking that it would surely go down as one of Manchester City’s greatest performances in Europe. Real Madrid hadn’t threatened much at all in the second half, and the first half hadn’t been all that productive for them either. City had kept them at arm’s length, then made a change in bringing off a tired De Bruyne for Gündogan who made an immediate impact. They miss the chance to kill off the game through Grealish, and I will admit that I did say to myself at that precise moment “Please make them pay for that”, but it was more in jest than anything else. What happened in stoppage time was just incredible. City could have handled it better but I think it’s easier said than done.

On the subject of handling it better being easier said than done, I would also disagree with your assessment of them “bottling it” in 2018 at Anfield. Guardiola himself has said on a couple of occasions now that there is no other stadium in the world like ours. That atmosphere combined with a group of players who were going at their maximum would have done serious damage to anyone. I can remember there was some criticism of them going with Laporte at left-back, but I don’t think it would have made that much of a difference who they’d played. It was our first European Cup quarter-final in nearly a decade, so the only major criticism that I could really put to them is that they may have underestimated just how good we could be? Even then, I think that’s a stretch given how worried Guardiola was about us earlier on that season (as documented on Amazon Prime).

But as for the other three seasons you mention (and even the two I’m pushing back on), it’s fair to say that there has been an underperformance in Europe. I don’t think it’s as easy as some like to make out (we know ourselves from May just gone that coming up against a strong defensive opponent in the final who get their noses in front can quickly become a bit of a nightmare), but for the money spent, it probably should be considered a massive failure if Guardiola finishes up there without winning the Champions League.

Offline JackWard33

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #18629 on: September 6, 2022, 03:49:03 pm »
They have definitely underperformed in Europe, but I would disagree with a couple of your individual assessments of each year.

Looking at the most recent failure, with about five minutes of normal time remaining of the second leg at the Bernabéu, I can remember thinking that it would surely go down as one of Manchester City’s greatest performances in Europe. Real Madrid hadn’t threatened much at all in the second half, and the first half hadn’t been all that productive for them either. City had kept them at arm’s length, then made a change in bringing off a tired De Bruyne for Gündogan who made an immediate impact. They miss the chance to kill off the game through Grealish, and I will admit that I did say to myself at that precise moment “Please make them pay for that”, but it was more in jest than anything else. What happened in stoppage time was just incredible. City could have handled it better but I think it’s easier said than done.

On the subject of handling it better being easier said than done, I would also disagree with your assessment of them “bottling it” in 2018 at Anfield. Guardiola himself has said on a couple of occasions now that there is no other stadium in the world like ours. That atmosphere combined with a group of players who were going at their maximum would have done serious damage to anyone. I can remember there was some criticism of them going with Laporte at left-back, but I don’t think it would have made that much of a difference who they’d played. It was our first European Cup quarter-final in nearly a decade, so the only major criticism that I could really put to them is that they may have underestimated just how good we could be? Even then, I think that’s a stretch given how worried Guardiola was about us earlier on that season (as documented on Amazon Prime).

But as for the other three seasons you mention (and even the two I’m pushing back on), it’s fair to say that there has been an underperformance in Europe. I don’t think it’s as easy as some like to make out (we know ourselves from May just gone that coming up against a strong defensive opponent in the final who get their noses in front can quickly become a bit of a nightmare), but for the money spent, it probably should be considered a massive failure if Guardiola finishes up there without winning the Champions League.

As a total thread derailing aside not enough has been said about how insanely lucky Madrid were to win the CL last season - its all just hand waved as 'eEroyalty' blah blah
They significantly the worse team in pretty much every knockout game they played (maybe they had parity at Stamford bridge but were basically murdered in the return). They were hugely worse vs City especially at the Etihad when 5-1 wouldn't have been unfair.
And then the final was a total farce.. apart from the pre half time scramble they had one chance that they scored from which came from a scuffed shot that turned into a pin point cross - we then proceeded to miss a million chances while their keeper turned into Elastigirl
If you ran that tournament another 50 times I'm not sure they'd win it again

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #18630 on: September 6, 2022, 03:57:34 pm »
They have definitely underperformed in Europe, but I would disagree with a couple of your individual assessments of each year.

Looking at the most recent failure, with about five minutes of normal time remaining of the second leg at the Bernabéu, I can remember thinking that it would surely go down as one of Manchester City’s greatest performances in Europe. Real Madrid hadn’t threatened much at all in the second half, and the first half hadn’t been all that productive for them either. City had kept them at arm’s length, then made a change in bringing off a tired De Bruyne for Gündogan who made an immediate impact. They miss the chance to kill off the game through Grealish, and I will admit that I did say to myself at that precise moment “Please make them pay for that”, but it was more in jest than anything else. What happened in stoppage time was just incredible. City could have handled it better but I think it’s easier said than done.

On the subject of handling it better being easier said than done, I would also disagree with your assessment of them “bottling it” in 2018 at Anfield. Guardiola himself has said on a couple of occasions now that there is no other stadium in the world like ours. That atmosphere combined with a group of players who were going at their maximum would have done serious damage to anyone. I can remember there was some criticism of them going with Laporte at left-back, but I don’t think it would have made that much of a difference who they’d played. It was our first European Cup quarter-final in nearly a decade, so the only major criticism that I could really put to them is that they may have underestimated just how good we could be? Even then, I think that’s a stretch given how worried Guardiola was about us earlier on that season (as documented on Amazon Prime).

But as for the other three seasons you mention (and even the two I’m pushing back on), it’s fair to say that there has been an underperformance in Europe. I don’t think it’s as easy as some like to make out (we know ourselves from May just gone that coming up against a strong defensive opponent in the final who get their noses in front can quickly become a bit of a nightmare), but for the money spent, it probably should be considered a massive failure if Guardiola finishes up there without winning the Champions League.

City should have had the tie done and dusted in the first leg anyway, regardless of dominating the second leg as well. Weren't they 2-0 up early on and all over Real? 3-1 up and getting in behind them at will. They should never have come out of that game with a 4-3.

In regards to 2018 City were 30 points better than us that season but completely wilted at Anfield. Yeah you can credit our crowd for that but like I said they still bottled it. It was only a couple of months earlier we'd scored 3 quick goals against them at Anfield so they should have been ready for that, although in the league game they recovered and nearly came back. It was the lack of so much as an away goal that put the tie beyond them. Obviously Barca bottled it here as well but we were a better side than Barca.
« Last Edit: September 6, 2022, 04:01:54 pm by Fromola »
Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to tide us over this season

Offline newterp

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #18631 on: September 6, 2022, 04:10:38 pm »
Is there a chance we buy a midfielder in January?

The CL group stage usually creates some fallout with teams willing to sell if they don't qualify.

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #18632 on: September 6, 2022, 04:13:17 pm »
Is there a chance we buy a midfielder in January?

The CL group stage usually creates some fallout with teams willing to sell if they don't qualify.

We would be in the absolutely ludicrous position of having 10 senior midfielders and that doesnt include Bajetic and Carvalho. Thats mental. City have 5.

We really need to move players on first.

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #18633 on: September 6, 2022, 04:19:03 pm »
We would be in the absolutely ludicrous position of having 10 senior midfielders and that doesnt include Bajetic and Carvalho. Thats mental. City have 5.

We really need to move players on first.


Keita/Ox aren't going to play much / at all it seems
Milner can then be eased out
Carvalho isn't really a midfielder
Henderson, Thiago, Arthur, Fabinho are all injury prone
Jones is a mystery

and the only players we are moving are Keita/OX/Milner

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #18634 on: September 6, 2022, 04:23:59 pm »
Probably depends how Arthur performs. If he manages to stay fit and perform at a good level I'm sure we'll feel we can get to the summer, unless something crops up ala Diaz.

And Man City haven't got 5 senior midfielders :D
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #18635 on: September 6, 2022, 04:28:27 pm »
Gatusso said it best when coach of Napoli.  ;D

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #18636 on: September 6, 2022, 04:31:09 pm »
Who's Napoli's coach now anyway
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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #18637 on: September 6, 2022, 04:40:33 pm »

Keita/Ox aren't going to play much / at all it seems
Milner can then be eased out

Carvalho isn't really a midfielder
Henderson, Thiago, Arthur, Fabinho are all injury prone
Jones is a mystery

and the only players we are moving are Keita/OX/Milner

But these players won't be at the World Cup and will presumably be fit by then, therefore will be back involved. Unless Keita has kicked his last ball for the club, Ox is just written off, or we have another bunch of injuries, it'll be hard to facilitate another signing in January.
Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to tide us over this season

Offline ljycb

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #18638 on: September 6, 2022, 04:46:13 pm »
City should have had the tie done and dusted in the first leg anyway, regardless of dominating the second leg as well. Weren't they 2-0 up early on and all over Real? 3-1 up and getting in behind them at will. They should never have come out of that game with a 4-3.

In regards to 2018 City were 30 points better than us that season but completely wilted at Anfield. Yeah you can credit our crowd for that but like I said they still bottled it. It was only a couple of months earlier we'd scored 3 quick goals against them at Anfield so they should have been ready for that, although in the league game they recovered and nearly came back. It was the lack of so much as an away goal that put the tie beyond them. Obviously Barca bottled it here as well but we were a better side than Barca.

Yeah, the first leg was poor game management from City in fairness. They had done very well in the second leg to take the sting out of the tie, but given how much better they were in the first leg, to not be out of sight by the time the second leg kicked off was not great. You’ve changed my mind!

Offline Redric1970

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #18639 on: September 6, 2022, 04:55:48 pm »

Keita/Ox aren't going to play much / at all it seems
Milner can then be eased out
Carvalho isn't really a midfielder
Henderson, Thiago, Arthur, Fabinho are all injury prone
Jones is a mystery

and the only players we are moving are Keita/OX/Milner

Your post is spot on our midfield is a bit of a mess buddy, linked with a £60mil (probably crap sources) jan move for barella apparently he would be my dream signing, if only.
« Last Edit: September 6, 2022, 04:57:30 pm by Redric1970 »