Author Topic: e-scooters  (Read 30797 times)

Offline CraigDS

  • Lite. Smelt it and dealt it. Worrawhopper.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 61,461
  • YNWA
Re: e-scooters
« Reply #160 on: June 29, 2021, 10:53:39 am »
Doesn't that sort of defeat the point of them somewhat. Did amuse me when sat on a bus seeing someone using their phone to find one on the edge of Garston then just activate it and scoot off.

Yeah it will a little bit they were just littered everywhere and think they were becoming a bit of a hazard.

Online Red Beret

  • Yellow Beret. Wants to sit in the Lobster Pot. Fat-fingered. Key. Boa. Rd. Kille. R. tonunlick! Soggy Knickers King. Bed-Exiting / Grunting / Bending Down / Cum Face Champion 2023.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 51,330
Re: e-scooters
« Reply #161 on: June 29, 2021, 04:09:08 pm »
I see gangs of them clustered together with those weird, silent, flashing lights.  I keep thinking of Day of the Triffids (the original 80s tv show).
I don't always visit Lobster Pot.  But when I do. I sit.

Popcorn's Art

Offline kesey

  • Hippy - Scally - Taoist - Rafiki - Dad - Trichotomist. Hill Climber, David Cassidy Fan Club
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 26,926
  • Truth , Love and Simplicity ♡
Re: e-scooters
« Reply #162 on: June 30, 2021, 12:25:02 pm »
I seen someone in a bad way yesterday on Smithdown. I was coming down Thornycroft and as I approached Smithdown I was one in the road . As I turned some young lad was knocked out on the deck having a fit or something. A few people were running towards him and trying to help. I called  999 and the questions they asked ... fuckin ell.  I was send an ambulance quick love and she was like I need to ask questions first. What happened ? He's been knocked off and it looks bad. Ok. Where ? I told her and said its bad and he is shaking like fuck and he has white stuff pouring out of his nose. Is he epeleptic ? How the fuck Am I meant to know that ? How old is he ? Ah for fucksake love just send an ambulance . The questions went on forever and an ambulance did turn up after a couple of minutes. I hope he is alright.
He who sees himself in all beings and all beings in himself loses all fear.

- The Upanishads.

The heart knows the way. Run in that direction

- Rumi

You are held . You are loved . You are seen  - Some wise fella .

Offline kesey

  • Hippy - Scally - Taoist - Rafiki - Dad - Trichotomist. Hill Climber, David Cassidy Fan Club
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 26,926
  • Truth , Love and Simplicity ♡
Re: e-scooters
« Reply #163 on: June 30, 2021, 02:07:16 pm »
In the Willow having a pint and the staff reckon he didn't make it. I hope they are wrong.
He who sees himself in all beings and all beings in himself loses all fear.

- The Upanishads.

The heart knows the way. Run in that direction

- Rumi

You are held . You are loved . You are seen  - Some wise fella .

Offline AlphaDelta

  • Creepy, geeky, recidivist hose-spotter, checking out the size of your engine as we speak......
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,372
  • People's Republic of Liverpool
Re: e-scooters
« Reply #164 on: July 1, 2021, 09:33:09 am »
In the Willow having a pint and the staff reckon he didn't make it. I hope they are wrong.

Sounds horrible to see that mate, I'd need a pint myself to get my composure. Hopefully the kid pulls through.
"I ask that you believe in this team and believe that together we can achieve great things."

Offline rob1966

  • YORKIE bar-munching, hedgehog-squashing (well-)articulated road-hog-litter-bug. Sleeping With The Enemy. Has felt the wind and shed his anger..... did you know I drive a Jag? Cucking funt!
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 46,263
Re: e-scooters
« Reply #165 on: July 1, 2021, 10:18:51 am »
Paris is threatening to ban them after a woman was killed on a pavement - the rider has been charged with manslaughter

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-57664420

Paris has threatened to ban self-service electric scooters unless safety issues are addressed after the death of a woman struck on the pavement.

Private companies leasing e-scooters in the French capital have been told to limit the speed of the devices and not to provide parking spaces on footpaths.

Earlier this month, a 31-year-old woman died after she was knocked down by an e-scooter rider while walking in Paris.

Police have charged a suspect with manslaughter over her death.

E-scooters have become a popular mode of transport, in part because of their low environmental impact, and rental schemes now operate in more than 100 cities around the world.

In Paris, about 15,000 of the two-wheeled vehicles are now available for hire, at a speed limit of 20km/h (12 mph).

In 2019, the French government introduced rules after hundreds of incidents, including several deaths. Riders are now required to be aged 12 or above, only one rider is permitted per device and scooters are not allowed to be used on the pavement.

On Tuesday, Paris's deputy mayor David Belliard said contracts for self-service e-scooter providers would not be renewed next year unless there was a "significant improvement in the situation and scooters find their place in public space without causing disturbance or additional danger".

Mr Belliard has told operators to limit the speed to a maximum of 10km/h to create "slow zones" where there are often large numbers of pedestrians, Le Parisien reported.

It comes after an Italian woman, named only as Miriam, was hit by an electric scooter while walking in a pedestrianised area near the River Seine in the early hours of Monday 14 June. She fell and hit her head on the pavement, suffering a cardiac arrest.

Divers from the river police patrolling the Seine gave her emergency medical treatment and managed to restart her heart after 30 minutes. She was taken unconscious to hospital, where she remained in a coma until her death two days later.

Two people were riding the scooter at the time of the collision, one of whom - a young female nurse - has been charged with aggravated manslaughter after fleeing the scene, police said.

The laws introduced in 2019 - which include the requirement to wear high visibility clothing and not ride against the flow and traffic - risk a fine of €135 (£116), and up to €1,500 for going over the speed limit.

Meanwhile, dumped scooters have also become a significant problem in Paris, with many being found in the city's parks and squares.

A ban on parking the dockless scooters on pavements has largely gone unheeded despite the threat of a €35 fine.

Some are also being thrown in the River Seine, leading some firms to salvage discarded scooters to try to recycle them where possible.
Jurgen, you made us laugh, you made us cry, you made Liverpool a bastion of invincibilty, now leave us on a high - YNWA

Online ChaChaMooMoo

  • From doubters to believers - Klopp 2015
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,870
  • Justice shall prevail.
Re: e-scooters
« Reply #166 on: July 1, 2021, 11:46:03 am »
What I dont get is..

1. Why are these things even allowed on the pavement? When there is a clear collision between two ingredients, the logical step is to separate them and isolate its usage.

2. Why should limiting its speed be mandatory when studies have shown that a crash that happens at upwards of 7kph could be fatal if the point of contact is one of the critical points on human head?

Offline kesey

  • Hippy - Scally - Taoist - Rafiki - Dad - Trichotomist. Hill Climber, David Cassidy Fan Club
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 26,926
  • Truth , Love and Simplicity ♡
Re: e-scooters
« Reply #167 on: July 1, 2021, 12:45:46 pm »
In the Willow having a pint and the staff reckon he didn't make it. I hope they are wrong.

It's something I'd never like to see again mate. When the barmaid told me that he has died I started crying. Anyway there is nothing on the echo website so I reckon he's ok.

Edit.

Nowt like quoting your own post , is there ?

 ;D
« Last Edit: July 1, 2021, 05:37:04 pm by kesey »
He who sees himself in all beings and all beings in himself loses all fear.

- The Upanishads.

The heart knows the way. Run in that direction

- Rumi

You are held . You are loved . You are seen  - Some wise fella .

Offline rob1966

  • YORKIE bar-munching, hedgehog-squashing (well-)articulated road-hog-litter-bug. Sleeping With The Enemy. Has felt the wind and shed his anger..... did you know I drive a Jag? Cucking funt!
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 46,263
Re: e-scooters
« Reply #168 on: July 1, 2021, 01:18:06 pm »
What I dont get is..

1. Why are these things even allowed on the pavement? When there is a clear collision between two ingredients, the logical step is to separate them and isolate its usage.

2. Why should limiting its speed be mandatory when studies have shown that a crash that happens at upwards of 7kph could be fatal if the point of contact is one of the critical points on human head?

1. They're not - they are classed as road vehicles and shouldn't be on the pavements. But nowhere has the infrastructure for them to be used safely on roads

2. Gives the rider and pedestrian time to react and avoid each other?
Jurgen, you made us laugh, you made us cry, you made Liverpool a bastion of invincibilty, now leave us on a high - YNWA

Online Red Beret

  • Yellow Beret. Wants to sit in the Lobster Pot. Fat-fingered. Key. Boa. Rd. Kille. R. tonunlick! Soggy Knickers King. Bed-Exiting / Grunting / Bending Down / Cum Face Champion 2023.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 51,330
Re: e-scooters
« Reply #169 on: July 1, 2021, 01:53:21 pm »
I've seen cyclists ignore perfectly good cycle lanes in favour of pavements or even dangerously busy roads. E scooter riders are no different. Theyll also switch between road and pavement for what's convenient for them, usually to get around red lights at junction.

They're usually faster than push bikes and much quieter. I've had the piss scared out of me more than once being overtaken by one. Made me think what might have happened if I'd just casually changed direction.
« Last Edit: July 1, 2021, 02:05:28 pm by Red Berry »
I don't always visit Lobster Pot.  But when I do. I sit.

Popcorn's Art

Offline CraigDS

  • Lite. Smelt it and dealt it. Worrawhopper.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 61,461
  • YNWA
Re: e-scooters
« Reply #170 on: July 1, 2021, 02:00:17 pm »
They're slower than most bikes I see flying around town, esp the ones with elec motors these days. The deliveroo/just eat/etc riders on bikes are a liability with how they fly through traffic and red lights.

Online Red Beret

  • Yellow Beret. Wants to sit in the Lobster Pot. Fat-fingered. Key. Boa. Rd. Kille. R. tonunlick! Soggy Knickers King. Bed-Exiting / Grunting / Bending Down / Cum Face Champion 2023.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 51,330
Re: e-scooters
« Reply #171 on: July 1, 2021, 02:10:11 pm »
They're slower than most bikes I see flying around town, esp the ones with elec motors these days. The deliveroo/just eat/etc riders on bikes are a liability with how they fly through traffic and red lights.

Yeah they're the worst. I get they're on a clock, but the times I've thought someone will be knocked down is mad.

I do feel push bikes are generally slower though, because most people using them are more casual in their use. I think what I'm trying to say about e scooters is the consistency of their speed. Not sure I'm explaining it right though!
I don't always visit Lobster Pot.  But when I do. I sit.

Popcorn's Art

Offline CraigDS

  • Lite. Smelt it and dealt it. Worrawhopper.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 61,461
  • YNWA
Re: e-scooters
« Reply #172 on: July 1, 2021, 02:15:10 pm »
I think ultimately it's going to be an issue until the city sorts it's roads out to be more friendly to bikes / scooters. The Strand is a start (although why the fuck they've not put cycle lanes on both sides rather than just the one is beyond me) but much more could be done like they have in many other cities (often abroad) which have embraced bikes/scooters much better.

Offline rob1966

  • YORKIE bar-munching, hedgehog-squashing (well-)articulated road-hog-litter-bug. Sleeping With The Enemy. Has felt the wind and shed his anger..... did you know I drive a Jag? Cucking funt!
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 46,263
Re: e-scooters
« Reply #173 on: July 1, 2021, 03:27:59 pm »
Yeah they're the worst. I get they're on a clock, but the times I've thought someone will be knocked down is mad.

I do feel push bikes are generally slower though, because most people using them are more casual in their use. I think what I'm trying to say about e scooters is the consistency of their speed. Not sure I'm explaining it right though!

I get what you mean.Cyclists have different fitness levels and different ways of riding, some fly, some cruise. With a scooter or e bike its throttle to the stop regardless of ability.

They're slower than most bikes I see flying around town, esp the ones with elec motors these days. The deliveroo/just eat/etc riders on bikes are a liability with how they fly through traffic and red lights.

We were on a webex yesterday, one of the lads uses his motorhome as an office and he suddenly says "fuck me, I've just seen an electric bike go past doing about 50"
Jurgen, you made us laugh, you made us cry, you made Liverpool a bastion of invincibilty, now leave us on a high - YNWA

Offline Son of Spion

  • "No, I said I was WORKING from home! Me ma's reading this, ya bastids!" Supporter of The Unbrarables. Worratit.
  • RAWK Betazoid
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 24,968
  • BAGs. 28 Years..What Would The Bullens Wall Say?
Re: e-scooters
« Reply #174 on: July 2, 2021, 12:09:02 am »
I was doing 30 in the car the other day and a lad on an e-scooter was almost keeping up with me. God knows what kind of injuries you'd get if you came off one at that speed.
The light that burns twice as bright, burns half as long, and you've burned so very, very brightly, Jürgen.

Offline CraigDS

  • Lite. Smelt it and dealt it. Worrawhopper.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 61,461
  • YNWA
Re: e-scooters
« Reply #175 on: July 2, 2021, 12:14:49 am »
I was doing 30 in the car the other day and a lad on an e-scooter was almost keeping up with me. God knows what kind of injuries you'd get if you came off one at that speed.

I assume a private one? The Voi ones don’t go anywhere near that.

Was speaking to a lad the other day who has one in my apartment block and he was saying police have really started clamping down on people using their own and issuing fines.

Offline Son of Spion

  • "No, I said I was WORKING from home! Me ma's reading this, ya bastids!" Supporter of The Unbrarables. Worratit.
  • RAWK Betazoid
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 24,968
  • BAGs. 28 Years..What Would The Bullens Wall Say?
Re: e-scooters
« Reply #176 on: July 2, 2021, 12:37:54 am »
I assume a private one? The Voi ones don’t go anywhere near that.

Was speaking to a lad the other day who has one in my apartment block and he was saying police have really started clamping down on people using their own and issuing fines.
Yes, it was a black one. Not one of those Voi ones you can hire.

I was just reading this online - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48106617

It states that some privately owned e-scooters can do up to 68mph.  :o

It's amazing just how many private ones there are on the roads around the city given that they can only legally be ridden on private land. What I didn't know was that they are classed as motor vehicles, so are subject to the same legal requirements, such as licensing, MOT and tax.
The light that burns twice as bright, burns half as long, and you've burned so very, very brightly, Jürgen.

Online ChaChaMooMoo

  • From doubters to believers - Klopp 2015
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,870
  • Justice shall prevail.
Re: e-scooters
« Reply #177 on: July 3, 2021, 08:58:44 pm »
1. They're not - they are classed as road vehicles and shouldn't be on the pavements. But nowhere has the infrastructure for them to be used safely on roads

2. Gives the rider and pedestrian time to react and avoid each other?

If its a question of them vs pedestrians and cars vs them, IMO, there is more likelihood of a safer scenario when they are on the road strictly because they know they are the fish feed in that domain. In the pavement, they are the fish and the pedestrians are the fish feed.

Well yes, it does give some more time to react. But my question was, why not make them only slightly faster than walking if being used on the pavement?!? Like we know how fast we would move if we were to use a normal scooter. If intended for the pavement, why not make them limited to that speed?!? Or if 20 mph is possible on these machines, ban them from the pavement and use them on the road. In which case, my previous point applies.

Online Red Beret

  • Yellow Beret. Wants to sit in the Lobster Pot. Fat-fingered. Key. Boa. Rd. Kille. R. tonunlick! Soggy Knickers King. Bed-Exiting / Grunting / Bending Down / Cum Face Champion 2023.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 51,330
Re: e-scooters
« Reply #178 on: July 3, 2021, 09:05:06 pm »
If its a question of them vs pedestrians and cars vs them, IMO, there is more likelihood of a safer scenario when they are on the road strictly because they know they are the fish feed in that domain. In the pavement, they are the fish and the pedestrians are the fish feed.

Well yes, it does give some more time to react. But my question was, why not make them only slightly faster than walking if being used on the pavement?!? Like we know how fast we would move if we were to use a normal scooter. If intended for the pavement, why not make them limited to that speed?!? Or if 20 mph is possible on these machines, ban them from the pavement and use them on the road. In which case, my previous point applies.

I just got back from London, and the number of cyclists whipping by at a fair clip through areas that had huge letters painted "Do Not Cycle" were beyond count.

Unless the police start stopping, fining and putting points on the licence of every e-scooter spotted on a pavement, they're gonna be used on a pavement - regardless of what the law says. And the police don't have the resources to do that.

I find it ironic that we have purpose built cycle lanes to handle single person vehicles that come through every few minutes, but abandoned bus lanes that could carry seventy plus passengers around the same frequency.
I don't always visit Lobster Pot.  But when I do. I sit.

Popcorn's Art

Offline rob1966

  • YORKIE bar-munching, hedgehog-squashing (well-)articulated road-hog-litter-bug. Sleeping With The Enemy. Has felt the wind and shed his anger..... did you know I drive a Jag? Cucking funt!
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 46,263
Re: e-scooters
« Reply #179 on: July 3, 2021, 09:56:36 pm »
I was doing 30 in the car the other day and a lad on an e-scooter was almost keeping up with me. God knows what kind of injuries you'd get if you came off one at that speed.

Same as pro cyclists get, bad abrasions, broken bones. Biggest issue is the lack of a helmet, the head injuries you can get at 30mph can be really bad.
Jurgen, you made us laugh, you made us cry, you made Liverpool a bastion of invincibilty, now leave us on a high - YNWA

Offline Son of Spion

  • "No, I said I was WORKING from home! Me ma's reading this, ya bastids!" Supporter of The Unbrarables. Worratit.
  • RAWK Betazoid
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 24,968
  • BAGs. 28 Years..What Would The Bullens Wall Say?
Re: e-scooters
« Reply #180 on: July 4, 2021, 02:00:06 am »
Same as pro cyclists get, bad abrasions, broken bones. Biggest issue is the lack of a helmet, the head injuries you can get at 30mph can be really bad.
Timely, given this conversation, but yesterday I was talking to a neighbour who has an electric bike. He came off at around 25mph. Took loads of skin off his leg and arm on his left side. Lucky though, as it could have been much worse.
The light that burns twice as bright, burns half as long, and you've burned so very, very brightly, Jürgen.

Offline rob1966

  • YORKIE bar-munching, hedgehog-squashing (well-)articulated road-hog-litter-bug. Sleeping With The Enemy. Has felt the wind and shed his anger..... did you know I drive a Jag? Cucking funt!
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 46,263
Re: e-scooters
« Reply #181 on: July 4, 2021, 07:31:45 am »
Timely, given this conversation, but yesterday I was talking to a neighbour who has an electric bike. He came off at around 25mph. Took loads of skin off his leg and arm on his left side. Lucky though, as it could have been much worse.

People don't seem to understand that the human body is not designed to be dragged along concrete or asphalt at 25-30mph. Those that do 68mph should be ridden wearing full motorbike gear.

Can't be doing with all this environmentally friendly bollocks ether, if you're that arsed, fucking walk you lazy twats or ride a pedal cycle that you already own or buy a second hand one, that has zero impact on the environment. How environmentally friendly is it really to mine for the materials for the hundreds of millions of batteries needed, then to manufacture hundreds of millions of the things in China then transport them by ship and truck from around the globe and then use electricity to charge them? All the bookings are done by an app, so you need to run servers to run the apps and be charging phones to use it.
Jurgen, you made us laugh, you made us cry, you made Liverpool a bastion of invincibilty, now leave us on a high - YNWA

Online ChaChaMooMoo

  • From doubters to believers - Klopp 2015
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,870
  • Justice shall prevail.
Re: e-scooters
« Reply #182 on: July 4, 2021, 07:57:58 am »
I just got back from London, and the number of cyclists whipping by at a fair clip through areas that had huge letters painted "Do Not Cycle" were beyond count.

Unless the police start stopping, fining and putting points on the licence of every e-scooter spotted on a pavement, they're gonna be used on a pavement - regardless of what the law says. And the police don't have the resources to do that.

I find it ironic that we have purpose built cycle lanes to handle single person vehicles that come through every few minutes, but abandoned bus lanes that could carry seventy plus passengers around the same frequency.

A cyclist is difficult to be moderated. I will give you that. To monitor e-scooters movement on pavements, and to ensure that they don't get driven on the pavement, police might not be entirely necessary.



Imagine something like this. Only that there are gaps between the stones and the stones are placed at random heights each varying a couple of centimetres in height. So when you walk, you won't be able to feel the difference between the stone/floor & stone/stone.

Or put in a rubber speed breaker every 50 meters. These things are a bitch to even cars. It's only likely to annoy an average e-scooter rider.



It does require a significant investment in the pavement design though. Plus other infrastructure-based investments like education, speed limitation and geo-fencing.

P.S. I am not an anti-e-scooter in any manner. I just don't like being an asshole in one that has the potential to solve our urban mobility problems. Plus, I am a defensive driver. So I ensure that I treat it with the respect it deserves. Plus other road users as well. Sadly, not everyone share my point of view. So I am willing to inconvenience myself for the greater good. Thats all.
« Last Edit: July 4, 2021, 08:01:46 am by ChaChaMooMoo »

Offline redbyrdz

  • No to sub-optimal passing! Not content with one century, this girl does two together. Oh, and FUCK THE TORIES deh-deh-deh-deh!
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 24,197
Re: e-scooters
« Reply #183 on: July 4, 2021, 08:10:03 am »
The problem with all that is that it makes walking difficult for those that aren't good with it in the first place. And it also causes problems with eg pushing prams or pulling luggage.

Honestly the solution is for people to just have a bit more respect for others. Its perfectly fine to share space between scooters and pedestrians, or bikes and pedestrians, and yes, even with cars - but everybody needs to slow down and be careful about others. That includes pedestrians, the amount of people that step into the road without looking is staggering. And most treat bike lanes as just another bit of pavement.


Has anyone come up with an e-pram yet? ;D
« Last Edit: July 4, 2021, 08:13:04 am by redbyrdz »
"I want to build a team that's invincible, so that they have to send a team from bloody Mars to beat us." - Bill Shankly

Online ChaChaMooMoo

  • From doubters to believers - Klopp 2015
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,870
  • Justice shall prevail.
Re: e-scooters
« Reply #184 on: July 4, 2021, 08:47:10 am »
The problem with all that is that it makes walking difficult for those that aren't good with it in the first place. And it also causes problems with eg pushing prams or pulling luggage.

Honestly the solution is for people to just have a bit more respect for others. Its perfectly fine to share space between scooters and pedestrians, or bikes and pedestrians, and yes, even with cars - but everybody needs to slow down and be careful about others. That includes pedestrians, the amount of people that step into the road without looking is staggering. And most treat bike lanes as just another bit of pavement.


Has anyone come up with an e-pram yet? ;D

https://cybex-online.com/en-en/platinum-strollers/e-priam

Oh yes mate.

Offline butchersdog

  • Scouse Tiger.....grrrr :)
  • Kopite
  • *****
  • Posts: 533
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: e-scooters
« Reply #185 on: July 4, 2021, 09:40:16 am »
Why not just make it mandatory to have a CBT to ride one? Then if people break the law on them, points and fines etc, then if they continue to, banned. If you try and hire one and you don’t have a CBT associated with your licence, or you’ve been banned, you can’t hire one. Seems simple to me, and would no doubt encourage people to use them responsibly. A day or two of CBT can’t hurt to help improve riders road craft and help them keep themselves safe.


Offline rob1966

  • YORKIE bar-munching, hedgehog-squashing (well-)articulated road-hog-litter-bug. Sleeping With The Enemy. Has felt the wind and shed his anger..... did you know I drive a Jag? Cucking funt!
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 46,263
Re: e-scooters
« Reply #186 on: July 4, 2021, 09:46:11 am »
Why not just make it mandatory to have a CBT to ride one? Then if people break the law on them, points and fines etc, then if they continue to, banned. If you try and hire one and you don’t have a CBT associated with your licence, or you’ve been banned, you can’t hire one. Seems simple to me, and would no doubt encourage people to use them responsibly. A day or two of CBT can’t hurt to help improve riders road craft and help them keep themselves safe.



It's all about the money. Bring in CBT and people won't do it.
Jurgen, you made us laugh, you made us cry, you made Liverpool a bastion of invincibilty, now leave us on a high - YNWA

Offline redbyrdz

  • No to sub-optimal passing! Not content with one century, this girl does two together. Oh, and FUCK THE TORIES deh-deh-deh-deh!
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 24,197
Re: e-scooters
« Reply #187 on: July 4, 2021, 02:22:31 pm »
Why not just make it mandatory to have a CBT to ride one? Then if people break the law on them, points and fines etc, then if they continue to, banned. If you try and hire one and you don’t have a CBT associated with your licence, or you’ve been banned, you can’t hire one. Seems simple to me, and would no doubt encourage people to use them responsibly. A day or two of CBT can’t hurt to help improve riders road craft and help them keep themselves safe.



You are supposed to have a driving license with part Q (and insurance) to use a private one. For the hire ones, it also ideally wants your driving license, though I think you can use your passport instead.

I don't agree with it, they should be available to all people  not just those that can affort to drive. It should be easy and convenient to use alternative forms of transport to get around. Putting loads of paperwork in the way is counterproductive.

People just need to learn to be more careful. I do thonk this would happen if there were (many) more users of them. You can't just behave like a twat when there's loads of others around you doing the same thing you're doing.
"I want to build a team that's invincible, so that they have to send a team from bloody Mars to beat us." - Bill Shankly

Offline OOS

  • Jordan Henderson fanclub member #4
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,641
Re: e-scooters
« Reply #188 on: July 4, 2021, 05:19:43 pm »
Rather we have better public transport in the city. Its a pain in the arse getting from the north/ south (example going from Old Hall Street to Baltic Triangle), and east into the city. I live in the east of the city, (L13/L12) and I seriously can't be arsed going up that hill on Islington on a peddler. It's not fun, then you have to battle West Derby Road/ Breck Road. Really wish we got those trams back in the 00s, I've visited Nottingham and Manchester and I'm in envy of them. Easy, stressful travel straight into the city. Us of us in the east who don't live by train stations, either have to get a bus which take the piss or get a taxi/ car. I don't want to get on a e-scooter and battle with cars either, fuck that.  ;D
"I think the most important thing about music is the sense of escape." - Thom Yorke

Offline rob1966

  • YORKIE bar-munching, hedgehog-squashing (well-)articulated road-hog-litter-bug. Sleeping With The Enemy. Has felt the wind and shed his anger..... did you know I drive a Jag? Cucking funt!
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 46,263
Re: e-scooters
« Reply #189 on: July 4, 2021, 05:25:32 pm »
^

I've never used the Trams around here, but they are brilliant for getting about, people at work used them all the time and loved them.
Jurgen, you made us laugh, you made us cry, you made Liverpool a bastion of invincibilty, now leave us on a high - YNWA

Online Red Beret

  • Yellow Beret. Wants to sit in the Lobster Pot. Fat-fingered. Key. Boa. Rd. Kille. R. tonunlick! Soggy Knickers King. Bed-Exiting / Grunting / Bending Down / Cum Face Champion 2023.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 51,330
Re: e-scooters
« Reply #190 on: July 4, 2021, 09:30:53 pm »
It's really annoying how much infrastructure is still kicking around Liverpool that could be brought back into use.

More cars than ever before and fewer and fewer roads in the city to manage the traffic.  Between Hanover/Elliot Street and Queen's Square, the city is clogged up like a bad heart.
I don't always visit Lobster Pot.  But when I do. I sit.

Popcorn's Art

Offline butchersdog

  • Scouse Tiger.....grrrr :)
  • Kopite
  • *****
  • Posts: 533
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: e-scooters
« Reply #191 on: July 5, 2021, 08:50:01 am »
You are supposed to have a driving license with part Q (and insurance) to use a private one. For the hire ones, it also ideally wants your driving license, though I think you can use your passport instead.

I don't agree with it, they should be available to all people  not just those that can affort to drive. It should be easy and convenient to use alternative forms of transport to get around. Putting loads of paperwork in the way is counterproductive.

People just need to learn to be more careful. I do thonk this would happen if there were (many) more users of them. You can't just behave like a twat when there's loads of others around you doing the same thing you're doing.

I’m not sure I agree really, it’s disingenuous to suggest that the cost of applying for a provisional driving licence and a CBT is the same as learning to drive, it’s probably less than the cost of a couple of weeks commute into a city on a train. I don’t see how a 30mph E Scooter is legislatively any different than a 30mph electric moped.

As an aside, I don’t personally buy into the eco friendly narrative either, are e-scooters really replacing none essential journeys in cars, or are they none essential journeys themselves that could be completed on foot or on a bike, i.e not using a device that has a carbon footprint to manufacture and charge it? They don’t even have a basket to store anything people might buy, they don’t seem much more than a bit of a gimmick to me.

Offline rob1966

  • YORKIE bar-munching, hedgehog-squashing (well-)articulated road-hog-litter-bug. Sleeping With The Enemy. Has felt the wind and shed his anger..... did you know I drive a Jag? Cucking funt!
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 46,263
Re: e-scooters
« Reply #192 on: July 5, 2021, 10:17:14 am »
I’m not sure I agree really, it’s disingenuous to suggest that the cost of applying for a provisional driving licence and a CBT is the same as learning to drive, it’s probably less than the cost of a couple of weeks commute into a city on a train. I don’t see how a 30mph E Scooter is legislatively any different than a 30mph electric moped.

As an aside, I don’t personally buy into the eco friendly narrative either, are e-scooters really replacing none essential journeys in cars, or are they none essential journeys themselves that could be completed on foot or on a bike, i.e not using a device that has a carbon footprint to manufacture and charge it? They don’t even have a basket to store anything people might buy, they don’t seem much more than a bit of a gimmick to me.

This is my stance on this too - people are getting lazier and lazier and rather than walk, they are using these to get about. If you hang a shopping bag off the bars you are asking for an accident. You can of course wear a backpack, but unless you take a 70L one, you aren't getting much in it. Seeing more and more kids on privately owned ones and they are just being used as toys.

My generation get shit off the younger ones about being environmentally friendly, yet those generations changes phones annually, constantly have fuck loads of things on charge and are getting lazier and lazier and fatter and fatter.
Jurgen, you made us laugh, you made us cry, you made Liverpool a bastion of invincibilty, now leave us on a high - YNWA

Offline redbyrdz

  • No to sub-optimal passing! Not content with one century, this girl does two together. Oh, and FUCK THE TORIES deh-deh-deh-deh!
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 24,197
Re: e-scooters
« Reply #193 on: July 5, 2021, 11:07:53 am »
I’m not sure I agree really, it’s disingenuous to suggest that the cost of applying for a provisional driving licence and a CBT is the same as learning to drive, it’s probably less than the cost of a couple of weeks commute into a city on a train. I don’t see how a 30mph E Scooter is legislatively any different than a 30mph electric moped.

As an aside, I don’t personally buy into the eco friendly narrative either, are e-scooters really replacing none essential journeys in cars, or are they none essential journeys themselves that could be completed on foot or on a bike, i.e not using a device that has a carbon footprint to manufacture and charge it? They don’t even have a basket to store anything people might buy, they don’t seem much more than a bit of a gimmick to me.

They are not 30 mph though, they are limited to 12 mph. That some people have illegally fast ones doesn't change that.

I'm not sure how the escooter users got about before escooters were available. I really doubt they cycled though, and I'm not totally conviced they walked. It would be interesting to see statistics.

Oh, and I agree in general that it would be better if people used normal push bikes or scooters or just plain their feet instead, but it's not going to happen. At least the escooters get them into the fresh air for a bit, and riding a scooter is still more exercise than sitting in a car.

"I want to build a team that's invincible, so that they have to send a team from bloody Mars to beat us." - Bill Shankly

Online ChaChaMooMoo

  • From doubters to believers - Klopp 2015
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 6,870
  • Justice shall prevail.
Re: e-scooters
« Reply #194 on: July 5, 2021, 12:00:20 pm »
As an aside, I don’t personally buy into the eco friendly narrative either, are e-scooters really replacing none essential journeys in cars, or are they none essential journeys themselves that could be completed on foot or on a bike, i.e not using a device that has a carbon footprint to manufacture and charge it? They don’t even have a basket to store anything people might buy, they don’t seem much more than a bit of a gimmick to me.

The point of an e-scooter is to replace the long walks that you would otherwise have taken in your car or bus or bike. Like, visiting the a home game if your residence is 10kms away.

But then, walking - distance too far / car - distance too close / bus - connection issues / bike - theft risk.

For me, its about finding one thats nearly outside my door, at a time thats convenient to me and leaving them at a place where I dont care about what happens to them afterwards.

With a basket, as you suggested, there are other issues regarding them. Like additional weight reduces the range of these machines. They also cannot climb aggresive slopes. They are not intended to replace your moped or car or bus or bike. They are simply offered to simplify your mobility requirements to get from point A to point B as quickly and as easily as possible without having the need to worry about what happens after.

As for the carbon footprint to manufacture it, it does add a significant portion of carbon to the environment in getting them manufactured and assembled. But you need to remember that this is just the step 0 toward becoming sustainable. As technologies advance and researchers find alternative methods to meet the different goals, they will become a carbon neutral mobility solution in the future.

The issue for us in the meantime is how people dont understand basic physics and instead try on inventing their own alt-physics to get and ride them thus rendering the other road users lives in danger.

Online Red Beret

  • Yellow Beret. Wants to sit in the Lobster Pot. Fat-fingered. Key. Boa. Rd. Kille. R. tonunlick! Soggy Knickers King. Bed-Exiting / Grunting / Bending Down / Cum Face Champion 2023.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 51,330
Re: e-scooters
« Reply #195 on: July 5, 2021, 12:33:22 pm »
They should bring back milk floats. They were awesome.
I don't always visit Lobster Pot.  But when I do. I sit.

Popcorn's Art

Offline CraigDS

  • Lite. Smelt it and dealt it. Worrawhopper.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 61,461
  • YNWA
Re: e-scooters
« Reply #196 on: July 5, 2021, 12:35:55 pm »
As someone who lives in the city they 100% replace car journeys.

Ive used them for getting to the pub which I’d normally get a taxi for, or nipping the shop which I’d normally jump in the car for, or heading the other side of the city which I’d prob jump in a cab for.

I see loads of others from my building going to work on them when they’d normally drive.

Sure I could walk a couple of those, but when I’m busy or in a rush I’m not spending 15 mins walking somewhere, and 15 mins walking back when I could drive (I do plenty of other walking during the day with the dog). However I will jump on a scooter and spend 5 mins going there and coming back.

Offline butchersdog

  • Scouse Tiger.....grrrr :)
  • Kopite
  • *****
  • Posts: 533
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: e-scooters
« Reply #197 on: July 5, 2021, 01:47:42 pm »
As someone who lives in the city they 100% replace car journeys.

Ive used them for getting to the pub which I’d normally get a taxi for, or nipping the shop which I’d normally jump in the car for, or heading the other side of the city which I’d prob jump in a cab for.

I see loads of others from my building going to work on them when they’d normally drive.

Sure I could walk a couple of those, but when I’m busy or in a rush I’m not spending 15 mins walking somewhere, and 15 mins walking back when I could drive (I do plenty of other walking during the day with the dog). However I will jump on a scooter and spend 5 mins going there and coming back.

Yeah, I can imagine situations in a CBD where you could use one, versus getting hot and sweaty on a bike, but outside of a regular commute (which I still hope as a society we’re going to move away from emissions wise post Covid) the uses seem quite irregular and restricted. As you said yourself Craig, you’ve had journeys on them that could be walked because the e scooter is convenient and saves time. Remind you of any other modes of transport that increase our carbon footprint? As a society, sometimes folks forget that the energy used to power things has to come from somewhere, even without an exhaust.

I’d be interested to see any studies re: the proportion of people that are actually getting out of cars to use one, versus stopping walking/cycling. Rob pointed out that if the government made CBT’s a requirement, the use of the scooters would drop as they wouldn’t be as accessible to the user base, so I find it hard to square that with drivers jumping out of cars to use them or it wouldn’t really be an issue.

We keep getting told there’s an obesity crisis, not sure whether these are the answer in that respect either. There’s pros and cons I guess. My personal view is I’d sooner there was investment in sustainable public transport that went where you need it to, was safe, reasonably priced, and reliable. If E Scooters were part of a broader public transport vision, with the revenue raised from hiring e scooters, fines, CBT’s etc (if the latter things came in) ring fenced and put back into improving the transport system and offerings, making them more sustainable etc, I’d be more on board too, but this clearly isn’t part of one (ideally publicly run) entity. I don’t think it’s a huge leap to envisage that if they take off, public transport services might get cut. Even with the privatisation in the railway now, at least it’s an industry with good pay and union protection, rather than the gig economy model of Uber.

Am I being overly cynical here? I read Steve Rotheram’s statement on them and that sounds good in terms of the integrated London style transport network. Someone on here will no doubt have proper info on what the model is..
« Last Edit: July 5, 2021, 01:51:38 pm by butchersdog »

Offline CraigDS

  • Lite. Smelt it and dealt it. Worrawhopper.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 61,461
  • YNWA
Re: e-scooters
« Reply #198 on: July 5, 2021, 01:55:03 pm »
Yeah, I can imagine situations in a CBD where you could use one, versus getting hot and sweaty on a bike, but outside of a regular commute (which I still hope as a society we’re going to move away from emissions wise post Covid) the uses seem quite irregular and restricted. As you said yourself Craig, you’ve had journeys on them that could be walked because the e scooter is convenient and saves time. Remind you of any other modes of transport that increase our carbon footprint? As a society, sometimes folks forget that the energy used to power things has to come from somewhere, even without an exhaust.

The argument is a strange one though - they're no good because they're worse than walking. However walking ISN'T an option in some of those situations because I simply don't have the time to waste 45 mins to walk the shop. So the options are I drive, or I use a much MUCH less polluting option such as a bike or a scooter.

Now sure, there are times when people could walk but use scooters, however the carbon footprint of these journeys really won't be high (plus the more use the scooters get the less "footprint" per journey they have as the manufacturing footprint is split over more use).

I also think a lot of them charge themselves as they are used (may be wrong, but that was my understanding) so not like they are being plugged in and charged.

Offline rob1966

  • YORKIE bar-munching, hedgehog-squashing (well-)articulated road-hog-litter-bug. Sleeping With The Enemy. Has felt the wind and shed his anger..... did you know I drive a Jag? Cucking funt!
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 46,263
Re: e-scooters
« Reply #199 on: July 5, 2021, 07:31:33 pm »
Yeah, I can imagine situations in a CBD where you could use one, versus getting hot and sweaty on a bike, but outside of a regular commute (which I still hope as a society we’re going to move away from emissions wise post Covid) the uses seem quite irregular and restricted. As you said yourself Craig, you’ve had journeys on them that could be walked because the e scooter is convenient and saves time. Remind you of any other modes of transport that increase our carbon footprint? As a society, sometimes folks forget that the energy used to power things has to come from somewhere, even without an exhaust.

I’d be interested to see any studies re: the proportion of people that are actually getting out of cars to use one, versus stopping walking/cycling. Rob pointed out that if the government made CBT’s a requirement, the use of the scooters would drop as they wouldn’t be as accessible to the user base, so I find it hard to square that with drivers jumping out of cars to use them or it wouldn’t really be an issue.

We keep getting told there’s an obesity crisis, not sure whether these are the answer in that respect either. There’s pros and cons I guess. My personal view is I’d sooner there was investment in sustainable public transport that went where you need it to, was safe, reasonably priced, and reliable. If E Scooters were part of a broader public transport vision, with the revenue raised from hiring e scooters, fines, CBT’s etc (if the latter things came in) ring fenced and put back into improving the transport system and offerings, making them more sustainable etc, I’d be more on board too, but this clearly isn’t part of one (ideally publicly run) entity. I don’t think it’s a huge leap to envisage that if they take off, public transport services might get cut. Even with the privatisation in the railway now, at least it’s an industry with good pay and union protection, rather than the gig economy model of Uber.

Am I being overly cynical here? I read Steve Rotheram’s statement on them and that sounds good in terms of the integrated London style transport network. Someone on here will no doubt have proper info on what the model is..

You should find this study from the University of Carolina interesting.

https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1748-9326/ab2da8

To better understand the net impacts of shared e-scooter use, we consider the modes of transportation that are being displaced. In our survey of e-scooter riders, 7% of users reported that they would not have taken the trip otherwise, 49% would have biked or walked, 34% would have used a personal automobile or ride-share service, and 11% would have taken a public bus (table S7). These results are consistent with a survey conducted in Portland, Oregon, which shows 8% would not have taken the trip, 45% would have biked or walked, 36% would have used an automobile, and 10% would have used a bus or streetcar

They come up with figures that an escooter contributes 202g Co2 per passenger mile, based on it lasting 18-24 months, compared to a car that produces 414g Co2, but that is basing it on an average American 2012 car doing 26mpg. My missus 1.6 2006 Astra is 158g/km, does about 40mog around town, so that's about 212g per mile, whereas modern cars, especially the hybrids are a lot less than the Astra.
Jurgen, you made us laugh, you made us cry, you made Liverpool a bastion of invincibilty, now leave us on a high - YNWA