Topic: Liverpool's Back 4 and Goalkeeper

[Fordy]

Next week against Huddersfield at home is the perfect match to play Ward. Playing Ward will send out a massive message to the other two keepers.

I want to see some major changes in the defensive unit. Klopp has a full week training - no excuses.

I would consider playing Gini at DM if fit as he is the smartest player out of him, Henderson and Can but in all honest I would drop Henderson no matter what.

Klopp needs to send a message to the football world because at this moment he is acting real soft with players that are letting him down.

I would rather him start with Woodburn, TAA and some other youth players then the current bunch of senior pro let downs.

It's so frustrating!

[Lycan]

We sold our best defender and replaced him with nobody.

And he wasn't good enough, but yes, not bringing in someone to replace him was negligent.

[Fordy]

And he wasn't good enough, but yes, not bringing in someone to replace him was negligent.

Letting Lucas and even Stewart go was a crime also. Both walk into our DM position now if fit and Lucas finished as a CB for us.

What was going through Klopp's head in the summer. He should know you need a top DM to stand a chance in this league.

[GreenLaneRed27]

It’s probably been said but one way to tighten up the defence would be to shift the midfield formation a little
By playing two DM’a a la Rafa who sit in the gaps between CB and FB’a and effectively make it a flexible 4 or 6 man defensive unit. I think Henderson and Gini could fulfil these duties until a proper specialist DM can be brought in...

[Kelvinlfc]

We are in desperate need of a tactical shift, why he proceeds playing 4-3-3 and leaving the defence exposed when we are so desperately fragile at the back is a complete joke. We need to be bringing someone into a 4-2-3-1 with 2 infront of the back 4 with high energy who can press, tackle & pass and then stick Salah, Coutinho & Mane behind a Bobby, Solanke or Sturridge in front. The poor tactics are the only thing thing I hold Klopp accountable for, it is not his fault if Dejan Lovren runs like a madman to try and header something which Le Bron James would not of been able to head clear. Is it his fault he persists on thinking he can coach these mistakes out of him? Irrelevant as now its too late anyway as our back up options are just as bad and anything else would just experimental. (Gomez & Matip).

It must be so fucking frustrating being a Coutinho, Salah, Mane or Firmino (the only 4 players a genuienly rate in this team) and playing good football at one end to just look dook down the pitch at the other end and see the most basic mistakes being made leading to goals. It must just feel like a sense of de ja vu and that is why none of them are to blame for yesterday, I would be completely the same, demoralised, frustrated & fed up.

[Triad]

Also was Klopp a bit naive yesterday by  not sticking a man on Kane.Making sure that whenever he receives the ball he is under a lot of pressure.We allowed him to have the freedom of the park.

[Kelvinlfc]

It’s probably been said but one way to tighten up the defence would be to shift the midfield formation a little
By playing two DM’a a la Rafa who sit in the gaps between CB and FB’a and effectively make it a flexible 4 or 6 man defensive unit. I think Henderson and Gini could fulfil these duties until a proper specialist DM can be brought in...

Snap, good post and what I mentioned at basically the same time.

[vblfc]

It cant be Klopps job to actually find all the players. Of course he needs to have inputs, review and approve the players we buy but they need to be found at the right quality level and Klopp then takes accountability for their successful inclusion and development. I pretty sure it wasn’t Klopps job at Dortmund to source/find players, negotiate their terms etc.
For our defence, thats clearly a key full time job that needs urgent focus and funding.  We cant use January window as an excuse again.
I understand that Edwards and his team have that accountability. I think sometimes we get the impression Klopp is accountable for all this and tend to hang all the blame him fully - His 4th window etc. . (And yes, he is not free from accountability) 
In the end it is a complex competitive business that we have had, at best, mixed success at (and less so with gk and defenders). In reality, to a large extent Klopp and indeed his predecessors can only play with the cards he is dealt.

[Kelvinlfc]

Also was Klopp a bit naive yesterday by  not sticking a man on Kane.Making sure that whenever he receives the ball he is under a lot of pressure.We allowed him to have the freedom of the park.

I believe Lovren was man marking Kane until subbed off, after that it is unclear who had the job.

[Lycan]

What was going through Klopp's head in the summer. He should know you need a top DM to stand a chance in this league.

He's never wanted a specialist DM though. Rodgers was the same. It's something I can't really get my head around, but it's the way they've wanted to go so...


The fact is though, we've never looked a solid defensive unit since the day Javier Mascherano left the club.

[puroresu_kid]

They most frustrating thing for me is this isn't a new problem. Even if you disregard pre Klopp and say its a blank page when Klopp arrives it's still been enough time to recognize the problems and find the solutions.

We haven't even put a band aid over the bleeding let alone surgery. It's a complete mess and no team can confidently move forward when the platform behind it folds like a pack of cards.

[GreenLaneRed27]

Snap, good post and what I mentioned at basically the same time.

Result! Beat you by 24 seconds 👍 point stand tho... particularly away from home - having two sitting in would tighten us up and stop Henderson from running round like a headless chicken not doing particularly much

[RK7]

How many times will Klopp say we'll fix this before he realises he can't with the players he has? He has has 2 years to make us a better team defensively and we are worse now than ever in that time.

He's putting too much faith in these players and is showing a blind spot if he thinks he can train them to do better. He said no player would be in the Liverpool squad if they were not good enough to play for the squad, there is no way that some of those defenders are anywhere near good enough.

[redmark]

We drop Mignolet for good and give karius a chance for the whole of a season to stake a claim for that #1 jersey and go for Gomez and Matip as the main CB's for the rest of the season.

In a nutshell. I've defended both Lovren and Mignolet at times, but Gomez and Karius have the advantage at the moment that they haven't proven themselves to be irredeemably inconsistently awful.

[Simplexity]

I miss lucas.

[Smudge]

They all need bombing out.

Play Ward for the rest of the season.

The fact we are still talking about the defence after 2 years with Klopp in charge is quite frankly, gross mismanagement from the top down.

[GreenLaneRed27]

It cant be Klopps job to actually find all the players. Of course he needs to have inputs, review and approve the players we buy but they need to be found at the right quality level and Klopp then takes accountability for their successful inclusion and development. I pretty sure it wasn’t Klopps job at Dortmund to source/find players, negotiate their terms etc.
For our defence, thats clearly a key full time job that needs urgent focus and funding.  We cant use January window as an excuse again.
I understand that Edwards and his team have that accountability. I think sometimes we get the impression Klopp is accountable for all this and tend to hang all the blame him fully - His 4th window etc. . (And yes, he is not free from accountability) 
In the end it is a complex competitive business that we have had, at best, mixed success at (and less so with gk and defenders). In reality, to a large extent Klopp and indeed his predecessors can only play with the cards he is dealt.

Was the last time we did any sort of decent business in January the coutinho and sturridge (and they were both punts and cheap at the time might I add!!)... we shouldn’t hold out for any defensive reinforcements in January

[Lycan]

I miss lucas.

Says it all when people are missing him. He was way past his best, yet would still probably perform better than the divvies we have at the back.

[redmark]

I believe Lovren was man marking Kane until subbed off, after that it is unclear who had the job.

Nobody was man marking Kane. Kane played on Lovren in the first half hour and switched more to the gap between Can and Gomez after that. Basically, Kane played on our weakness and nervousness in defence quite well (though Gomez handled him better than Lovren did, mostly).

[joekim87]

Lloris looks like a hard keeper to score against. Mignolet (I really don't like bashing our players) does not look hard to score against at all. He has no intimidation factor. Even when we scored, it looked like Salah had to get it inch perfect for him to get it past Lloris. Any shooter against Mignolet looks like they just need to kick it anywhere near our goal to score.

If Lovren was man marking Kane, why was he letting him have so much space. I'm no pro but if my one job is to man mark Kane, I'd let him have the ball halfway and hassle him instead of going for that ridiculous header attempt. Even if he did win it, there's a good chance it falls to a Spurs player who just plays Kane right through anyway. How bad was the decision making there.

I trust in Klopp's system but Mignolet and Lovren are getting harder and harder to defend (pun intended).

[stevied]

Pick 1 goalkeeper and 4 defenders out of whats available tell them they are playing the next 10 games unless injured ,  set up training all week for them and get some cohesion going all this chopping and changing is half the problem, we are stuck with what we have for the next 2 months , its not much point in saying hes not good enough its what we have got

[Always_A_Red]

Our worst defensive start to a season since 1965.   

Guardiola come into city and bought a new keeper as he didn't rate Hart. When he realised, very quickly, that Bravo wasn't good enough, he then went out and bought another keeper in Ederson who is utter class. Klopp needs to be ruthless now. He bought Karius because Mignolet isn't good enough, but Karius hasn't worked out. So go and buy another one and get rid of Mignolet! Don't keep playing the loser! Its not hard, just be ruthless. What's going on with Ward? Why did we stop him going to Huddersfield for 1 year in the PL to not even include him in the squad? Surely he cant be worse than Mignolet? Play him! Give him a chance and again, if he's not good enough, sell him too!

We've known for years that Lovren isn't good enough so go and buy another two class defenders. Don't give me this crap about wanting VVD because we should have got another two on top of him. Klavan isn't good enough and neither is Lovren so we have 1 CB worth talking about in Matip who the jury is still out on. But we need 4 to be competitive across 4 competitions. Gomez has potential but do we really think we're going to challenge for honours with a lad who's got less than a dozen PL starts for us?

We're not ruthless enough from the players on the pitch taking ownership and responsibility through to the manager putting to much trust in these players who have been inconsistent and prone to mistake for 3-4 years now. We need big changes in the playing personnel. Enough is enough. Ultimately its down to Klopp to make them though. If he doesn't, then the buck stops with him because if Guardiola was manager, there's absolutely no fucking chance he would have Mignolet, Moreno, Lovren or Gomez anywhere near his starting back 5.

[GreenLaneRed27]

Pick 1 goalkeeper and 4 defenders out of whats available tell them they are playing the next 10 games unless injured ,  set up training all week for them and get some cohesion going all this chopping and changing is half the problem, we are stuck with what we have for the next 2 months , its not much point in saying hes not good enough its what we have got

100% agree... this chopping and changing every week and between league and champions league is madness and affecting the understanding, cohesion and development as a unit!

[ThePoolMan]

Klopp has got to show zero tolerance now for defensive chaos. It is itime he put the priority where it is needed to be put - on plugging the leaks at the back.

[Phil M]

100% agree... this chopping and changing every week and between league and champions league is madness and affecting the understanding, cohesion and development as a unit!

Mancs have played plenty of changes to their back four, they've conceded 4 goals.

[ThePoolMan]

Mancs have played plenty of changes to their back four, they've conceded 4 goals.

If there is anything Mourinho knows anything about, it is shutting up shop. But at the same time he is often accused of being turgid in his style.  Klopp however is a totally different type of coach. Sorting out the defence is always going to be more difficult with a gegenpressing coach. There is good and bad with every kind of coach.

[Lycan]

There are plenty of sides that can make changes to their back line and can still defend as a unit competently.

It's the lack of communication and leadership at the back that is killing us along with the individual errors. You never see the Keeper screaming for the ball or the CB's constantly talking to each other. Making sure each other are doing their jobs. Pulling each other into line and making sure everyone at the back is picking up their man from corners and set-pieces. None of that seems to be going on at all. Nobody seems to be looking out for anybody else. It's just not good enough.

[surfer. Fuck you generator.]

You could play the same back 5 for 20 games but if you don't drill them precisely, they'll still be loose. They can work some things out between themselves, it will be better at a lower level obviously if players are forced to, but at the top, 1 - 2 seconds reaction time per collective decision, if you're not getting precise work from the staff, no chance.

Under a Pocchetino / Simeone / Benitez setup they can rotate players at the back every game and they would still be tough to score against as a team.

[clinical]

Klopp has got to show zero tolerance now for defensive chaos. It is itime he put the priority where it is needed to be put - on plugging the leaks at the back.

We've conceded 3 more away goals than any other side in the league. It's a horrible horrible stat for us.  Now he's either saying he's a terrible defensive coach or the players aren't good enough.

It's got to be one of those or even a bit of both. He can pass it off as individual mistakes but to me that's because the players aren't to the required standard.

[[new username under construction]]

When I think about Ward I think LOUD! he might not prove to be the best or good enough but man he shouts. Communication is a must. I'm done with Ming and Lovren

[puroresu_kid]

If this was a City, Spurs, Utd or Arsenal we would be laughing at whoever the Manager is for failing to fix such obvious flaws in there sides.

[surfer. Fuck you generator.]

The weird thing is Klopp played a chunk of his career as a defender, according to records. The shit his team gets up to in his position should be driving him stark raving mad, and to decisive action.

[ThePoolMan]

We've conceded 3 more away goals than any other side in the league. It's a horrible horrible stat for us.  Now he's either saying he's a terrible defensive coach or the players aren't good enough.

It's got to be one of those or even a bit of both. He can pass it off as individual mistakes but to me that's because the players aren't to the required standard.

I'm beginning to think it is the former more than the latter. This reminds me so much of all the talk about how Rodgers should get a defensive coach in etc etc. It is beyond ridiculous that even now we still have the same problem.

[Barrowred]

It was mentioned on the full time result thread that 4 of the starting 5 defensive unit were signings made by Rodgers. These are players that contributed to getting the previous manager sacked and they are still getting a game! It's absolutely ridiculous situation to be in.

Mignolet, Lovren and Moreno have been making basic mistakes from day one being at the club and 3 seasons later they are still making the same basic errors. All of the criticism they are receiving is not a knee jerk reaction it's fully justified as a result of constantly making errors that are costing us games.

[clinical]

The weird thing is Klopp played a chunk of his career as a defender, according to records. The shit his team gets up to in his position should be driving him stark raving mad, and to decisive action.

When he first came in it was driving him mad. Now it's excuse after excuse with him passing it off as nothing that isn't easily fixable...

I find the whole thing strange to be honest.

[Lycan]

I'm beginning to think it is the former more than the latter.

Well seeing as he was a CB himself, I think that would be really strange.

[LallanaInPyjamas]

How do you know? Genuine question.

Because we signed him.

I'm sure Klopp rates him. I'm just not convinced he was a top priority for Klopp at all. I think we'd have been in for him earlier and I think he'd have been used more already if that had been the case regardless of an adjustment period. It's not as though we are a pressing machine which he couldn't possibly fit into right now. Salah, a clear top priority, was in from day one. You can bet Keita will be next season too.

I think our director of football in all but name, backed by FSG, saw a classic Moneyball opportunity. A player who we had already missed out on under their ownership. A player John Henry is said to personally admire. A handsome, young, talented English footballer, dating a famous English popstar, with huge commercial value, yet to fulfill his potential.

A boring centre back? The purse strings can be tightened there as far as they are concerned. Little glamour & resale value in that old shtick; good old magic stick Klopp can fix our existing ones. Whereas the vanity project of snatching Oxlade from FSG's personal yard stick Arsenal and rebuilding his career could not be passed up.

[Frank Becton]

If Mignolet isn't good enough - check, Karius isn't good enough - check, why doesn't he give Ward a go, he could just be our best keeper.

Overall the pressure is building on Klopp and rightly so, we are no better defensively that we were under Rodgers in fact if anything we are worse.
The defence and goalkeeper positions need sorting asap, and to be honest it's down to him to sort it out!

Thing is if he couldn't get it sorted in the whole of the summer what chance have we in January, when it's much more difficult getting players in.

[Bend It Like Aurelio]

The most absurd thing was that he drummed out the best centreback in the club - Sakho - despite having such a weak defence. Sakho may have deserved it etc but there is a time and place to make an example of a player and doing it at your own expense is really self-defeating. Then failing to sign a quality replacement really adds the garnish to the dish! Is Klopp not asking to be let down? There is really no excuse for his mistake for a manager of his acumen.

Oh for fucks sake. Sakho the best CB in the club? This is now real revisionist history. I loved Sakho as a man and all he has done for the club inside and outside of it. But even I saw that he was also erratic at times, just like Lovren. They both are capable of great games, but both of them were also error prone. Sakho, for the most part, looks awkward, and he still does now playing for Palace.

Just stop. This whole bringing out the knives thing is just ridiculous. People looking for excuses to bag on their usual pet peeves. But this takes the cake I find.

[The North Bank]

Klopp took a gamble when Van dijk wasn't happening, he went with what he has and hoped he can improve them on the training ground. It's clear the gamble hasn't worked,  he can't slaughter his players now, he needs them for the next few months. It's obvious that he can see his defensive unit are a shambles but if he destroys them in public they won't be getting any better.