Topic: Labour Thread

[Lusty]

In what way mate?

The Labour party is already a coalition and not a very stable one at that!  The only think keeping the party together is the need to fight elections as one party.

If PR came in I think the Labour party would end up splitting.  This is all true for the Conservatives as well.

[Black Bull Nova]

I'm not so sure about that, everyone assumes it will lead to permanent Lib/Lab coalitions but you could easily see a trade union style 'Lexit' party finding cause with a UKIP style anti-immigration party for example.

I am in favour of PR for what it's worth.

It would allow other parties and viewpoints to emerge and have a voice

[killer-heels]

It would allow other parties and viewpoints to emerge and have a voice

 Do we want that?

[Black Bull Nova]

Do we want that?

Depends what you think of the concept of democracy and where the boundaries lie.


Those voices exist now but are bounded by the 3 main parties.

[killer-heels]

Depends what you think of the concept of democracy and where the boundaries lie.


Those voices exist now but are bounded by the 3 main parties.

Yeah but some are ugly (really ugly) views.

[Robinred]

I think that bringing in PR would be the end of the Labour Party.  So I can understand why the leader of the Labour party would be against it.  It's the right thing for the country though.Honestly In think this election is too important.  I'm fine with a safety first approach this time around.  It's been 12 years of spectacular destruction by this government and we need to get them out and spend at least one term just putting all the fires out.  After that we can get a bit more imaginative.

Agree entirely. And whichever topic it is that folk wish Starmer was more forthright on, his first objective should never be forgotten - get the Tories out. If that means ‘playing the game’, telling little white porkies, not divulging plans for radical reforms (other than those revealed at Party conference) then good; that’s been the Tories’ M.O since time immemorial.

The time for complaining about any Starmer-led government’s lack of socialism/radicalism is down the line. Until then he’s right to avoid trip wires imho.

[Dr. Beaker]

Agree entirely. And whichever topic it is that folk wish Starmer was more forthright on, his first objective should never be forgotten - get the Tories out. If that means ‘playing the game’, telling little white porkies, not divulging plans for radical reforms (other than those revealed at Party conference) then good; that’s been the Tories’ M.O since time immemorial.

The time for complaining about any Starmer-led government’s lack of socialism/radicalism is down the line. Until then he’s right to avoid trip wires imho.

[Machae]

Agree entirely. And whichever topic it is that folk wish Starmer was more forthright on, his first objective should never be forgotten - get the Tories out. If that means ‘playing the game’, telling little white porkies, not divulging plans for radical reforms (other than those revealed at Party conference) then good; that’s been the Tories’ M.O since time immemorial.

The time for complaining about any Starmer-led government’s lack of socialism/radicalism is down the line. Until then he’s right to avoid trip wires imho.

Yeah I get that and fully understand that approach, my only fear is that they only last one term and then Tories get in and make things even more difficult to remove.

[Cali]

So what the thoughts on what labour are doing to Ian Byrne ya know there trying to get rid of a good left wing/socialist mp who’s well liked and has done loads of good for his constituents for a right wing peice of shit

[ianburns252]

So what the thoughts on what labour are doing to Ian Byrne ya know there trying to get rid of a good left wing/socialist mp who’s well liked and has done loads of good for his constituents for a right wing peice of shit

Considering this was triggered by the local branches of the party, not the PLP, it would appear to be local members deciding that he does not represent them.

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/liverpool-councillor-challenge-ian-byrne-25378291

I agree with you that by all accounts he has been fantastic local issues, and also has done so much for the Hillsborough campaign but the voices trying to get rid of him are local voices not this imaginary Behemoth lead by Keith that your post portrays it as.

[Kenny's Jacket]

Thats bad, hopefully he will get re-selected. 

[ljycb]

Considering this was triggered by the local branches of the party, not the PLP, it would appear to be local members deciding that he does not represent them.

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/liverpool-councillor-challenge-ian-byrne-25378291

I agree with you that by all accounts he has been fantastic local issues, and also has done so much for the Hillsborough campaign but the voices trying to get rid of him are local voices not this imaginary Behemoth lead by Keith that your post portrays it as.

The problem Ian's facing is that a lot of the local members who supported him in the first instance have left the party since Starmer became leader, so the majority of the local CLP members who get to decide now simply don't like him because of his associations with Corbyn. It may sound like I'm generalising when I say that, but I'm not - I have lived in the West Derby constituency all of my life and have known a lot of these people for a number of years.

[Cali]

The problem Ian's facing is that a lot of the local members who supported him in the first instance have left the party since Starmer became leader, so the majority of the local CLP members who get to decide now simply don't like him because of his associations with Corbyn. It may sound like I'm generalising when I say that, but I'm not - I have lived in the West Derby constituency all of my life and have known a lot of these people for a number of years.

No only that but when the vote happened loads of people didn’t get to vote who wanted to and who should have and guess what they were Ian supporters there’s some underhand tactics going on there atm and if you think non of it’s down to starmer ya know sun writing starmer you’ve got your head in the sand

[Andy @ Allerton!]

No only that but when the vote happened loads of people didn’t get to vote who wanted to and who should have and guess what they were Ian supporters there’s some underhand tactics going on there atm and if you think non of it’s down to starmer ya know sun writing starmer you’ve got your head in the sand

Down  to you to provide hard evidence then isn't it?

If there is this global conspiracy led by Starmer and you have proof of it then post it here.

What has Starmer writing in the S*n got to do with this?

Personally as a Liverpool fan that lives in Liverpool, I'm completely against the S*n - absolutely. But the Labour Party isn't just about Liverpool - it's a National Party that has to appeal to the National voter base to be elected.

The S*n (Bizarrely) is read by plenty of Labour voters and potential Labour voters. Do you think that it's a good idea to alienate as many people in the UK as you can, or do you think it's a good idea to try and get as many people to vote for Labour as possible and get rid of the Tories?


This shows you which readers voted for which party (from 2015)

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2015/06/08/general-election-2015-how-britain-really-voted

24% of S*n readers vote Labour. It is possible that the other readers could also be swayed/influenced/persuaded to vote Labour.

An estimated 32.8 million people read the S*n or articles from the S*n out of a country of 68.7M

[Cali]

Down  to you to provide hard evidence then isn't it?

If there is this global conspiracy led by Starmer and you have proof of it then post it here.

What has Starmer writing in the S*n got to do with this?

Personally as a Liverpool fan that lives in Liverpool, I'm completely against the S*n - absolutely. But the Labour Party isn't just about Liverpool - it's a National Party that has to appeal to the National voter base to be elected.

The S*n (Bizarrely) is read by plenty of Labour voters and potential Labour voters. Do you think that it's a good idea to alienate as many people in the UK as you can, or do you think it's a good idea to try and get as many people to vote for Labour as possible and get rid of the Tories?


This shows you which readers voted for which party (from 2015)

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2015/06/08/general-election-2015-how-britain-really-voted

24% of S*n readers vote Labour. It is possible that the other readers could also be swayed/influenced/persuaded to vote Labour.

An estimated 32.8 million people read the S*n or articles from the S*n out of a country of 68.7M

No it’s not up to me to provide anything, I know by what’s happening in west derby and the Labour Party as a whole there’s a purge of anything remotely to the left of centre plus I also have no intention of voting labour ever again I only put them very slightly below the tories and I think talk of a labour landslide are far fetched it’ll be close between two abhorrent parties I’ll probably not vote or vote for an independent not that it’ll matter as I’m in a safe labour seat but here in Liverpool where I also live mate they’ve been horrific for us so I want them wiped out as a party altogether and I can’t believe your trying to justify him writing in the sun coz as a resident of this city who supports Liverpool no way in hell am I getting behind someone who does

[reddebs]

And this is why I don't believe labour will win the next election despite what the polls might be saying.

[TepidT2O]

No it’s not up to me to provide anything, I know by what’s happening in west derby and the Labour Party as a whole there’s a purge of anything remotely to the left of centre plus I also have no intention of voting labour ever again I only put them very slightly below the tories and I think talk of a labour landslide are far fetched it’ll be close between two abhorrent parties I’ll probably not vote or vote for an independent not that it’ll matter as I’m in a safe labour seat but here in Liverpool where I also live mate they’ve been horrific for us so I want them wiped out as a party altogether and I can’t believe your trying to justify him writing in the sun coz as a resident of this city who supports Liverpool no way in hell am I getting behind someone who does

For some one who has no intention of voting for Labour, it is perhaps surprising that nearly all of your posts on RAWK are about them.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

No it’s not up to me to provide anything, I know by what’s happening in west derby and the Labour Party as a whole there’s a purge of anything remotely to the left of centre plus I also have no intention of voting labour ever again I only put them very slightly below the tories and I think talk of a labour landslide are far fetched it’ll be close between two abhorrent parties I’ll probably not vote or vote for an independent not that it’ll matter as I’m in a safe labour seat but here in Liverpool where I also live mate they’ve been horrific for us so I want them wiped out as a party altogether and I can’t believe your trying to justify him writing in the sun coz as a resident of this city who supports Liverpool no way in hell am I getting behind someone who does

"No it’s not up to me to provide anything" - well you are claiming something, so as you said it's so widespread and obvious then should be easy to provide that evidence. I think we'd all be interested.

“I also have no intention of voting labour ever again I only put them very slightly below the tories” - well that’s your choice. I guess you’re of the ilk that if people don’t exactly believe what you believe then they are all right-wing. I would also guess that you think centrists are also ‘right wing’? If so, that’s fine, you can believe what you like, but it’s not very plausible is it?

“two abhorrent parties” - what’s abhorrent about Labour? I think there are quite a few things you can level at the Tories and there is a thread with pages of evidence towards that end.

“I can’t believe your trying to justify him writing in the sun coz as a resident of this city who supports Liverpool no way in hell am I getting behind someone who does" - that's fair enough and I understand it. I said personally I'm against the S*n. Is the Labour Party all about Liverpool or is it a national party?

[Red-Soldier]

For some one who has no intention of voting for Labour, it is perhaps surprising that nearly all of your posts on RAWK are about them.

 

[Cali]

For some one who has no intention of voting for Labour, it is perhaps surprising that nearly all of your posts on RAWK are about them.

So are those posting in the Tory thread gonna vote for them or are you gonna throw the same accusation at them

[So… Howard Philips]

Time for an Andy Poll on how long it is till this thread gets closed, again?

[Cali]

"No it’s not up to me to provide anything" - well you are claiming something, so as you said it's so widespread and obvious then should be easy to provide that evidence. I think we'd all be interested.

“I also have no intention of voting labour ever again I only put them very slightly below the tories” - well that’s your choice. I guess you’re of the ilk that if people don’t exactly believe what you believe then they are all right-wing. I would also guess that you think centrists are also ‘right wing’? If so, that’s fine, you can believe what you like, but it’s not very plausible is it?

“two abhorrent parties” - what’s abhorrent about Labour? I think there are quite a few things you can level at the Tories and there is a thread with pages of evidence towards that end.

“I can’t believe your trying to justify him writing in the sun coz as a resident of this city who supports Liverpool no way in hell am I getting behind someone who does" - that's fair enough and I understand it. I said personally I'm against the S*n. Is the Labour Party all about Liverpool or is it a national party?

I’m not a private investigator/lawyer etc it’s a footy forum and I’m either offering my opinion or it’s things I’ve heard which when you join the dots it all makes sense. to be honest I think the Labour Party needs to split as it was the same but the opposite way round under corbyn only difference is he was actually going to make the majority of the countries lives better as it is labour has a right winger in charge who is part of the establishment they don’t care about us working class there job is to keep the status quo and neo liberalism rolling on for a few more years so the richest can carry on getting richer while the rest of us struggle.

[Cali]

And this is why I don't believe labour will win the next election despite what the polls might be saying.

I think it’ll be a hung parliament but who knows now there joining with the tories in Scotland to try to get rid of the snp still think they’ll struggle for a majority and it’ll only be with the Lib Dems or or someone how they get into power

[Kenny's Jacket]

Down  to you to provide hard evidence then isn't it?

If there is this global conspiracy led by Starmer and you have proof of it then post it here.

Not sure why you're talking about conspiracys

Its widely accepted that memnbership  grew when Corbyn took
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/08/jeremy-corbyn-stands-defiant-after-labour-membership-surge

and then dropped when Starmer took over/Corbyn left
https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/politics/rachel-reeves-says-losing-labour-members-is-a-good-thing-as-party-shakes-corbynite-past-308797/

[So… Howard Philips]

Not sure why you're talking about conspiracys

Its widely accepted that memnbership  grew when Corbyn took
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/08/jeremy-corbyn-stands-defiant-after-labour-membership-surge

and then dropped when Starmer took over/Corbyn left
https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/politics/rachel-reeves-says-losing-labour-members-is-a-good-thing-as-party-shakes-corbynite-past-308797/

 Urious as to where all those departed members went. For people who are wrapped up in politics you would assume they have found another party?

[Kenny's Jacket]

Urious as to where all those departed members went. For people who are wrapped up in politics you would assume they have found another party?

No idea mate, Maybe they arent interested in parties near the centre ground.  I was just helping Andy in his search for evidence

Hows the Chester by election shaping up, we should hold that right?

[Andy @ Allerton!]

I’m not a private investigator/lawyer etc it’s a footy forum and I’m either offering my opinion or it’s things I’ve heard which when you join the dots it all makes sense. to be honest I think the Labour Party needs to split as it was the same but the opposite way round under corbyn only difference is he was actually going to make the majority of the countries lives better as it is labour has a right winger in charge who is part of the establishment they don’t care about us working class there job is to keep the status quo and neo liberalism rolling on for a few more years so the richest can carry on getting richer while the rest of us struggle.

Have you any evidence whatsoever that Starmer is a 'right-winger'

Again, should be easy for you to provide as you seem very confident that this is the case.

From the work he's done in his professional career, his upbringing, background and private life and from the way he's been involved in the Labour Party, it seems clear to me that he's a left-leaning centrist.

How you get from that to 'right-winger' is something that doesn't seem to tally up**


**Again - as I suggested before, perhaps you see anyone that isn't 'very left' as automatically 'right wing' - which would explain your stance..?

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Not sure why you're talking about conspiracys

Its widely accepted that memnbership  grew when Corbyn took
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/08/jeremy-corbyn-stands-defiant-after-labour-membership-surge

and then dropped when Starmer took over/Corbyn left
https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/politics/rachel-reeves-says-losing-labour-members-is-a-good-thing-as-party-shakes-corbynite-past-308797/

I might be a bit thick, but what has the membership got to do with the purge apparantly enacted by Starmer?

I think quite a few people (Rightfully) gave Corbyn loads of credit for mobilising and engaging and recruiting people to the cause. These people appeared to care more about Corbyn than the Labour Party and have since departed.


Personally, I'm sick of 'Personality Politics' - I don't want to be 'enthused' about a leader of the Party. I want someone to do a good job, challenge the Tories and get the country back to where it was before the Tories wrecked it. That's a long, long battle and personality alone would never cut it IMHO.

[rob1966]

Urious as to where all those departed members went. For people who are wrapped up in politics you would assume they have found another party?

Didn't loads of Tories join just to vote for Jeremy? I know there was one Tory on Evos old site OnTheKop who joined just to vote for him in the leadership votes and he claimed it was a wide spread thing

[rob1966]

I might be a bit thick, but what has the membership got to do with the purge apparantly enacted by Starmer?

I think quite a few people (Rightfully) gave Corbyn loads of credit for mobilising and engaging and recruiting people to the cause. These people appeared to care more about Corbyn than the Labour Party and have since departed.


Personally, I'm sick of 'Personality Politics' - I don't want to be 'enthused' about a leader of the Party. I want someone to do a good job, challenge the Tories and get the country back to where it was before the Tories wrecked it. That's a long, long battle and personality alone would never cut it IMHO.

Exactly - we need a leader, not a fucking reality TV star

[Kenny's Jacket]

I might be a bit thick, but what has the membership got to do with the purge apparantly enacted by Starmer?

I think quite a few people (Rightfully) gave Corbyn loads of credit for mobilising and engaging and recruiting people to the cause. These people appeared to care more about Corbyn than the Labour Party and have since departed.


Personally, I'm sick of 'Personality Politics' - I don't want to be 'enthused' about a leader of the Party. I want someone to do a good job, challenge the Tories and get the country back to where it was before the Tories wrecked it. That's a long, long battle and personality alone would never cut it IMHO.

.
I was showing that the membership who would support candidates like Tarry and Byrne have left the party. Some of their own volition and some from being suspended, I suspect those suspended were on the left
I feel for Byrne has he seems a really good bloke, I hope he wins the nomination

Personally, I'd like a leader who enthuses me and does a good job.

[So… Howard Philips]

No idea mate, Maybe they arent interested in parties near the centre ground.  I was just helping Andy in his search for evidence

Hows the Chester by election shaping up, we should hold that right?

Labour has selected a local councillor and resident, the Tories a nurse! Maybe she works at the Nuffield. 

Should be straightforward unless Matheson’s moments of madness turn voters off.

[So… Howard Philips]

.
I was showing that the membership who would support candidates like Tarry and Byrne have left the party. Some of their own volition and some from being suspended, I suspect those suspended were on the left
I feel for Byrne has he seems a really good bloke, I hope he wins the nomination

Personally, I'd like a leader who enthuses me and does a good job.

I feel sorry for Byrne who does seem a decent bloke. It’s a bit rich though for members who selected him to leave him in this position though by jacking it in.

I’m no huge fan of Corbyn but at least a majority of his constituency members have stuck by him through thick and thin.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

.
I was showing that the membership who would support candidates like Tarry and Byrne have left the party. Some of their own volition and some from being suspended, I suspect those suspended were on the left
I feel for Byrne has he seems a really good bloke, I hope he wins the nomination

Personally, I'd like a leader who enthuses me and does a good job.

If you had a choice of a leader who was absolutely incredible, said all the right things, pushed forward with an anti-neoliberal agenda and who promised to tax the rich and the corporations and the billionaires til they squeaked and promised to re-nationalise everything and set up a socialist utopia in the UK but never got into power

or.. someone that was a bit dull but measured, pragmatic and got into power to pull the centre back to the centre and start to make a real difference in peoples lives to being to pull things back to before the Tories last demolition job


Which would you want running the Labour Party?

For me, only people actually in power can actually affect anything.


I know you can argue that you get the first one in and once they are in power they can change the world, but is that realistic in the UK? Has there every been a truly socialist government in power except for the one after World War II that set up the NHS and other amazing things? Would it be possible in this day and age?

If we could have the first one and they could get into power and they could deliver all that then fair enough, but I doubt it's feasible. I've mentioned it before and I'll mention it again - try Democracy 3 (or 4) and try and run the UK as a truly socialist government. It's a real eye-opener and actually shows you all the things you have to consider and how connected they all are.  Certainly made me think about a lot of things in a different way:  https://store.steampowered.com/app/245470/Democracy_3/

[So… Howard Philips]

Exactly - we need a leader, not a fucking reality TV star

Who mentioned Hancock?

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Who mentioned Hancock?

Give it the Scorpion til the end of the season!

[Yorkykopite]

I’m not a private investigator/lawyer etc it’s a footy forum and I’m either offering my opinion or it’s things I’ve heard which when you join the dots it all makes sense. to be honest I think the Labour Party needs to split.

I agree with this.

I think it's sad that you won't vote for anyone in the next election and I'd much prefer you to have a political party and a candidate you can really get behind - someone who totally represents your view. Hopefully those people in the Labour party who think the same as you do will soon get their act together and all resign from the Labour party en masse. What's the point after all - as you say yourself - of working for a party that is only slightly less "abhorrent" than the Tories. They should form their own political party, write their own policies, and stand candidates in a general election. 

The great thing is that they, and you, have a leader waiting on the sidelines who has done the job before. He knows the ropes. Corbyn was told this week that he would never be getting the Labour whip back and that Labour would field a candidate against him in Islington. Why not rally round him instead of just sulking on the sidelines? Resurrect his old policies and revive some of those he wasn't strong enough to insert into the Labour manifesto last time such as unilateral nuclear disarmament. Then the general public would have a genuine left-wing party to vote for instead of the discredited Labour party. We'd all be happy.

[Yorkykopite]

Not sure why you're talking about conspiracys

Its widely accepted that memnbership  grew when Corbyn took
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/08/jeremy-corbyn-stands-defiant-after-labour-membership-surge

and then dropped when Starmer took over/Corbyn left
https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/politics/rachel-reeves-says-losing-labour-members-is-a-good-thing-as-party-shakes-corbynite-past-308797/

I don't think you've understood there Kenny.

You've merely cited the evidence (ie the fall in Labour membership since Starmer took over). We all agree that has happened. The "conspiracy" is the notion that these people have been secretly purged.

At the moment that is just an assertion based on gossip  ("I know someone who knows someone who knows someone who heard.... etc") What we're looking for is hard evidence that the whole thing - the purge - is being planned by Keir Starmer's office.

[reddebs]

This very childish behaviour is a huge reason that labour have struggled to sustain any meaningful representation in parliament.

Too many that can't accept anything but a pure bred, born down the pits, raised on bread and water only type socialists.

Ideology is a great thing to pin your colours to but it rarely wins you the power to make genuine change.

[TepidT2O]

I agree with this.

I think it's sad that you won't vote for anyone in the next election and I'd much prefer you to have a political party and a candidate you can really get behind - someone who totally represents your view. Hopefully those people in the Labour party who think the same as you do will soon get their act together and all resign from the Labour party en masse. What's the point after all - as you say yourself - of working for a party that is only slightly less "abhorrent" than the Tories. They should form their own political party, write their own policies, and stand candidates in a general election. 

The great thing is that they, and you, have a leader waiting on the sidelines who has done the job before. He knows the ropes. Corbyn was told this week that he would never be getting the Labour whip back and that Labour would field a candidate against him in Islington. Why not rally round him instead of just sulking on the sidelines? Resurrect his old policies and revive some of those he wasn't strong enough to insert into the Labour manifesto last time such as unilateral nuclear disarmament. Then the general public would have a genuine left-wing party to vote for instead of the discredited Labour party. We'd all be happy.

The Labour Party needs to slit? Kicking out the socialist campaign group members is doing just this and yet they complain