Topic: CL: Red Star 2 vs Liverpool 0 ‘22 ‘ 28 Pavkov

[OOS]

We're brain dead in midfield.. There's no creativity. We just hoof it long these days expecting the front 3 to do something magical. Teams push Mane and Salah as wide as possible knowing full well we have no one to get goals from deeper.

We bought Keita and Fabinho and solve this issue. Harsh as they have only been through the door five minutes, but for a club that wins stuff, they need to get their arse in gear and show us why we bought them.

We missed a player like Phil or Ox in the way he could twat one from nowhere and give us that extra dimension from deep. We have no one at the moment who can do that.

[thekitkatshuffler]

Klopp got it all wrong to be honest.

Why change the structure which worked so well in the home game?

It's been a really weird season from him really.  How has a Jϊrgen Klopp midfield been allowed to end up with so many workmanlike players in it?

And talking in press conferences like we've got some mystical new plan for this season that we're sticking with and is serving us well.  We've looked an utter shadow of ourselves.

[elsewhere]

if we lose at PSG, that will mentally break us and we won't win vs Napoli last match. PSG away is the key imo.

[RedorRed]

It's bollocks about Buvac just the usual twitter bullshit to downgrade Klopp and put Buvac into a completely different plain. I'm not saying he wasn't important and had a role but this is such a shite reason and a reminder we reached the CL final without Buvac.

we just about reached it and at that point we had so much confidence that the front 3 felt like they could do anything........ not the case this season...... no connection between the midfield and the attack

[elsewhere]

Will be a very, very different team at the weekend. God help Fulham...

They probably fancy their chances if they watched tonight

[Tony19:6]

We'll draw in Paris and win at home to Napoli

[GuitarHero]

When was the last time we played really well.

I'd go far back as Roma at anfield.

Last game we had Chamberlain for albeit a short time in that game. But no coincidence. And before him we have coutinho who would get us a goal in games like tonight. Not replacing either of them is a huge error. Not sure the point of Lallana probably could have got a bit of money for him in summer.

Completely agree with this. Bearing in mind we lost Chamberlain pretty late on last season, I think he was crucial to our fast counter-attacking style of play that reaped such great rewards last season. He was the transition from the midfield to the front 3 with his pace and directness. We're missing him big time.

[nellpatel]

Didn't look like scoring for the majority of that game, it just wasn't happening for us up front. Midfield was poor, front three not good enough. Lallana, matip and Origi should be nowhere near the squad. City, United and possibly Chelsea would have found a way to get something from that. We are not used to being behind and for a long time now we have not looked capable of coming back from a losing position.

Lots to work on for Klopp and the team and a good result on Sunday is a must.

[jillcwhomever]

Have reached the point where I can't tell whether this is a legit issue or a meme.

It is the latest bollocks they talk about on twitter after every disappointing performance it is pathetic beyond words.

[RedBlakey]

That was really poor.
It's so hard to take when the football we were playing last season is so fresh in the memory.

It's so frustrating when you see some of the decisions they make, as someone else has already said Mane trying to pass the ball through a player for the 5th time was boiling my p!ss.

Tough to watch but a defeat like that has been on the cards for a while sadly.

Every man and his dog has known about the lack of creativity in midfield since Coutinho left and yet we're still sitting here bemoaning it.

[RedKenWah]

That was poor. That was seriously poor. No idea where to start on that, but it’ll end with me saying that was poor.

The lack of adventure from this side now is something I can’t fathom. The gung-ho’ness which is missing which I find difficult to watch. It’s like the players have been told to dial down on the attacking side and be more cautious and honestly it’s difficult. If we have ambitions of staying in the Champions League then surely getting qualification sown up as quickly as possible is key? Then rest/change the team. Now though we’ve left ourselves with a very difficult task.

Finally for Red Star Belgrade, fair play, 2 great goals scored and they done well tonight. We shouldn’t have let them do so well but we did...

[arab88]

nearly out of the champions, let's be honest.

virtually, both PSG and Napoli have further 3 points against Red Star, they have seen what happened to us against the Serbians and won't allow the same to happen to them.

we will have to win both our matches, against Naples at home and against PSG in Paris. I think this a very unlikely scenario to be honest.

we are screwed in the champions league, we fucked up big time.

[Fairytale of 2005]

Very disappointing. Qualification is in the balance now.

[Upinsmoke]

It's a mark of the low quality of 'debate ' in this place these days the reaction you got in your pre-match thread. I think it's become mainly a coping forum for fellas who are about two steps from suicide trying to desperately hang on to something so they bite and claw against anything said against Liverpool rather than actually giving a shite about other people and treating them in a civil manner. It's up to the mods to do better in managing these things.

Spot on mate. It's become impossible to have a conversation around the negatives in a performance of which would be discussed at a professional level (so why not here). All you get is abuse.

A few of us have been concerned for a while about the level of performance and whilst thankful for the points return have been rightly worried about certain aspects of our performance. But you can't have a reasonable debate without being called out for some kind of weird fan who is only made up when we do play poorly, which is complete bullshit.  It's just fans who care airing there concerns, it's not taking anything away from a result or whatever.

[Bend It Like Aurelio]

It's bollocks about Buvac just the usual twitter bullshit to downgrade Klopp and put Buvac into a completely different plain. I'm not saying he wasn't important and had a role but this is such a shite reason and a reminder we reached the CL final without Buvac.

This is the real reason I think. I think Klopp has taken the defensive education a little too far, and it's hurt our attacking fluidity. That in turn has given opposition teams more impetus I think, we've lost that fear factor.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2018/oct/19/-klopp-liverpool-defence

Jόrgen Klopp has said Liverpool’s impressive defensive record this season is the result of prioritising solidity over attacking fluency and a mark of his team’s growing maturity.

No Liverpool team in history have conceded as few as three goals in the opening nine matches of a league campaign but that record can be achieved with a clean sheet at Huddersfield Town on Saturday. Klopp admits the focus on defensive improvement has had a detrimental effect on Liverpool’s forward play, with Mohamed Salah, Sadio Manι and Roberto Firmino yet to recapture last season’s heights, but was necessary to provide a platform for a title challenge. He insists Liverpool can develop defensively “without killing our nature”.


The Liverpool manager, who could have Salah and Manι available after injury problems on international duty, said: “We want to be stronger defensively but that doesn’t mean we don’t have interest in offensive things. It is normal in a period of adaptation. You put the focus a bit more on something – close this gap, close this space – and immediately you lose a bit of the fluency in something else. But we have created enough chances; it’s just that we didn’t use them like we used them in the best period of last season.

“We have had good results and scored goals but it’s obvious we can improve. We need to keep the stability, no doubt about that. What we’ve done defensively so far is credit to the whole team. We don’t concede a lot of shots in general. It’s not that we don’t concede because Alisson makes one world-class save after another. We don’t let them shoot often and that’s the best thing.”

Liverpool rank ninth for the effectiveness of their pressing game among Premier League teams this season, according to Opta. Klopp believes the statistic reflects a change in tactics against Liverpool – and his team’s maturity when in winning positions – rather than a radical departure from pressing on his part.

“It’s more the case that teams don’t usually play against us,” explained Klopp. “They overplay our pressing with long balls, which makes sense. In a lot of games our counter-press has been really good, which is much more important in terms of losing the ball and winning it back. In terms of the high press, it depends on the style of play of the other team. You can’t do it if they don’t play. It’s not that we don’t want to do it any more. If they play then we should be there.

“It’s not been a proper plan to sit back a little bit more but we have done that after being 1-0 or 2-0 up in games. We did sit back a bit more to not give space away, that’s true. It’s a question of maturity and that makes absolute sense. With the number of games we have it’s not about chasing a game always like crazy, you have to be smart. We try to be that without killing our nature.”

[Redman78]

That was shit and not just a bad day at the office. There is something wrong with the team. If we are not careful, we won't even be playing in the Europa next season.

Seriously??

[The Test]

Great performance, desperately unlucky to not come away with 3 points. Plenty of positives to take for that. Especially seein Origi back to full strength. YNWA

  Thanks. Made me laugh

[Working Class Hen-Pecked Hero]

We'll draw in Paris and win at home to Napoli

Let's hope. Can't keep playing bad and expect results, something had to give. No one carrying the ball from midfield is killing us

[Jm55]

Reminds me of Beşiktaş away years ago when we got a similar result.

People saying ‘if we play like this at PSG we’ll be battered,’ I highly doubt we will, just like we didn’t play like that at home to the .

I said it before the game and I’ll say it now, it isn’t a disasterous result, although it was a terrible performance. The game in Paris is now massive, which is the exact scenario we wanted to avoid.

[The Final Third]

Not our night..hardly anything worked. Credit to Zvezda who seemed hungrier and proved utterly obdurate.

[rscanderlech]

Mo Salah is not a centre forward. It feels like towards the end of last season we shifted tactics to accommodate his brilliant form and chase for the golden boots but haven't changed back to what made us so dangerous last year in the first place.

Yep.

Our midfield tonight was unable to or scared to break the lines. Sick of seeing us try and go around 11 man blocks.

After doing so well in the second half of last season, we ended up underestimating the general importance of Coutinho to our team. We really should be using Keita more, if not signing a replacement. Our build up can never go through the middle because our midfielders can't pass or create or shoot.

Worst game I've seen from us in a long time (since Huddersfield definitely). Gotta improve.

Oh and where is that passion that drive us on last season? Watching that player go off injured banging the ground and the hospital cart made me realise none of our players are showing close to that level of caring at the moment.

Yep, our players seem to have lost the humble enthusiasm and acquired the profligacy of an ageing team of galacticos.

[garumn]

Shite. Lallana is done as a footballer at the highest level.

Still think we'll go through mind.

[RedorRed]

Not head in the cloud but what is the actual impact and how can it be shown? It's guesswork for most. What did Buvac bring, has any of it been replaced? We are unbeaten in the league and challenging for the title, it's hard to say we are suddenly lost without Buvac but I'd love to know the story of what he gave us and some genuine insight into whether him going has been a problem for us. Without that, it's speculation.

Yes we are unbeaten....... just but challenging for the title? Realistically..... no we’re not! We’re challenging for top 4 again with Chelsea, Arsenal and Spurs

[kasperoff]

How many times did we just aimlessly float the ball into the box for their keeper to catch it and then flop on the floor? From dead ball and open play.

I can barely remember us doing that all for the last 12 months, but we must have done it 15 times tonight.  Bizarre.

Ball control in general was just shit all night, to the point I was wondering if the pitch was fucked. Heavy touches, over hit passes, under hit passes, dribbling out of play, floaty turd crosses. Aimless through balls, aimless hoofs.

[liversaint]

Has to be though mate. I've been trying to play our performances down all season but that was unacceptable.

You can't be facing two fucking sharks in PSG and Napoli and fuck up against the fodder. We want to be competing for the League and Champions League this season off the back of last -  we carry on with these lethargic performances and we'll be competing for the Europa league and fourth place again.

If you are happy with that then sound. Meanwhile a few of us stink of piss or something.

Don't disagree in general mate, but some of it borders on hysteria and self entitlement, which is laughable. Digs at the manager, crapping on about new signings in jan, player abuse, yeah, sound.

[jillcwhomever]

we just about reached it and at that point we had so much confidence that the front 3 felt like they could do anything........ not the case this season...... no connection between the midfield and the attack

There are a lot of reasons for it though. World Cup fatique for some players especially at the beginning, learning a new style, adjustments of play, fitting the new players in take your pick of any of those reasons. Also, the stop-start nature of the whole season has been no help to us. Also, a lack of pre-season for the squad with the new players.

[WorldChampions]

We're brain dead in midfield.. There's no creativity. We just hoof it long these days expecting the front 3 to do something magical. Teams push Mane and Salah as wide as possible knowing full well we have no one to get goals from deeper. 

Those hoof balls have stood out like a sore thumb this season IMO. Too many aimless pumps out from the back and when we struggle to break a team down we fire in crosses to the smallest strike force going.

[TheShanklyGates]

It is the latest bollocks they talk about on twitter after every disappointing performance it is pathetic beyond words.

No more pathetic than dismissing it out of hand when the truth is we don't know what effect it has had.

[Gnurglan]

What we are missing, if we compare to last season, is AOC. I believe Keita can fill that kind of role for us, but he has not played a lot and he is still new. I ’blame’ our CM setup for this. There's nothing extra in it. We saw the kind of game we could expect. It was slow and we didn't have any combinations until Firmino came on. 

We are at our best when we attack with some speed and I want at least one CM who is more direct. Milner and Lallana are not the players for that game.

[Butter Keks]

In a way I'm glad that this has happened now rather than later. Every week we've been saying that "someone's due for a real thrashing soon" but in reality it's us who have been due a thrashing.

I've said the ''thrashing'' line a few times already this season and it finally dawned on me at 2-0 that it's actually us who deserve a tonking. Feels weird after years of smashing teams all over the shop only to come away with a point or less to be on the opposite side of the scope.

Some of our lads need a kick up the arse, hopefully tonight was it.

[kennedy81]

nearly out of the champions, let's be honest.

virtually, both PSG and Napoli have further 3 points against Red Star, they have seen what happened to us against the Serbians and won't allow the same to happen to them.

we will have to win both our matches, against Naples at home and against PSG in Paris. I think this a very unlikely scenario to be honest.

we are screwed in the champions league, we fucked up big time.

Let's wait for the tonight's result first. We might only need to beat Napoli.

[clinical]

We've been here before with Klopp though, haven't we? If the press isn't working out then we are missing the ability to break teams down. Obviously absentees and players out of form/still finding their feet after injury is a thing here too, so options even more limited than they would be otherwise.

But well played Red Star. And some more things for Klopp to think over.

Shaqiri needs to start everygame where Chamberlain played.

[BobPaisley3]

You can give up if you want, I have no intention it will go to the final game one way or another. Also it about time people realised we were in a tough group this time and this was always possible. So now we either act like losers and concede defeat, or we brush ourselves down and fight like zombies till the end. I know which one I would prefer.

Personally don’t think I’ve said anything particularly controversial. Yes it’s a tough group, we knew that but the away performances have been dire.

[surfer. Fuck you generator.]

You can defend deep and look for spaces or you can press high more, the staff can look for results in whichever way for sure, Klopp doesn't need to be hamstrung by any 'identity', but whatever you do you've got to move the ball at the necessary speed to break the opponents' lines, that was the jarring issue tonight imo, it's been there before but 2 - 0 down, the ball movement was still too slow. I think if you can fix this one thing to start with, that'll cover the other performance issues while we try to get back fully to the team's best potential.

[arab88]

Let's wait for the tonight's result first. We might only need to beat Napoli.

in which case?

[trimore]

Matip can be pretty pathetic. For a big guy he's incapable of getting his head on the ball when he's challenged. He ducks out of it, that long-throw by Gomez for example, he should be trying his best to get on that but he pulls his head away. Does my head in, that guy. Really soft.

Fully agree there is a big issue with Matip and how weak he can be. But he is our 4th choice CB and we didn't pay 75 million for Matip, we paid it for Van Dijk. It's clear every team other than PSG are sitting back on us more than ever and we are sitting back on them, mutual agreed defensiveness. It was always going to be harder on our forwards and midfield especially with the Keita and Ox injuries and Lallana's poor form.

We need something else and Van Dijk has shown the willingness, but he has to go that one step further and put the ball in the net.

[Racer]

We haven’t played well for much of this season despite getting excellent results in the league.

Creativity is a big concern and quality options from the bench to change games when behind look limited despite the squad depth in other areas.

[rocco]

Napoli win
Leaves PSG on 4

Good chance Napoli will be qualified before they come to Anfield

If we then could beat PSG we’re through

Would a draw v Napoli be enough if we draw with PSG

Since we’ve beaten PSG already

Head to heads count ?

[lgvkarlos]

Oh fucking hell ... seriously? Hate this hindsight shite - so easy to say this crap after a defeat.

Apart from the fact Klopp has said he is the brains for the last 17 years. I have no idea if he makes a difference but our tactics have completely changed this season. We may be in transition with our new tactics and they are going to come good, but playing Lallana, Matip and sturridge from the start was an odd choice.
We need to get some creativity next to gini in midfield, would keep Shaq in there if it were me.

[jillcwhomever]

No more pathetic than dismissing it out of hand when the truth is we don't know what effect it has had.

It can easily be dismissed though when people are using it to get at the manager himself. I don't doubt he played an important role but because we're struggling it becomes something that is hard to work out one way or another. We don't know the insides of the team ourselves so no one can say how much its affecting the players overall.