Topic: Round Table Discussion - Young Boys

[royhendo]

First: big up the Young Boys fans for their gesture with their banner. It was a classy touch, wasn't it?

Anyway, UEFA Cup based hand wringing aside, there were good and bad points, weren't there?

Joe Cole actually put a price tag on himself... didn't he?

Suso looked great, when we had the ball. For me he has stuff to learn off it.

How do we screw the nut in these situations? They scored two lovely goals, but the second in particular was a stinker of a concession - unforgivable.

If anything, senior players have let us down in these ties. But are we intrinsically too open? How do we tighten up?

Over to you.

[Garstonite]

How do we screw the nut in these situations? They scored two lovely goals, but the second in particular was a stinker of a concession - unforgivable.

If anything, senior players have let us down in these ties. But are we intrinsically too open? How do we tighten up?

The second goal was a bit of a shambles to be honest. You look at the angle they showed on the television from the Anfield Rd end. Shelvey is walking, Gerrard isn't even in the shot. It's a recurring issue too. Our midfield is getting killed on the counter.

Lucas will make a difference, but I think it's more intrinsic than that. I don't see an issue from switching from the "1 holding, 2 in front" to "2 holding, 1 in front" when we have something to protect.





When Sahin missed out on the challenge, we had no chance.

[royhendo]

Join us after the break on 3-2-1...

[Aristotle]

First of all - pure class from the Young Boys fans. For the umpteenth time we see utter class from European side.

For the 3rd season in a row we can't start games well against teams that aren't called Norwich. It feels as if our own players are more in awe of Liverpool playing than the opposition. It has to stop, we're getting punished for it time and time again and it's a real problem.

A few weeks back I wrote this on Joe Cole.

As the now cult classic "Maxi, Maxi Rodriguez runs down the wing for me!" rings 'round the Reebok stadium Liverpool are filled with a sense of joy.  A hopeless Liverpool side, kept alive by Kyrgiakos at the back, manages to overcome Bolton Wanderers away through a brilliant back heel assist from Fernando Torres and the much maligned Maxi Rodriguez drags Liverpool Football Club out of the relegation zone. That dreadful match was 2 years ago to the date. October 31st 2010. After playing Swansea some of you might wonder what the relevance is. Well it's easy. For roughly one hour, Joe Cole can claim to have been part of the game. That game was the last time Liverpool Football Club won a domestic game where Joe Cole started.

2 years later he looks less fit (if possible), his decision making worse and his attitude on the pitch summed up as apathy towards the game, on a level  that should never be seen in relation to the beautiful game, let alone at professional level.
If Andy Carroll doesn't have the attitude to make it at the club it makes you wonder what the hell he did wrong if Joe Cole is earning a starting position. Carroll must've been caught chain smoking, with a pint in hand, weeping for Newcastle whilst rubbing fecal matter over Rodgers' desk in order to get any lower down the pecking order than Joe Cole. I'm sure Cole is a nice guy off the pitch. He seems popular whenever there are glimpses of in-house matters at Melwood. But after implementing a system of meritocracy by putting young players in the starting line up every week, by giving Jones a starting position, throwing Coates and not Carragher into the Merseyside derby et al. This flies in the face of everything. Adorjan has been consistently good with the reserves, as has Ngoo, Coady is the captain, Pacheco has done good but stagnated a bit. If Jerome Sinclair has done enough to warrant a place against WBA, surely at least one of the aforementioned (and I'm sure I'm forgetting a dozen others) deserves a place instead of Joe Cole. I just don't get it. Are we trying to offload him? His embarassing cameos have only gone to tell possible interested parties that he's finished. Feed a lie that he's injured and give the illusion he has something to to come back to. Playing him as we have this season feels a bit like trying to get your opponent to fold and as you raise the stakes, you drop your cards face up, revealing a deuce and a joker.
I'm sorry to derail the discussion like this, I just can't for the life of me understand the decision making behind it. Any conclusion I reach that could excuse it makes my skin crawl.

Pretty damning, and I still stand by it, but for this one time in his Liverpool career I will (well metaphorically speaking) stand up and applaud Joe Cole. An assist and a goal is just about all you can ask from any player. So I will claim full credit for spurring Cole on to his performance tonight.

And on the topic of claiming full credit, I see that Brendan Rodgers has been reading my posts as Nuri Sahin had a very good game playing in the role he did and was much more effective there than in virtually any game since the WBA away game. Gerrard was equally puzzling as ever before. Brilliant in distribution at times, did really well for Cole's goal (initially thought he'd botched it) and then he goes through these spells of headscratching lacking of concentration. Where he gives the ball away and seems too furious with himself for doing so that he forgets to make up for it. Shelvey again is equally as puzzling, his movement is so brilliant but his lack of natural athleticism is staggering at times. When Henderson's cross came I was in disbelief he didn't even get in range to slide at it, there were a few moments when defending where he lost the ball because he wasn't quick enough - yet he somehow managed to track back, catch the player and tackle him. So I can't tell if it's inherently physical, if it's a lack of commitment or a bit of both.

Which nicely segues into the next point. Defending as a team. I'm all for midfielders/wingers as fullbacks but you need aggressive center backs and/or a holding midfielder. Sahin is alright doing it but he's more Pirlo than Redondo, he can't do it on his own. He needs either aggressive center backs, which Carragher hasn't been since 2007 (or rather to anyone who isn't a team mate ). Skrtel for my parts was excellent tonight though. Dodgy deflection aside I would've had him as our MOTM tonight. He was brilliant in covering for Carragher, he was always involved with play and on a lvel that you usually only see from Agger. His pass that led to Shelvey's flick to Henderson was great as you don't usually see him playing those fast, decisive balls up the pitch. He was also very actively involved near the opposition's box and really wanted to get a goal instead of rushing back. As for Wisdom I hope he's alright, the lad's a fucking tank and I'm convinced he wouldn't have let the first goal get past him (but then again he is a defender, Hendo is not). Downing was quite good I thought, I mean nothing outstanding but it was relatively faultless. As for Carragher, well I think I have finally run out of things to say. I've said it all before. How, with all that experience, can you drop off the attacker knowing that their only method of attack for the entire game was long shots and crosses. The infamous 'zone 14' where, just to piss off the anti-stats brigade, metric data tells us that the vast majority of all goals come from. Now if a bunch of basement dwelling nerds (I don't consider myself part of that group - as I live on the 1st floor ) can say that this is the most dangerous area when the opposition has the ball one would hope that a veteran professional of 16 years would pick up on it. Carra's incessant obsession with being beaten for pace has become such a glaring weakness in our defence that without a holding midfielder planted there we will continue to leak goals through there.

As for Reina. I actually thought he was over his hoodoo spell. There were a couple of dodgy shots and crosses that have recently been the kind he slips under his arm or through his legs. As for people saying Jones deserves to start since Reina can't defend those shots. Well I'd rather have Reina organize the defence (which he does much better in my opinion) and play part in the possession football. And after seeing Jones fumble Cabaye's attempt, which was much more preferable to both goals conceded tonight. I don't think it would've made a single bit of difference. It is, as they say, the way it is.

[Yorkykopite]

The most disappointing result of the Rodgers reign so far I'd say. We fucked up when we could have killed the game off and now have another midweek fixture in which a) we can't try the kids b) we may struggle to win.

It wasn't even the kids who let us down tonight. It was a defence that looked like crumbling every time they put pressure on us. Henderson is weak in wide areas of the pitch. We already knew that going forwards. Now we know it going backwards. The way he sauntered back for their first equaliser when it was as clear as day that they had a man over in attack was bizarre. If it was Nuri Sahin doing that you'd say "well he's extremely slow isn't he?". If it was Joe Cole you'd say "well, of course, he's knackered". But Henderson, the man who can run forever, and run fast? There's only one answer to why he dawdled. It's because he's not very bright. 

Meanwhile on the left side of the defence the Downing experiment failed again. I don't want to see him there any more. Play Jack Robinson in these sorts of ties. He can turn both ways. And he's as brave as a lion.

And, finally, I want to see Coates in future, not Carragher. Carragher made one successful challenge all night. He constantly got sucked into the hole and, being too slow to beat his man to the ball, left oceans of space behind him. That Young Boys didn't capitalise more was a source of wonder. Skrtel certianly knew he was in a game, having frequently to mark two people. And, ok, there was practically no hoofing from Jamie this time. But that's because 90 per cent of his passes went back to Pepe in goal who hoofed vicariously on his behalf.

Plus points? Shelvey until he tired. Suso, of course. Gerrard, again. And Assaidi. Joe Cole did reasonably well, but again all those ciggies haven't done him any favours. A couple of times he threw in a Chelsea-type dive when he realised he hadn't got the legs to get round his man. The ref bought them too.

Suarez was poor when he came on and constantly lost the ball, which put us under pressure in the last 10 minutes. By that time, with Shelvey and Sahin tiring, it was always going to leave us a bit open. For the build-up to their second goal Sahin, slower than a snail with a limp, produced two unsuccessful slide tackles in vain attempts to stop midfielders breaking beyond him. Not good.

And, of course, we missed several presentable chances. Henderson, in particular, has to bury those offerings. At the very least try a feint or a dummy. Try some craft - you're meant to be skilful. Don't just rely on the goalie making a mistake.

[Azi]

The most disappointing result of the Rodgers reign so far I'd say. We fucked up when we could have killed the game off and now have another midweek fixture in which a) we can't try the kids b) we may struggle to win.

It wasn't even the kids who let us down tonight. It was a defence that looked like crumbling every time they put pressure on us. Henderson is weak in wide areas of the pitch. We already knew that going forwards. Now we know it going backwards. The way he sauntered back for their first equaliser when it was as clear as day that they had a man over in attack was bizarre. If it was Nuri Sahin doing that you'd say "well he's extremely slow isn't he?". If it was Joe Cole you'd say "well, of course, he's knackered". But Henderson, the man who can run forever, and run fast? There's only one answer to why he dawdled. It's because he's not very bright. 

Meanwhile on the left side of the defence the Downing experiment failed again. I don't want to see him there any more. Play Jack Robinson in these sorts of ties. He can turn both ways. And he's as brave as a lion.

And, finally, I want to see Coates in future, not Carragher. Carragher made one successful challenge all night. He constantly got sucked into the hole and, being too slow to beat his man to the ball, left oceans of space behind him. That Young Boys didn't capitalise more was a source of wonder. Skrtel certianly knew he was in a game, having frequently to mark two people. And, ok, there was practically no hoofing from Jamie this time. But that's because 90 per cent of his passes went back to Pepe in goal who hoofed vicariously on his behalf.

Plus points? Shelvey until he tired. Suso, of course. Gerrard, again. And Assaidi. Joe Cole did reasonably well, but again all those ciggies haven't done him any favours. A couple of times he threw in a Chelsea-type dive when he realised he hadn't got the legs to get round his man. The ref bought them too.

Suarez was poor when he came on and constantly lost the ball, which put us under pressure in the last 10 minutes. By that time, with Shelvey and Sahin tiring, it was always going to leave us a bit open. For the build-up to their second goal Sahin, slower than a snail with a limp, produced two unsuccessful slide tackles in vain attempts to stop midfielders breaking beyond him. Not good.

And, of course, we missed several presentable chances. Henderson, in particular, has to bury those offerings. At the very least try a feint or a dummy. Try some craft - you're meant to be skilful. Don't just rely on the goalie making a mistake.

I actually thought Gerrard was poor, He just seemed to be in two minds last night attack or defend and near the end he wasn’t doing either,I think it might have been wise for Rodgers to swap Gerrard with Henderson at right back when he came on. Against Wigan Henderson was immense in midfield he pressed well and hurried the opponent whereas last night he didn't know where he was on the pitch, but he’s not a right back so that wasn’t exactly his fault, but I’m not too bothered overall Roy said it at the start, this is year zero anything we win or do well in Europa league is a bonus. We’re slowly showing signs of improvements .It’s a fine margin and this season its being shown a couple of decisions here and there and we would be in the top 4 ecstatic give it time. 

[Yorkykopite]

Full stops mate. They're wonderful things!

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

Gerrard being in two minds whether to attack or defend is a problem of the system and the personnel we have in it.  And it has been for much of the season. It will only truly be solved once Lucas returns and it always most obvious when Sahin is playing and Allen is rested.

Sahin, for all his obvious talents cannot currently be relied on to anchor the midfield and Gerrard knows it.

[royhendo]

Boink.

[Crosby Nick]

My Kingdom for a Didi (or a Masch, or a Lucas)...

As you said, that 2nd goal was so avaoidable. Just needed somebody, somewhere to make a cynical foul and regroup. And it wasn't an isolated incident, there were a few spells in the game where they worked it up the pitch effortlessly. How do we stop it? Not so sure, sorry!

All of which is a shame because some of the attacking stuff was lovely. Shelvey dropping in, runners getting beyond him, a couple of quick passes and clear chances created. Simple, great to watch, effective...and then missed!

I do think Gerrard and Suarez were guilty of overdoing it a bit towards the end. And it wasn't an inexperiences dies out there, not to use it as an excuse anyway. Disappointing because so much good work was undone, a real momentum shifter of a late goal to concede.

Gah! Onwards!

[richmiller1]

Ultimately I was pretty impressed with our efforts last night,  although it was once again frustrating to see us undone by repeated failings.

The two key failings? Not taking our chances (again) and Pepe (again) conspicuously failing to get in the way of anything put on target with a bit of venom.

With Reina, I’m not suggesting that second goal was a howler, it was however a continuation of a trend in his shot stopping ability that has gone way past being mildly concerning. Coupled with a particularly flappy display and some uncharacteristically poor distribution it all added up to another poor evening between the sticks. It’s not that he’s a liability in the sense that James and Dudek became, it’s simply that he has become horribly mediocre. It was actually something of a novelty watching a Liverpool keeper keep out the occaisional decent goal bound effort for the few weeks Brad Jones had the shirt.........that’s how bad it has got.

The consistently poor finishing that has seemingly blighted the entire playing staff (Seniors, experienced reserves, even recent youth graduates) for the last 18 months also remains. Henderson, Cole, Suso, Gerrard....... The list is near endless. We could, and should have won that game very comfortably. Again.  Frankly it’s about time the coaching staff got to grips with it.

There are other problems too...... we are still horribly vulnerable on the counter, the decline of Gerrard continues to upset. I could go on.

But despite all the flaws, all the failings, i’m still pretty sanguine this afternoon. Happy even.

I can see things happening, can see us growing.

Some performances last night were genuinely pleasing. Suso, Shelvey.

Some were a step in the right direction. Cole, Sahin (for 60 mins).

Overall, we just looked a threat, even without Suarez, which is something we haven’t been able to say often this year. There was logical movement off the ball and players in possession alert enough to spot the movement. Neat exchanges of one touch football were happening around the opposition’s box as well as our own.

 It felt like a small step forward rather than a pointless exercise. I still shudder when I think of Braga.
Win, loose or draw at Udinese it feels like we’ve taken something from the tournament this year. Its difficult to explain what or why that is. It might just be the faith put in the likes of Suso and Shelvey causing us to look forward rather than backwards. Whatever, it has already been more satisfying than the recent campaigns in this tournament.


As for the questions:

How do we tighten up? Slot Lucas back in. Beyond that and hoping that Pepe finds his mojo again I think we may just have to accept being a bit pourous for a while. I’d like to see an end to this experimentation at full back. Eventually Johnson is going to have to be slotted in at right back and a permanent solution to the left back issue found, whether its Robbo/ Enrique or someone new coming in.

Suso? I thought he was splendid, missed a decent chance but other than that I thought he did hiself proud. Perhaps I was too busy grating my teeth at Assaidi’s off the ball ‘effort’ to spot Suso’s flaws sans ball. He at least seems to have a physical presence without the ball.

Joe Cole? I thought he did very well, even ignoring the goal. Certainly justified his selection. I doubt he has done enough to earn a future here but equally I wouldn’t have a great problem with him as an option from the bench until summer. Whatever sharpness and stamina he may have lost he remains technically very able.

[Paragon]

I thought Joe Cole played really well last night. If he can produce performances like that again this season then he may well have some sort of future at the club. Regardless of that, hopefully he can pick up his form for the remainder of his stay at LFC.

[AM76]

Priority last night should have been to qualify for 2 reasons. Takes the pressure off us when we go to udinese and to give the likes of Gerrard, Suarez, Allen the night off and to keep them at home.

When the game went 2-1, we should have shut up shop and just settled for the win. There was no need for us to press for the third as at that point we had already qualified. You'd like to think that in this type of scenario, the players should have enough game intelligence to know this. Could end up biting us on the arse when we go to Italy.  One for the lesson book this game to look back on and hopefully learn from

[Bangin Them In]

With kids we will take steps forward, but they will also have set backs and problems, they will not just improve in a straight line upwards. Sterling has, but I do believe he is an exceptional talent. Some of these European games are examples of this.

Gerrard is in two minds whether to entrust the screening of the back 4 or 3 to Sahin/Shelvey/Assaidi et al when he plays or bomb on, and ends up sometimes doing neither, and he hasn't the legs to do both anymore. A second anchoring specialist with Lucas is even more a necessity than a striker in my opinion now, as we are shipping as many goals as we are scoring when we are so open to counters it is untrue sometimes. Suarez thrives on games, games, games and hates not playing, whatever game it is.

But as has been said before, I have a real feeling we are moving forward, onwards and upwards.

[Funky_Gibbons]

I don’t recall a performance like that for a long time in which we were so good on the ball but so poor of it. None of the players, especially those in midfield, didn’t seem to have inclination to track runners, get behind the ball, tackle or block. Allen has done a good job of replacing the injured Lucas in the league matches but last night’s game was a perfect illustration of our lack of depth in this very important position. 

Personally I think if Wisdom hadn’t gone off (was he injured by the way?) we wouldn’t have conceded either of those goals as Wisdom would have defended the first goal better while Henderson would have offered the defence better protection for the second.

Suso and Cole seemed to strike up a really good understanding between them and set each other up on a few occasions. What I liked about Cole was his eagerness to “make use of the space created by the number 9” as Rodger’s would say. Rather than staying out wide he was drifting into central positions where he could cause more damage by setting up chances or having a shot. If we can find someone in the summer that can do the same job but more consistently, is younger, has a pair of lungs, and won’t ask for £100k a week then we would have some front three.

As much as we can blame the defence and midfield for the goals we conceded we shouldn’t forget that we missed some real gilt-edged opportunities. I remember when Rodger’s took over someone asked when was the last time we played a forward in behind the defence for a one-on-one; well last night I don’t think I recall seeing so many one-on-ones in a single game. Suso, Henderson and Cole all missed the type of chance that should be bread and butter at this level while Cole also missed a good opportunity from a corner.

If we put one of those chances away then perhaps we don’t panic towards the end of the game and drop deep and invite pressure. I would like to say though that some of the football we played last night was excellent. The one touch passing and movement off the ball was a joy to watch.   

[gerrardlfc]

I'm worried about our inability to see out a football match, why were all our midfield players bombing forward? The players and manager need to both take responsibility, in every game this season i can't remember the defence having proper cover infront of them, the opposition always seem to have space in front of our defence. Hopefully this improves when Lucas comes back. Maybe it will be a blessing in disguise if we go out of the Europa league i just think our squad is to thin to compete seriously for the 4th spot and the FA Cup. I think the aim this season has to be all out assault on 4th place because it is up for grab this year, with potentially 6 teams fighting for it.

[Tony19:6]

Didnt see all of it but from what I saw I thought the lads played ok.

Cole had his best game in a red shirt and should be considered for at least a slot on the bench for Sunday given the options available to us. Ok he may not have a long term future but if he can contribute then it seems silly not to.

Gerrard played ok in my opinion, nicely weighted ball to Cole for the 2nd and a I recall one long ball in the 2nd to Suarez which would have left him through on goal only for a last minute interception. No doubt it will go down as a ball given away to some of the bores on here...

Negatives Reina coudnt have done anything with the goals but looked a bit flappy once or twice. Still No1 in my opinion.

Dont know what Henderson was doing for their 1st ? I know he wasnt playing in his natural position but I thought he could have done better, at the very least prevent the lad getting a clear shot in.

Overall and given the makeshift nature of the side, thought we controlled the game in the main and should have won...

[gorwar61]

I am getting sick of hearing, We controlled the game, but......

We control games when we win with a clean sheet.

We are always conceding late goals in Europe, really need to tighten up the midfield, hopefully Lucas will put a stop to all the lose balls in front of the defence.

[Carlos: Very Kickable]

I wrote 12 long paragraphs about last night's match, read it back and deleted it all so i could distill things down into a few sentences:

1. Cole, Sahin, Downing, Carragher = good chance of us not winning the match. I am now wondering whether i should have gone with that realisation to boost my betfair account as i need the money due to moving house. I've never bet against us to win but the way they walked through our team from the kickoff had me scrabbling for my phone.

2. We are still not playing as a team, after 5 months of coaching. It is simply too easy for our opponents to press our backline and either isolate them or make them panic. Even when we do play it out it is, most of the time, a close run thing and you can see it makes our players nervous. Notably, this is not something we can easily to to THEIR team who looked much more assured . The reason, as far as i can see is that we are still not working anywhere near hard enough to support the man on the ball. When Wisdom was getting isolated at fullback he needed two or three easy options to pass to and we didn't give them to him.

3. When we do get the ball we are not being courageous enough in drawing the opposition out of their positions before we pass it. The player who does this best is Joe Allen (who had a well earned rest yesterday), one of the worst players with this skill is Gerrard. He's not a pass and move player and his ability to exhort the team to victory is limited with our new style which relies on patience over high tempo counterattacking. He has not provided the 35 million pounds of footballer we would have got for him three four years ago.

4. Sahin - major disappointment for me. He simply hasn't reproduced the form he is capable of apart from one game. Part of it is his fault - he need to increase his workrate and his mobility. Part of the reason is because the rest of the team is not working hard enough to run and give him options that will suit his quarterbacking game. That might enrage all the hipsters who watched his highlights on Trans World Sport from three years ago but it's true nevertheless. Currently, he does not provide enough tension through the middle of our field to impose ourselves and we dont have the personnel to use his passing range.

5. "Waiting for Lucas to come back" is not a strategy otherwise 80% of RAWK could apply for the manager's job.   

6. Suso and Shelvey played well despite their mistakes which will decrease with experience. It was good to see players bearing down on goal and Shelvey got his reward just as Enrique did last week.
Joe Cole, for all the criticism I have had for him since he signed, grew into the game and I was imoressed with his commitment to close the opposition and win the ball.

7. I felt that the manager would be right to feel disappointed as i felt the players let us down last night. They need to start demonstarting the character required to play this system properly. It's really not that complicated. Pass-and-move, support the man on the ball unless he belongs to the other team in which case aggrerssively take the ball off him, take your chances when they come up, be professional with the officials. Rinse and repeat.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Very, very disappointing game for me. I'd watched the Udinese game earlier and I knew that this game was UEFA league progression on a plate. Young Boys are no mugs and it was clear they would be confident in this tie given that they had already proven that scoring against us was going to be no problem for them at all.

It was dismay bordering on anger that the teamsheet was received. Plenty of people upon seeing it felt that it was a poor team for the job and although giving youngsters and fringe players a go this was a 'must win'.

The team looked the same as normal. Some very, very nice little moves all over the park, some confidence and yet the feeling that we could concede at any time. So it proved once again. The introduction of Gerrard was the beginning of watching another game slip away from us at Anfield. Although we got ahead not many people at the ground seemed confident it would stay that way. There was a feeling of foreboding and quizzical gestures at the managers decisions. Either it was that he wasn't that bothered or felt that he had bigger fish to fry at the weekend.

Either way no one was surprised when the equaliser came. Another game gone. Another bad result. Another bad result made worse because it so clearly should have been a better team selected and we made our same old mistakes. We looked all over the place to me. A real Jeckyl and Hide of a football team. So, so much great about the team and so, so much wrong with the team.

The resignation at the pub afterwards was the same as the resignation that everyone plodded down to Anfield. Fortress Anfield? More like a sandcastle Anfield with the tide rolling in.

It has to improve one day, but I'm not holding out much hope that day will be soon. The players have to play. The manager has to pick the right team for the job.

[Tony19:6]

I am getting sick of hearing, We controlled the game, but......

We control games when we win with a clean sheet.

We are always conceding late goals in Europe, really need to tighten up the midfield, hopefully Lucas will put a stop to all the lose balls in front of the defence.

We controlled it in the main, meaning for the most part (which we did) with a few sloppy moments which cost us...

Im not sure that Lucas will be the panacea a lot of people seem to think? hopefully he will get back to the form of 2010/11 and improve us as a squad.

[bleedsred1978]

Think bringing Sterling on when we were ahead was a bad decision. Got the feeling that Cole was about to come off before he scored and Brendan just went ahead with the change.

We know we all want to see attacking football but closing out a game is an art in itself and sometimes discretion is the better part of valour. BR rightly said we were niave towards the end of the game but he could have done something himself too to promote that sense of restrict and contain with his last sub.

He instead gave the signal to push on in my opinion with that change and the team paid for it. It's no big deal and its easy after the fact i suppose but  i hope he learns as well as the team from that late capitulation.

[Red_Isle_Chap]

That game was a bastard, it really was. We started like a team that hadn't really played together competatively (which it hadn't), nearly paid the price after 10 seconds, and again not long after, but then we grew into the game. Joe Cole had a decent first half where he finally showed that he can, at times, play football. Assaidi on the other side looked lively and Shelvey and Suso looked older than their ineperienced years.

I'll be honest, I think Yorky's been harsh on Henderson in his post. The whole change was bizarre, Gerrard on for Wisdom (who was playing well before he got the hook) and Henderson to right back. It's not Henderson's natural position and i'm not shocked that defensively he looked a bit at odds out there. Agree that he should have scored his chance though.

I thought both our goals were top class, and i think both of theirs were as well. Our defending from the midfield for their second though was beyond woeful, it really was.

Alas, we're our own worst enemies again. If both Suso and Henderson don't fluff their lines, we're in 3-0 up at half time and cruising through to the next round. As it is, we've got a big, big game at Udinese now and the lineup will be interesting.

The reason i say that is, yesterday one of our big, big problems was the midfield. Both the return of Lucas to full fitness and some cover for him in Jan simply cannot come quick enough. Sahin was quietly effective last night. Not offering much at all going forward, but not bad at the back. Gerrard however had an odd, odd game. From the moment he came on, he didn't once look like he even got into first gear. He sauntered through that game and, despite the odd flashes of brilliance, it wasn't enough. I know that he was probably trying to save himself for the weekend a bit, but at times the lack of effort was criminal, and the midfield got worse when Suarez came on and Shelvey moved back. We can't play Gerrard and Shelvey togehter, sorry but we just can't. The lack of defensive discipline between them means that only 1 should be on at a time. As has been mentioned, for Young Boys second, both of them were no where to be found, and at that stage of the game, with a slender lead, that's fucking criminal.

Same up top. 2 good goals, but second half nothing stuck at all and a large problem was Suarez. At times we looked like we never wanted to shoot and bar the goal, every time we lost posession.

I dunno what the answer is ( after Lucas), but there needs to be better midfield play. Also didn't help with our back line so utterly deep with the aging and fairly ineffective Carra and another abject display from Downing at LB. To be honest, is anyone that surprised when you look at our back 4 and you've got a converted winger at LB, a center mid at RB and a 34 year old in center of defence, that we leak goals?

We need to be more clinical all over the pitch, not just in finishing, but in midfield and defence. At the moment, the games are getting a bit "same old same old" because we can all see the problems. I assume that Rogers can as well and I'll be honest, if he's not backed in Jan to fix the problems, the season will be long.

But there are positives! We just need to build.

[richmond-red]

Firstly a big round of applause for the Young Boys fans - that marvellous banner and the way they supported their team throughout was superb.
Secondly the Young Boys team itself. When the draw was announced I believed they would be the whipping boys of this group and qualification could be down to the teams who put most goals past them. How wrong was I?
As for Liverpool, I  think the deficiencies have been pointed out very clearly by several other posters. I was dismayed by the original team selection - Downing at left-back, Cole anywhere and no natural striker - but was pleasantly surprised by Cole's overall performance.  The 3rd. substitution was a bit of a mystery for me, as well. At that point we were leading and had effectively qualified.  Cole, Shelvey and Assaidi all looked to be tiring badly so no problems with who was taken off. Why not bring on Allen and shore up the midfield? Or Enrique to be a natural left-back and push Downing forward? Instead, for the last 15 mins we have 2 players out of position in crucial defensive areas and not a lot of cover for any of our defence from our midfielders.

[Kop10]

Unfortunately we are more susceptible than most against sides with good technical ability that probe patiently with the ball. We get opened up through the middle way too much. That's exactly what Swansea will do as well.

I would have replaced Joe Cole with Enrique to come in at LB and moved downing further up. It sends out a message of closing the game out as well.

[Crosby Nick]

Just a thought on that final substitution. I think Sterling was preparing to come on with score still at 1-1. Perhaps we should have been more ruthless and changed approach when we did score. However, the way the midfield deserted their posts there’s a good chance we may have conceded anyway, even if we had brought on a defensive minded player like Enrique. Then would we be moaning that the negative substitution sent out the wrong signals?!

[Gnurglan]

First: big up the Young Boys fans for their gesture with their banner. It was a classy touch, wasn't it?

Anyway, UEFA Cup based hand wringing aside, there were good and bad points, weren't there?

Joe Cole actually put a price tag on himself... didn't he?

Suso looked great, when we had the ball. For me he has stuff to learn off it.

How do we screw the nut in these situations? They scored two lovely goals, but the second in particular was a stinker of a concession - unforgivable.

If anything, senior players have let us down in these ties. But are we intrinsically too open? How do we tighten up?

Over to you.

Class banner, that's for sure.

Cole deserves credit. 1+1 is good in any game. He's been out for a while, but came back in and did what we needed him to do. Well done!

When it comes to the goals we conceded, I'll just say those things happen. What I object to is the way we set up the team + subs. 2-5-10-1 including all players. Yes, ten midfielders and one striker. And our only striker was on the bench. How is that mix even possible? It's all wrong and it's plain obvious. We can try every excuse we want, we should have ensured we had a better mix of players in there. If there's ever a time to have a young striker on the bench, yesterday was it.

I also feel I need to raise my concern with Sterling again. We're playing him too much. IMO he shouldn't even have been included in the squad yesterday. And we could easily have brought Enrique on. Enrique or Downing for the wing? I understand Sterling is a special talent, but he's already taken part in 20 senior games this season. Everything is going in 200 mph for him and we seem to want things to go even quicker. Normally managers are much more protective with starlets like him and for a good reason. Rodgers gambles on him for the short term.

We have this strange thing going on, where we push some youngsters very hard, even at the expense of senior players. And then we have someone like Coates, who isn't used much at all, even though he's got a fair bit of international experience. So we overplay some and underplay others. A lot. I don't understand that. Pacheco? Yesil? Morgan? If we are so eager to play young players, why not have one of them on the bench ahead of Sterling? Just look at the number of options for midfield vs up front...

For me those are pretty basic things. All you need for that observation is a quick look at the team sheet. We lack balance in the side, but we do little to correct it. We almost wreck it on purpose. That can't be right. I'm sorry, but Rodgers needs to have a look in the mirror, not just claim the players needed to this or that. We end up with so many players in new positions and we learn very little from it. It could however be one reason we make those mistakes.

[itsgunnabebarnes!]

When you have a specific weakness in the team result are going to be inconsistent. Some teams have a cronic defence, some a shit attack and us is our midfield . Every time possession breaks down we are wide open. It's a bigger problem that Lucas can solve. There seems a complete lack of understanding of the roles of each player. Often Gerrard and sahin try and do the same thing. I'm struggling to see the benefits of both starting . Rodgers needs to address this as its being criminal at times.

[Red_Isle_Chap]

Just a thought on that final substitution. I think Sterling was preparing to come on with score still at 1-1. Perhaps we should have been more ruthless and changed approach when we did score. However, the way the midfield deserted their posts there’s a good chance we may have conceded anyway, even if we had brought on a defensive minded player like Enrique. Then would we be moaning that the negative substitution sent out the wrong signals?!

We all boss managers in hindsight though aren't we mate I think the switch was wrong, I actually don't think taking Cole off was the right move. Enrique for Assaidi would have been better, seeing as Cole had unlocked their defense a fair amount, i think they were a bit worried about him.

But there we go, these things are easy to spot after the game. Rogers made a change, it didn't work. If anyone thinks our subs were bad, you should have seen Spurs yesterday.

[Jimmy Davies]

Young Boys fans were a massive credit to their country and not only their team last night. Happened to run into quite a lot of them and they were so made up just be at Anfield and watching their team step onto the same pitch as us! Really made up for them and if we had to drop points to any side, I don't mind it being to them and their support. Quality, plus they brought 2,500, that is huge for an away Europa League game!

The game itself: Joe Cole, as a highlights package looked relatively sharp and creative, and he took his goal well whilst providing a very good assist for Shelvey. His allround game is still piss poor though, very little outside of the goals, which I appreciate is what we're all here for, but he just doesn't bring enough to the game, even these Europa games. His game was all based around flair and he just doesn't have any anymore.

However he may have put a price tag on himself now yes. Personally though I'd just like to see him shifted for free but he's gonna have to take a huge pay cut for this and has any footballer ever done this? (Ronaldo to Corinthians probably the only decent example?)

Shelvey was impressive, he's developing well and the good aspects about him are the fact he manages to get himself in goal scoring positions constantly. His finishing is improving gradually as we have saw this season.

Sterling shouldn't have been near the side last night. Should be saving the boy for the Premier League at the moment. He's too young to do too much really, and lets be honest the EPL is where we need him most.

All in all though, dissapointing night, should really have given ourselves a night off at Udinese. Ridiculous that so many are caught ahead of the ball in the 88th minute whilst defending a one goal lead. Fucking horrendously stupid football.

[Funky_Gibbons]

When you have a specific weakness in the team result are going to be inconsistent. Some teams have a cronic defence, some a shit attack and us is our midfield . Every time possession breaks down we are wide open. It's a bigger problem that Lucas can solve. There seems a complete lack of understanding of the roles of each player. Often Gerrard and sahin try and do the same thing. I'm struggling to see the benefits of both starting . Rodgers needs to address this as its being criminal at times.

If you look at our mid-fielders we have some exceptional players who would undoubtedly make it into a lot of teams in the Premier League.

The problem is they all have their individual talents but we don't have enough who want to do the dirty, boring things like defend, get goal-side and tackle. Too many of them want to play the pretty football, set-up goals or take shots. Watching our mid-fielders trickling back when they scored their second was embarrassing.

Just a thought on that final substitution. I think Sterling was preparing to come on with score still at 1-1. Perhaps we should have been more ruthless and changed approach when we did score. However, the way the midfield deserted their posts there’s a good chance we may have conceded anyway, even if we had brought on a defensive minded player like Enrique. Then would we be moaning that the negative substitution sent out the wrong signals?!

This is one of those ones that in hindsight we all know what Rodger's should have done. I wonder how many people at the time were actually calling for a more defensive substitution.

Brining on a pacey forward when the opposition are chasing an equaliser is a pretty standard change. It gives you a good chance to counter their attack and finish the game off.

[mtred1984]

Im not laying into the lad here, but at 32 years of age you think steven gerrard would have the experience to not go bombing forwardon 88mins and with a 2-1 lead. I was fucking absolutely fuming with him last night. Fair dos, shelvey and sahin didnt do enough getting back, but for me steven should be thinking of getting a resut at that time of the game and of held a deeper position incase of a counter attack, which duly happened

[AM76]

Im not laying into the lad here, but at 32 years of age you think steven gerrard would have the experience to not go bombing forwardon 88mins and with a 2-1 lead. I was fucking absolutely fuming with him last night. Fair dos, shelvey and sahin didnt do enough getting back, but for me steven should be thinking of getting a resut at that time of the game and of held a deeper position incase of a counter attack, which duly happened

Correct!!!  Like I said in my post further up the page, the players, especially the senior players should have known to just see out the game.  Might make the last 15 or so minutes boring, but we go through and qualify and could travel to Italy to have a night off, but instead, now we have to go there and get a result.

[Mutton Geoff]

Taking Henderson from Central Midfield when we had Enrique on the bench was a no brainer for me and perhaps cost us, but we did enough to win it and as usual did not close up games and paid for it, did anyone else see that second one for them coming after we got so sloppy all around the pitch in the last ten minutes.

[mtred1984]

Who would of gone right back then geoff? Enrique?

For me, we had Coates on the bench, we could of replaced him for wisdom, had skrtel or carra moved to right back or even moved to a 3-5-2 formation with henderson right wing back.

[Mutton Geoff]

Who would of gone right back then geoff? Enrique?

For me, we had Coates on the bench, we could of replaced him for wisdom, had skrtel or carra moved to right back or even moved to a 3-5-2 formation with henderson right wing back.

no Downing he can play either flank and Enrique on the left, but i am not the manager!

[canadianscraggledog]

Very disappointing to draw as we should have put that game to bed.

-some poor finishing again, Cole, Hendo, Suso all could have scored.

-Gerrard for Wisdom was an odd move. I would have moved  Enrique to LB and Downing to RB. Hendo was the only really mobile CM and we were too soft in the middle. Hendo would have provided better cover in the middle of the park IMHO and was wasted at RB.

-Congrats to Cole. His best game in a red shirt. He may lack stamina but did make several good runs and got into good positions. He ran about as much as he can and overall his technical skills and passing were actually very good. He could be our super sub for the rest of the season if we can't shift him in Jan.

-Not sure why Carra started at all. His lack of pace left us so open and YB were easily able to get the ball into the final 1/3 into dangerous positions. This was also compounded by Hendo at RB and only Sahin/Gerrard in the middle. I would have used Coates/Skrtel from the start.

-Around the 81st minute, once we scored the 2nd, I really was scratching my head at why Sterling was still coming on for Cole. I would have brought on Enrique and pushed Downing to LM or even kept Enrique as a LWB for more defensive coverage. Or atlernatively brought Coates for Carra.

Their 1st goal was due to Hendo trotting back too casually but still, the shot was brilliant from a pretty tight angle.

Their 2nd goal was basically the CM's let them run through us and Carra stood off and did not cut down the angle.

Honestly feel we would have won had Hendo stayed in CM and/or Coates played instead of Carra.

I feel that BR made some tactical mistakes in this game and Gerrard/Sahin/Shelvey cannot be the 3 in the middle. You need at least one of Hendo/Allen/Lucas there to balance it out and protect the defense.

Don't see why some are slagging Downing, thought he had a solid if unspectacular game and really made no mistakes and passed well and moved the ball upfield quickly.

But I really liked our movement and attacking play, even without Suarez we seemed dangerous.

YNWA

[PhaseOfPlay]

no Downing he can play either flank and Enrique on the left, but i am not the manager!

Henderson at right back was a perfectly acceptable change to make - he's right footed, so when YB are attacking down the line he can force them outside and tackle off his back foot. If we put a left footer there, just like when Johnson plays on the left, he either has to show the player inside, which puts the central defenders under pressure, or he has to lunge into the tackle, which is one of the worst things a defender can do, as it throws them off balance and gives the attacker a yard of space. So it made sense, even if it was not the PERFECT fit in isolation. Add in the need for some sort of pace, some sort of addition to the attack when possible, and it makes more sense - Carra doesn't have the pace, and is not really an attacking fullback; added to that, Cole is not a defensive winger, so YB would have had free reign in the space between Cole and Carra, if Carra was played there. The interesting idea would have been Coates, as either the right back or as the central defender with Skrtel pushed wide. But again, the same problems of athleticism and balance exist - a gap gets created between the FB and the RW that Bobadilla would have loved exploiting. So taken in context, Henderson was a logical choice, with Gerrard coming on. The frist goal we conceded was a loss of concentration at the back post, which is, statistically, where most goals are scored. This is why intelligent fullbacks are vital. Wisdom has had a few of these lapses too, as has any other fullback who isn't Maldini, Cole, Johnson or Arbeloa. The second goal came through the middle, so the fullback change wasn't the issue here, and as well as that, it was a perfect storm that on any other day, with an extra touch or if Carra isn't halted momentarily, Reina would have been in perfect position to save the shot and we'd be talking about resting the players for Udinese, how Cole had a great game, and how Reina was back to form with his magnificent save. As it was, YB scored from a goal they will be hard pressed to score again in a hurry, because the conditions for the shot were perfect for YB. How they got into that position is up for question, for sure - but the mistakes weren't tactical - they were mental; players who couldn't control their impulses long enough to see out the game. That's a function of their personalities, not the tactics employed.

(Incidentally, YB had most of their attacks on Downing's side, not Henderson's. If they identified a weakspot - although I suspect it was more to do with Zarate's positioning and them playing through him a lot - then it certainly wasn't Henderson)

[mtred1984]

no Downing he can play either flank and Enrique on the left, but i am not the manager!

But that would of made no sense whatsoever. Yes downing has played on the right, as a right winger, but moving him to right back to defend is a different kettle of fish. Hes only just starting making appearences at left back, on his natural foot and you want the manager to put him on his weaker side.

I am not having a go at you by the way mate, i just wanted to no your reasoning like

[mtred1984]

Henderson at right back was a perfectly acceptable change to make - he's right footed, so when YB are attacking down the line he can force them outside and tackle off his back foot. If we put a left footer there, just like when Johnson plays on the left, he either has to show the player inside, which puts the central defenders under pressure, or he has to lunge into the tackle, which is one of the worst things a defender can do, as it throws them off balance and gives the attacker a yard of space. So it made sense, even if it was not the PERFECT fit in isolation. Add in the need for some sort of pace, some sort of addition to the attack when possible, and it makes more sense - Carra doesn't have the pace, and is not really an attacking fullback; added to that, Cole is not a defensive winger, so YB would have had free reign in the space between Cole and Carra, if Carra was played there. The interesting idea would have been Coates, as either the right back or as the central defender with Skrtel pushed wide. But again, the same problems of athleticism and balance exist - a gap gets created between the FB and the RW that Bobadilla would have loved exploiting. So taken in context, Henderson was a logical choice, with Gerrard coming on. The frist goal we conceded was a loss of concentration at the back post, which is, statistically, where most goals are scored. This is why intelligent fullbacks are vital. Wisdom has had a few of these lapses too, as has any other fullback who isn't Maldini, Cole, Johnson or Arbeloa. The second goal came through the middle, so the fullback change wasn't the issue here, and as well as that, it was a perfect storm that on any other day, with an extra touch or if Carra isn't halted momentarily, Reina would have been in perfect position to save the shot and we'd be talking about resting the players for Udinese, how Cole had a great game, and how Reina was back to form with his magnificent save. As it was, YB scored from a goal they will be hard pressed to score again in a hurry, because the conditions for the shot were perfect for YB. How they got into that position is up for question, for sure - but the mistakes weren't tactical - they were mental; players who couldn't control their impulses long enough to see out the game. That's a function of their personalities, not the tactics employed.

(Incidentally, YB had most of their attacks on Downing's side, not Henderson's. If they identified a weakspot - although I suspect it was more to do with Zarate's positioning and them playing through him a lot - then it certainly wasn't Henderson)

That wouldnt of happened if we had went to 3 at the back