Topic: Labour Thread

[thaddeus]

I hope and pray they come out swinging.  They need to be clear who they're representing and how they will fund getting us out of the mess the Tories have left us in.  If that annoys some middle Englanders then now may be the time to do that.

This winter is going to be horrendous for so many and they need to have hope that a Labour government would make things significantly better.

[Red Beret]

It's really important that Labour leave the electorate under no illusions what needs to be done to clear up the Tories' mess. It's also really important that they impress upon the electorate that any easier way any other party might promise it can be done is an outright lie.

Tories accuse Labour of tax and spend; this will be tax to fill the black hole left by reckless Tory borrowing.

Will re-nationalising assets help reduce costs in the long run?  Public ownership seems a sensible way to reduce expenditure, as we won't be spunking public money on private companies.

[PatriotScouser]

Emma Dent Coad blocked from restanding as a candidate in Kensington.

Excellent news. I won't derail the thread to say why - lots of reasons why I am happy about it which is easily searchable via google.

[Jiminy Cricket]

Emma Dent Coad blocked from restanding as a candidate in Kensington.

Excellent news. I won't derail the thread to say why - lots of reasons why I am happy about it which is easily searchable via google.

A quick read of her Wiki page indicates that this certainly for the best.

[Nobby Reserve]

Emma Dent Coad blocked from restanding as a candidate in Kensington.

Excellent news. I won't derail the thread to say why - lots of reasons why I am happy about it which is easily searchable via google.

Who needs socialists, eh?

[Jiminy Cricket]

Who needs socialists, eh?

She's a moron. Not only that, but a moron with a big mouth. Not the kind of person Labour needs as an MP.

[Nobby Reserve]

They were fully on board for Iraq, as would any government have been given the available information. But the Tories would not have been involved in establishing the minimum wage, sure-start, academies,

1) 'the information' was concocted to support Blair joining with that arsewipe Bush on the US's 'great buccaneering adventure' to capture the Iraqi oil and hand out mega 'rebuilding' contracts to corporations friendly to the then US 'neocon' administration - companies ike Halliburton, Kellogg/Brown/Root, etc.

2) I really wouldn't call academies any kind of success. In fact the opposite. Eduction has become a mish-mash of school-types with different curriculums, and the teaching of all kinds of religious shite as fact (creationism, anyone?)

[Nobby Reserve]

She's a moron. Not only that, but a moron with a big mouth. Not the kind of person Labour needs as an MP.

Explain why whe's a moron. You've made the accusation.

[Jiminy Cricket]

Explain why whe's a moron. You've made the accusation.

I'm going by her Wiki entry:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emma_Dent_Coad#Controversy

In September 2017, Dent Coad was the subject of press criticism for comments about Prince Harry and his role as a British Army Apache helicopter pilot which she then withdrew.[38][39] She later said that her remarks had been "a joke" which had been "taken the wrong way".[40]

In November 2017, Dent Coad was criticised for retweeting a post on Twitter using a quotation from Roald Dahl's children's book The Twits to suggest that the Prime Minister Theresa May was 'ugly' due to her 'ugly thoughts', whereas Jeremy Corbyn had 'good thoughts' and was 'lovely'. Conservative MP George Freeman said: "The re-appearance of misogyny and racial prejudice in Corbyn's Labour Party isn't a surprise".[41]

In November 2017, it emerged that Dent Coad had, in 2010, described Shaun Bailey, then a Conservative parliamentary candidate, now a London Assembly member, as a "token ghetto boy". In the same blog post, she quoted an anonymous former neighbour of Bailey who had described him as a "free-loading scumbag".[42] She wrote that Bailey was being "used" by the Conservative Party and asked: "Who can say where this man will ever fit in, however hard he tries?" She proceeded to state that if Bailey were to win his seat "he will no longer be welcome in North Ken[sington]".[42] Bailey subsequently called the comments "racist" and "hate-filled".[43] Dent Coad later apologised for "any offence caused".[44]

Seems pretty moronic to me. And the big mouth tweeted this shit too.

[Nobby Reserve]

I'm going by her Wiki entry:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emma_Dent_Coad#ControversySeems pretty moronic to me. And the big mouth tweeted this shit too.

That's your evidence?

The Prince Harry thing really was a joke . “Harry can’t actually fly a helicopter … He tried to pass the helicopter exam about four times and he couldn’t get through it at all so he always goes for the co-pilot. So he just sits there going ‘vroom vroom’.” This alludes to the reports of Eton having to help him cheat to pass his exams (https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2005/may/10/schools.alevels2004#:~:text=Former%20teachers%20of%20Prince%20Harry,a%20tribunal%20was%20told%20yesterday.&text=2005%2006.12%20EDT-,Former%20teachers%20of%20Prince%20Harry%20at%20Eton%20College%20helped%20him,a%20tribunal%20was%20told%20yesterday.)

The Roald Dahl thing is about as mild as you get get. But the Tories twisted what she posted to call it misogyinist, when it was nothing of the sort.

I'll give you the 'token ghetto boy' as being stupid.

[Father Ted]

All of that seems pretty damn tame by the daily standards of cruelty, idiotcy and malevolence that is British political life. Continues reading wikipedia entry...

Dent Coad supported Jeremy Corbyn in the 2016 Labour leadership election.[31] She identifies as a socialist and was a member of the Socialist Campaign Group of Labour MPs during her time in parliament.[32]

Ah. Bingo.

These people need booting out one by one, or possibly sent to some kind of re-education camp where than can be waterboarded daily and taught the errors of their filthy mind crimes. Only when they have shown some repentance, been fully-reprogrammed as a compliant managerial drone, agreed to a strategically placed Union Jack tattoo & successfully learnt the words to 'Things Can Only Can Better' should they be re-allowed into society. The markets could become spooked at the very existence of such people.

[Jiminy Cricket]

That's your evidence?

The Prince Harry thing really was a joke . “Harry can’t actually fly a helicopter … He tried to pass the helicopter exam about four times and he couldn’t get through it at all so he always goes for the co-pilot. So he just sits there going ‘vroom vroom’.” This alludes to the reports of Eton having to help him cheat to pass his exams (https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2005/may/10/schools.alevels2004#:~:text=Former%20teachers%20of%20Prince%20Harry,a%20tribunal%20was%20told%20yesterday.&text=2005%2006.12%20EDT-,Former%20teachers%20of%20Prince%20Harry%20at%20Eton%20College%20helped%20him,a%20tribunal%20was%20told%20yesterday.)

The Roald Dahl thing is about as mild as you get get. But the Tories twisted what she posted to call it misogyinist, when it was nothing of the sort.

I'll give you the 'token ghetto boy' as being stupid.

Of course, 'stupid'! Dent Coad, not you, NR.

She was picking pointless public fights about Prince Harry which would do nothing to help her when electioneering (moderately stupid); describing the PM as 'ugly', however she couched her words, is hardly politic (stupid); and she called a black MP a 'token ghetto boy' (fucking stupid) - and the big mouthed idiot did this publicly via Twitter (moronic and totally fucking objectionable).

All of that seems pretty damn tame by the daily standards of cruelty, idiotcy and malevolence that is British political life. Continues reading wikipedia entry...

Dent Coad supported Jeremy Corbyn in the 2016 Labour leadership election.[31] She identifies as a socialist and was a member of the Socialist Campaign Group of Labour MPs during her time in parliament.[32]

Ah. Bingo.

These people need booting out one by one, or possibly sent to some kind of re-education camp where than can be waterboarded daily and taught the errors of their filthy mind crimes. Only when they have shown some repentance, been fully-reprogrammed as a compliant managerial drone, agreed to a strategically placed Union Jack tattoo & successfully learnt the words to 'Things Can Only Can Better' should they be re-allowed into society. The markets could become spooked at the very existence of such people.

Are you suggesting that Dent Coad, as a supporter of Corbyn, should be excused this nonsense? Because it sure seems that way.

[Father Ted]

No, I'm suggesting 'this nonsense' is a nonsense. It's just about booting out anyone on the left, using whatever justification is at hand. And what little I know of her she's hardly any kind of radical. I don't particularly care either way, it's not my constituency.

The ghetto comment is offensive and someone should have bollocked her for that. From the inane idiocy I see online from other MP's none of this is in any way unusual.

[Nobby Reserve]

No, I'm suggesting 'this nonsense' is a nonsense. It's just about booting out anyone on the left, using whatever justification is at hand. And what little I know of her she's hardly any kind of radical. I don't particularly care either way, it's not my constituency.

The ghetto comment is offensive and someone should have bollocked her for that. From the inane idiocy I see online from other MP's none of this is in any way unusual.

Agree with everything you've said (and in your previous post)

If the local CLP had voted it, then that's how grassroots Labour is supposed to work. But this seems to be a dictat from the central party HQ.


As an aside, did anyone see the Labour guy flounder pathetically on Newsnight last night? He was Truss-level bad. James Murray, Shadow Financial Secretary to the Treasury.

A look at his Wiki:

Murray was born in Hammersmith to parents Geoffrey and Lynne Murray. His mother Lynne was a Labour councillor for Cleveland ward in Ealing from 2014 to 2018. He grew up in North Ealing, attending a private school, before studying PPE at Wadham College, Oxford. Murray graduated with a BA First Class Honours degree in 2004. Served ten years as an Islington Councillor.

London-centric party apparatchik suit.

[classycarra]

The ghetto comment is offensive and someone should have bollocked her for that. From the inane idiocy I see online from other MP's none of this is in any way unusual.

It is, as is her support for a statement that suggested 'Israel disgraces all Jews worldwide'

By the way she's not an MP, so perhaps we can all appreciate nipping this in the bud before a general election.

There was another prospective candidate in London who wasn't allowed to stand for selection announced this week, but since they're lower profile (not been an MP before) it's been less reported. Maurice McLeod in Wandsworth. Not familiar with the guy, but a glance at his record shows that he walked out of a council meeting before a vote to adopt the IHRA definition of antisemitism to the council’s codes of conduct. A rather suspect choice for someone who brands themselves as an "anti racist" campaigner.

No, I'm suggesting 'this nonsense' is a nonsense. It's just about booting out anyone on the left, using whatever justification is at hand. And what little I know of her she's hardly any kind of radical. I don't particularly care either way, it's not my constituency.

If Dent Coad isn't really a staunch/radical leftie, then does that suggest it might just not be about booting anyone on the left out, and possibly just trying to find more appropriate candidates who haven't got her record of saying unsavoury things about jewish people and black men?

[PatriotScouser]

I didn't want to derail/disrespect this thread and it's intentions to positivity but just to ab-so-lutely clarify.

It's proven she is an absolute antisemite sympathising piece of work. Or is inviting that antisemite Kerri-Anne Mendoza to CLP meetings not classified as being sympathetic for antisemites.

Nothing to do with her being a 'socialist' or on 'the left' ALL to do with hanging around with antisemites.

[filopastry]

In any case its hardly every candidate being blocked, in Chingford and Woodford Green we ended up with Faiza Shaheen again and I can't exactly say I'm thrilled with that, but she got through the process in spite of a few dodgy points in her past.

Although admittedly she had to cosplay as a centrist to reel in a few of the gullible to do it!

[Kenny's Jacket]

It is, as is her support for a statement that suggested 'Israel disgraces all Jews worldwide'

By the way she's not an MP, so perhaps we can all appreciate nipping this in the bud before a general election.

There was another prospective candidate in London who wasn't allowed to stand for selection announced this week, but since they're lower profile (not been an MP before) it's been less reported. Maurice McLeod in Wandsworth. Not familiar with the guy, but a glance at his record shows that he walked out of a council meeting before a vote to adopt the IHRA definition of antisemitism to the council’s codes of conduct. A rather suspect choice for someone who brands themselves as an "anti racist" campaigner.
 If Dent Coad isn't really a staunch/radical leftie, then does that suggest it might just not be about booting anyone on the left out, and possibly just trying to find more appropriate candidates who haven't got her record of saying unsavoury things about jewish people and black men?

What unsavoury thing has she said about Jewsish people

[Nobby Reserve]

<<< deleted, as I know the way the mods lean on this and don't want to be responsible for getting the thread blocked >>>

[classycarra]

What unsavoury thing has she said about Jewsish people

I quoted it above and PatriotScouser has shared a bit of info I didn't realise about Kerri-Anne Mendoza - who is, to put it politely, a terrible and bigoted person

[Kenny's Jacket]

I quoted it above and PatriotScouser has shared a bit of info I didn't realise about Kerri-Anne Mendoza - who is, to put it politely, a terrible and bigoted person

but that wasn't a comment about jewish people, it was a comment about Israel.  Dent Coad also never made the comments, the comments were made by another person who is Jewish.  Dent Coad liked the comments on Facebook. 

[classycarra]

but that wasn't a comment about jewish people, it was a comment about Israel.  Dent Coad also never made the comments, the comments were made by another person who is Jewish.  Dent Coad liked the comments on Facebook. 

Yes she declared her support for the statement, as I said in my post.

If you are not sure why it's not a nice way to generalise people by the religion and/or ethnicity in such a way, I'd highly recommend seeking out some of redmarks posts on this topic. He and Zeb explained the nuances exhaustively and in good faith, which is sometimes hard on this topic unfortunately - especially as some can feel quite defensive.

Disagree with your first sentence though, the statement clearly concerns both Israel and jewish people. I guess I just don't understand what the state of Israel's actions have to do with all jewish people, and I don't think it's very reasonable to hold unrelated accountable for a state. It's quite easy to avoid making such generalisations.

[Kenny's Jacket]

Yes she declared her support for the statement, as I said in my post.

If you are not sure why it's not a nice way to generalise people by the religion and/or ethnicity in such a way, I'd highly recommend seeking out some of redmarks posts on this topic. He and Zeb explained the nuances exhaustively and in good faith, which is sometimes hard on this topic unfortunately - especially as some can feel quite defensive.

Disagree with your first sentence though, the statement clearly concerns both Israel and jewish people. I guess I just don't understand what the state of Israel's actions have to do with all jewish people, and I don't think it's very reasonable to hold unrelated accountable for a state. It's quite easy to avoid making such generalisations.

We can agree that one shouldnt tell an entire race how to feel,  But the unsavoury comment was about Israrel. 

The comment from Earl Okin, was unfortunate, I guess as a jew, he thought he could make them. A definite error of judgement.
but for you to accuse Dent Coad of "having a record of saying  unsavoury things about Jewish people" isnt accurate.

[Yorkykopite]

She sounds like a moron and the Labour party is probably best shot of her. But, really, there are much bigger things to worry about. The day is long gone since people like Dent Coad could get traction inside the party.

[Nobby Reserve]

The day is long gone since people like Dent Coad could get traction inside the party.

Thank goodness. The Labour Party can now return to following neoliberal Torynomics without pesky leftists trying to advance absurd concepts like wealth redistribution and well-funded public services.

[Yorkykopite]

Thank goodness. The Labour Party can now return to following neoliberal Torynomics without pesky leftists trying to advance absurd concepts like wealth redistribution and well-funded public services.

I think you've possibly quoted the wrong post Nobby?

No one in the Labour party has ever been banned for wanting what is, after all, Labour party policy. It's the nutty stuff that people take objection to.

[Gili Gulu]

Thank goodness. The Labour Party can now return to following neoliberal Torynomics without pesky leftists trying to advance absurd concepts like wealth redistribution and well-funded public services.

Are you calling Gordon Brown a Tory? Really? He was behind more policies that distributed wealth and funded more public services than any member of Momentum ever has or is ever likely to. As was Tony Blair for that matter.

I wonder how many people who complain about "Tory-lite" New Labour politics are rather more upset about people disagreeing with them in a Labour Party meeting and having their noses put out of joint, than the fact that ordinary people are having to pay abhominations like the Bedroom Tax.

[classycarra]

We can agree that one shouldnt tell an entire race how to feel,  But the unsavoury comment was about Israrel. 

The comment from Earl Okin, was unfortunate, I guess as a jew, he thought he could make them. A definite error of judgement.
but for you to accuse Dent Coad of "having a record of saying  unsavoury things about Jewish people" isnt accurate.

Weird thing to go to bat for. Firstly that's not a quote and I didn't say that, so your starting position that I'm being inaccurate is slightly off. Secondly, you seem to be playing dumb about what liking a political message means. If you don't think it's endorsement, fine. She clearly believed that was implicitly though, hence apologising and making an excuse.

Let me offer a clearer position for my original post, with an identical meaning - just with the words lined up more in line with your preference: "...got a record of saying unsavoury things about black men and offering endorsement to people saying unsavoury things concerning jewish people needing to feel accountable for actions of a nation state..."

I assume we don't need to discuss any further why it wasn't a good thing she said what she did about Shaun Bailey?

As yorky says, it's just one numpty not being able to stand. The crocodile tears from some online haven't provided much substance to suggest she's a big loss, and we haven't exactly been inundated with people speaking positively of her. She was saying last on Newsnight last year that the labour party stands for nothing, so I don't think the party seems to be losing a particularly great campaigner (although she's said she supports and campaigns for all leaders and always has, so she should still be out and about).

[Kenny's Jacket]

Weird thing to go to bat for. Firstly that's not a quote and I didn't say that, so your starting position that I'm being inaccurate is slightly off.

her record of saying unsavoury things about jewish

Let me offer a clearer position for my original post, with an identical meaning - just with the words lined up more in line with your preference: "...got a record of saying unsavoury things about black men and offering endorsement to people saying unsavoury things concerning jewish people needing to feel accountable for actions of a nation state..."

Much better

I assume we don't need to discuss any further why it wasn't a good thing she said what she did about Shaun Bailey?

We dont

[Nobby Reserve]

Are you calling Gordon Brown a Tory? Really? He was behind more policies that distributed wealth and funded more public services than any member of Momentum ever has or is ever likely to. As was Tony Blair for that matter.

I wonder how many people who complain about "Tory-lite" New Labour politics are rather more upset about people disagreeing with them in a Labour Party meeting and having their noses put out of joint, than the fact that ordinary people are having to pay abhominations like the Bedroom Tax.

I'm not a member of the Labour Party.

I can, though, review policy. Brown followed a broadly centre-right/Tory-lite economic model. During his time as Chancellor, Labour:

Lowered [progressive] direct taxes and raised [regressive] taxes.
Continued to privatise public services
Ramped-up PFI/PPP (including the transfer of staff into exploitative private sector providers)
Refused to repeall the Thatcher's draconian anti-union legislation
Continued to suppress public sector pay rises below average wage rises most years they were in power
Did next to nothing to address the enormous level of tax-dodging by the wealthy, predominatly using the British Overseas Territories and Crown Dependencies
Failed to re-regulate the City (leading to the enormous UK impacts of the GFC)
Oversaw a rise in the GINI coefficient (which measures the gap between the richest and poorest)

That's off the top of my head.

Did they also do some good stuff? Of course!

Are they prefereable to to a Tory government? Without a doubt

But 'not quite as bad as a Tory government' isn't anything to celebrate. And isn't going to address the core problems that this country has faced since the 70's, which predominatly arise from too unequal a split of the proceeds of all our labours.

[classycarra]

What are Dent Coad's achievements in turning around inequalities and funding public services? Sounds like she's done a lot, given your rancour that she can't keep it up as a prospective MP for Labour.

[oldfordie]

I'm not a member of the Labour Party.

I can, though, review policy. Brown followed a broadly centre-right/Tory-lite economic model. During his time as Chancellor, Labour:

Lowered [progressive] direct taxes and raised [regressive] taxes.
Continued to privatise public services
Ramped-up PFI/PPP (including the transfer of staff into exploitative private sector providers)
Refused to repeall the Thatcher's draconian anti-union legislation
Continued to suppress public sector pay rises below average wage rises most years they were in power
Did next to nothing to address the enormous level of tax-dodging by the wealthy, predominatly using the British Overseas Territories and Crown Dependencies
Failed to re-regulate the City (leading to the enormous UK impacts of the GFC)
Oversaw a rise in the GINI coefficient (which measures the gap between the richest and poorest)

That's off the top of my head.

Did they also do some good stuff? Of course!

Are they prefereable to to a Tory government? Without a doubt

But 'not quite as bad as a Tory government' isn't anything to celebrate. And isn't going to address the core problems that this country has faced since the 70's, which predominatly arise from too unequal a split of the proceeds of all our labours.

They did more than just some good stuff, they helped 10s of millions in a practical way. from children to the old. the list is long and it's been posted many times but the acknowladgment seems to be yeah they did some good, bit better than the Torys, , these are the things that matter, these are the things we really need to cope in all sorts of ways, the things that actually improve the lives of all us practically.
Your looking at it from a ideological point of view, judging every policy in isolation (eg Union Laws) without considering why they followed certain policys, why they were forced to follow certain policys. I can think of a few things they did I hated but their heart was in the right place so I supported them.
Telling people the Labour party are just the same as the Torys or begrudgingly admitting they did some good actually rebounded on the left at the last 2 elections. years of telling people the Labour party ignored you suddenly changed to vote Labour. no surprise to hear many young people telling Momentum campaigners they weren't going to bother voting as Labour had done nothing for them. I doubt if any of them knew the slightest thing about politics but that was their view.

[Father Ted]

The idea that the British public rejected Labour in 2010 and onwards because those influential and popular leftwing voices we were all drowning in back then told them to do so is fanciful. The left didn't tell those people Labour did nothing for them, some lefties might have said that, but no-one was listening apart from the already converted. Voters made up their own minds and acted accordingly, either through switching to other parties or switching off entirely.

[oldfordie]

The idea that the British public rejected Labour in 2010 and onwards because those influential and popular leftwing voices we were all drowning in back then told them to do so is fanciful. The left didn't tell those people Labour did nothing for them, some lefties might have said that, but no-one was listening apart from the already converted. Voters made up their own minds and acted accordingly, either through switching to other parties or switching off entirely.

Yes they have, do we really have to bring up examples of it happeing. we've heard it time and time again on here, the fallout is people who know sod all about politics are given a opinion, they hear the labour party did nothing for them, thats all they know so they don't bother voting.
I mean you even had the leader of the Labour party making a video in 2019, 6 months before a GE telling people that governments over the last 40yrs have ignored them. those words were aimed at the Labour party, he was saying the last  Labour government ignored you, in other words, the last Labour government never helped you, what a stupid thing to say, 6 months later he's asking people to vote Labour. this hurts the left as well as the center left, you can't keep saying the  Labour party aren't much better than the Torys for years then get a left wing leader and suddenly start asking people to vote Labour and expect them to get out and vote.

[Kenny's Jacket]

the last 40yrs have ignored them. those words were aimed at the Labour party, he was saying the last  Labour government ignored you, in other words, the last Labour government never helped you, what a stupid thing to say, 6 months later he's asking people to vote Labour. this hurts the left as well as the center left, you can't keep saying the  Labour party aren't much better than the Torys for years then get a left wing leader and suddenly start asking people to vote Labour and expect them to get out and vote.

Isnt a better interpretation more that the leader is saying we are different to the previous centrist Labour government, we will put you first etc etc and making a dividing lined between the party of 2019 to the one in 2000's

Same thing is happening now. The current leadership is keen to distance them selves from the previous one.

 

[oldfordie]

Isnt a better interpretation more that the leader is saying we are different to the previous centrist Labour government, we will put you first etc etc and making a dividing lined between the party of 2019 to the one in 2000's

Same thing is happening now. The current leadership is keen to distance them selves from the previous one.

Not really, this wasn't a interview when he might have put things wrong unintentionally, this was a speech in a video he posted on the internet and he could have made the point you make but he chose not too, the intention was clear,  lump the Labour party in with Thatchers government by saying that governments over the last 40yrs ignored you. 

[reddebs]

Wow just 2 pages and it's already the same tired arguments.

Round and round we go 😔

[Father Ted]

Yes they have, do we really have to bring up examples of it happeing. we've heard it time and time again on here, the fallout is people who know sod all about politics are given a opinion, they hear the labour party did nothing for them, thats all they know so they don't bother voting.
I mean you even had the leader of the Labour party making a video in 2019, 6 months before a GE telling people that governments over the last 40yrs have ignored them. those words were aimed at the Labour party, he was saying the last  Labour government ignored you, in other words, the last Labour government never helped you, what a stupid thing to say, 6 months later he's asking people to vote Labour. this hurts the left as well as the center left, you can't keep saying the  Labour party aren't much better than the Torys for years then get a left wing leader and suddenly start asking people to vote Labour and expect them to get out and vote.

I disagree, people came to the 'they're all the same' conclusion independently of whatever the left were saying, no one gives a shit about the left anyway aside from the Corbyn years when it got a brief starring role as public enemy no.1 & cause of all our ills.

People with no interest in politics aren't bothering looking through obscure political blogs, reading the endless rolling arguments in here or listening to Corbyn's Party Political broadcasts.

I'm agreeing with your point that there are difference's between political parties and there are, were and will be difference between Labour and Tories. It's not a massive chasm or anything and Labour's pitch is that they'll be more competent managers of the system than the Tories, which certainly looks plausible to voters given the current chaos.

[Red-Soldier]

Wow just 2 pages and it's already the same tired arguments.

Round and round we go 😔

Yep.

Isn't it sad.

[TepidT2O]

Never let it be said that I’m always right…

Ok… do say that

Err no we can’t!