Topic: Round Table: Crystal Palace 3 Liverpool 3

[007.lankyguy]

Has Johnson declined ?

Or has he not improved at the rate the rest have ?

Not arguing with better students of the game than I, just something to think about though.

He's definitely declined imo. There's been some games where I've thought he looks absolutely shattered but then he starts the next game and the one after. He's been so poor this season (an anomaly in our squad in terms of the consistency of his poor performances) and he's only started because we don't really have any other options and his movement going forward can be good. I'm genuinely struggling to work out why he's been so consistently bad but apart from a mental issue, I can't think. He's been very mediocre since the last few months of last season imo

[GrkStav]

He's definitely declined imo. There's been some games where I've thought he looks absolutely shattered but then he starts the next game and the one after. He's been so poor this season (an anomaly in our squad in terms of the consistency of his poor performances) and he's only started because we don't really have any other options and his movement going forward can be good. I'm genuinely struggling to work out why he's been so consistently bad but apart from a mental issue, I can't think. He's been very mediocre since the last few months of last season imo

He suffered a very bad, very painful and hard to heal injury, a so-called 'high ankle' sprain.

[TSC]

He suffered a very bad, very painful and hard to heal injury, a so-called 'high ankle' sprain.

No idea how valid this is in terms of why he's been poor.  But surely this wouldn't affect his decision making?  And this has been really poor this season.

[007.lankyguy]

But then on the reverse, what do we gain by keeping him on?  He ain't gonna get better.  And he is weak defensively.  Hopefully it'll be addressed in the Summer.

I'm not quite sure about that statement. He has the ability to play a lot better than he has this season. The issue is it's been going on for longer than a year and that's the reason it may not improve.

One of the things you do gain by keeping him is we don't have to start concentrating more spending money on a position of secondary importance such as full back. That may change - I said a few weeks ago that Sunderland's approach, and then obviously shown v Chelsea, is something teams will definitely be trying more of next season and full back will become of higher importance than it has been most of this season if teams decide to concentrate more on condensing space in the final third. It's a trade off - problem is that selling Johnson is not going to make us that much money and then we really do have to sign two full backs, instead of other key positions (centre back, base midfielder, 'associating' midfielder/attacker, winger)

[GrkStav]

No idea how valid this is in terms of why he's been poor.  But surely this wouldn't affect his decision making?  And this has been really poor this season.

I will leave it to PhaseofPlay possibly to explain how a physical problem may affect one's decision-making.

[007.lankyguy]

He suffered a very bad, very painful and hard to heal injury, a so-called 'high ankle' sprain.

I think it's more than that mate. These injuries don't explain his poor decision making or lack of concentration or lack of closing down. Liberation of movement going forward hasn't been too much of an issue most of the time.

[TSC]

I'm not quite sure about that statement. He has the ability to play a lot better than he has this season. The issue is it's been going on for longer than a year and that's the reason it may not improve.

One of the things you do gain by keeping him is we don't have to start concentrating more spending money on a position of secondary importance such as full back. That may change - I said a few weeks ago that Sunderland's approach, and then obviously shown v Chelsea, is something teams will definitely be trying more of next season and full back will become of higher importance than it has been most of this season if teams decide to concentrate more on condensing space in the final third. It's a trade off - problem is that selling Johnson is not going to make us that much money and then we really do have to sign two full backs, instead of other key positions (centre back, base midfielder, 'associating' midfielder/attacker, winger)

For me keeping Johnson, or at least retaining him as first choice RB, means we continue to become weaker in defence on the right hand side.  And this is no longer balanced up by what he offers going forward.  And if the signings are to be believed, and we retain what we have, then we rely much less on the likes of Johnson getting forward.  Which to be fair he's been fairly poor at this season anyway compared to previous.

[Corkboy]

No personal abuse there fella, I'm sure the experience would be out of this world for you

No, I agree with him. You were being a dick.

Also, this is a Round Table thread, where we don't expect to read one member encouraging another member to have a cry wank.

[John C]

I think it's more than that mate. These injuries don't explain his poor decision making or lack of concentration or lack of closing down. Liberation of movement going forward hasn't been too much of an issue most of the time.

Good job its the round table mate because that post will cause a 1000 word convoluted response from our mate. Soz mods, but we have had a belter of a round table season haven't we?

[007.lankyguy]

For me keeping Johnson, or at least retaining him as first choice RB, means we continue to become weaker in defence on the right hand side.  And this is no longer balanced up by what he offers going forward.  And if the signings are to be believed, and we retain what we have, then we rely much less on the likes of Johnson getting forward.  Which to be fair he's been fairly poor at this season anyway compared to previous.

Don't disagree. If we get someone like Richards, that's a fairly solid replacement. It's only the price issue

[L666KOP]

Don't disagree. If we get someone like Richards, that's a fairly solid replacement. It's only the price issue

Comfortable at CB as well, did we not get knocked back on him last season ?

[Draex]

It's been a crux of our poorer performances all season. Our fullbacks don't offer enough in the attacking sense, yet still continue to have the defensive lapses to put us under pressure at the other end, this is fine when you've got our front men on song, but when they stutter and start firing blanks the onus is on the fullbacks (especially when playing a diamond) to be the width for the team, to create that overlap and to force the fullbacks to be dragged wide opening up the channels for a run from a midfielder.

Johnson is an outstanding footballer, but concentration has never been one of this strongest traits, the guy is nearing 30 you'd have to start to think that maybe just maybe he might not be the answer; short, medium or long term for our fullback position. The same excuse is generally bandid about - he's carrying an injury? 50% of me understands he's been overplayed, we haven't had the squad depth to give him the correct recovery period on numerous occasions - he certainly can't bomb up and down the flank for 90minutes anymore it seems. However the complete lack of concentration and generally half-assed approach to defending isn't good enough for a team playing to fine margins.. It's fine margins that enable you to become champions, not conceeding that silly goal from a mistake, making the right decision in the final third when you only get 1 of them in a game.. Johnson for me is a luxoury a team like ours can ill afford, he has to be able to operate individually and part of a team, he simply doesn't do both on a consistant basis to remain first choice for me.

A seasoned international of his stature should not of let that player get past him with a half leg dangle/block - it was just lazy and for a team that was on the cusp of winning the league it showed a complete lack of bottle.

[John C]

For me keeping Johnson, or at least retaining him as first choice RB, means we continue to become weaker in defence on the right hand side.  And this is no longer balanced up by what he offers going forward. 

Just on that point mate, I'd love to find the post but someone suggested that a few months ago - saying that perhaps rb was more important than lb - and another poster, he'll know who he is, said he was a "wum". We must meet in STFU

[007.lankyguy]

Comfortable at CB as well, did we not get knocked back on him last season ?

Can't remember, I pay almost no attention to transfer stuff unless we actually sign the player

Just back to Monday's game, I was impressed by a variation we showed in possession - we played a few long passes from in front of their block to release our attack in space. Crystal Palace were clearly trying to contain us (though they man-marked quite tightly in places) and they often didn't put much pressure on the ball. One of our issues v Chelsea was failing to use the space that they gave us for about two-thirds of the pitch and I thought there were a few examples against Crystal Palace where we played some very good long balls from positions where Palace weren't keen to put pressure on the ball. I liked that variation because it gave the opportunity for our attack to play in less compressed space, and then get at the likes of Delaney, who is very poor in 1v1 situations.

The other thing was Chamakh for a while in the first half was practically man-marking Gerrard but then stopped doing it consistently, which gave him more space. You can see towards the end of this season the new decisions and trade offs teams are starting to make against us now - it's a matter of progressing and remaining a step ahead for us now so that we push on from this next season.

[TSC]

Just on that point mate, I'd love to find the post but someone suggested that a few months ago - saying that perhaps rb was more important than lb - and another poster, he'll know who he is, said he was a "wum". We must meet in STFU

Don't know about that but both positions are as important as each other, especially the way we play.  Can't underestimate how much we've missed Enriche either.  Flanno has been superb but I think if he'd been on the right with Jose on the left then we'd have been much more compact, but with the power (if not the ability!) to frighten teams down the flanks.  Plus both would have tackled when it was needed. 

[Bobinhood]

Who should have been marking (or substitute appropriate term) the CPFC defender who released the long diagonal ball? Suarez? Coutinho?

Agger.

[rickardinho1]

Johnson is a wonderful footballer mate and its likely BR is not going to improve him much as a defender while he's working on other young players, but also telling Glen where to position himself as an offensive player. And therein lyes the problem. Despite the disdain towards Glen after the match, he imo had a brilliant game until about the 70th minute when an over lap was on to create a really good chance and he just didn't have the legs. After that he struggled and BR perhaps should have changed it because Glen was spent by doing what BR asked.

I agree with this to an extent. He was one of the keys for us opening them up with his diagonal runs keeping their left sided players pegged back and was unlucky not to score, and also made 3 or 4 crucial interceptions on good reads on Palace's diagonal balls into space in the first half.

The glaring mistake for me was that he was caught square on against Bolasie which is the last thing any defender should do; either you take them out cynically or you get yourself turned and running deep. In his defense he did get back in a good position to defend, but was slow to close down, just as he was for the 1st goal. Those are the instances Brendan is talking about "concentration" - you can teach a player to be in the right positions as much as you want (and to be fair to Glen, he was in the right positions there), but he just dropped his focus on a couple of occasions defensively.

As I see it, unless there is a top young rightback available at a good price we shouldn't ship him out just yet. I wonder how much he'd fetch for on the market though with 1 year on his contract... Maybe £6m?  That could potentially go towards securing a solid replacement if one is available. Still, I think a lot of squad turnover could be detrimental and I'd rather see incremental changes to the squad rather than a complete overhaul of the starting XI (that doesn't mean good squad options can't be brought in, just that we don't overdo how many players get sold).

[John C]

I agree with this to an extent. He was one of the keys for us opening them up with his diagonal runs keeping their left sided players pegged back and was unlucky not to score, and also made 3 or 4 crucial interceptions on good reads on Palace's diagonal balls into space in the first half.

The glaring mistake for me was that he was caught square on against Bolasie which is the last thing any defender should do; either you take them out cynically or you get yourself turned and running deep. In his defense he did get back in a good position to defend, but was slow to close down, just as he was for the 1st goal. Those are the instances Brendan is talking about "concentration" - you can teach a player to be in the right positions as much as you want (and to be fair to Glen, he was in the right positions there), but he just dropped his focus on a couple of occasions defensively.

As I see it, unless there is a top young rightback available at a good price we shouldn't ship him out just yet. I wonder how much he'd fetch for on the market though with 1 year on his contract... Maybe £6m?  That could potentially go towards securing a solid replacement if one is available. Still, I think a lot of squad turnover could be detrimental and I'd rather see incremental changes to the squad rather than a complete overhaul of the starting XI (that doesn't mean good squad options can't be brought in, just that we don't overdo how many players get sold).

Loads of words and analysis there mate and it leaves us in the same position as Brendan - "fuck me I won the league but I need 8 players" 

[LiamG]

Off topic.... but to PoP,  would you consider doing a few Q's/A's  for the site during the close season?

I'd love to hear your opinions about transfers,  how we step up next season etc etc..

Pop's end of season Review and a look towards the future would be bloody brilliant

no pressure haha

[redtel]

Don't know about that but both positions are as important as each other, especially the way we play.  Can't underestimate how much we've missed Enriche either.  Flanno has been superb but I think if he'd been on the right with Jose on the left then we'd have been much more compact, but with the power (if not the ability!) to frighten teams down the flanks.  Plus both would have tackled when it was needed. 

We can't underestimate how having a squad of only 14 players who are of the required level has hindered us in the run in. If you count the 11 who started on Mon plus Coutinho, Agger,and Henderson you come to a stop. Cissokho can do a defensive job but cannot play the FB role BR is using. If we had Enrique fit or one other FB Glen could have been subbed as it was obvious his efforts in getting up and down the right at 29 years of age had taken a huge toll.His legs were gone and concentration suffers when we get tired.

For me, it's a miracle that we will finish in the top 2 with such a young threadbare squad. Just what we can achieve with the addition of 5 or 6 decent players is very much down to our transfer committee unless Brendan can wrest some control after his superb effort in bringing the squad up to our current dizzy height.

I can't agree that sorting our FB situation out is of less importance than say CB. Both are vital if we want to ship less goals and the FB's in Rodgers team need to be able to attack and defend and be extremely mobile. Flanagan is young enough to improve and has the legs to do what is asked. Johnson may have another season in him but the signs were not good towards the end of Monday's match.

[outlaw_nas]

Suarez was 6 yards away. He should/could have moved across into the line of the ball. He didn't have to get up close and personal, but at least make the Palace player think twice about the long ball, or not have a clear path to Gayle.

im guessing johnson was vary off the winger who was causing all the trouble

[redmark]

What strikes me from that picture is Palace have four attackers up against our back four, we then have four midfielders against two Palace players, note the gap between our MF and back four and then look at Moses. If he moves toward the middle then he would push Suarez (or Suarez would have moved to cover the ball as opposed to trying to cut out the square ball. Instead he looks like he is just walking back towards our goal effectively doing nothing. As he replaced Sturridge should he not have been more central.
One other point is Stevie's position. When Lucas plays DM i have seen many occasions where he reads where the long ball is heading and places himself in a position to either head the ball clear himself or intercept the ball or make it awkward for the forward behind him to get any sort of meaningful control which usually ends up with one of our defenders getting a chance to clear. I think that both Lucas and Stevie should have dropped back in front of the defense and left the wing backs to deal with the two palace midfielders. As mentioned previously I would probably have switched Stevie and Lucas at half time and given Lucas instructions to sit back and watch so we didn't get caught on the break

Gerrard did exactly that on several occasions, dropping into the space ahead of and between Flanagan/Sakho to head clear, when Palace were focusing long balls down that side for a spell.

I agree with the point about our backline though. It's too stretched, up against four attackers but not picking them up man for man; maintaining shape. You'd like to expect the back four to be tighter at that stage of the game, leaving less space for any knockdown, less space to cover once it's knocked down. A more defensive side, of course, would have had a narrow four with the wide midfielders dropping back into the wider 'fullback' area. In that shot, Coutinho is halfway to doing that (though Flanagan is still wide), but Moses isn't. It's not clear whether those players were sure if they were still playing a diamond or not; and the diamond is rather ineffective against the way Palace were playing at that stage - the fullbacks are exposed and the defence stretched.

[redmark]

I'm not quite sure about that statement. He has the ability to play a lot better than he has this season. The issue is it's been going on for longer than a year and that's the reason it may not improve.

One of the things you do gain by keeping him is we don't have to start concentrating more spending money on a position of secondary importance such as full back. That may change - I said a few weeks ago that Sunderland's approach, and then obviously shown v Chelsea, is something teams will definitely be trying more of next season and full back will become of higher importance than it has been most of this season if teams decide to concentrate more on condensing space in the final third. It's a trade off - problem is that selling Johnson is not going to make us that much money and then we really do have to sign two full backs, instead of other key positions (centre back, base midfielder, 'associating' midfielder/attacker, winger)

Fullback is a vital - and physically very demanding - position if we're playing the diamond, though. The other point (in terms of focusing transfer funds) is that we don't have similarly gaping holes in other areas. We could spend big on a LB and go with Flanagan backed up by Wisdom/McLaughlin next season.

[GrkStav]

Gerrard did exactly that on several occasions, dropping into the space ahead of and between Flanagan/Sakho to head clear, when Palace were focusing long balls down that side for a spell.

I agree with the point about our backline though. It's too stretched, up against four attackers but not picking them up man for man; maintaining shape. You'd like to expect the back four to be tighter at that stage of the game, leaving less space for any knockdown, less space to cover once it's knocked down. A more defensive side, of course, would have had a narrow four with the wide midfielders dropping back into the wider 'fullback' area. In that shot, Coutinho is halfway to doing that (though Flanagan is still wide), but Moses isn't. It's not clear whether those players were sure if they were still playing a diamond or not; and the diamond is rather ineffective against the way Palace were playing at that stage - the fullbacks are exposed and the defence stretched.

Allen has picked up and followed a man on the left flank. Coutinho was 'floating'. He sorta moved in the direction of the player who ended up delivering the diagonal but he basically did nothing substantial to disrupt him and it. Suarez had attempted to put pressure on the immediately preceding passer and pass.

To be perfectly honest, despite Skrtel having an overall excellent game, on that occasion, and despite of it all, I think he just made the wrong choice and ended up  both leaving a man uncovered AND not closing down or challenging the recipient of that pass. The fact that the latter was able to execute a chest pass over Skrtel's head, and perfectly so, is an indication of both the fact that it was an outlier occurrence and that Skrtel just didn't play that right. In my opinion, of course.

[PhaseOfPlay]

Allen has picked up and followed a man on the left flank. Coutinho was 'floating'. He sorta moved in the direction of the player who ended up delivering the diagonal but he basically did nothing substantial to disrupt him and it. Suarez had attempted to put pressure on the immediately preceding passer and pass.

To be perfectly honest, despite Skrtel having an overall excellent game, on that occasion, and despite of it all, I think he just made the wrong choice and ended up  both leaving a man uncovered AND not closing down or challenging the recipient of that pass. The fact that the latter was able to execute a chest pass over Skrtel's head, and perfectly so, is an indication of both the fact that it was an outlier occurrence and that Skrtel just didn't play that right. In my opinion, of course.

The problem is that you are looking at "the last thing that happened", rather than "where the problem occurred". And the problem started with Suarez not getting in front of the ball to disrupt the vision of the player making the long pass. Everything happens after that, but if Suarez (the nearest Liverpool player) was able to get in front of the ball, it might have given the back four the extra second or two to get better organised, or to slide Sakho over to remove the 2v1 on Skrtel.

[steveeastend]

Not that it matters, there are, as my old man would say, more ways to kill a cat than stuffing its arse with strawberries..

Couldn't be said any better mate

Besides that I think that overall the critism towards our players, who took us through the season, be it Johnson, Gerrard, Lucas or Hendo and Flangan (I have been guilty of that) or Skrtel a tad unfair after all as they did their very best to play the way Rodgers asked them too which is a lot to be fair as it's pretty impossible to turn into an english version of Barca in only a couple of months with the talent around. The players pushed beyond their limits but at the end it is what it is, Flanno and Johnson won't turn into Alaba and Dani Alves, Rodgers has to accept that we reached our limits in this last games in terms of what can be expected from our players. They have been incredible, all of them.

[steveeastend]

Suarez was 6 yards away. He should/could have moved across into the line of the ball. He didn't have to get up close and personal, but at least make the Palace player think twice about the long ball, or not have a clear path to Gayle.

Suarez was ill, no?

[PhaseOfPlay]

Suarez was ill, no?

If he was well enough to be on the pitch, he was well enough to get across the field for a distance of 6 yards to close out the long pass. He survived 89 minutes by that point, so he wasn't so ill he couldn't perform a basic defensive duty. But even if he didn't do that, Coutinho should have recognised the situation and stepped up instead. Pulis is a long ball coach - take away the long passes from his game, and he only has set pieces left, in general. So you stop them at source.

This is besides the point, though. The point I want to make is that Skrtel was put in a very bad position in the first place, for something that could have been stopped or slowed down 60 yards away, for the sake of 6 yards. My point is more against those who might think Skrtel was at fault, when Skrtel probably made the least worst of all the errors

[outlaw_nas]

If he was well enough to be on the pitch, he was well enough to get across the field for a distance of 6 yards to close out the long pass. He survived 89 minutes by that point, so he wasn't so ill he couldn't perform a basic defensive duty. But even if he didn't do that, Coutinho should have recognised the situation and stepped up instead. Pulis is a long ball coach - take away the long passes from his game, and he only has set pieces left, in general. So you stop them at source.

This is besides the point, though. The point I want to make is that Skrtel was put in a very bad position in the first place, for something that could have been stopped or slowed down 60 yards away, for the sake of 6 yards. My point is more against those who might think Skrtel was at fault, when Skrtel probably made the least worst of all the errors

love how you see the game and us the general public. learn soo much from coaches like yourself

[killer-heels]

I also think Skrtel was least at fault for the goals. He should have won the header for the last one but he was left 2v1 and he tried to win a ball that he could have won. Maybe the mistake was not winning it but there should have been players sensing the danger and covering. That lack of concentration and anticipation points to Johnson and Sakho, in my humble opinion.

You can bet that in that situation, the likes of Azpilacueta/Ivanovic and Cahill/Terry would have got round.

[steveeastend]

This is besides the point, though. The point I want to make is that Skrtel was put in a very bad position in the first place, for something that could have been stopped or slowed down 60 yards away, for the sake of 6 yards. My point is more against those who might think Skrtel was at fault, when Skrtel probably made the least worst of all the errors

I totally agree, it's something I have been trying to point out a couple of times this season as well, our bad defending as a team at times leaves our defening line exposed...

But to me Suarez was totally fucked, he just couldn't go anymore, not a single bit and the point that I was trying to make is that when you come to your limits, sometimes those 6 yards aren't possible anymore, especially at the end of a long season under a lot of pressure. Physically and mentally we've reached our limits in those two games, Rodgers asked a lot of his players and at some point you have to accept that they are human beings after all in that there is a limit in how much you can learn within one season.

[PhaseOfPlay]

I totally agree, it's something I have been trying to point out a couple of times this season as well, our bad defending as a team at times leaves our defening line exposed...

But to me Suarez was totally fucked, he just couldn't go anymore, not a single bit and the point that I was trying to make is that when you come to your limits, sometimes those 6 yards aren't possible anymore, especially at the end of a long season under a lot of pressure. Physically and mentally we've reached our limits in those two games, Rodgers asked a lot of his players and at some point you have to accept that they are human beings after all in that there is a limit in how much you can learn within one season.

Understood and agreed. That's my point though - for whatever the reason was, that third goal was created by 1) a Palace player having time and space to play the long ball, 2) The backline not recognising this fast enough and dropping to the 18 to kill the space behind them, and keep the play in front of them (and also being caught square as a result), and 3) Skrtel being in a tough situation, being overloaded, and then attacking the ball rather than dropping off and letting Gayle play the ball in front of him rather than behind him (probably one of the few times I would have preferred Skrtel to drop rather than step up, lol).

To summarise - before it became Skrtel's issue, there were a few other issues which made it easier for Palace to score.

[Mutton Geoff]

Might be wrong but i have seen Glen have far worse games than the Palace one is he the Sacrificial lamb? Not saying he was man of the match but i dont think he was as bad as some are making out now.

I would say though the injury for Enrique was a setback but the continued injury and time of recovery for Kelly could be seen as a bigger setback, he was strongly challenging for the RWB position when he picked up that injury.

In the end though surely it was a collective screw up at the Palace, I watch a lot of NHL and its all about momentum,  after their first goal they had all the momentum and we were as a team fading under their pressure, in fact the only surprise for me was they didn't win it 4-3.

[GrkStav]

If he was well enough to be on the pitch, he was well enough to get across the field for a distance of 6 yards to close out the long pass. He survived 89 minutes by that point, so he wasn't so ill he couldn't perform a basic defensive duty. But even if he didn't do that, Coutinho should have recognised the situation and stepped up instead. Pulis is a long ball coach - take away the long passes from his game, and he only has set pieces left, in general. So you stop them at source.

This is besides the point, though. The point I want to make is that Skrtel was put in a very bad position in the first place, for something that could have been stopped or slowed down 60 yards away, for the sake of 6 yards. My point is more against those who might think Skrtel was at fault, when Skrtel probably made the least worst of all the errors

I just wanted to mention that watching the video, rather than looking at the still picture, ought to, in my opinion, convince anyone that Suarez was not at fault for not being able to close down. If anyone should have hustled and gotten closer/disrupted the defender who released the diagonal, it should have been Coutinho. The ball had traveled from the touch-line off a throw-in (conceded by Lucas, who claimed to the ref that it was last touched by a CPFC player, couldn't be sure if he was right) on their left flank back a bit, to the center, out to the right, back to the center, back to the left, and then all the way back to the CPFC defender who ended up delivering the diagonal. Lucas, Moses, and Suarez had done their bit attempting to disrupt and close down in the entire process. After the ball got to the CPFC defender, Coutinho took maybe two and a half steps towards him and effectively/in practice did "nothing" to prevent/disrupt/distract him.

That Skrtel chose (Faustian choice, of course) to step up and attempt to challenge for the ball instead of sticking with the man closest to him at the 18-yard line on this particular occasion was an outlier. His team-mates, notwithstanding what they ought to have anticipated and done, who made a quick educated guess about what he would do and did not anticipate that he would do _that_ cannot really be 'blamed' (at least in an amateur, non-coach, manner).

[GrkStav]

The problem is that you are looking at "the last thing that happened", rather than "where the problem occurred". And the problem started with Suarez not getting in front of the ball to disrupt the vision of the player making the long pass. Everything happens after that, but if Suarez (the nearest Liverpool player) was able to get in front of the ball, it might have given the back four the extra second or two to get better organised, or to slide Sakho over to remove the 2v1 on Skrtel.

You may be right substantively, but no, I did nothing of the sort. I did not look "at the last thing that happened". You've taught me well enough for me not to do that.

You cannot possibly be faulting Suarez, in my humble (I mean it) opinion. That's just unrealistic and borders on the unfair. Suarez appears in the picture to be the closest to the CPFC defender who ended up releasing the diagonal pass, but he had just sprinted towards the player who passed the ball TO that defender and THEN managed to actively get even as close as he did to the eventual passer. Look at Coutinho's movement for the entire series of passes that started with the throw-in.

[PhaseOfPlay]

You may be right substantively, but no, I did nothing of the sort. I did not look "at the last thing that happened". You've taught me well enough for me not to do that.

You cannot possibly be faulting Suarez, in my humble (I mean it) opinion. That's just unrealistic and borders on the unfair. Suarez appears in the picture to be the closest to the CPFC defender who ended up releasing the diagonal pass, but he had just sprinted towards the player who passed the ball TO that defender and THEN managed to actively get even as close as he did to the eventual passer. Look at Coutinho's movement for the entire series of passes that started with the throw-in.

He didn't have to close the Palace player down though - just get into the passing lane and force the Palace player to delay the ball. Coutinho could also have stepped up too, I agree. You're looking at my points as scapegoating, when I'm actually just showing where the breakdown for the goals occurred. Not the players, but the spaces the Palace players had to create that play. Obviously, that goal at the start of the game brings more culpability because the players would have been fresh, but nevertheless - late in the game or not, illness or not, fatigued or not - the goal happened because Palace were given the opportunity to do so because in the dying minutes, Liverpool's fundamentals went by the wayside (hence, I would guess, the comments on "concentration" from Rodgers in the days since).

[GrkStav]

PoP:

First off, and off topic probably, can we get that analysis of our fullback play vs Chelsea that you sorta promised us and which, for whatever reason, never materialized (unless it has and I missed it, in which case, help a brother out and point me to it).

Secondly, maybe I'm over-sensitive to scapegoating. Still, when one part of the team goes at 70% and another at 30% of their respective maximum, I do have a problem with not highlighting the extra 'slacking' by the one who only gave 30%. Yes, indeed, perhaps 85% by the first fellow may have been just enough, even given the same 30% by the second fellow, but the emphasis should be on why the second fellow was at 30% first and foremost, and THEN, perhaps, a mention that 70%, whilst much better than 30%, is still not "good enough".

Anyway, thanks for the explanations and guidance!

[McrRed]

Does anyone else think Sterling going off was the key moment in the game? Hindsight's a beautiful thing but, given the johnson implosion, it would have been interesting if coutinho subbed johnson and sterling went RB...

[irish musicman]

He didn't have to close the Palace player down though - just get into the passing lane and force the Palace player to delay the ball. Coutinho could also have stepped up too, I agree. You're looking at my points as scapegoating, when I'm actually just showing where the breakdown for the goals occurred. Not the players, but the spaces the Palace players had to create that play. Obviously, that goal at the start of the game brings more culpability because the players would have been fresh, but nevertheless - late in the game or not, illness or not, fatigued or not - the goal happened because Palace were given the opportunity to do so because in the dying minutes, Liverpool's fundamentals went by the wayside (hence, I would guess, the comments on "concentration" from Rodgers in the days since).

A question Pop, we had four defenders against four attackers leaving at least two of our midfielders free as the two palace mids are out wide, after the palace sequence of passing GrkStav has described should our midfielders have been deeper ( closer to our back four) I mean how often do you see four on four  when the ball hasn't even left the oppositions half, did we just lose our shape.

[n00bert]

I said it last season but we seem to concede a lot of goals with the ball coming in off the right. It is clear that other teams have identified that side as our point of weakness, as after Flanno's first few games a lot of teams don't seem to fancy going down his side of the field. Flanno, whilst not having the attacking acumen that Johnno has, is a bloody solid defender. Johnson used to be, IMO, a really solid 1 v 1 defender. Nowadays though, he seems to be either too scared to get too close to players because he has lost a bit of pace or it's just a mental thing.

For me, the majority of the Palace attacks that posed a threat came down Johnson's side, but that could just be confirmation bias on my part. I don't want to say that he no longer has a future with us, but I think if we could get an upgrade on him for next season he will need to get use to the idea of playing second fiddle. Maybe that will spur him on? I agree though that he hasn't looked nearly as sharp going forward or defending this year.

I'm not a huge fan of Enrique either but 1 v 1 he's solid and at least he prevents balls coming into the box from the byline. Flanno is of a similar mould and I think with way better distribution that Enrique. So for me, an upgrade at RB is much more important than left back.

Overall I think we did OK against Palace, of course it's incredibly deflating having snatched a draw from the jaws of victory, but I didn't mind that we were looking for more goals. At one stage we looked like we could have easily gotten 6. Then we just shat the bed and in 11 minutes it was 3-3.

What went wrong? I think our ball retention went to shit. We made some poor decisions and were hit on the counter twice. We have on so many occasions executed our game plan to perfection, this game was one that we just lost our concentration. And to be honest, I don't think it has much bearing on the outcome of the title as for me if we don't win it as the loss against Chelsea is the bigger factor. Not that I'm blaming anyone, I'm not, it's just in the grand scheme of things the Palace game wasn't the one that took the title out of our hands.

Ways to improve? Whilst throwing away the win from 3-0 up is a one off capitulation and should be viewed that way, there are no doubt some systemic issues with our defence. I have no idea what is wrong but I think Brendan has hit the nail on the head - a sheer lack of mental toughness and the ability to make the right decisions under extreme pressure. Yes Skrtel missed his header, and that led to a goal but I think that he is our biggest threat from set pieces and wouldn't want to lose his contributions next season. I like Agger but he hasn't played enough this season and I really think Sakho is going to be a world-class defender. So for me a new CB may not be a priority but fullbacks should definitely be.

We are pretty set in the center of midfield so maybe another attacking wide player would be useful? Maybe even a more mature number 10?