Author Topic: Liverpool 2-1 West Ham: a view on tactics  (Read 13568 times)

Offline Consigliere

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Liverpool 2-1 West Ham: a view on tactics
« on: August 28, 2006, 09:21:48 pm »
Liverpool kicked off their first home league game of the season against last season’s FA Cup Finalists. Aside from Kuyt’s debut, one of the most interesting aspects of the game was perhaps the way in which Liverpool set themselves out tactically, to play with a particularly open, attacking formation.

Pennant started wide on the right, Garcia notionally on the left but as is usual with his style of play, he had licence to roam anywhere across the front line. Garcia has sometimes been described as an attacking midfielder or winger, but he’s a difficult player to pigeonhole – he is perhaps more of a withdrawn forward who's natural game is to play in a free role. Gerrard – who on more than one occasion has described himself as an ‘attacking midfielder’ - played alongside Xabi Alonso in the centre of midfield. With three forwards, one winger, and an attacking midfielder, this was a Liverpool team brimming with attacking intent.

Such an adventurous formation was no doubt brought about by a number of factors. The enforced absence of Sissoko with his physical dominance, ground coverage and ball winning ability was undoubtedly a factor. But there was perhaps also the need to give the players that had been signed during the summer an opportunity to play and show what they could do.

It is also unlikely that it would have escaped Benitez’s attention that when Liverpool last played West Ham, we struggled to break them down. Were it not for a couple of exceptional strikes from Gerrard - as well an assist - it would have almost certainly have been the team from East London lifting the FA Cup rather than the one from Merseyside. Given that West Ham play an open, attacking game, this was always going to make for an interesting and exciting match.

Width, wingers, pace, movement, and attacking momentum are all things that excite the crowd. It’s not difficult to agree that a team that sets itself out in such a manner stretches the opposition, and creates space in which others can play. The attacking benefits are obvious – as Kevin Keegan’s Newcastle’s and Ossie Ardiles’ Tottenham will testify. It was interesting hearing Mark Lawrenson’s comments on how effective Liverpool were in moving the ball across the pitch at pace with players interchanging positions, particularly for Crouch’s goal, where Pennant found himself on the left before spraying the ball to Gerrard who in turn found Garcia in a centre forward’s position.

However, with any strength there comes a weakness and that was apparent when West Ham had the ball and were on the attack. It was surprising how Liverpool set out their shape when West Ham had the ball in the middle of pitch. More often than not, Liverpool seemed to be outnumbered in central midfield with both Alonso and Gerrard coming up against 3 or 4 West Ham players who could play a quick, short interchange of passes leaving Gerrard and Alonso to chase shadows.

It’s worth watching the West Ham goal again, because although you could say that Aurelio was out of position, the fact is, West Ham played straight through our centre midfield before feeding the ball out wide to Zamora. Exactly the same thing happened a few minutes later when Harewood missed a gilt edged chance. On a couple of other occasions, West Ham were left to run directly at the Liverpool centre backs with no midfield cover in front of them. You can be the greatest centre back in the world but if you have no midfield cover in front of you, you really do have your work cut out. If Carragher had been playing, I have no doubt that he would have given the midfield players the hairdryer treatment at half-time. There's no reason why you can't have an effective midfield two that can stop the ball being played through them - the classic example is Viera and Petit - but Alonso and Gerrard simply aren't the type players that can provide that type of defensive security.
   
If you look at any of Martin O’Neil’s teams, the way that they set themselves out in terms of the shape of their team when the opposition have the ball is very apparent. Look at your own half of the pitch, draw a smaller rectangle within it, and put 10 players in it in a 4-5-1 formation, each with an area of the rectangle to close down.  It’s extremely difficult for the opposition to break down or play through such a compact “box” formation. Liverpool did something very similar during the Houllier era and Houllier’s Liverpool side could hardly be described as one that was easy to break down. Against West Ham, Liverpool were far too open with Garcia and Pennant staying out wide, when they should have been tucking into midfield to help out Gerrard and Alonso. Compress the space and it’s much more difficult for the opposition to play through you. I’ve no doubt that it’s something that Benitez and the coaching staff will want work on.

© Consigliere 2006

Offline Gnurglan

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Re: Liverpool -v- West Ham - a view on tactics
« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2006, 09:44:01 pm »
I think that's the worry when you play Alonso-Gerrard in CM and in particular when you have two attacking wide midfielders.

Generally I believe that you should look at players in combinations of two or three or maybe four, rather than as individuals when you view a team. Players in those little groups should "complete" each other. When we play for instance Gonzales-Alonso-Gerrard-Pennant, I have to say I don't think they make up a good mix. It's all about attack. That unit can become vulnerable.
We may be alright with two wide men, but then I think we should strive to make it a 4-2-3-1. Meaning one of our strikers should "drop" and we'll have to apply some breaks on Gerrard's attacking game. I see Gerrard as the key here. If we use two wingers, he will have to take up more defensive duties. When Gerrard plays RM with Sissoko-Alonso in the center, we have more defensive safety in Sissoko, so we risk very little when Gerrard moves forward to join in the attacks.

        * * * * * *


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Offline paulblease

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Re: Liverpool -v- West Ham - a view on tactics
« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2006, 10:06:53 pm »
Last season we were superb defensively, compact and difficult to break down, straight out of the Martin O'Neill how to defend handbook, but there were moans from many about Gerrard not playing in the middle and that we wasn't attacking enough. So, some fans need to make their minds up; do they want Gerrard in the middle, where they say it's his best position, and have a more attacking, expansive approach? Or do we play him on the right instead of Pennant, losing the width, and play Sissoko in the middle and have a stronger defensive base?

Personally I think it's too early to make any kind of judgment on this, as both Xabi and Gerrard are still way off match fitness.

Offline WesternRed

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Re: Liverpool -v- West Ham - a view on tactics
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2006, 10:09:06 pm »
Quality post, there, Consigliere.  Very good to get perspective on the game other than what you see on the telly. 

I guess it's something I've only really noticed fairly recently (through many of the comments on here, and some of the decent broadsheet reports) that we are a bit unbalanced when we play Gerrard with Alonso in a 2-man midfield.  I wonder if it's because he (or a combination of himself with Xabi) can't keep the discipline to play a strictly defensive role when we are without the ball?  Xabi does play the deeper defensive role, but Gerrard can sometimes go a-wandering... then we can get caught while he makes his way back.

As you say, though, Rafa will probably iron these subtleties out over the season.  In fact, it may only take the next game or two...  After all, they had the defensive midfield aspect fairly well oiled last season, it may not take long to brush away early-season cobwebs, and get the show back on track.

Gnurglan, you're spot on about the influence of Momo in midfield.  Just like when Didi played at his peak, his influence allows Gerrard to relax and play his natural, aggressive attacking game, knowing Momo is there to mop up any problems, or at least slow down / disrupt opposition buildup, which allows Stevie to get back to his position.
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Offline Sweet Silver Song

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Re: Liverpool -v- West Ham - a view on tactics
« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2006, 10:21:52 pm »
It's all to do with possibilities. We can afford to play with such an open attacking formation because of the opposition, how they play, and the fact we were at home. On another day, against another team, on another pitch, expect Rafa to change it again to suit. When they're fit again, put Riise left mid, bring back Sissoko and stick Kronkamp right mid, and we have a compact formation. Possibilities.
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Offline Paul Tomkins

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Re: Liverpool -v- West Ham - a view on tactics
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2006, 10:41:17 pm »
There's no reason why you can't have an effective midfield two that can stop the ball being played through them - the classic example is Viera and Petit - but Alonso and Gerrard simply aren't the type players that can provide that type of defensive security.


Interesting post, and some very good points on the tactical side of things. 

However, I think you're falling into the trap that a lot of people are - namely, that of judging Alonso and Gerrard on this one game, where they weren't at their best and slightly overrun.

You need to remember that Alonso made the 2nd-highest number of successful tackles in the Premiership last season. He provides a lot of defensive security, so I don't buy your comment. Gerrard is also a hugely effective defensive player, even if he's not someone to simply sit and hold. His covering back and tackling is superb. He just left a few gaps on Saturday, and sometimes you have to take risks.

It's also important to point out that Gerrard and Alonso, as a midfield two (in a 4-4-2 formation), were by far and away the best central pairing at the club last season. When they played together centrally, the Reds scored more goals, conceded fewer, and won at a rate of nearly 2.50 points per game (compared to the overall league rate of 2.14 points per game). Sissoko was (and still is) a very important player, and a brilliant defensive player, but Gerrard and Alonso guaranteed far better results last season than any other pairing, and were also good on the defensive numbers, too. As an individual, it was also Gerrard's most productive position - better for him than as a 2nd-striker or on the right wing.

I don't think defending like a Martin O'Neill or Gerard Houllier team is what we should be pining for. Benitez's side last season was harder to break down than any team those two managers has ever had, and this season we needed more creativity and pace going forward, width, and some new striking options, which we now have.

But it might mean being a little less solid. So long as the wide men tuck in when we don't have the ball, and get wide when we do have it, it's not going to be a massive problem; it's the risk you have to take to move onwards. It's also true that Carragher and Riise were the two most reliable defenders last season, and with half the regular back four missing we're hardly going to be firing on all defensive cylinders, so that can't be judged. It will take Aurelio time to adjust, just as it will take players like Pennant and Gonzalez time to understand how Benitez wants them to play when we don't have the ball. Agger, meanwhile, is an amazing prospect but he's not yet in Carragher's class regarding reliability, nor does he have the defensive leadership.


Were it not for a couple of exceptional strikes from Gerrard - as well an assist - it would have almost certainly have been the team from East London lifting the FA Cup rather than the one from Merseyside.


Again, sorry but this is the same dodgy logic written about Agger's goal - that we shouldn't be relying on great goals, and if it wasn't for such goals, etc, etc.

The fact is that's what Steven Gerrard does. That's why we pay him £100k a week (or whatever it is). Crouch had a good goal ruled out, and West Ham only led 3-2 thanks to a wayward cross, so as well as West Ham played at Cardiff we can look at a lot of different events in the game rather than just say "if Gerrard hadn't done this or that, we'd have lost".

Offline wacko

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Re: Liverpool -v- West Ham - a view on tactics
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2006, 10:43:15 pm »
Top post Consigliere. I think Rafa was so set on Alves, because he planned to play all of Alonso, Gerrard and Sissoko in the middle this season with 3 at the back and wing-backs. That's what we need, really. Perhaps we'll see Dirk up front on his own against tougher opposition? With the pace Pennant and Speedy add to the side, the lone striker shouldn't be too isolated as in the past.
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Offline Paul Tomkins

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Re: Liverpool -v- West Ham - a view on tactics
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2006, 10:51:00 pm »
Top post Consigliere. I think Rafa was so set on Alves, because he planned to play all of Alonso, Gerrard and Sissoko in the middle this season with 3 at the back and wing-backs. That's what we need, really.


Not sure about that. We've started with wing-backs in only two games I can remember - Newcastle away two seasons running. That's hardly indicative of heading in that direction, while no top team uses 3-5-2 anymore, and no team has ever won the English league with it.

Just to add to my earlier post, the best defensive numbers by a midfield two were posted by Hamann and Sissoko, which is pretty much as you'd expect. However, we scored next-to-no goals with those two, and won few points than with Gerrard and Alonso. Sissoko and Alonso was probably used in some tougher games, with Gerrard ahead of them, but the figures are significantly less impressive.

Offline Garstonite

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Re: Liverpool -v- West Ham - a view on tactics
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2006, 10:52:56 pm »
We've used the 3-5-2 more than that Paul, so it's clearly an option for Rafa, particularly now he has the personnel to make it work better. We used it against Spurs in Rafa's first season, if I recall, and have rotated to this system during many games, too.

I think it has it's benefits, just as long as your two full-backs are good going forward, but if we want to really attack teams and stretch defences, it's not the way forward. That's not to say it isn't a possibility though.

Offline paulblease

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Re: Liverpool -v- West Ham - a view on tactics
« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2006, 10:56:29 pm »
I think he wanted Alves so we could continue playing Gerrard on the right and still have the pace and attacking threat down the wing, be it from a deeper position.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2006, 10:58:01 pm by paulblease »

Offline Sweet Silver Song

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Re: Liverpool -v- West Ham - a view on tactics
« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2006, 10:56:47 pm »

Not sure about that. We've started with wing-backs in only two games I can remember - Newcastle away two seasons running. That's hardly indicative of heading in that direction, while no top team uses 3-5-2 anymore, and no team has ever won the English league with it.

Just to add to my earlier post, the best defensive numbers by a midfield two were posted by Hamann and Sissoko, which is pretty much as you'd expect. However, we scored next-to-no goals with those two, and won few points than with Gerrard and Alonso. Sissoko and Alonso was probably used in some tougher games, with Gerrard ahead of them, but the figures are significantly less impressive.

I don't know where you get your stats from, and I have no reason to doubt them. Assuming their correct, you can bet Rafa is aware of them as well.
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*****And Liverpool have won it! They're back...outsiders all the way...

Offline Paul Tomkins

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Re: Liverpool -v- West Ham - a view on tactics
« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2006, 10:57:10 pm »
We've used the 3-5-2 more than that Paul, so it's clearly an option for Rafa, particularly now he has the personnel to make it work better. We used it against Spurs in Rafa's first season, if I recall, and have rotated to this system during many games, too.


We did in Istanbul, of course, but it's very different to use it when there's nothing left to lose and you go three at the back. I'm sure we've played 2-2-6 at times, but haven't made it part of the overall planning!

Did we use 3-5-2 in the first game of the season against Spurs in 2004/05? Don't recall that, unless you mean the League Cup tie.

Anyway, I'm not saying we've not used it, as we have, but it's still a relative rarity. We certainly have better personnel for it, especially with Agger - as you need one of the centre backs to bring the ball out. But it's still a bit of an iffy formation to my mind. Very 1996 ;)

Offline Paul Tomkins

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Re: Liverpool -v- West Ham - a view on tactics
« Reply #12 on: August 28, 2006, 11:04:21 pm »
I don't know where you get your stats from, and I have no reason to doubt them. Assuming their correct, you can bet Rafa is aware of them as well.


All collated for the book I'm about to publish with Oliver Anderson - who kept a database on all formations, personnel changes, minutes played, etc, last season, to go hand-in-hand with what occurred on the pitch. Obviously we go into a lot more depth on such issues than I can here, but it's interesting to note.

As I said earlier, I do think the Sissoko/Alonso midfield two was used (with Gerrard as a 2nd striker) in the very toughest games, so that does diminish their figures somewhat. However, the notion that Gerrard and Alonso are in any way weak is also clearly not true, based on nearly 1000 minutes spent as a partnership last season.


Offline snez1

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Re: Liverpool -v- West Ham - a view on tactics
« Reply #13 on: August 28, 2006, 11:05:25 pm »

Interesting post, and some very good points on the tactical side of things. 

However, I think you're falling into the trap that a lot of people are - namely, that of judging Alonso and Gerrard on this one game, where they weren't at their best and slightly overrun.

You need to remember that Alonso made the 2nd-highest number of successful tackles in the Premiership last season. He provides a lot of defensive security, so I don't buy your comment. Gerrard is also a hugely effective defensive player, even if he's not someone to simply sit and hold. His covering back and tackling is superb. He just left a few gaps on Saturday, and sometimes you have to take risks.

It's also important to point out that Gerrard and Alonso, as a midfield two (in a 4-4-2 formation), were by far and away the best central pairing at the club last season. When they played together centrally, the Reds scored more goals, conceded fewer, and won at a rate of nearly 2.50 points per game (compared to the overall league rate of 2.14 points per game). Sissoko was (and still is) a very important player, and a brilliant defensive player, but Gerrard and Alonso guaranteed far better results last season than any other pairing, and were also good on the defensive numbers, too. As an individual, it was also Gerrard's most productive position - better for him than as a 2nd-striker or on the right wing.

I don't think defending like a Martin O'Neill or Gerard Houllier team is what we should be pining for. Benitez's side last season was harder to break down than any team those two managers has ever had, and this season we needed more creativity and pace going forward, width, and some new striking options, which we now have.

But it might mean being a little less solid. So long as the wide men tuck in when we don't have the ball, and get wide when we do have it, it's not going to be a massive problem; it's the risk you have to take to move onwards. It's also true that Carragher and Riise were the two most reliable defenders last season, and with half the regular back four missing we're hardly going to be firing on all defensive cylinders, so that can't be judged. It will take Aurelio time to adjust, just as it will take players like Pennant and Gonzalez time to understand how Benitez wants them to play when we don't have the ball. Agger, meanwhile, is an amazing prospect but he's not yet in Carragher's class regarding reliability, nor does he have the defensive leadership.





Statistics can say what they want about us getting more points with Stevie and Xabi alone in the middle and how many tackles Xabi makes.  However, there is no way that those 2 together (as they are now) is a well balanced enough partnership to take on top sides - they got over run at home to West Ham a lot at the weekend.  Xabi has started poorly and while he has improved defensivley in the last year i don't think him alone as defensive cover in midfield is sufficent unless we're playing extremely weak sides.

He lacks pace and stamina and is beaten very easily as he isn't exactly a quick turner.  He is far better when he has Momo along side him and he can do what he does best - control the tempo of a game.

Stats are only useful up to a point and the fact that yours suggest Xabi and Stevie in the middle was our best midfield partnership proves this.  They rarely played against top sides alone or away from home from what i remember and i don't care what stats show othewise, our midfield is at its best with Momo in it (unless, as i said we're playing garbage sides).  Xabi was left so isolated so often on Saturday even in the second half and Stevie is a player who now is far far more effective and comfortable going forward - he's a  much different player than he was 3 years ago which is why he's usually very average for England as he has to curb his attacking instincts to play with Fat Boy.  Xabi needs a protector and so does Stevie when he's in the middle.  Neither are what i'd call "defensive" midfielders no matter how many tackles Xabi made last season.  One is a playmaker who should be controling the game with his range of passing and one is an atacking midifelder who just happens to be a very complete player who was used in a defensive role 3 or 4 years ago and still is for his country (which is, like i said, why he's mainly shite for England in comparison to his club form).

I really don't see a future for a Xabi/Stevie midfield and our captain will have to spend a lot of time out wide or our playmaker on the bench (or both) this season because we miss Momo badly when he's not there as was proven again on Saturday.

We've been less solid for the reasons you point out - Riise and Carra missing and also playing with genuine width (Pennant and Gonzalez) rather than 2 wingers who are defnsivley better and tuck in (Garcia and Stevie).
« Last Edit: August 28, 2006, 11:10:23 pm by snez1 »

Offline Paul Tomkins

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Re: Liverpool -v- West Ham - a view on tactics
« Reply #14 on: August 28, 2006, 11:18:16 pm »
Statistics can say what they want about us getting more points with Stevie and Xabi alone in the middle and how many tackles Xabi makes. 


But they don't "say what they want". They are based on what took place, not some form of invention.

Again, I've made the point about the tougher games, etc. I'm not saying they tell the whole story; far from it. But they do suggest Gerrard and Alonso were a good pairing last year. There's little evidence that they don't work together as a pair, and fairly strong evidence that they do... although not on Saturday. That was one game; do we *have* to judge things on one game? West Ham overran us, therefore it doesn't work. Well, I think Xabi looked tired after Kiev, and isn't yet 100% fit; perhaps that had some bearing?

But this wasn't a post about just playing the top teams, as you mention, was it? I'd always expect Benitez to find room for Sissoko, Gerrard and Alonso when playing the top teams, and in the toughest away games. That's a given.

While Xabi needs someone to do his running, you're missing the point about his tackling ability. I wrote about how great his tackling was early last season on .tv long before I had any stats to back it up. His reading of the game from a defensive point of view is superb. He's no Graeme Souness thundering into 50-50s - he's more like a silent assassin, picking off the ball and using it smartly. I think because he's so good on the ball people miss how brilliantly he takes up position when the opposition have it, and the economy of effort in winning it off them. More than anything, he can turn defence to attack far quicker than Hamann or Makelele, the two most-lauded of that type of player in recent years.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2006, 11:23:18 pm by Paul Tomkins »

Offline snez1

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Re: Liverpool -v- West Ham - a view on tactics
« Reply #15 on: August 28, 2006, 11:31:54 pm »

But they don't "say what they want". They are based on what took place, not some form of invention.

Again, I've made the point about the tougher games, etc. I'm not saying they tell the whole story; far from it. But they do suggest Gerrard and Alonso were a good pairing last year. There's little evidence that they don't work together as a pair, and fairly strong evidence that they do... although not on Saturday. That was one game; do we *have* to judge things on one game? West Ham overrun us, therefore it doesn't work. Well, I think Xabi looked tired after Kiev, and isn't yet 100% fit; perhaps that had some bearing?

But this wasn't a post about just playing the top teams, as you mention, was it? I'd always expect Benitez to find room for Sissoko, Gerrard and Alonso when playing the top teams, and in the toughest away games. That's a given.

While Xabi needs someone to do his running, you're missing the point about his tackling ability. I wrote about how great his tackling was early last season on .tv long before I had any stats to back it up. His reading of the game from a defensive point of view is superb. He's no Graeme Souness thundering into 50-50s - he's more like a silent assassin, picking off the ball and using it smartly. I think because he's so good on the ball people miss how brilliantly he takes up position when the opposition have it, and the economy of effort in winning it off them. More than anything, he can turn defence to attack far quicker than Hamann or Makelele, the two most-lauded of that type of player in recent years.

I noticed also last year that his tackling had improved.  However, i still don't think he offers enough protection on his own with Stevie and that is not based on one game against West Ham.  I've thought it more or less since he joined but gave it a chance.  They will be effective against smaller sides (especially at Anfield) but against big sides and battling sides away from home they aren't a good partnership.  The fact Rafa rarely plays them together (from what i rememeber) against big sides and away unless Momo/didi isn't/wasn't available proves this.

You say thet played around 1000 minutes togetehr in there last season - do you have the stats that show which games these we're? Not being a prick or anything because i'd love to see out of interest and see what games they did actually play because the amount we switched formations in games etc means i can barely remember when they started/stayed together  in the middle.  I've got a programme here which shows they  played togetehr in games like TNS and Kaunas for a kick off which would probably take up around a fifth of that time used to gather your results. 

That doesn't automatically mean we should discount the findings but it does need to be taken into account because being good against Welsh part-timers and Kaunas is more than expected and holds no weight when your talking about the Premiership.

I can't be arsed reading through these tricky programme notes and they won't be as accurate as yours as they only give info on whether they started and we're subvbed and i have to fill in the blanks myself a bit (like were they the only 2 central midfielders who started?  If so could they have switched positions mid-game?)

If you have the stats to hand it would be excellent to see just which games Rafa played them alone for as apposed to merely the results when they we're paired.  I'd guess they rarely played against top 6-8 sides and most of their apppearances togteher we're at Anfield.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2006, 11:35:41 pm by snez1 »

Offline Paul Tomkins

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Re: Liverpool -v- West Ham - a view on tactics
« Reply #16 on: August 28, 2006, 11:55:09 pm »
That doesn't automatically mean we should discount the findings but it does need to be taken into account because being good against Welsh part-timers and Kaunas is more than expected and holds no weight when your talking about the Premiership.


Indeed. It includes the away games against Kaunas and CSKA Sofia, neither of which were *really* easy games; admittedly, TNS were piss-poor and hardly worthy of taking seriously. Will dig out the rest tomorrow, but from that point onwards it was against a better quality of opposition. You also need to remember that games like Kaunas away involved only 59 minutes of Gerrard/Alonso, with Gerrard taken off with the game won at 3-1 at that stage; Gerrard was also taken off after 69 minutes in Sofia with the game also won by that stage. So it's not a case of saying each game involved the full 90 minutes, as clearly it didn't. They needed just 60/70 minutes to win the game, then Hamann or whoever came on to shut up shop.

Oh, and just to add that I don't think Gerrard and Alonso are without faults as a pair, especially when Gerrard wanders. But despite some scares it helped us create lots of chances and ultimately win the game on Saturday, and deservedly so. I guess I was quoting the stats in response to the notion that they don't work as a pair, rather than saying "look, these two are perfect together". They do work as a pair, but I think that's true of any of the three possible duos from those three players. The fact is that with Gerrard as a central midfielder we have more ambition, because he drives forward so well. Do we do that knowing our new strikeforce (with Gerrard bursting to join them) and wingers firing in crosses can score the goals to kill games off, and risk exposing Xabi at times?

I'll exit this debate tonight with a final thought, and that is that it all comes down to balance. The front two, the central two - or three - and the wide men: who do you pick and how do they blend? Who do you omit? Whatever we do there will be some minor faults, but correcting those faults could cause bigger problems. That's always the challenge.

It will take time to get it just right. A lot of changes have been made over the summer, and at the moment each unit is not quite functioning at 100%, both in terms of itself and in terms of how that unit interacts with other parts of the team. Once we see our strongest XI (or close variations) we'll have a better idea.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2006, 11:59:14 pm by Paul Tomkins »

Offline snez1

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Re: Liverpool -v- West Ham - a view on tactics
« Reply #17 on: August 29, 2006, 12:08:20 am »

Indeed. It includes the away games against Kaunas and CSKA Sofia, neither of which were *really* easy games; admittedly, TNS were piss-poor and hardly worthy of taking seriously. Will dig out the rest tomorrow, but from that point onwards it was against a better quality of opposition. You also need to remember that games like Kaunas away involved only 59 minutes of Gerrard/Alonso, with Gerrard taken off with the game won at 3-1 at that stage; Gerrard was also taken off after 69 minutes in Sofia with the game also won by that stage. So it's not a case of saying each game involved the full 90 minutes, as clearly it didn't. They needed just 60/70 minutes to win the game, then Hamann or whoever came on to shut up shop.

Oh, and just to add that I don't think Gerrard and Alonso are without faults as a pair, especially when Gerrard wanders. But despite some scares it helped us create lots of chances and ultimately win the game on Saturday, and deservedly so. I guess I was quoting the stats in response to the notion that they don't work as a pair, rather than saying "look, these two are perfect together". They do work as a pair, but I think that's true of any of the three possible duos from those three players. The fact is that with Gerrard as a central midfielder we have more ambition, because he drives forward so well. Do we do that knowing our new strikeforce (with Gerrard bursting to join them) and wingers firing in crosses can score the goals to kill games off, and risk exposing Xabi at times?

I'll exit this debate tonight with a final thought, and that is that it all comes down to balance. The front two, the central two - or three - and the wide men: who do you pick and how do they blend? Who do you omit? Whatever we do there will be some minor faults, but correcting those faults could cause bigger problems. That's always the challenge.

It will take time to get it just right. A lot of changes have been made over the summer, and at the moment each unit is not quite functioning at 100%, both in terms of itself and in terms of how that unit interacts with other parts of the team. Once we see our strongest XI (or close variations) we'll have a better idea.


Faif enough, look forward to the rest of the games if you can dig em out tomorrow.  They started togetehr against City and Wigan an Anfield which again backs up what I thought.  Then there's Istanbul with Kaka and that horror show.  that said, i understand where you are coming from and they are by no means a "bad" pair, just not ideally suited in my opinion.  Be very interesting to see when else Rafa started them together as my mind is fucked right now so i'm going to go to bed.


Offline Consigliere

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Re: Liverpool -v- West Ham - a view on tactics
« Reply #18 on: August 29, 2006, 02:24:16 am »
Again, sorry but this is the same dodgy logic written about Agger's goal - that we shouldn't be relying on great goals, and if it wasn't for such goals, etc, etc.

The fact is that's what Steven Gerrard does. That's why we pay him £100k a week (or whatever it is). Crouch had a good goal ruled out, and West Ham only led 3-2 thanks to a wayward cross, so as well as West Ham played at Cardiff we can look at a lot of different events in the game rather than just say "if Gerrard hadn't done this or that, we'd have lost".

I'm not sure what the argument is there.

I'd quite happy for Gerrard to score 30 yard hatricks in every game he plays, but I'd also want other players to make big contributions as well. Call it insurance or call it the whole team raising its game by another level but if we rely on Gerrard, and only Gerrard to win us games, then we just get into another Benfica or Arsenal situation where if he's not producing a match winning performance, we can't win the game. I would hate to think what would happen if he got injured and we didn't have any other players that could compensate. Other players really need to step up a level and be prepared to dig deep and produce 'big performances' when it matters - whether its against the likes of Chelsea, Arsenal or even West Ham on Saturday, where the result was still in the balance until the final whistle. I don't want to see us winning games by a one goal margin or on penalties - I'd rather see us destroying teams.

I remember the team of  Barnes, Beardsley, Aldridge and others. There were times Barnes carried the entire team but wasn't as if the likes of Beardsley weren't making vital contributions when it mattered. The Arsenal team during the Adams/Viera/Petit/Bergkamp era and the Man Utd team of Keane/Cantona/Scholes were the same - teams with 3 or 4 hugely influential players across the pitch that could produce 'big' performances throughout the season and when it really mattered.

I have to admit that I'm not a fan of statistics to demonstrate how a team plays or the quality of play. They can provide a certain amount of information but statistics of themselves leave out an awful lot of imponderables and if used incorrectly, provide a misleading picture. I remember seeing the Opta stats from a few years ago for Hamann which showed him playing a huge number of passes during a game with a stratospherically high pass completion ratio. But they say nothing about the quality of passes or the penetration of passing. In all likelihood, he was playing 3 yard passes left and right. I'll play devil's advocate and use another example. Take two players who play in the same position. One makes 100 tackles during the game, and the other makes 50 tackles. What do the stats suggest? Well, nothing, apart from the fact that one player makes 50 tackles and the other makes 100 tackles. They say nothing about where the tackles are made (high up the pitch, in front of the centre backs etc), where that player puts pressure on the ball, whether he closes down play, stops the ball getting anywhere near the defence, whether they're critical tackles in critical areas of the pitch or meaningless ones, and so on and so on. If statistics were the be all and end all, we would managed by this bloke. I certainly hope that your use of stats in your forthcoming book is going to a case of the commentary leading the stats and not the other way around.

It all comes down to balance. The front two, the central two - or three - and the wide men: who do you pick and how do they blend? Who do you omit? Whatever we do there will be some minor faults, but correcting those faults could cause bigger problems. That's always the challenge.

It will take time to get it just right. A lot of changes have been made over the summer, and at the moment each unit is not quite functioning at 100%, both in terms of itself and in terms of how that unit interacts with other parts of the team. Once we see our strongest XI (or close variations) we'll have a better idea.

Completely agree with you on that one ;)

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Re: Liverpool -v- West Ham - a view on tactics
« Reply #19 on: August 29, 2006, 03:29:43 am »
However, with any strength there comes a weakness and that was apparent when West Ham had the ball and were on the attack.

I'm not sure that we need to get our knickers in a knot over defensive tactics based on Saturday's game.  West Ham had all of 3 shots on target. Their goal was a shank, and their two close calls (Harewood's and Bowyer's shots) both involved plays that should have been called for offside.  I suspect that Rafa was more concerned on Saturday about the lack of finishing at the other end of the pitch.
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Offline Consigliere

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Re: Liverpool -v- West Ham - a view on tactics
« Reply #20 on: August 29, 2006, 04:24:47 am »
I'm sure someone as analytical and thorough as Benitez would have wanted to have a look at alot of things, only one of which would have been the team's inability to kill off the game which he stated in his post match interview.

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Re: Liverpool -v- West Ham - a view on tactics
« Reply #21 on: August 29, 2006, 07:16:14 am »
You need to remember that Alonso made the 2nd-highest number of successful tackles in the Premiership last season.
Sissoko number 1???
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Re: Liverpool -v- West Ham - a view on tactics
« Reply #22 on: August 29, 2006, 09:23:39 am »
Sissoko number 1???


He was leading the Opta tackles early in the season, and I think he made more 'per minute' than anyone this season, but less overall.

As you can see, Xabi was in with some real yard-dog tacklers who you'd expect to be going around making lots of tackles. Also, as Liverpool would have had more possession than 95% of the teams in the division over the course of the season, that means less opportunity to tackle.

Tacklers   Team        Tackles        Success rate               
McCann        Aston Villa      177       67%               
Xabi Alonso   Liverpool       167         75%               
Savage        Blackburn      167         68%               
Kishishev     Charlton        166         73%               
Young          Charlton        164         70%               
                            
Passers        Team        Passes        Accuracy               
Lampard       Chelsea        2015        81%               
Fabregas       Arsenal        1957        83%               
Carrick           Tottenham    1938        80%               
Gilberto        Arsenal        1820         84%               
Xabi Alonso   Liverpool      1820        82%   
« Last Edit: August 29, 2006, 09:26:40 am by Paul Tomkins »

Offline Paul Tomkins

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Re: Liverpool -v- West Ham - a view on tactics
« Reply #23 on: August 29, 2006, 09:49:30 am »
I'm not sure what the argument is there.

I'd quite happy for Gerrard to score 30 yard hatricks in every game he plays, but I'd also want other players to make big contributions as well. Call it insurance or call it the whole team raising its game by another level but if we rely on Gerrard, and only Gerrard to win us games, then we just get into another Benfica or Arsenal situation where if he's not producing a match winning performance, we can't win the game. I would hate to think what would happen if he got injured and we didn't have any other players that could compensate. Other players really need to step up a level and be prepared to dig deep and produce 'big performances' when it matters - whether its against the likes of Chelsea, Arsenal or even West Ham on Saturday, where the result was still in the balance until the final whistle. I don't want to see us winning games by a one goal margin or on penalties - I'd rather see us destroying teams.



I just don't see this argument. We have too many other good players to rely on Gerrard. I don't like the logic of 'but for...'. As I said, but for Crouch's wrongly disallowed goal at Cardiff, or but for the penalty he should have had on Saturday, everything could have been very different. Suddenly we're not relying on Gerrard.

The obvious point is that Sissoko and Alonso were overrun at times against West Ham in Cardiff. Sissoko was awesome that day, but it didn't stop West Ham creating chances. So I'm not sure if you can say it's down to Alonso and Gerrard not being right together. West Ham have given us problems whatever team we've put out; they did the same at Upton Park last season, when we went with the very defensive Hamann and Sissoko in the centre.

So I'm not sure it's *necessarily* down to the central two.

I'd like to see us make games more comfortable too, and I can see us heading in that direction with this squad. It's too early in the season to be thinking otherwise. Crouch is in form, Kuyt looks like a star in the making, and we are getting goals from crosses. Our attacking play has gone up two notches, and our defending back a notch (for a variety of reasons), but that's still an overall improvement on this time a year ago. If Gerrard finds his shooting boots, that will help kill off games.



I certainly hope that your use of stats in your forthcoming book is going to a case of the commentary leading the stats and not the other way around.


The book is best viewed in its entirety as a large collection of analysed and explained stats that give an overall picture.

Any time I pick out individual findings on RAWK they are removed from the context in which they are intended to be viewed, and that clearly leaves them open to attack. The intro of the book clearly points out that any individual findings are to be treated as mere circumstantial evidence, and that it is the build-up of these facts over the course of the book that give a unique kind of insight. The more stats you have, and when based on a longer period of time (i.e. one game is too short a sample period) then the more you can expect to see patterns.

Now, I can't help but be tempted use what the 'evidence' suggests in a debate like this, but I'm not trying to say 'the stats say this, so it must be true', merely use them to point out what they suggest. Liverpool *did* do better with Alonso and Gerrard in the middle. Yes, it may have included easy games, but then Sissoko and Alonso were used in 'easy' games, too. I do think Alonso and Sissoko were used in the very toughest games, in a 4-5-1 formation, as I said. But does that account for all of the very big difference in the results in the comparisons between pairings?

It's also made perfectly clear in the intro that judging football with numbers cannot take into account the quality or difficulty of the passes/shots/tackles. It's merely a form of analysis, and is always presented with our impressions. But ultimately, it's also left up to the reader to draw his or her own conclusions.

« Last Edit: August 29, 2006, 09:53:06 am by Paul Tomkins »

Offline Hank Scorpio

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Re: Liverpool -v- West Ham - a view on tactics
« Reply #24 on: August 29, 2006, 10:54:42 am »
I think one of the main reasons we were ‘overrun’ by West Ham at times was the fact that as yet we have not got the balance between defence and attack right.  We have added many attacking options to our side and I think in trying to incorporate these attacking options we have suffered (a little) defensively.  For example we have added genuine width and perhaps in trying to stretch the oppositions defence we are finding ourselves less compact in midfield and sometimes outnumbered.  There is no doubt that a midfield of Riise-Sissoko-Alonso-Gerrard would be a lot more compact than the midfield we saw on Saturday but we would have compensated in an attacking sense.

I also believe the number of new players in the side on Saturday did not help in establishing a balance.  At one point on Saturday the team had Agger, Aurelio, Pennant, Gonzalez, Bellamy and Kuyt who are all new faces (since January).  That is 6 out of 11 players.  I hope once the new players have completely settled in (and got a few games under their belts) we will have the correct balance.

One of the most impressive parts of our game against West Ham was how we turned the score line on its head in a matter of minutes.  How many times have done that in the last few seasons in the league?

When the balance is right we will score goals and not concede.  On Saturday if the game had gone to 3-1 (which it quite easily could have) we could have seen 4 or maybe 5 goals as West Ham’s confidence would have shot.  So perhaps we are not so far off establishing the balance.

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Re: Liverpool -v- West Ham - a view on tactics
« Reply #25 on: August 29, 2006, 11:01:39 am »
This is true, we are still in a 'settling-in' period and yet we are still winning games. No need to panic
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Re: Liverpool -v- West Ham - a view on tactics
« Reply #26 on: August 29, 2006, 11:01:54 am »
"you" (a lot of people anyway) wanted wingers, you got them, don't complain when we leave ourselves open to getting attacked by other teams, it's as simple as that...

there's fuck all wrong with Alonso and Gerrard in the middle, if they're getting outnumbered then it's up to the wide players to attack wide and defend narrow, it's kid's stuff...Bowyer and Benayoun love coming off the flanks to get into the areas between fullback, centre back, wide mid and centre mid...

we need to average 2.5 points per game this season to threaten to win number 19, we're not going to do that by packing the midfield in case someone has the bollocks to try to score against us...

some people just seem to think that we've got a right to step out on the field and play with 2 wingers and the opposition should just roll over and die, well we haven't...fair play to the Hammers for making a game of it yet again...if they hadn't stuck to their refreshing approach to the game people would be moaning that they came and defended with 2 banks of 4 and we couldn't break them down...you can't have it both ways...

Offline Paul Tomkins

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Re: Liverpool -v- West Ham - a view on tactics
« Reply #27 on: August 29, 2006, 11:15:26 am »
"you" (a lot of people anyway) wanted wingers, you got them, don't complain when we leave ourselves open to getting attacked by other teams, it's as simple as that...

there's fuck all wrong with Alonso and Gerrard in the middle, if they're getting outnumbered then it's up to the wide players to attack wide and defend narrow, it's kid's stuff...Bowyer and Benayoun love coming off the flanks to get into the areas between fullback, centre back, wide mid and centre mid...

we need to average 2.5 points per game this season to threaten to win number 19, we're not going to do that by packing the midfield in case someone has the bollocks to try to score against us...

some people just seem to think that we've got a right to step out on the field and play with 2 wingers and the opposition should just roll over and die, well we haven't...fair play to the Hammers for making a game of it yet again...if they hadn't stuck to their refreshing approach to the game people would be moaning that they came and defended with 2 banks of 4 and we couldn't break them down...you can't have it both ways...



Well said. You can't have perfect flair and perfect solidity. At least not straightaway. It takes time to get right, and will never be 100% perfect. If you go forward in numbers, as we all want, then you can't have eight men behind the ball at the same time.

What I hated about Houllier's tactics, especially towards the end, was that no one ever left his station. It was always rigid 4-4-2 when we were defending, which is fair enough, but we attacked in the same way. Players rarely interchanged to lose their markers, and it was all about the ball over the top while the midfield sat back.

Pace, skill and movement will lead to gaps at the other end of the pitch. Last season we started by drawing too many games, keeping clean sheets but also failing to score; this year we've scored in every game, but not kept a clean sheet. However, we've already beaten two good, attacking sides in West Ham and Chelsea.

Offline Hank Scorpio

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Re: Liverpool -v- West Ham - a view on tactics
« Reply #28 on: August 29, 2006, 11:31:27 am »


Well said. You can't have perfect flair and perfect solidity. At least not straightaway. It takes time to get right, and will never be 100% perfect. If you go forward in numbers, as we all want, then you can't have eight men behind the ball at the same time.


This is true.

I think also now there is less 'fear' in us going 1-0 down.

Even last season if we went 1-0 down I felt that a draw was most we could expect in the league.  We lacked attacking options and the lack of pace up front did not help.  However now I feel we have the ability as a team to score goals and the deficit of a goal can be easily over turned (like it was in a matter of minutes against West Ham).

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Re: Liverpool -v- West Ham - a view on tactics
« Reply #29 on: August 29, 2006, 11:35:34 am »
I thought we played quite well!!!
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Offline Paul Tomkins

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Re: Liverpool -v- West Ham - a view on tactics
« Reply #30 on: August 29, 2006, 11:56:48 am »
Snez -

Alonso and Gerrard started 11 games together, which totalled 764 minutes (average of 69 minutes per start), in which time the team scored 17 goals and only conceded four. That's two goals for per game and 0.47 goals against per game in their starts.

Those 11 starts included sides such as Man United (home), Newcastle (home), Bolton, Man City, Wigan and Benfica. So a reasonably broad spectrum of opposition. Not conceding in the Newcastle and Manchester United games shows the solidity can be there, as they were two of the better attacking teams last season, especially as Newcastle had Owen in form at the time (a hat-trick a week earlier).

When they were paired together later in matches where they didn't start as a duo, either as one was a sub or Gerrard was switched inside from the flank, the goals-for figure went up to 2.32 per game, and the goals-against stayed the same.

Again, not trying to definitively "prove" anything here, merely pointing out some stuff.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2006, 11:59:37 am by Paul Tomkins »

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Re: Liverpool -v- West Ham - a view on tactics
« Reply #31 on: August 29, 2006, 12:06:55 pm »
This is true.

I think also now there is less 'fear' in us going 1-0 down.


If Istanbul has taught the team anything, is even at 3-0, we're still in it. I doubt many reds thought we were out of the FA Cup final at 2-0 down.
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Offline Polemicist

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Re: Liverpool -v- West Ham - a view on tactics
« Reply #32 on: August 29, 2006, 12:09:34 pm »
The problem was our left handside and not Gerrard/Alonso (who looks a little rusty, but it's early days yet).

All West Hams good work came down our left hand side. This is partly due to Aurellio's positioning and awareness (which will improve as he gets used to a new defence), but mainly due to Garcia drifting and the absence of Momo (and his energy to cover).Aurellio kept getting double teamed and that's why Rafa was quick to bring on Gonzales when he did.

We still look a bit shaky down the centre of defence, but that's to expected with a new Agger/Hyypia partnership. The reason why Carra and Sami play so well together as there strengths compliment each other: Hyypia the strong dominant one, and Carra sweeping up behind and making sure we don't get caught out (although that's no criticism of Carra's strength).


Pennant offered a lot, but didn't look 100% fit. Both the Crouch / Bellamy; Bellany / Kuyt partnerships worked well. Bellamy's work-rate was phenomenal against the Hammers.

All in all, very encouraging and some wonderful attacking football, epecially in the first half when we went a goal down.
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Offline Garstonite

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Re: Liverpool -v- West Ham - a view on tactics
« Reply #33 on: August 29, 2006, 12:28:21 pm »
We did in Istanbul, of course, but it's very different to use it when there's nothing left to lose and you go three at the back. I'm sure we've played 2-2-6 at times, but haven't made it part of the overall planning!

Did we use 3-5-2 in the first game of the season against Spurs in 2004/05? Don't recall that, unless you mean the League Cup tie.

Anyway, I'm not saying we've not used it, as we have, but it's still a relative rarity. We certainly have better personnel for it, especially with Agger - as you need one of the centre backs to bring the ball out. But it's still a bit of an iffy formation to my mind. Very 1996 ;)

We had a formation like this:

Dudek
Finnan Carragher Hyypia Pellegrino Warnock
Nunez Alonso Gerrard
Garcia Morientes

A 3-5-2/4-4-2 with Warnock dropping forward a lot.

But as you say, it's very 1996! But if we can have that sort of attacking style of football, mixed in with a solid defensive unit, I won't argue against it.

Offline snez1

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Re: Liverpool -v- West Ham - a view on tactics
« Reply #34 on: August 29, 2006, 12:48:45 pm »
Snez -

Alonso and Gerrard started 11 games together, which totalled 764 minutes (average of 69 minutes per start), in which time the team scored 17 goals and only conceded four. That's two goals for per game and 0.47 goals against per game in their starts.

Those 11 starts included sides such as Man United (home), Newcastle (home), Bolton, Man City, Wigan and Benfica. So a reasonably broad spectrum of opposition. Not conceding in the Newcastle and Manchester United games shows the solidity can be there, as they were two of the better attacking teams last season, especially as Newcastle had Owen in form at the time (a hat-trick a week earlier).

When they were paired together later in matches where they didn't start as a duo, either as one was a sub or Gerrard was switched inside from the flank, the goals-for figure went up to 2.32 per game, and the goals-against stayed the same.

Again, not trying to definitively "prove" anything here, merely pointing out some stuff.

Wicked, cheers Paul.  Very surprised to here that they started against the Mancs alone in the middle (i think Luis must have played in the hole that day?).  Mind you that was one fucking boring game where neither side commited.

Despite that and the Newcastle game (they we're shite regardless of Mikeys 3 a week earlier) i think they are not suited well enough to get the best out of each other unless at Anfield against weaker sides we're going to be attacking for 90% of the game (The fact West Ham came out and made it open left us vulnarable but not many other sides will come here and be that attacking in future).

I think benfica also backs this up pretty well.  They we're pretty average but quick and skillful on the break which ultimatly cost us.  All through those 90 minutes they we're going right through our midfield with players like Simao and the other 2 attacking midfielders i forget the names of.  I thik had Momo or Didi been in we'd have stood a better chance of going through.

Nice one for postig the stats Paul, it's an interesting debate and i guess we'll just have to see in the future what Rafa will end up using most often, for we have many possibilities :D
« Last Edit: August 29, 2006, 12:54:34 pm by snez1 »

Offline thespianchef

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Re: Liverpool -v- West Ham - a view on tactics
« Reply #35 on: August 29, 2006, 12:57:37 pm »
I personally am not at all worried and believe that we are in more of a transition from a slightly defensive team, with attacking options, towards an attacking team that now needs to 're-learn' how to defend in times they don't have the ball. I base this on the players which Rafa has bought recently; they have tended to have more flair and be more fluid than the average set-up of our team last season. It is true that last season we were defensively superb, but this is partly what strangled the goal talley and Rafa has realised this, hence the attacking options brought in. It is inevitable that playing with a more attacking style will take time to get used to, but I believe that we will be much better off once that transition is realised and a balance is reached.
"I was the best manager in Britain because I was never devious or cheated anyone. I'd break my wife's legs if I played against her, but I'd never cheat her." Bill Shankly

Offline Hank Scorpio

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Re: Liverpool -v- West Ham - a view on tactics
« Reply #36 on: August 29, 2006, 01:00:55 pm »
If Istanbul has taught the team anything, is even at 3-0, we're still in it. I doubt many reds thought we were out of the FA Cup final at 2-0 down.

I was talking about the league.

The CL and FA Cup Finals can be counted as exceptional circumstances although they are good examples of the game never being over.

Ask yourself how many times did we come back from behind to win a league game last year?

Offline syllogism

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Re: Liverpool -v- West Ham - a view on tactics
« Reply #37 on: August 29, 2006, 01:25:13 pm »
It's also important to point out that Gerrard and Alonso, as a midfield two (in a 4-4-2 formation), were by far and away the best central pairing at the club last season. When they played together centrally, the Reds scored more goals, conceded fewer, and won at a rate of nearly 2.50 points per game (compared to the overall league rate of 2.14 points per game). Sissoko was (and still is) a very important player, and a brilliant defensive player, but Gerrard and Alonso guaranteed far better results last season than any other pairing, and were also good on the defensive numbers, too. As an individual, it was also Gerrard's most productive position - better for him than as a 2nd-striker or on the right wing.

I think you're quoting the wrong statistic here. Rather than looking at average number of points won, you should look at average offset of points from the same fixture in the previous year. This will allow you to incorporate some notion of the difficulty of the fixture into how well the team actully did. For instance, if Gerrard and Alonso were played in 6 games, and we won every game, but they were fixtures which we won the previous year too, how much have we learned about the Gerrard and Alonso partnership? I think we've learned little.

I'd also appreciate it if you'd tell us the number of games these things are based on. I know we're getting the results of some time consuming analysis for free here, so I shouldn't complain. But still, if you do want to convince us in these threads, the extra information would be helpful for that.

Offline Paul Tomkins

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Re: Liverpool -v- West Ham - a view on tactics
« Reply #38 on: August 29, 2006, 01:26:16 pm »
Ask yourself how many times did we come back from behind to win a league game last year?


Well, we've done it many times under Benitez since he arrived. Man City in his first home game, Fulham 4-2, Istanbul, Luton, West Ham in Cardiff, and Haifa and West Ham already this season.

Under Houllier, it was May 1999, I think, when we last came from behind to win.

I don't think we did it too many times in the league last season, but with 22 clean sheets in 38 games that only left 16 games where we conceded. If we'd gone behind last season we could still have come back, but we certainly have more players capable of changing games this season.

Offline Hank Scorpio

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Re: Liverpool 2-1 West Ham: a view on tactics
« Reply #39 on: August 29, 2006, 01:52:12 pm »

Well, we've done it many times under Benitez since he arrived. Man City in his first home game, Fulham 4-2, Istanbul, Luton, West Ham in Cardiff, and Haifa and West Ham already this season.

Under Houllier, it was May 1999, I think, when we last came from behind to win.

I don't think we did it too many times in the league last season, but with 22 clean sheets in 38 games that only left 16 games where we conceded. If we'd gone behind last season we could still have come back, but we certainly have more players capable of changing games this season.

Paul,

I was talking about the league in specific.

You have mentioned only 3 league games there in 77 (under Benitez).  That is a very small number.

My point was that we are now more capable of coming from behind due to our attacking options (like you said).

Also how often have we changed a game around in a matter of minutes like we did on Saturday?  I can't recall a time under Benitez (once again in the league).  That is normally the mark of champions...