Topic: SPOILERS The Chainless Game of Thrones and House of the Dragon Discussion

[OsirisMVZ]

Spoiler

They haven't explained it in the show yet and who knows if they ever will at the pace they're going, so I'm going to outright say it, Euron's ship is called The Silence. It is literally a massive stealth ship and if you can't see it with your own eyes then he can sneak up on you/travel wherever he wants. Hopefully that explains how he basically teleports

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I thought the final scene was magnificent, two fine actors playing two great characters dropping truth bombs everywhere.

[thegoodfella]

I think the criticism is mostly because the show has started to break its own structural boundaries and rules of the fictional world it is telling the story in. For example, the distance and size of the Kingdom, the complexity of the number of houses and inner politics of the North, Dorne, Riverlands, Vale was there as a check on each Lord and King/Queen from becoming all too powerful. Now people have become Final Level Boss powerful doing everything and anything they want. Dorne, Reach, Riverlands, Vale mean fuck all now.

[oojason]

Jon Snow...

Spoiler

and his titles...




Davos in return could have gone with... 'and this is Jon Snow - Banger of Red Wildlings, He Who Knows Nothing, The White Wolf, The Resurrected, Master of the Tongue, Slayer of the Undead, Friend of the Free Folk, Hero of Hardhome, Former Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, Master of Brooding, Killer of White Walkers, Bastard of Ned Stark, Saviour Of Wildlings, The Basher of Boltons, Sometimes has a Direwolf - sometimes not, DA KING IN DA NORF...' - but kept it simple

quality from Davos there...

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[Camarero25]

I wonder if people have really lost the ability to immerse themselves into a fiction. I watch my big share of TV, Movies and story-driven videogames, and sometimes appreciate critical reviews (when there's a certain something I liked or disliked I can't quite put my finger on).

But, and maybe I'm wrong, when you get so many people talking about the "writing" (be that good or bad), for me it inevitably takes whoever pronounces that out of the fiction into a critical fourth-wall touching scenario, which makes any work lose its magic.

Again, maybe I'm a bit old fashioned, but it's also the reason I don't saturate myself in interviews of the actors, writers and stuff like that until after a story is done.

I've really liked this season: maybe I'll like it less viewing it as a whole after the series is done, but man, why's everybody a critic these days?

If the writing was better it'd be easier to immerse myself in the fiction. Like it is with the books.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

I have no problem with the teleporting its just that different stories in one episode are working on different times lines one maybe over hours another one over days. better that a caption saying 2 weeks later or something

Yeah me neither,,that was set up with Samwells slopping out montage.

Still seems like they are rushing it though,if anything seasons 7 & 8 should be longer that the previous 6.

[The 1989 Brit Awards]

If the writing was better it'd be easier to immerse myself in the fiction. Like it is with the books.

Even with the books I'd go with my opinion. It's like watching fireworks with your family on NYE, having a good time and someone commenting "good/bad gunpowder".

All subjective, of course.

[Musketeer Gripweed]

That episode was fantastic. Back to characters interacting with each other like they used. Best one in about 3 seasons.

[BazC]

Does anyone find the pacing a little bit too fast? Another jam packed episode,

I thought it was an amazing episode because of it, so much going on. But looking back on it...

Spoiler

That battle should have been a bit more epic! I think there's only room for the biggest of set pieces now, but I'm enjoying the drama. The tension at the start between Jon and Dany's first meeting was brilliant. Kind of bookended by the very last scene. It's moving at a fast pace, but as long as they don't fuck up the biggest of battles coming up, it'll be fine. They spent a decent amount of time on last week's, nothing on Casterley Rock/Tyrell's but hey, it's still gripping to.

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All in all, brilliant tv.

[El Lobo]

Euron

Fucking love that lad

[jillcwhomever]

Euron

Fucking love that lad

Think he's a weak link myself a pantomime villain.

[Sheer Magnetism]

Yeah, the guy playing him comes off like a bad Ollie Reed. I get the issues with pacing but I thought this was the best episode in the season so far. My issue is with colloquialisms and dull cliches sneaking into the writing here and there, it really does take you out of it.

[Sahara]

The pacing does seem a lot quicker so far, hopefully, at the very least, the last episode should be a 2-hour finale. 

[TepidT2O]

In my house we call Jorah the man who knows everything.

Seriously, there isn't a tribe, a short cut across a mountain, a conmans trick or a military manoeuvre that he doesn't know or hasn't discussed in great detail over a beer...

Yet he didn't know the way to treat his condition? He's literally known everything at every point of six series, fucnny that he should run out of ideas then!

[Camarero25]

Yeah, the guy playing him comes off like a bad Ollie Reed. I get the issues with pacing but I thought this was the best episode in the season so far. My issue is with colloquialisms and dull cliches sneaking into the writing here and there, it really does take you out of it.

"Finger up the bum?"

[jillcwhomever]

Jorah will hopefully turn it back to Dany's favour. Tyrion has been terrible so far in his military advice. I'm beginning to wonder if he is batting for the other side.

[Chris~]

Jorah will hopefully turn it back to Dany's favour. Tyrion has been terrible so far in his military advice. I'm beginning to wonder if he is batting for the other side.

Given Varys is supposed to know everything with his little birds it's more suspicious/weird he doesn't know what's going on.

In my house we call Jorah the man who knows everything.

Seriously, there isn't a tribe, a short cut across a mountain, a conmans trick or a military manoeuvre that he doesn't know or hasn't discussed in great detail over a beer...

Yet he didn't know the way to treat his condition? He's literally known everything at every point of six series, fucnny that he should run out of ideas then!

I don't know why he didn't just cut his arm off when he first got infected, he knew what it was going to do to him.

[Buck Pete]

Was the first episode of this series the one and only time they had a scene before the opening credits?

No

I'm sure there was an episode last season that reintroduced The Hound when he was travelling with Ian McShanes character.

Remember discussing on here at the time about it being a rare pre-opening credits scene.

[Red_Irishman]

There was definitely 1 if not 2 cold openings before.

[jillcwhomever]

Given Varys is supposed to know everything with his little birds it's more suspicious/weird he doesn't know what's going on.
I don't know why he didn't just cut his arm off when he first got infected, he knew what it was going to do to him.

True to be honest I like Varys but we don't know too much about him really. Doesn't Cersei's weird maestor run his little birds now?

[The 1989 Brit Awards]

Given Varys is supposed to know everything with his little birds it's more suspicious/weird he doesn't know what's going on.
I don't know why he didn't just cut his arm off when he first got infected, he knew what it was going to do to him.

Given the length the show has gone in showing Jaime as being a cripple with him being handless and so on (and consequently being at the end of jokes), maybe Jorah thought he would be as useless to Daenerys..

[S]

Another great episode.

I don't understand the complaints about the pacing.

There are 10 episodes left, which means we are already in the final stages. Therefore it makes perfect storytelling sense that episodes from now on would proceed at a more frantic pace, as that's the best way of conveying that things in Westeros are about to kick off.

A slower pace is needed to introduce the audience to the world, it's characters and their pivotal successes and failures. So for example we had the slow moving plot lines of Jon Snow toiling in the North.

A faster pace is needed when you need to move those same characters into action for the climax. So now we have Jon Snow at Winterfell in one episode and then at Dragonstone in another. That's absolutely fine, we know him by now. His character no longer has to be shown travelling for 5 episodes.

It's also interesting that there are complaints about the speed of the last scene, in which the Lannisters attack Highgarden. Jaime points out that he based his tactics on a prior attack by Robb Stark. Yet for all the criticisms over pacing that particular attack didn't get a single second of airtime in the first season.

[Redcap]

The first episode I maintain was trash, but the last two have been excellent.

Spoiler

Jon+Dany scene = class
Jon + Tyrion scene = class
Jaime + Olenna scene = class
Cersei + Elaria Sand scene = class
Bran + Sansa scene = wtf

Sad Olenna's dead, but terrific way to go out.

Slightly worried about Grey Worm.

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Spoiler

They haven't explained it in the show yet and who knows if they ever will at the pace they're going, so I'm going to outright say it, Euron's ship is called The Silence. It is literally a massive stealth ship and if you can't see it with your own eyes then he can sneak up on you/travel wherever he wants. Hopefully that explains how he basically teleports

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That's not a thing in the books either though. The stealthiest part about it is that the crew are mutes.

The teleporting stuff is pretty poor, to be honest. I don't have an issue with it generally, but there's a limit to what you can do with it.

Spoiler

e.g. Danaerys has an army of 2.5 million Dothraki, Dornishmen, Ironborn and Unsullied scattered around Westeros, and Cersei has an army of 1 million Lannisters, Greyjoys and Tarlys, it doesn't make sense that Cersei's 1 million can have unlimited movement around the map and take out Dany's allies piece by piece before they can reinforce each other. It doesn't make sense that Highgarden, one of the great castles of the continent, would fall to Lannister invasion overnight because.. why exactly? What would prevent them from holding out until Dany sends over reinforcements?

It's one thing to avoid dragging out movement for the sake of realism, but it's quite another to basically be cheating for the sake of narrative convenience. It makes it more difficult to suspend one's disbelief because you know, regardless of the situation any given character is in, you know that help could be on its way from the other side of the world in the next scene.

Anyway, that was quite a rant but there's enough going on that I'm not too bothered at the moment. Doesn't stop it from being nonsense though.

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[Schmidt]

Really good episode.

Spoiler

Jaime, Cersei and Euron are taking full advantage of their battle experience and knowledge. No way could Tyrion know just how worthless a location Casterly Rock is now, attacking it would've been a good way to simultaneously decimate the Lannister forces while also taking control of their gold supply if the mines weren't empty.

He also couldn't have known that Tarly had allied with the Lannisters, simultaneously bolstering their own forces while leaving the Tyrells weak. At this point the Tyrells are done and I'm not sure anyone in Dorne is going to war over Ellaria, so they've really evened up the odds.

The Euron travel time doesn't bother me, Jon had to travel a long way by both land and sea, the unsullied had to travel just as far as Euron and they all reached their destinations in the same episode so it's clear a lot of time has been passing. I'm no naval expert so I don't know how plausible stealth-Euron is, but assuming that either Jaime told him the unsullied were headed to Casterly Rock or they saw the unsullied ships pass Kings Landing, it doesn't seem crazy that he could've followed them, especially since the land by Casterly Rock is sort of a bay and north of it are the Iron Islands, so it would've been easy to pin Dany's ships in there without needing to sneak up on them.

It was great to see Jon and Dany cross paths and bond a little, though they're never going to be that interesting to watch together given they're probably the flattest characters in the show. I was just happy to see Jon and Tyrion chatting and also for the story to get one step closer to coming together. It's nice to see the Stark children slowly returning to Winterfell too, at some point in the show they must've all thought they were the last of them so it'll be good to see four of them together again, assuming we get to see that of course.

It's tough to see where Dany goes from here, her best move is maybe to agree to leave Jon as King in the North and form an alliance with him, and by extension The Eyrie? She could also try to take Highgarden back as that's in a good location and is a good supply of food (the Dothraki horde hiding in her basement must be getting peckish).

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[Redcap]

It's tough to see where Dany goes from here, her best move is maybe to agree to leave Jon as King in the North and form an alliance with him, and by extension The Eyrie? She could also try to take Highgarden back as that's in a good location and is a good supply of food (the Dothraki horde hiding in her basement must be getting peckish).

You're getting way too into the strategy for a show like this, mate.

Spoiler

Question: why did Euron wait for the Unsullied to take Casterly Rock before they destroyed the ships? It seems the Unsullied took the Rock with a few squadron of men anyway, and left the remainder left on the ships as a distraction. If Euron is so omnipotent on the seas, why didn't he just take out the fleet before they went out and killed the soldiers in the Rock?

It all doesn't really bear thinking too much about, when you get down to it. But like I said, I'm still enjoing it.

I thought Jon + Dany was actually very well done. They're both fairly boring characters as you say, but they made it work. It probably helped quite a bit that Davos and Tyrion were both there.

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[Schmidt]

You're getting way too into the strategy for a show like this, mate.

Spoiler

Question: why did Euron wait for the Unsullied to take Casterly Rock before they destroyed the ships? It seems the Unsullied took the Rock with a few squadron of men anyway, and left the remainder left on the ships as a distraction. If Euron is so omnipotent on the seas, why didn't he just take out the fleet before they went out and killed the soldiers in the Rock?

It all doesn't really bear thinking too much about, when you get down to it. But like I said, I'm still enjoing it.

I thought Jon + Dany was actually very well done. They're both fairly boring characters as you say, but they made it work. It probably helped quite a bit that Davos and Tyrion were both there.

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Spoiler

I'm assuming Euron was a good distance behind the unsullied, which is why he didn't attack until after they took Casterly Rock. It looked like it all happened quickly but I'm sure the attack took a long time and Euron didn't arrive until a day or two after the unsullied, though it's hard to know for sure as we don't know when the unsullied left Dragonstone. I don't think the unsullied left men on the ships, the bulk of their force attacked the walls while a small squad snuck in to open the doors. The attack on their boats was mainly to cripple their navy and strand their forces far from anywhere important.

Yeah I think the Dany/Jon stuff went well enough, I just wouldn't want to see those two alone for too many more scenes.

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[oojason]

Re the Euron 'teleporting'...

Spoiler

It's possible that Euron's fleet including The Silence (his ship) made it's way to Casterly Rock as soon as they had defeated Yara and Theon's fleet. Meanwhile Euron could have gone to Kinglanding - without his fleet - to parade his presents for Cersei in preparation for a marriage to her (and he didn't know he'd have to wait until the end of the War until he delivered the 2 Dornish to her). Euron himself may not have been near Casterly Rock at all...

It's still quick moving around on the part of Euron's fleet - but nothing the show hasn't done in the past - especially with Littlefinger

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Next week's episode is only 50 minutes long - which is quite short for a Game Of Thrones episode....

[Redcap]

Re the Euron 'teleporting'...

Spoiler

It's possible that Euron's fleet including The Silence (his ship) made it's way to Casterly Rock as soon as they had defeated Yara and Theon's fleet. Meanwhile Euron could have gone to Kinglanding - without his fleet - to parade his presents for Cersei in preparation for a marriage to her (and he didn't know he'd have to wait until the end of the War until he delivered the 2 Dornish to her). Euron himself may not have been near Casterly Rock at all...

It's still quick moving around on the part of Euron's fleet - but nothing the show hasn't done in the past - especially with Littlefinger

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Yeah.. none of it really makes sense to be honest.

I think the show basically considers the geography of Westeros to be a bit of an inconvenience and is happy to ignore it.

[zebenzui]

I've held off watching the show until recently (stopped when the show began to outstrip the book material) and realised I had nothing to worry about - the events depicted in the show would not be the way things go down in the book. They're just too stupid. Long, long rant ahead.

Spoiler

To start with, they've just dropped Euron in as the ultimate plot device. He serves no purpose but to have his political interests be co-opted into that of the Big Bad character. His fleet shows up everywhere and anywhere and he sweeps all before him despite the vast distances involved.

The feasibility of the capture of Casterly Rock is dubious at best. Tyrion himself states that he expects the defenders to outnumber the unsullied. That alone would render the effort not worth making in a sane world. Especially given that the plan was to assault the castle, which would invariably be a costly exercise, to be attempted only with overwhelming superiority. The secret tunnel is barely of note seeing as it would have been made to smuggle random prostitutes into the keep, not carve an entrance for an army. I just can't summon the suspension of disbelief required to accept that a dozen or so (maybe even double that number) soldiers could, at a time of siege and thus of high alert among the defenders, could enter the castle through a secret tunnel and open the many castle gates (doubtless not just the small matter of lifting the bar on the gate but taking the gatehouse and mechanisms for the drawbridge and portcullis too.

If it was the Lannister plan to yield the castle, then it's a moronic plan. Who would yield their (albeit symbolic) seat of power in the opening stroke of a war? Even if the unsullied's ships are destroyed, they're still in possession of the de jure Lannister 'capital'. What sort of signal does that send to the Lannister vassals. And other wavering/'floating' houses. They could have easily opted to resist the unsullied and have Euron destroy the unsullied fleet all the same (assuming Euron could not have intercepted the invading armada). Except this way the unsullied would be marooned deep in enemy territory without a secure base (prostitue tunnels notwithstanding) to operate from.

In any event, it was monumentally stupid of Tyrion and Daenarys to conceive of, and approve respectively, this plan to send the best soldiers at Targaryen disposal to literally the other side of the continent when they are well aware that they quite probably would not be able to gain naval superiority over the areas their armada would have to traverse. As it happened, the Targaryen-Ironborn fleet was attacked with impunity seemingly close to Dragonstone itself.

As for the Tyrells. They were made to seem extremely powerful and wealthy, only to be vanquished without any fanfare at all within an episode. All that manpower (enough to swing the Blackwater), wealth (made more than apparent in past seasons) and resources (highly populated 'kingdom' with productive lands) only to be beaten practically offscreen. Seems odd that a woman of Olenna's supposed calibre would basically render her house defunct (in the Stark sense before they made their comeback) if her hand was this weak. If this is the payoff for the Targaryen-Tyrell-(not)Martell Grand Alliance, then it's fallen rather flat.

On the Martells, how did Ellaria come to power anyway? She wasn't in the line of succession. She murdered the last ruling lord, but that doesnt give her a claim. The only way I can conceive of that makes sense is she was hoisted into power by popular and noble acclaim, by dint of her and the Sand Snakes capturing the public mood in Dorne. But then that still doesn't give them any actual power, not any that would be missed back in Dorne anyway. If the lords and commoners of Dorne are of one heart and mind in pursuing this alliance with Daenarys and vendetta against the Lannisters - they'd just rally around some other randoms with no legal connection to house Martell. Their deaths (much like their lives), are narratively pointless in this respect. They are nobody.

Cersei's ascension suffers from similiarly fraught logic too. She has no claim at all to the throne. Absolutely none. Moreover, she is of an age where she may well not bear any more children - she's not even married and has certainly shown no inclination to change that. So Westeros would be due another succession crisis when she dies. She is as unsuitable (in the eyes of the general nobility) a candidate to the throne as they come. Her public support would be tenuous (naked walk of humiliation through the capital - no monarch could survive that), if not outright non-existant (depending on whether she was able to suppress suspicion towards her over the destruction of the Great Sept and the deaths of the Head Sparrow and Tyrells. Her ascension would probably throw into doubt the death of Tommen too. Not to mention the sparrows should still be an issue - they never seemed so centralised an organisation that a mere assassination could see to them.

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End rant. But there are so many logical pitfalls with how they're progressing and resolving plot points. Someone earlier mentioned fireworks when appealing to others to 'just enjoy the show', and it's hard for me to see it as much more that - fireworks. Just pretty lights, compelling visuals, grand vistas - but it's not high drama, or portraying complex intrigue. It's barely more than high production ASOIAF fan-fiction.

[Redcap]

Have you been paying attention to the last few seasons? There's a reason why this show is marching on and the books are snowed in by the Winds of Winter.

This is a massive, flawed show. But there are lots of things to enjoy about it. The set pieces. The outrageously talented cast. Some genuinely sharp scenes here and there. The sheer spectacle of the thing.

I think you're probably barking up the wrong tree if you thought this was ever going to be a completely faithful adaptation of the books, particularly when the showrunners ran out of material to go with. That's generally a risky expectation with any adaptation, really. But this show went off on its own tangent years ago.

[Jambo Power]

Yet it makes piles and piles of cash and therein lies the reason for it.

[SandyShore]

The outrageously talented cast is stretching it, very much a mixed bag when it comes to the acting on the show.

[Trada]

Spoiler

Now the cat is out of the bag, will they try to get Tyrion to rejoin them and double cross Daenerys don't think he will but it must have some kind of impact. Maybe him doing the double agent.

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[Redcap]

The outrageously talented cast is stretching it, very much a mixed bag when it comes to the acting on the show.

Let's list some of the acting talent on show:

Peter Dinklage
Nicolaj Walder-Costau
Lena Headey
Maisie Williams
Charles Dance
Sean Bean
Diana Rigg
Liam Cunningham
Natalie Dormer
Stephen Dillane
Jonathan Pryce
Aidan Gillen
Jim Broadbent

Yes there are a bunch of other no marks as well, but on the whole there's a lot of quality on show.

The thing about GoT is not that it's perfect. It's far from perfect and I've been a vocal critic. But its scale is massive, and inclusive within that scale is loads of quality. There's nothing else like it.

[Something Worse]

Walder-Costau is not good, but I think it's partly to do with managing the accent too.

[Lastrador]

Walder-Costau is not good, but I think it's partly to do with managing the accent too.

Walder-Costau was flawless until season 4, where the show runners clearly didn't know what do with his character after he arrived in Kings Landing. His performance was a highlight of season 3 for me. Look at his scene with Brienne on the hothub, absolutely pitch perfect.

[Chris~]

Given the length the show has gone in showing Jaime as being a cripple with him being handless and so on (and consequently being at the end of jokes), maybe Jorah thought he would be as useless to Daenerys..

But better use to her as a stone man?

He was there mainly for council as well, not fighting.

[LallanaInPyjamas]

Last two episodes have been fantastic. It's all gold from here on out isn't it?

Walder-Costau is not good, but I think it's partly to do with managing the accent too.

Aiden Gillen is far worse in this to be honest.

[Barefoot Doctor]

Last two episodes have been fantastic. It's all gold from here on out isn't it?

Aiden Gillen is far worse in this to be honest.

Think Gillen's been alright since he gave up any pretence of hiding his Irish accent. Was far worse when he was going between Irish and English.

[Phil M]

Last two episodes have been fantastic. It's all gold from here on out isn't it?

Really? Found the latest a bit meh myself.

Spoiler

What's the story with Melisandre? Why isn't she using her powers or whatever to show Daenarys the army of the dead are coming or has she jacked that stuff in?

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[Phil M]

Also...

Spoiler

So Jon Snow was able to reach Dragonstone castle by boat all the way in the South quicker than Bran could be brought back to Winterfell? Err...

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