Topic: Is Google/WhatsApp/Facebook listening to our conversations for targeted ads?

[The Gulleysucker]

Interesting, but voice control is turned off and youtube was playing in firefox and I had closed firefox down before I closed the lid.
As I said, it just seemed unusual behaviour and while I could understand strange things happening if there were dodgy apps installed, but all I've got installed is the Amazon Kindle app, ES File Explorer and Google Skymap. It's never happened before and hopefully will never happen again but it did make me wonder.

[DHKopper]

https://www.quora.com/Why-should-I-use-DuckDuckGo-instead-of-Google

Worth a read.

[Lfsea]

Still yet to have an odd tracking incident since work switched the company mobiles to iPhone.

[Skidder.]

Interesting, but voice control is turned off and youtube was playing in firefox and I had closed firefox down before I closed the lid.
As I said, it just seemed unusual behaviour and while I could understand strange things happening if there were dodgy apps installed, but all I've got installed is the Amazon Kindle app, ES File Explorer and Google Skymap. It's never happened before and hopefully will never happen again but it did make me wonder.

I don't know if YT has voice activation, but the chances of you mumbling something in your sleep to trigger a video fo the US army is absurd.

More grounded is that it has either been triggered by a rogue app or it's just one of those things that happens - but if it was just one of those things, surely it'd happen more and more.

I'm sure this has happened to me once or twice and I think it has happened on both my laptop and phone; I definitely remember waking up one night to something on Youtube, but if memory serves, it'd been something that I'd watched before.

If you're sure you ain't got any dodgy apps installed, and you're not into that kind of thing or haven't looked it up or spoke about it, I'd put it down to just a random happening.

 

Still yet to have an odd tracking incident since work switched the company mobiles to iPhone.

Read somewhere that Apple are a bit more 'secure' than other OS's? (whatever the fuck that means nowadays)

[redgriffin73]

This is a bit of a strange one that's left me a bit stumped and I'm wondering if it has happened to anyone else.

On Sunday morning at 2am, my Google Nexus woke me up by suddenly started playing a youtube video, a strange US Military history one, despite the lid on the case being closed and it effectively being off.

This is somewhat bizarre and I haven't a decent explanation for it yet.

I only use the Nexus either as a camera for stuff to put on ebay or purely as a browser and only ever with Firefox, or to run a Kindle app and tend to use it either on train journeys or last thing at night in bed before going to sleep and I'm quite fastidious at closing down the browser when I finish before then closing the lid, and all history etc is set to be deleted. I also reboot once a week to clear down any other accumulated crud inside it and I have few apps installed, just a Kindle, a starmap and EX file explorer and my app settings are also pretty locked down.

I rarely if ever even watch anything on youtube on it, older flash stuff wont play, and certainly hadn't that evening or even recently.

It was almost as if something took control and pushed it down at me.

As some of you know, I've been in Computing for well over 40 years and I'm well versed in how to do 'interesting' stuff, but I'm not too happy with this or the possible implications.

Are you sure you didn't mean to post in this thread?

https://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=341507.0

[The Gulleysucker]

 

Are you sure you didn't mean to post in this thread?

https://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=341507.0

A real ghost in the machine...

It reminds me of an SF short story I read back in the very early 70's when I used to avidly devour them, can't remember the author, but it revolved around the then early computer networks, not really much evolved beyond old telex machines in those days, and someone jokely typing the question "Is anybody there?" and getting an answer.....I think it came from God. Can't remember much else about it other than the story outline.

[Alan_X]

A real ghost in the machine...

It reminds me of an SF short story I read back in the very early 70's when I used to avidly devour them, can't remember the author, but it revolved around the then early computer networks, not really much evolved beyond old telex machines in those days, and someone jokely typing the question "Is anybody there?" and getting an answer.....I think it came from God. Can't remember much else about it other than the story outline.

Have you ever read ‘Computers Don’t Argue’ by Gordon Dickson. A man goes from returning a copy of ‘Kidnapped’ to a book club’ to facing execution for murder in a beautifully logical but terrifying sequence of events.

[The Gulleysucker]

Don't recall it Al but I may have, it perhaps just didn't lodge in my memory, there were so many.
I've got a couple of large boxes up in the attic full of all my old SF books, I think the very first I read was my older sisters copy of City In The Stars by Clarke back in '68 and that got me going and totally absorbed into SF at the time, the whole genre was so wonderfully thought provoking to a young teenager like myself back then with the then space race as a real backdrop, horrifyingly almost 50 years ago now..

[Skidder.]

It is really weird how Computers Don't Argue has been mentioned.

I've been speaking with the new works department at a local theatre and had a meeting the other day with a bloke from there who is interested in a piece I've recently been working on - I say recent, it is about as old as this thread.

But as a part of the literal analysis, he in fact mentioned this to me and it is the second time I've heard it mentioned.

Mentioned it earlier in the thread, but if folk haven't checked it out, check out Do You Trust This Computer?

One of the more interesting subjects that was mentioned, was the Captcha's that some websites use to 'prove you are human'. I've always been dubious about those human tests and, perhaps out of paranoia, I've always tried to steer clear of sites that use them.

But one thing I didn't know is that most of them are Google (or Google-related) products - and an excellent point was made in this documentary about how - have you noticed that they are all road or geographical pictures? (akin to google street map view)

Just so happens that driverless automation is the big thing at the moment and aside of proving that you are human - you have to think where all the results go?

The documentary proposes that it is a Google Brain machine learning thing and I've always wondered there was someone benefiting from the results of all of those completed puzzles, images and so on and so forth.

Point being, while I have always been interested in Sci-Fi and the works of Vonnegut, Asimov and PKD - of late, I've been doing a lot more reading of notable writers and didn't realise the length and breadth of tech-paranoid workings of years gone by. It is kind of scary how, even before the PC boom, how spot-on some writers were.

Even in one of PKD's most notable pieces of work, he touches upon some of the debates that are raging today about AI and machine learning.

Low and behold, it is scary times, and while at points throughout this thread, I've been more than angered by what I (and others) have experienced - now I am just plain fucking scared as AI is picking up speed faster than our brains can compute.

Anyone who has spoke in this thread should really check out that documentary - regardless of what side of the fence you sit on with this thread. Seriously scary stuff.

[CraigDS]

Spoke to my missus about those DNA heath test things. Went the pub where the United game was on and just before one of the adverts was for the exact company I was on about.

Are BT tracking me?

[Skidder.]

No.

You've tried that one before - it didn't really work then.

[rob1966]

Switched over to DuckDuckGo, lets see how that goes. I've been getting more and more annoyed who Google are tracking me recently, I can't go anywhere now without them wanting recommendations and asking questions about places I have been. Also not happy with that timeline thing which shows every time I go out of the house with my phone. They do know far too much about my life, my habits, both drinking and eating and my hobbies. It is only going to get worse and if they aren't already listening in, which I do believe they have done even if they aren't right now, then they will.

It is logical really, when I first started using MyFitnessPal, I used to get pissed off with the targeted ads,showing specific items, especially as it was always for stuff I had already bought. Now anyone in advertising worth their salt would recognise that these ads are a waste, what you need to do is find out what a person is interested in buying and target them before the purchase. Whats a better way than eavesdropping on their conversations?

[Graeme]

One of the more interesting subjects that was mentioned, was the Captcha's that some websites use to 'prove you are human'. I've always been dubious about those human tests and, perhaps out of paranoia, I've always tried to steer clear of sites that use them.

You avoid websites that use Captcha’s because you think that some kind of real life Skynet is learning from your answers?

Honestly you need help.

[The Gulleysucker]

They've always been quite upfront about it.. https://developers.google.com/recaptcha/

Hundreds of millions of CAPTCHAs are solved by people every day. reCAPTCHA makes positive use of this human effort by channeling the time spent solving CAPTCHAs into digitizing text, annotating images, building machine learning datasets. This in turn helps preserve books, improve maps, and solve hard AI problems.

More here and here

It's no big deal, there's no such thing as a free lunch, you always pay somehow.

[Skidder.]

You avoid websites that use Captcha’s because you think that some kind of real life Skynet is learning from your answers?

Honestly you need help.

Erm...

No... I try to avoid them because I mistrust the sites that use them and they're a pain in the arse.

Skynet aren't real, they're from Terminator.

Google Brain is real and I'd suggest you that actually watch the documentary before trying to lambaste me.

[Skidder.]

They've always been quite upfront about it.. https://developers.google.com/recaptcha/

Hundreds of millions of CAPTCHAs are solved by people every day. reCAPTCHA makes positive use of this human effort by channeling the time spent solving CAPTCHAs into digitizing text, annotating images, building machine learning datasets. This in turn helps preserve books, improve maps, and solve hard AI problems.

More here and here

It's no big deal, there's no such thing as a free lunch, you always pay somehow.

Still a pain in the arse and they're popping up more and more on regular sites and forums that I use.

No free lunch, of course - but I pay my broadband bills and these captchas are cropping up more and more.

Dragging from the original point, it is an interesting point that the documentary points to - if you haven't seen it, have a look.   

Switched over to DuckDuckGo, lets see how that goes. I've been getting more and more annoyed who Google are tracking me recently, I can't go anywhere now without them wanting recommendations and asking questions about places I have been. Also not happy with that timeline thing which shows every time I go out of the house with my phone. They do know far too much about my life, my habits, both drinking and eating and my hobbies. It is only going to get worse and if they aren't already listening in, which I do believe they have done even if they aren't right now, then they will.

It is logical really, when I first started using MyFitnessPal, I used to get pissed off with the targeted ads,showing specific items, especially as it was always for stuff I had already bought. Now anyone in advertising worth their salt would recognise that these ads are a waste, what you need to do is find out what a person is interested in buying and target them before the purchase. Whats a better way than eavesdropping on their conversations?

There isn't a better way really - they can scrabble about and use some of the methods that they've been using for years and have a tit-for-tat over SEO and other small-scale marketing tactics that any old joe can learn about with a book or an internet connection.

Social Networks are another way, and this new term of 'influencers' is totally amusing. Door-to-door salesman of the digital age and nothing more.

All these methods mentioned in this thread are great and all, and are obviously being used by enlarge - but if something can be done without (or sometimes with) informed consent, time and time again, corporations and companies have proven for years and years that they'll do it to get ahead of the competition.

I've used Duck and Go for a while myself, it is a very good search engine.

 

[The Gulleysucker]

Still a pain in the arse and they're popping up more and more on regular sites and forums that I use.
....

There is a newer version that does away with the user interaction reCaptcha3.0 and I expect doesn't update their machine learning backend in quite such a visible way.

reCAPTCHA v3 will never interrupt your users, so you can run it whenever you like without affecting conversion. reCAPTCHA works best when it has the most context about interactions with your site, which comes from seeing both legitimate and abusive behavior. For this reason, we recommend including reCAPTCHA verification on forms or actions as well as in the background of pages for analytics.

[Skidder.]

There is a newer version that does away with the user interaction reCaptcha3.0 and I expect doesn't update their machine learning backend in quite such a visible way.

reCAPTCHA v3 will never interrupt your users, so you can run it whenever you like without affecting conversion. reCAPTCHA works best when it has the most context about interactions with your site, which comes from seeing both legitimate and abusive behavior. For this reason, we recommend including reCAPTCHA verification on forms or actions as well as in the background of pages for analytics.

Haven't got a bloody clue what that means - but the only improvements I see with any update of late (on any platform) has been, at a ballpark guess, 25/75 in the developer's favour.

Yes, fair play, you expect a little tidbit of work on your part for 'free' services or websites and the party had to end somewhere - I don't begrudge that side of things - but over the past few years, the monetization methods, generally, have hit new levels of greed in some corners.

I'm sure Captcha will help a lot - but we've seen a steady progression of different disciplines attached. Whereas at one time, it was a simple 'What is 1+2?', is now genuinely more complex puzzles and questions. I've even seen some asking to identify wildlife and nature puzzles. With machine learning in mind, what could a machine possibly learn from that? In practical terms of course.

Well, I mean, I guess there's a lot of money in stock photographs!

I know the opposing factor here is that some websites will actually be continually hit by bots and/or scripted attacks - so there will of course be a massive element of security and, exactly what is says on the tin 'to prove you're human'; but then, that just proves again how quick AI is in fact progressing.

It's just mad as shit on a stick!

[The Gulleysucker]

Couldn't find anywhere else to put this, and since it's primarily about the likes of Google, I'll stick it here.

It's a quite excellent little read in todays Observer ...  https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/jan/20/shoshana-zuboff-age-of-surveillance-capitalism-google-facebook

The author (the very smart Shoshana Zuboff) is suggesting, and with some academic heft, that we are witnessing a mutation of Capitalism, though perhaps just not recognising it at the moment.

...The headline story is that it’s not so much about the nature of digital technology as about a new mutant form of capitalism that has found a way to use tech for its purposes. The name Zuboff has given to the new variant is “surveillance capitalism”. It works by providing free services that billions of people cheerfully use, enabling the providers of those services to monitor the behaviour of those users in astonishing detail – often without their explicit consent.

“Surveillance capitalism,” she writes, “unilaterally claims human experience as free raw material for translation into behavioural data. Although some of these data are applied to service improvement, the rest are declared as a proprietary behavioural surplus, fed into advanced manufacturing processes known as ‘machine intelligence’, and fabricated into prediction products that anticipate what you will do now, soon, and later. Finally, these prediction products are traded in a new kind of marketplace that I call behavioural futures markets. Surveillance capitalists have grown immensely wealthy from these trading operations, for many companies are willing to lay bets on our future behaviour.”

While the general modus operandi of Google, Facebook et al has been known and understood (at least by some people) for a while, what has been missing – and what Zuboff provides – is the insight and scholarship to situate them in a wider context. She points out that while most of us think that we are dealing merely with algorithmic inscrutability, in fact what confronts us is the latest phase in capitalism’s long evolution – from the making of products, to mass production, to managerial capitalism, to services, to financial capitalism, and now to the exploitation of behavioural predictions covertly derived from the surveillance of users. In that sense, her vast (660-page) book is a continuation of a tradition that includes Adam Smith, Max Weber, Karl Polanyi and – dare I say it – Karl Marx.

It looks like her book could be very thought provoking.

[ChaChaMooMoo]

My wife and I had a colleague visit us over on Wednesday. My wife wants to study further. The colleague is already a graduate in the field that my wife wants to study. So we were discussing her options and the name of a school repeatedly came up. We spoke about her options for about 3 hours altogether. And we retired for the night after the colleague left for her home.

Yesterday morning I fired up our computer to browse and viola. There was an ad for the very same university. It cant be coincidence. I had never seen ads for this school (or any school) ever in my life. And suddenly yesterday morning, the advert just happens to appear, by coincidence.

Furnitures yes. Job searches yes. Even properties for rentals and car rentals. But schools? Nah.

[Graeme]

If your wife wants to study, and this University offers study in that field, are you telling me that at no point ever has she researched the course online?

[CraigDS]

If your wife wants to study, and this University offers study in that field, are you telling me that at no point ever has she researched the course online?

Or even researching other courses at other universities. It will all add to the profile the likes of Google builds up to decide which ads to serve you.

[Alan_X]

My wife and I had a colleague visit us over on Wednesday. My wife wants to study further. The colleague is already a graduate in the field that my wife wants to study. So we were discussing her options and the name of a school repeatedly came up. We spoke about her options for about 3 hours altogether. And we retired for the night after the colleague left for her home.

Yesterday morning I fired up our computer to browse and viola. There was an ad for the very same university. It cant be coincidence. I had never seen ads for this school (or any school) ever in my life. And suddenly yesterday morning, the advert just happens to appear, by coincidence.

Furnitures yes. Job searches yes. Even properties for rentals and car rentals. But schools? Nah.

Just as a general point. The statement ‘it can’t be a coincidence’ is essentially meaningless. A coincidence is two unrelated things occurring in close proximity. That’s all. And coincidences happen all the time.

What happened might seem unlikely to you. It’s the lottery fallacy - confusing the low probability that a particular event might happen to you as an individual with the high probability that the same event will happen to at least one person in a large population.

[ChaChaMooMoo]

Just seeing your replies.

If your wife wants to study, and this University offers study in that field, are you telling me that at no point ever has she researched the course online?

Or even researching other courses at other universities. It will all add to the profile the likes of Google builds up to decide which ads to serve you.

My wife was indeed researching about some courses online. But she didn't visit the website for this university. It could well be that the ads were generated after some keyword search that linked the search engine to the university names. But the ad for this particular university? And mind you, there are about 300 universities with the course similar to the course.

Just as a general point. The statement ‘it can’t be a coincidence’ is essentially meaningless. A coincidence is two unrelated things occurring in close proximity. That’s all. And coincidences happen all the time.

What happened might seem unlikely to you. It’s the lottery fallacy - confusing the low probability that a particular event might happen to you as an individual with the high probability that the same event will happen to at least one person in a large population.

So  Is Google/WhatsApp/Facebook listening to our conversations for targeted ads?

[CraigDS]

My wife was indeed researching about some courses online. But she didn't visit the website for this university. It could well be that the ads were generated after some keyword search that linked the search engine to the university names. But the ad for this particular university? And mind you, there are about 300 universities with the course similar to the course.

There is your link then. That’s exactly how Google Ads works, when you place ads you can target users who have searched specific terms (and terms Google thinks are linked to these terms). The adverts have probably come up before if she has been researching but you’ve not noticed, and then after speaking about that particularly Uni the name was in your head so when the advert came up again you noticed it.

[Alan_X]

So  Is Google/WhatsApp/Facebook listening to our conversations for targeted ads?

Probably not - for the reasons I've stated before. It's not a very efficient way of getting information compared to all the other data that Google and Facebook get from us voluntarily.

[Skidder.]

Probably not - for the reasons I've stated before. It's not a very efficient way of getting information compared to all the other data that Google and Facebook get from us voluntarily.

My wife and I had a colleague visit us over on Wednesday. My wife wants to study further. The colleague is already a graduate in the field that my wife wants to study. So we were discussing her options and the name of a school repeatedly came up. We spoke about her options for about 3 hours altogether. And we retired for the night after the colleague left for her home.

Yesterday morning I fired up our computer to browse and viola. There was an ad for the very same university. It cant be coincidence. I had never seen ads for this school (or any school) ever in my life. And suddenly yesterday morning, the advert just happens to appear, by coincidence.

Furnitures yes. Job searches yes. Even properties for rentals and car rentals. But schools? Nah.

Yep. Do you use the same computer? If so, do you use the same browser?

The issue with all of this chatter in the past few years has been that there are, as has been stated, other ways which targeted ads can be... well.. targeted.

If you think, like, there'd be say, five or six nodes on how you get targeted ads... cookies, browser history, Google searches, and that is before you even bring in Facebook. (think that shit film with Will Smith and Gene Hackman).

If your missus has researched it on the laptop or even her phone, Google (I'm assuming she's on a Google-based OS?), it'd be shared across all devices and you'd probably see ads across all your shared devices.

I've had instances where I know this hasn't occurred, and am still convinced there's a node for 'hot words'; but if you share your main computer and even possibly browser, then there'd be plenty of red flags there.

Do you have the same windows log-in and browser?
 

[The Gulleysucker]

Couldn't find anywhere else to put this, and since it's primarily about the likes of Google, I'll stick it here.

It's a quite excellent little read in todays Observer ...  https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/jan/20/shoshana-zuboff-age-of-surveillance-capitalism-google-facebook

More on this theme from Roger McNamee, one of the original investors in Facebook .....

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2019/feb/16/roger-mcnamee-zucked-waking-up-to-the-facebook-catastrophe-interview

Mark Zuckerberg’s mentor and an early investor in Facebook on why his book Zucked urges people to turn away from big tech’s toxic business model....

[BlackandWhitePaul]

On my imac computer I have some blue tac shoved in the microphone hole and over the little built in camera.

Hey, the Zuck has tape over his.   He knows the score, right.     

[ChaChaMooMoo]

Yep. Do you use the same computer? If so, do you use the same browser?

Do you have the same windows log-in and browser?
 

Well yes. We do share the same desktop. She did do some some research on the course. Not the university. She hadnt heard of this university until my colleague mentioned this during dinner.

My qualm about this whole advertisement is not that the advertisement popped up in itself. I get how cookies and history work and google works this into advertisements.  She was researching about some courses and some courses suggestions were going to come up depending on history and cookies. I get that.

I dont think it was advertised for the course in the university. If my wife indeed searched for courses then, an advertisement based on the course should have been there because the course was offered in this university. And 300 other universities in the country. But no. It was an ad for the university with a targeted "click here to apply". And one of the reasons I can think of is that the name happened to crop up multiple times in the previous evening.

[CraigDS]

There are many more obvious reasons which you’ve outlined yourself though

[Graeme]

Correct. Dunno why this thread is still running.

[Skidder.]

Well yes. We do share the same desktop. She did do some some research on the course. Not the university. She hadnt heard of this university until my colleague mentioned this during dinner.

My qualm about this whole advertisement is not that the advertisement popped up in itself. I get how cookies and history work and google works this into advertisements.  She was researching about some courses and some courses suggestions were going to come up depending on history and cookies. I get that.

I dont think it was advertised for the course in the university. If my wife indeed searched for courses then, an advertisement based on the course should have been there because the course was offered in this university. And 300 other universities in the country. But no. It was an ad for the university with a targeted "click here to apply". And one of the reasons I can think of is that the name happened to crop up multiple times in the previous evening.

Well in that case, if you're 100% sure your missus has never google'd or researched it and it was mentioned at a gathering, then you got an advert for it. I mean if you're sure of that, then of course it is possible. For the record, I glossed over your post if I'm honest and didn't fully get where your suspicions lay - but now I get you and I fully get why you'd be suspicious.

What phone is it?

Correct. Dunno why this thread is still running.

Why?

[Graeme]

Why?

16 pages of tin hat paranoia countered with plausible explanations.

[Skidder.]

16 pages of tin hat paranoia countered with plausible explanations.

I think most who engage in this thread are past the 'tin hat paranoia' phase, and the fact that there is conference on a subject that is far from proven either way is a good thing.

16 pages of discussion over a three year period and you just want it to get locked because someone posted their concerns that they've experienced something similar to the many others on this thread and elsewhere.

So I dunno, it might be easier to just leave and ignore it if it irks you, rather than make rash statements that have a plausible chance of biting you on the arse at some point in the future. 

[Elmo!]

16 pages of tin hat paranoia countered with plausible explanations.

That is precisely why it should remain open, it is educating users who would otherwise go further down the tin hat rabbit hole.

[Alan_X]

Unbreakabke Kimmy Schmidt taking the piss:

Kimmy: Shaun White just said hi to me in the elevator while I was drinking a glass of water, so we can't be the same person.

[CELL PHONE CHIMES]

Kimmy: Chutes and ladders. Zach! Remember how I was talking about getting horses and going to London?

Zach: I remember everything that's ever happened to me. It's horrible.

Kimmy:Well, check out this sugar. I just got ads for flights to London and horse insurance. What are the odds?

Zach: Um, 100%? You know what we do here, right?

Kimmy: We helped make that game, right? Nom-Nom? They made a movie based on it, and James Cordon played...

Zach: The code we wrote for that game lets us track and listen to our users, see what their phone cameras are seeing, and look inside their mouths. Oral health is linked to mental health, socioeconomic status, and brand allegiance. You're crazy and poor.

Kimmy: So we spy on people?

Zach: No, we data mine. This is what everything on the Internet does.
If something's free, it's probably watching you bathroom.

Kimmy: Not my Golden Showers app.
It gives me digi-coins.

Zach: Anyway, then we sell that data to third parties, and they tell you what to buy, how to vote, what color scrunchie to wear.

Kimmy: Nuh-uh! I chose this color to honor Toyotathon.
[GASPS SOFTLY] Dagnabbit.

[S]

This isn't worth starting a thread about, so I'll add it on here.

On YouTube, has anyone else noticed that ads are a lot harder to close than normal videos? If I'm on my phone and choose to close a video, I can swipe down and dismiss it instantly. When an ad is playing and I try to do the same my phone is a lot less responsive.

[Brian Blessed]

Not being listened too, but listening in. My 11yo pointed out to me that if you have an iphone and airpods you can you something called Live Listen, allowing you to listen in to the room where your phone is while you are elsewhere (presumably maxed by the distance they stay connected, which is quite a lot). This seems a bit dodgy to me. I can think of some legit uses, but also a few dodgy ones.

[BlackandWhitePaul]

I'm not sure where to put this so will leave it here, I found it an interesting read.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-sh/hated_and_hunted_the_computer_virus_malware_ransomware_cracker