Author Topic: Elections in Europe  (Read 167079 times)

Offline Libertine

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Elections in Europe
« on: January 16, 2017, 12:29:09 pm »
It's going to be a big year for national (parliamentary and presedential) elections in several, key European countries this year - in particular France, Germany and the Netherlands. The twin disasters of Brexit and Trump in 2016, hghlighting the rise of right-wing populism, has made everyone nervous of the outcome of the big two elections in particular.

So, can Angela Merkel return to power and carry on her role as the only credible western leader around?

Can the nightmare of a Le Pen victory in France be avoided and would Fillon be much of a better option?


For now, some good news from France as Macron is apprently performing very impressively in the polls. Could France be the stage for a dramatic liberal fightback?


French progressives dare to hope as maverick Macron surges in polls

Pro-EU, socially liberal and a political outsider, the former economy minister is drawing crowds who fear rise of Marine Le Pen

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jan/15/french-progressives-dare-to-hope-as-maverick-macron-surges-in-polls

Quote
From the stage in a packed concert hall, France’s youngest presidential candidate looked up at the thousands of people who had come to witness his trademark thunderous speaking style.

“Never accept those who promote exclusion, hatred or closing in on ourselves!” Emmanuel Macron urged the audience in Lille, a city surrounded by France’s leftwing northern heartlands that are increasingly turning to Marine Le Pen’s far-right Front National. “When the Front National promises to restore security points at the border, they are lying,” he said.

Then the maverick centrist, who is running an independent, outsider campaign, did something no others are doing. He hailed the European Union to a standing ovation. “Europe is us! Brussels is us! We need Europe!” he shouted. Cheering supporters, many in their 20s, stood up waving EU flags.

Macron is becoming a growing phenomenon in the highly unpredictable French presidential election campaign. In recent weeks, the maverick former economy minister has begun to rise so steadily in polls that he is now seen as capable of causing a major surprise in the spring vote – perhaps able to reach the final round by knocking out one of the current top contenders: the rightwing, social conservative, free-market reformist François Fillon and the far-right, anti-immigration, anti-EU Marine Le Pen.

When Macron launched his outsider bid to blow apart the inadequacies of the “vacuous” political class two months ago, he was bucking every trend in French politics. The 39-year-old former investment banker, who had been a chief adviser and then economy minister to François Hollande, was not a member of any political party. He had never run for any kind of election. He defined himself as “neither left nor right”, and only two years before, the public had never even heard of him. He was more than a decade younger than any serious presidential contender, and his disgruntled opponents inside French traditional parties said he was a “champagne bubble” waiting to burst.

But now, with huge numbers turning up to his rallies, rising ratings and one poll this week showing he was France’s most popular politician, the political novice who has promised to revolutionise the way France is governed is being eyed nervously by the other main candidates.

There are no foregone conclusions in the French presidential race, and the final line up of candidates for the two rounds in April and May is not yet known. But Macron wants to show he can buck a recent trend in western politics – he styles himself as a liberal “progressive” who believes he can triumph against the odds in a political landscape where support for the extremes is growing.

More than 4,500 people in Lille turned out to see Macron, a very high number in the historically Socialist city. Far from the well-heeled dotcom entrepreneurs who attended Macron’s first rally in Paris last summer, they were of all ages, from students and sixth-formers, to doctors, hauliers, teachers, pensioners and local business people. Macron is economically liberal and a pro-business reformist, but he is firmly on the left on social issues, including on the freedom to practise religion in a neutral state, on equality and immigration.

“I’m afraid of the rise of Marine Le Pen and if Macron proves a possible rampart against her then I’m interested,” said Franck Tronet, a former wedding photographer on disability benefit who lives near Calais and considered himself centre-left. “Macron represents something new in French politics. He’s young, he’s not aggressive, he’s always smiling and that’s a good thing.”

The growing curiosity about Macron and his fledgling movement, En Marche (Forward), is also linked to disappointment in other parties. The Socialists are in disarray and expected to fare badly no matter who they choose as their candidate in an open primary race this month. Fillon’s rightwing campaign is struggling to take off.

Fanny Brunet, 24, an engineering student from Aix-en-Provence, once voted Socialist. “Emmanuel Macron is young; he sees the world the way we see it,” she said. “I want realism; I’m fed up with politicians making promises that can’t be kept.”

Ghislaine Desbordes, 50, a trainer in office management and an independent local councillor from Wambrechies, near Lille, approved of Macron’s regular appearances on the front cover of celebrity magazines with his wife, who is 24 years older and was once his drama teacher. “Having an older wife means he’s tolerant in life. He’s not closed-minded,” she said.

Macron’s critics say France has a long tradition of an outsider “third man” peaking before a presidential election but then fading away. There are many variables – such as whether or not the veteran centrist François Bayrou decides to run, and whether disgruntled Socialists defect to Macron, seeing him as the only way to stop the far right.

Macron’s trip to the north did not all go according to plan. His comments in the former mining heartlands that the difficulties, social and health problems in the area included high rates of “smoking and alcoholism” were attacked by one local Front National mayor as the Parisian elite stereotyping the northern working classes.

Yves-Marie Cann, political director at the Elabe polling group in Paris, said: “Some saw Macron as a bubble that would burst, so far that isn’t the case. The indicators show that he is now a weighty candidate.

“If the momentum around him continues, he could reshuffle the cards and disprove predictions that the final run-off will be between Fillon and Le Pen. He could re-orientate the second round into a battle that is Fillon versus Macron or Le Pen versus Macron. This is not yet the case – Fillon and Le Pen remain the frontrunners – but the campaign is about to begin in earnest and things could change.”

Pierre Mathiot, a politics professor at Lille’s Sciences Po university, said: “There are two questions. First: will French voters accept a candidate who says he is above the left-right divide? Second: is he credible when he says he embodies change, a break with the past and a new way of politically doing things?

“Those factors, added to the poor health of the Socialist party and the poor start for Fillon, could carry him far in terms of results,” said Mathiot.

One 28-year-old IT technician from Lille had come to the rally out of curiosity. He has always voted right but thought Fillon was “too socially conservative and wants too much austerity”. Afterwards he said: “Macron has really given me a boost. If enough people come to see him live, he’ll rise higher and higher. I found him quite exhilarating.”
« Last Edit: November 16, 2020, 12:19:40 pm by John C »

Offline killer-heels

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Re: Elections in Europe - 2017
« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2017, 12:42:22 pm »
I worry for France. Germany should get Merkel back in.

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Re: Elections in Europe - 2017
« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2017, 01:42:47 pm »
Just reading about Northern Ireland. Sounds like there could be an election in the making there too.
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Re: Elections in Europe - 2017
« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2017, 01:49:01 pm »
Just reading about Northern Ireland. Sounds like there could be an election in the making there too.

I'd say it's 99% certain there will be.

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Re: Elections in Europe - 2017
« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2017, 08:25:35 pm »
Even if Wilders gets the most votes he won't be forming a government as none of the other parties are willing to work with him.

http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2017/01/vvd-leader-mark-rutte-says-zero-chance-of-coalition-with-geert-wilders/

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Re: Elections in Europe - 2017
« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2017, 08:28:50 pm »
Even if Wilders gets the most votes he won't be forming a government as none of the other parties are willing to work with him.

http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2017/01/vvd-leader-mark-rutte-says-zero-chance-of-coalition-with-geert-wilders/

Says a lot for the Dutch if they get the popular vote.

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Re: Elections in Europe - 2017
« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2017, 08:33:21 pm »
Says a lot for the Dutch if they get the popular vote.
It will be around 20% max. There's loads of parties over here.

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Re: Elections in Europe - 2017
« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2017, 08:42:15 pm »
It will be around 20% max. There's loads of parties over here.


Thats reassuring.

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Re: Elections in Europe - 2017
« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2017, 09:03:46 pm »
It will be around 20% max. There's loads of parties over here.


Good thing you don't have FPTP. ;)

Offline Libertine

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Re: Elections in Europe - 2017
« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2017, 10:27:41 am »
So it appears France now has its own Jeremy Corbyn  :o

Benoit Hamon - victorious in the first round of voting to be Socialist candidate, now faces a run-off against the more establishment Manuel Valls.

http://www.politics.co.uk/comment-analysis/2017/01/25/benoit-hamon-meet-the-french-jeremy-corbyn

Can't help but thinking all either will do is split the progressive vote and reduce support for Macron, leaving a hard-right vs far-right runoff.

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Re: Elections in Europe - 2017
« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2017, 10:37:19 am »
Can't help but thinking all either will do is split the progressive vote and reduce support for Macron, leaving a hard-right vs far-right runoff.

Are you suggesting that the Socialist Party, which is currently in power, shouldn't field a candidate at all?

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Re: Elections in Europe - 2017
« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2017, 10:39:13 am »
So it appears France now has its own Jeremy Corbyn  :o

Benoit Hamon - victorious in the first round of voting to be Socialist candidate, now faces a run-off against the more establishment Manuel Valls.

http://www.politics.co.uk/comment-analysis/2017/01/25/benoit-hamon-meet-the-french-jeremy-corbyn

Can't help but thinking all either will do is split the progressive vote and reduce support for Macron, leaving a hard-right vs far-right runoff.

The left has no chance in the elections in France. If you want left wing economic policies, then you might as well vote for Le Pen, as she offers that.

Offline Libertine

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Re: Elections in Europe - 2017
« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2017, 10:40:04 am »
Are you suggesting that the Socialist Party, which is currently in power, shouldn't field a candidate at all?

No of course they have to field a candidate. Just the unfortunate effect may be a grim final choice for voters.

They're currently lying 5th in opinion polls though. And saw recently that the Social Democrats are 8th in polls in the Netherlands. It truly is a crisis in identity for socialist and social democratic parties in many countries at the moment.

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Re: Elections in Europe - 2017
« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2017, 10:46:55 am »
No of course they have to field a candidate. Just the unfortunate effect may be a grim final choice for voters.

They're currently lying 5th in opinion polls though. And saw recently that the Social Democrats are 8th in polls in the Netherlands. It truly is a crisis in identity for socialist and social democratic parties in many countries at the moment.

Unfortunately terror attacks and immigration has meant that people have veered into becoming social conservatives. Throw in an economic crisis and stagnation in much of Europe and you have a recipe for people wanting radical change and France has had it the most.

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Re: Elections in Europe - 2017
« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2017, 10:58:31 am »


No of course they have to field a candidate. Just the unfortunate effect may be a grim final choice for voters.

They're currently lying 5th in opinion polls though. And saw recently that the Social Democrats are 8th in polls in the Netherlands. It truly is a crisis in identity for socialist and social democratic parties in many countries at the moment.

I assume you mean the PvdA in the Netherlands which is the Labour Party. D66 are a social democratic party and are polling higher. Groenlinks are also polling higher who are a left wing green party. Wilders support is falling again now his trial is over and after the traditional Zwarte Piet chrimbo boost. None of the other parties want to work with him in a coalition.

http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2017/01/general-election-latest-poll-of-polls-shows-slight-drop-in-pvv-support/

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Re: Elections in Europe - 2017
« Reply #15 on: January 25, 2017, 10:59:07 am »
No of course they have to field a candidate. Just the unfortunate effect may be a grim final choice for voters.

It's an unfair election system, where only the top two go to the next round. It's perfectly possible that whoever comes third in the first round would win given a chance against either of the top two, but we'll never find out.

And saw recently that the Social Democrats are 8th in polls in the Netherlands. It truly is a crisis in identity for socialist and social democratic parties in many countries at the moment.

The Dutch polls are utterly depressing, but at least there are three other left(ish) parties polling ahead of the Social Democrats you refer to. We can only hope that the mainstream right-wing parties will form a coalition with some of them in order to keep Wilders out.

Offline Libertine

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Re: Elections in Europe - 2017
« Reply #16 on: January 25, 2017, 11:35:09 am »

I assume you mean the PvdA in the Netherlands which is the Labour Party. D66 are a social democratic party and are polling higher. Groenlinks are also polling higher who are a left wing green party. Wilders support is falling again now his trial is over and after the traditional Zwarte Piet chrimbo boost. None of the other parties want to work with him in a coalition.

http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2017/01/general-election-latest-poll-of-polls-shows-slight-drop-in-pvv-support/

Interesting. Points to another problem prevalent in many countries with more proportional voting systems - the fragmentation of left-wing/progressive parties into many different groupings. Also see that in Ireland - Greens, Labour, Social Democrats and a whole range of hard left parties.

Good to see Wilders support falling again. Hopefully will become a trend and the likes of him get tarnished by association with Trump.

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Re: Elections in Europe - 2017
« Reply #17 on: January 25, 2017, 11:37:45 am »
Interesting. Points to another problem prevalent in many countries with more proportional voting systems - the fragmentation of left-wing/progressive parties into many different groupings. Also see that in Ireland - Greens, Labour, Social Democrats and a whole range of hard left parties.

Good to see Wilders support falling again. Hopefully will become a trend and the likes of him get tarnished by association with Trump.
This shows the complexity of the Dutch vote pretty well

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2017/01/24/2017-netherlands-election-mid-sized-parties-the-new-norm/

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Re: Elections in Europe - 2017
« Reply #18 on: January 29, 2017, 05:40:07 pm »
Fillon's popularity is falling thanks to a few scandals recently around the misuse of public funds. Polling shows him slightly behind Le Pen.

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Re: Elections in Europe - 2017
« Reply #19 on: January 29, 2017, 05:49:37 pm »
Fillon's popularity is falling thanks to a few scandals recently around the misuse of public funds. Polling shows him slightly behind Le Pen.

Wouldn't worry about it, if it's Fillon v Le Pen in the second round, Fillon will get pretty much all the socialist and Macron votes.

Offline killer-heels

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Re: Elections in Europe - 2017
« Reply #20 on: January 29, 2017, 05:51:53 pm »
Wouldn't worry about it, if it's Fillon v Le Pen in the second round, Fillon will get pretty much all the socialist and Macron votes.

Hopefully the winner from the scandals is Macron. Must be shit situation voting for a racist or a Thatcher lover who wants to kill all your public services.

Stil think Le Pen could do this.

Offline Libertine

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Re: Elections in Europe - 2017
« Reply #21 on: January 29, 2017, 05:57:09 pm »
Hopefully the winner from the scandals is Macron. Must be shit situation voting for a racist or a Thatcher lover who wants to kill all your public services.

Stil think Le Pen could do this.

More troubles for Fillon and the Socialists going for their Corbyn could be very good news for Macron. If he makes it to the second round, he should have enough broad appeal to see off Le Pen. Well, in any normal political times.....

Offline Libertine

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Re: Elections in Europe - 2017
« Reply #22 on: January 29, 2017, 07:52:41 pm »
Benoit Hamon wins the Socialist primary.

Well, at least the French can't say they don't have a wide range of options to choose from....

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Re: Elections in Europe - 2017
« Reply #23 on: February 1, 2017, 10:48:26 am »
Wouldn't worry about it, if it's Fillon v Le Pen in the second round, Fillon will get pretty much all the socialist and Macron votes.

Fillon is really tanking though and I think it is time to worry about why Le Pen was in Trump Tower

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Re: Elections in Europe - 2017
« Reply #24 on: February 1, 2017, 10:58:45 am »
Fillon is really tanking though and I think it is time to worry about why Le Pen was in Trump Tower

If Fillon drops to third, even better, we'll get an even more acceptable alternative to Le Pen in the final round. And his voters are not switching to Le Pen anyway, the drop is probably down to the Socialists finally having a candidate. Hamon's percentage almost doubled in a week, though wiki's latest data is only based on one source:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_French_presidential_election,_2017

Offline Libertine

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Re: Elections in Europe - 2017
« Reply #25 on: February 1, 2017, 11:26:25 am »
The worry is that Fillon scapes through to the second round but is so tainted at that stage, that many simply won't vote for him.

If Macron beats him in the first round, he should see off Le Pen easily. Currently 2:1 ahead in the polls in such a match-up.


Confirmed in new poll:

@georgeeaton
Macron ahead of Fillon for the first time (22-19) and 30 points ahead of Le Pen in second round.

https://twitter.com/georgeeaton/status/826756542997417984
« Last Edit: February 1, 2017, 11:42:02 am by Libertine »

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Re: Elections in Europe - 2017
« Reply #26 on: February 1, 2017, 11:57:59 am »
Absolute dream scenario if Macron wins.

Offline richiedouglas

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Re: Elections in Europe - 2017
« Reply #27 on: February 1, 2017, 12:50:21 pm »
Absolute dream scenario if Macron wins.

Agreed. Can we trust polling though?

There'll undoubtedly be some Russian / Trump / Wikileaks (maybe not) interfering to get LePen further up the pecking order. She's been meeting with Trump already.

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Re: Elections in Europe - 2017
« Reply #28 on: February 1, 2017, 12:55:19 pm »
Agreed. Can we trust polling though?

There'll undoubtedly be some Russian / Trump / Wikileaks (maybe not) interfering to get LePen further up the pecking order. She's been meeting with Trump already.

No doubt there will be more dirt on Fillon and hopefully there isn't that much on Macron. Their system means only complete apathy towards them two will see Le Pen win. I guess if there is dirt on them then they only have themselves to blame.

Offline Libertine

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Re: Elections in Europe - 2017
« Reply #29 on: February 1, 2017, 01:00:02 pm »
No doubt there will be more dirt on Fillon and hopefully there isn't that much on Macron. Their system means only complete apathy towards them two will see Le Pen win. I guess if there is dirt on them then they only have themselves to blame.

Plenty of dirt on Le Pen too - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-38821074 - but of course that's never an issue with the far right.....

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Re: Elections in Europe - 2017
« Reply #30 on: February 1, 2017, 01:06:51 pm »
Agreed. Can we trust polling though?

There'll undoubtedly be some Russian / Trump / Wikileaks (maybe not) interfering to get LePen further up the pecking order. She's been meeting with Trump already.
@wikileaks: 3,630 documents from our archives on French presidential candidate François Fillon https://search.wikileaks.org/?q=%22Fran%C3%A7ois+Fillon%22 https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/826611084631040000/photo/1



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Re: Elections in Europe - 2017
« Reply #31 on: February 1, 2017, 02:19:28 pm »
Agreed. Can we trust polling though?

There'll undoubtedly be some Russian / Trump / Wikileaks (maybe not) interfering to get LePen further up the pecking order. She's been meeting with Trump already.

Quite apart from her refusal to pay back the funds, the FN leader might struggle to find the money. Her party has been unable to raise funds from French banks and has had to seek financing abroad.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-38821074
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Re: Elections in Europe - 2017
« Reply #32 on: February 1, 2017, 05:12:17 pm »
@wikileaks: 3,630 documents from our archives on French presidential candidate François Fillon https://search.wikileaks.org/?q=%22Fran%C3%A7ois+Fillon%22 https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/826611084631040000/photo/1

Were Wikileaks always pro-fascist/far-right or is that a more recent development? Maybe cabin fever induces political hysteria.....





This looks promising (Betfair chances) though as Ian Dunt said on Twitter, it brings back horrendous memories of US election night.

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Re: Elections in Europe - 2017
« Reply #33 on: February 1, 2017, 06:49:26 pm »
This looks promising (Betfair chances) though as Ian Dunt said on Twitter, it brings back horrendous memories of US election night.

Looks promising but as you say, absolutely no chance I'm trusting any polls. Hope the French are more sensible than us or America but not holding my breath.
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Re: Elections in Europe - 2017
« Reply #34 on: February 1, 2017, 06:56:12 pm »
Looks promising but as you say, absolutely no chance I'm trusting any polls. Hope the French are more sensible than us or America but not holding my breath.

Was looking at some polls and the young are massively in favour of Le Pen. Interesting that. Probably to do with the high levels of youth unemployment. Its something we have to be worried about here with the young prices out of buying homes.

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Re: Elections in Europe - 2017
« Reply #35 on: February 1, 2017, 07:56:25 pm »
@wikileaks: 3,630 documents from our archives on French presidential candidate François Fillon https://search.wikileaks.org/?q=%22Fran%C3%A7ois+Fillon%22 https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/826611084631040000/photo/1
in fairness there is around 1,500 on le pen

Quite apart from her refusal to pay back the funds, the FN leader might struggle to find the money. Her party has been unable to raise funds from French banks and has had to seek financing abroad.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-38821074
shes borrowed a fair bit off putin, wonder if that trip to trump tower was her begging for money

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Re: Elections in Europe - 2017
« Reply #36 on: February 2, 2017, 10:15:31 am »
No doubt there will be more dirt on Fillon and hopefully there isn't that much on Macron.

For Macron, wait until how his relation with his french teacher was until he married her :D
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Offline Libertine

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Re: Elections in Europe - 2017
« Reply #37 on: February 2, 2017, 10:18:38 am »
For Macron, wait until how his relation with his french teacher was until he married her :D

It's France - that's good for a 2-3 point bump surely?

Offline fenre

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Re: Elections in Europe - 2017
« Reply #38 on: February 2, 2017, 11:59:02 am »
What we can expect in these elections, is organized terrorist attacks to try to get the right-wings in powerful positions in Europe. Nationalistic and protectionist reactions from states in Europe that can breed xenophobia and racism in Europe, will give them a massive potential for recruiting to the terrorist cells.

Sadly, 2017 will probably be a terrible year.


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Re: Elections in Europe - 2017
« Reply #39 on: February 2, 2017, 12:49:01 pm »
Am I too optimistic in thinking Trump will actually have a positive impact on these elections?

I mean of course a large amount of their support is people who support Trump and his mess, but in terms of the wider electorate, I think Trump could damage the 'kick up the arse to the status quo' vote, and motivate others to get out and vote.

Of course that would be balanced against how much Trump winning motivates the anti-Islam and anti-immigrant crowd.