Topic: Maradona 1960-2020

[Brentieke]

The people who are calling him boring only serve to prove just how high the standards he has set are. He regularly scores 25 yarders right into the top corner - for anyone else a remarkable feat - for Messi? The norm. He's taken football to another level.

That's the wonder of him.

As a player, he definately isnt boring. He's the 2nd best player I've ever seen in my life.

His personality though is bland as fuck.

[Spanish Fan]

Quite frankly Spanish Fan, if you want to dismiss "your team" s top scorer at 25 then fair play.

Dont be surprised if people think you seem fucking ridicuous whilst doing so though.

I am dismissing some parts of his game.  In others he is exceptionally good, probably the best player ever at those. But a fantastic playmaker he is not and his workrate lets a lot to be desired.

[Bastion Of Invincibility]

And that's why I doubt he'll ever be loved like Diego was. Doesnt matter if he wins the World Cup or not. That may elevate him in most people's eyes as the best ever, but it won't make people fall in love with him. There will be no Church of Messi or endless documentaries and folk songs about him. He's a boring, uncharasmatic individual who is immensely talented. World cup medals wont change that.

There's no passion, no burning fire, no rebel attitude, no warrior spirit, no presence, no leadership, no enigma in Messi. If he wasn't amazingly talented, he'd be a virgin midget in Rosario. If Diego didnt have the football talent he did, he's probably have been the leader of a cult.

And before anyone else wades in, this is simply a conversation about people loving Diego. I've made comments on both players' respective football talents elsewhere in this thread.

Brilliant post. I'm firmly on the side of those for whom sport is about glory, not records. Diego's influence on his clubs, country and teammates was so much more than Messi's will ever be.

[ElCapo]

ElCapo, you name (pretty much out of blue, or rather I know why, pick any "historical defender") some defenders from the past and laugh at Pique being a top defender, as if that proves something. If you were honest, you'd admit you didn't watch those, you just named because "it's a known fact" as somebody put.

Did you watch Gentile? I doubt it. In this very thread there are youtube vidoes of how defenders "stopped" Maradona. There's nothing brilliant in there. No skill, no legendary defending abilities. Just use the horrible refereeing of that era to chop players down. But you have an anti-Barcelona agenda, so you were going to say something against Barca, Messi, Pique etc.

Terrible arguments, mind. Pique is a superb footballer, the best defender in the world when Puyol is not around Messi? He'd be having fun vs those defenders you mentioned if they were playing professional football these days, which is not a fact given the youtube videos posted on here. They don't seem much better than Pogatetz.

I picked up top defenders when Diego was strutting his stuff in Serie A.  I grew up wanting to be a keeper, and Tacconi was my idol.   So i did watch Gentile, Scirea, Cabrini, Tardelli. I watched Bergomi and Ferri, de Agostini and Vierchowood. I watched Baresi, Maldini, Costacurta, Tassotti.

Anyways, I'm bored of you and your Pique.  Just go shake your hips somewhere else

[fudge]

That's why

[Danny_]

Defenders are quicker, fitter and stronger these days. Fact. Messi has performed week in week out against these top athletes, therefore Messi > Maradona.

Anything said about maradona playing in this era is an 'if' 'but' or 'maybe'.

It's absolute cr@p to say that Messi isn't a great playmaker but it's also a fact that defenders used to just hack players down which is a lot worse than being stronger, fitter and (debatable) quicker.   Messi never had to deal with this the way Maradona did. 

[Danny_]

the point he was making is that contrary to many opinions, defenders were not nearly as shit as some would have them portrayed...nor as slow, or as ill-disciplined as described either.....all things are relative, and if you want to say today's footballers are better cos they are fitter then fair enough, take a player brought up, trained and conditioned today and transplant him into a team 20 years ago, and no doubt he will have an edge, and wil be more physically capable for longer periods of time and have better tactical awareness then many of the players......firstly, that may still not translate into him performing better, as the game was different, tactics different, rules and, more importantly, how referees enforced them were different.....but he would have a pretty good head start.....now take some of the players mentioned, maradona as a starter, and defenders like gentile, vierchowod, scirea....even more recent vintages like maldini - who was a star right up until a couple of years ago, but started playing in the 80's and i do not see a player struggling physically to keep up - and you will see players who given similar base physical conditions would be as outstanding today as they were yesterday

Just to give a concrete example, at the time Maradona was playing, he was facing the likes of Maldini who was playing for Milan.  Does anybody seriously believe that Maldini wouldn't be a top player in today's game?  That argument is absolute cr@p and only the people who never saw football in the 80's could make it.  In fact, I'd take Maldini in his prime over almost any defender in the PL or Spain right now.

Franco Baresi is another one... Yeah, those Italian defenders in the 80's sure were shit, weren't they!

[keyo]

Just to give a concrete example, at the time Maradona was playing, he was facing the likes of Maldini who was playing for Milan.  Does anybody seriously believe that Maldini wouldn't be a top player in today's game?  That argument is absolute cr@p and only the people who never saw football in the 80's could make it.  In fact, I'd take Maldini in his prime over almost any defender in the PL or Spain right now.

Franco Baresi is another one... Yeah, those Italian defenders in the 80's sure were shit, weren't they!

absolutely,,and having seen maldini play at euro 96, not only was he a superb athlete, he was an absolute thug to boot, hacking the crap out of his man at every opportunity and given much greater latitude to do it.....noticeably, he was able to play as well when he didn't have that freedom ....................the idea that it was SO MUCH easier in the 80's and 90's just doesn't hold water....it's almost like it was some dark age so long ago with charles "charlie" charles jinking down the wing with a pipe in his mouth the way some people would have it

[El_Pelusa_10]

Doubt it. Much as I doubt the Kop would have loved Owen more than Fowler even if Owen had brought home number 19.

Diego is adored, worshiped even. By Argentines yes, but also by football fans from all over the world. Look at a Serb in Kusterica, famous filmmaker, hugely successful. Still, he was so infatuated with Diego he went and did a documentary about him.

Im Lebanese, grew up in the UK, now living in Beirut. I have no ties to Argentina. But I worship Diego, absolutely adore him. He's the one football man I'd most like to meet before I die, whereas if I met Messi, I probably wouldn't blink. And if I met him and Mascherano at the same time, Id be like that guy in the famous picture and ask Messi to take a pic of me and Masch.

Messi is bland, bland, bland.  And fake. He acts like he couldn't give a fuck about the Ballon D'or, about records. People take the piss out of Ronaldo for being a bad loser, for wanting individual honors. But you know what? At least Ronaldo is honest about that. He doesnt hide the fact he's dying to be seen as the best in the world. Messi walks around acting like he doesnt care about all of that, when all the reports and books show the contrary.

Bland and fake. Just like Michael Owen was. Completely manufactured by PR agencies and agents, much as all other sportsmen are in every sport nowadays.  Hard to feel much love for someone like that. He inspires nothing in me at all.

And that's why I doubt he'll ever be loved like Diego was. Doesnt matter if he wins the World Cup or not. That may elevate him in most people's eyes as the best ever, but it won't make people fall in love with him. There will be no Church of Messi or endless documentaries and folk songs about him. He's a boring, uncharasmatic individual who is immensely talented. World cup medals wont change that.

There's no passion, no burning fire, no rebel attitude, no warrior spirit, no presence, no leadership, no enigma in Messi. If he wasn't amazingly talented, he'd be a virgin midget in Rosario. If Diego didnt have the football talent he did, he's probably have been the leader of a cult.

And before anyone else wades in, this is simply a conversation about people loving Diego. I've made comments on both players' respective football talents elsewhere in this thread.

Top post! Summed up exactly how I feel aswell! Well played sir!

Theres something about Diego when you watched him, endless will to win and succeed and nothing but pure passion! Its the reason the Argentinians loved him. Pure passion for the game and Argentina! Wore his heart on his sleeve in every game. Watch his disallowed goal v Uruguay in 86, hes absolutely gutted his goal didnt count against one of his countries biggest rivals. And that epic stare at the English team when they lined up before that semi final. Couldn't imagine Messi doing anything like that. Top top player, best in the world, but does nothing to inspire me!

[Lothar88]

Messi got the talent,but he's not good enough to touch the Maradona's shadow...not only for the skills but even if we talk about personality inside and outside the pitch (especially with the national team).
A player like Maradona comes out only one time in 100 years.

[The 1989 Brit Awards]

Messi got the talent,but he's not good enough to touch the Maradona's shadow...not only for the skills but even if we talk about personality inside and outside the pitch (especially with the national team).
A player like Maradona comes out only one time in 100 years.

Yeah, a real priest off the field, that fella 

[ElCapo]

That's the kind of defenses Diego had to deal with in Serie A.    Messi was completely shut down by Milan, had zero influence on the game.

As an aside Messi hasn't scored in open play against an Italian, let's see how he does at Camp Nou.

[keyo]

Yeah, a real priest of the field, that fella 

regardless of what people think of maradona outside of argentina, and what he did or is alleged to have done, he was always an inspiration to the argentine national side, and was followed and revered by a country.....he was influential with the players, the management of the argentine football team, and the argentine fa.....he just wanted to succeed and for argentina to succeed, something they have failed to do far too much given their array of talent.....wih maradona on board, that was not the case, they did not come up short so much

[keyo]

That's why

this was my favourite pic of maradona....summed up the world cup in mexico perfectly for me

[Antics]

That's the kind of defenses Diego had to deal with in Serie A.    Messi was completely shut down by Milan, had zero influence on the game.

As an aside Messi hasn't scored in open play against an Italian, let's see how he does at Camp Nou.

Knew as soon as the game ended some genius would bump this thread.

[Po The Panda]

The fuss with Maradona was unlike Messi he could make Italian defences look silly, as this was the 13th time Lio played against an Italian side and has yet to score against them in open play.

[Hazell]

Unfair. One match that sticks out is the 2-2 match at the Nou Camp, Messi set up the equalising goal for Barcelona against Milan's Italian defence.

40 secs in:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/KmGCc6R-pbo" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/KmGCc6R-pbo</a>

[golgolgol]

The fuss with Maradona was unlike Messi he could make Italian defences look silly, as this was the 13th time Lio played against an Italian side and has yet to score against them in open play.

If Messi played 40+ games a season against Italian teams im sure he would make them look silly too. El Sharaawy does it, Messi can too.

[Flinstone]

hmmm...while i don't have a problem with over  the top extravagant personalities like maradona and ali i tend to lean towards sportspeople like messi and tendulkar.

there is something amazing about these two and a few others that they speak less and keep private and just go about dismantling records and raising the bar in their respective sports.

internalized aggression.

i reckon messi plays with more 'passion' than maradona

[keyo]

hmmm...while i don't have a problem with over  the top extravagant personalities like maradona and ali i tend to lean towards sportspeople like messi and tendulkar.

there is something amazing about these two and a few others that they speak less and keep private and just go about dismantling records and raising the bar in their respective sports.

internalized aggression.

i reckon messi plays with more 'passion' than maradona

Seriously?  You honestly believe that messi plays with more "passion" than maradona? The debate about quality and records, well, that is circular and never ending, so to choose passion as a differentiator is odd, I would suggest.....maradona's "passion" is what drove him and his side to a world cup, to a serie a title, to everything he achieved, and even to his downfall, maradona played the best years of his career with pain killing injections to get him on the pitch a high proportion of the time....so to suggest messi's passion is greater needs some backing

And picking tendulkar for comparison, despite the difference in personality, he has more in common with maradona than messi in that he has played his full career in the full glare that comes with awe, love and worship that they both received from their countryman, treated almost as deities

[Yorkykopite]

Unfair. One match that sticks out is the 2-2 match at the Nou Camp, Messi set up the equalising goal for Barcelona against Milan's Italian defence.

40 secs in:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/KmGCc6R-pbo" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/KmGCc6R-pbo</a>

That is one of the great assists. The pass is simply gorgeous.

[ElCapo]

ElCapo, you name (pretty much out of blue, or rather I know why, pick any "historical defender") some defenders from the past and laugh at Pique being a top defender, as if that proves something. If you were honest, you'd admit you didn't watch those, you just named because "it's a known fact" as somebody put.

Did you watch Gentile? I doubt it. In this very thread there are youtube vidoes of how defenders "stopped" Maradona. There's nothing brilliant in there. No skill, no legendary defending abilities. Just use the horrible refereeing of that era to chop players down. But you have an anti-Barcelona agenda, so you were going to say something against Barca, Messi, Pique etc.

Terrible arguments, mind. Pique is a superb footballer, the best defender in the world when Puyol is not around Messi? He'd be having fun vs those defenders you mentioned if they were playing professional football these days, which is not a fact given the youtube videos posted on here. They don't seem much better than Pogatetz.

Can I quote your third paragraph just for $hits and giggles? 

[StrikingMidfield]

Watching Maradona videos and old records, there's no doubt he was one of the very best players ever. And without having watched everybody, I will agree with people putting him in top 3 with Messi and Pele. Heck, I won't argue if he gets top 2.

What I hate is that now every new player is compared to him, and are asked to do exactly what he has done. This is ludicrous, it's a stupid argument, because Maradona was never asked to score 1200+ goals Pele scored to be declared the best ever (by some). He was never asked to win 3 world cups that Pele won, to be declared he is better than Pele (by some). Maradona never won in Continental and Intercontinental cups that Pele won either, and it was OK.

Yet, Messi has to do what he has done, according to some. He has to play for a shitty club (although Napoli weren't that bad but there you go, a stupid argument), and win a world cup or two. It's silly, stupid and just boring now. No human lives an identical life to another one, and having exactly the same conditions is impossible. Maradona didn't do what Pele did, and Messi hasn't done what either Pele or Maradona did. It's OK, Messi is still the best.

This is my thought on this as well. It seems like some people are making a checklist of sorts that Messi has to get through in his career to be considered the best ever.    Not to mention that they both played in two very different eras of Football, which in itself makes the whole "Messi has to meet or beat Maradonas accomplishments to be the best" argument a load of garbage.

[elkun]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--ACUzCCza8 his passing was ridiculously good

[Spanish Fan]

That's the kind of defenses Diego had to deal with in Serie A.    Messi was completely shut down by Milan, had zero influence on the game.

As an aside Messi hasn't scored in open play against an Italian, let's see how he does at Camp Nou.

You stop Messi slalom and he becomes a nothing player, and with some intelligent marking and defenders quick enough you can achieve that. Seen many instances to come to that conclusion. Maradona fat and out of shape could still influence games thanks to his vision, intelligence and passing.

By the way, when Barcelona are not playing well Messi never raises the level of the team. He may get you a goal or have a couple of runs, but does not improve the overall play of his teammates. In that respect the comparison to Maradona is well out of place. Messi is above anything a forward even if he comes from deeper positions to score.

[ElCapo]

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/8975707/diego-maradona-now

[Nessy76]

You stop Messi slalom and he becomes a nothing player, and with some intelligent marking and defenders quick enough you can achieve that. Seen many instances to come to that conclusion. Maradona fat and out of shape could still influence games thanks to his vision, intelligence and passing.

By the way, when Barcelona are not playing well Messi never raises the level of the team. He may get you a goal or have a couple of runs, but does not improve the overall play of his teammates. In that respect the comparison to Maradona is well out of place. Messi is above anything a forward even if he comes from deeper positions to score.

Do you think it's the tactics or the players in Spain which are so utterly useless to let him score so many goals then? I always think it's a pretty good league myself, but clearly it must be absolute shite.

[Rohit]

You stop Messi slalom and he becomes a nothing player, and with some intelligent marking and defenders quick enough you can achieve that. Seen many instances to come to that conclusion. Maradona fat and out of shape could still influence games thanks to his vision, intelligence and passing.

By the way, when Barcelona are not playing well Messi never raises the level of the team. He may get you a goal or have a couple of runs, but does not improve the overall play of his teammates. In that respect the comparison to Maradona is well out of place. Messi is above anything a forward even if he comes from deeper positions to score.

Bit harsh to call him a nothing player, no? But your right as he's a forward unlike Maradona he can't control a game or dictate with the absence of Xavi on form. It's no surprise Barca haven't been half the team since xavi has lost his edge since last season. They no longer control a game like they used.

Maradona could do that and did do that which is why Diego could lead a team on to greatness.

[Yorkykopite]

You stop Messi slalom and he becomes a nothing player

 

[Twelfth Man]

Still Diego for me, for a host of reasons not all connected to the football pitch, but even on it hard to compare really, I reckon he would be just as good if not better in this current Barca setup. Messi doesn't fair that well in an inferior national team, Maradona carried lesser sides.

[Brentieke]

Love the man more every passing day!

[Twelfth Man]

Love the man more every passing day!

The players of this generation lack any type of personality. Good players, possibly playing football at a higher level than ever, but oh how fucking boring they are. Diego up there with Mohamed Ali in terms of being an inspirational sports-person for me. Suarez has this mind.

[Yorkykopite]

The players of this generation lack any type of personality. Good players, possibly playing football at a higher level than ever, but oh how fucking boring they are. Diego up there with Mohamed Ali in terms of being an inspirational sports-person for me. Suarez has this mind.

But Suarez is this generation.

[trimore]

I fully understand how neutrals might not like his understated personality but if you were a Barcelona fan you would love it. The only complaint from Barcelona fans I read is that he is a little closed off to them but that is his choice. And while it happens all the time with Messi I would be utterly shocked if he was hiding craziness, especially with the press all over him it would have come out by now (people for years have been calling Armstrong a scumbag).

No fuss, no drama, little ego (there will always be some by default of being the top striker for a giant club like Barcelona), just winning for the team and playing the best he can every game.

While that might affect his form when losing; ie not enough fight, that is also a strong double edged sword. One he night might inspire a great comeback the next might get sent off after twenty minutes and your team has no hope.

Personally I love the no drama from him as I can relate, I want as little drama in my life as possible, just needless, unwanted stress.

[Sir Psycho Sexy]

Hitting his GF. Fucking sad to see what he's become (then again, he wasn't a great role model in his playing days)

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/5Z8O-YFzm08" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/5Z8O-YFzm08</a>

[Jimmy Conway]

He sounds pissed/coked up on that clip.

[ALPH1217]

He sounds pissed/coked up on that clip.

Wouldn't be surprised if its the latter. Its a minor miracle this idiot's still alive especially as he's probably snorted enough white powder in his life to kill about 10 elephants.

[Solomon Grundy]

Why even post that clip? Sure, it's not nice. But everybody has skeletons in their closet and he without sin cast the first stone.

[conman]

Why even post that clip? Sure, it's not nice. But everybody has skeletons in their closet and he without sin cast the first stone.

because it's a cuntish thing to do. We could ignore it ofcourse and only discuss the fun side of him and his ability as a player.

[RedSince86]

Still the greatest of all time.