Topic: Brexit. the Con continues

[redbyrdz]

Knock on impact of higher wages for HGV drivers.

https://www.cips.org/supply-management/news/2021/october/services-threatened-as-councils-priced-out-by-high-driver-wages/

Not quite sure what you need to drive a gritter,  but it seems a fair bit smaller than a HGV.

[Nobby Reserve]

Remain fucked themselves as well, though, by running a dull, stilted campaign, full of dry facts and figures and graphs and charts, like they were lecturing to a room full of economists and accountants.

Leave, on the other hand, tapped into people's feelings, like they were on stage at Glasto, crooning and promising and making people feel excited and taller and better about themselves, and tapping into patriotic fervour.

Yeah, they told lies and cheated and manipulated people, but they had a direct line to people's guts and hearts with all their soverign, imperialist, sunlit uplands and xenophobic shite.

I'm not saying Remain (or is it now Return?) need to lie and cheat and make impossible claims and promises, but we need to learn some lessons and work on the romance of it all, the visceral positives and benefits of rejoining Europe, not just economic forecasts and stats and boring tables of figures.

If there's one thing the Brexit campaigns showed it's that people will swallow lies and accept manipulation and even proposed hardships if you win their hearts with a narrative.

There were millions of people who felt the current system wasn't benefiting them - that the economic gains people like Cameron, Gideon, the BoE and many other apparently financially comfortable and besuited people were talking about.

But then, the hands of the Remain campaign were tied with Cameron & Gideon at the helm.

They were hardly likely to talk about how many of the Tory MPs in the Leave campaign wanted to keep the BOTs/CDs within the 'secrecy jurisdiction' network of tax havens. Or that the 'bonfires of red tape' that Tory MPs spoke of were really bonfires of protections for workers, for the environment, for consumers, so that businesses could make even more profit.

They could hardly explain that all these Eastern European tradespeople being here meant that not only jobs in our homes had become far more reasonably priced, but the more conscientious working practices and attitudes by these Eastern Europeans had led to improvements with British tradespeople as well.


The timing of the Referendum couldn't have been worse for Remain, as every star aligned for the Leave shysters. We had the continuing refugee impacts from the Arab Spring (with Merkel throwing open the borders) and a EU-sceptic leader of a Labour Party where the well-known big hitters had run off to the back-benches, so that the Party as a whole didn't mobilise for Remain and extol the sort of virtues of the EU that the Tories couldn't.

[oldfordie]

I wonder how many people knew how they were going to vote the moment the referendum was announced, I would think it was very high, millions had already made there minds up before the arguments for and against leaving were made.
Leave supporters jumped on any argument to justify voting leave, how many times did were see Leave voters stand up and tell us they hate all these EU rules and regulations but they could only come up with Bendy Bananas when asked to name a EU  law they hate, embarrassing. how they turned on remain supporters arguing nobody knows if we will get a good deal, they had no idea on the implications of Mays red lines, she destroyed any chance of a good deal with those red lines. get behind the government to get a good deal was just  as bad as anything Johnsons argued but not much made of it since.

[TSC]

I wonder how many people knew how they were going to vote the moment the referendum was announced, I would think it was very high, millions had already made there minds up before the arguments for and against leaving were made.
Leave supporters jumped on any argument to justify voting leave, how many times did were see Leave voters stand up and tell us they hate all these EU rules and regulations but they could only come up with Bendy Bananas when asked to name a EU  law they hate, embarrassing. how they turned on remain supporters arguing nobody knows if we will get a good deal, they had no idea on the implications of Mays red lines, she destroyed any chance of a good deal with those red lines. get behind the government to get a good deal was just  as bad as anything Johnsons argued but not much made of it since.

Personally I researched beyond the rhetoric.  I knew the figure on the infamous bus was nonsense as it omitted what we get back etc.  It didn’t take much research (couple of hours on Google) to see that beyond the intangibles like sovereignty etc, there was zip substance.  Had I found real reasons to vote leave I would’ve voted leave.  But there was none.

Plus I was aware what we got back from the EU helped transform via redevelopment cities such as Liverpool, Glasgow, Belfast, Hull, etc, through the 90s and beyond.  Signs referencing ‘part funded by the EU’ were everywhere.

[killer-heels]

I wonder how many people knew how they were going to vote the moment the referendum was announced, I would think it was very high, millions had already made there minds up before the arguments for and against leaving were made.
Leave supporters jumped on any argument to justify voting leave, how many times did were see Leave voters stand up and tell us they hate all these EU rules and regulations but they could only come up with Bendy Bananas when asked to name a EU  law they hate, embarrassing. how they turned on remain supporters arguing nobody knows if we will get a good deal, they had no idea on the implications of Mays red lines, she destroyed any chance of a good deal with those red lines. get behind the government to get a good deal was just  as bad as anything Johnsons argued but not much made of it since.

I volunteered for the Remain campaign (that's the last time I ever sign up for any referendum/election campaign) and I was 100% convinced Leave would win. Spend an hour speaking to the public, and it was clear.

[oldfordie]

Personally I researched beyond the rhetoric.  I knew the figure on the infamous bus was nonsense as it omitted what we get back etc.  It didn’t take much research (couple of hours on Google) to see that beyond the intangibles like sovereignty etc, there was zip substance.  Had I found real reasons to vote leave I would’ve voted leave.  But there was none.

Plus I was aware what we got back from the EU helped transform via redevelopment cities such as Liverpool, Glasgow, Belfast, Hull, etc, through the 90s and beyond.  Signs referencing ‘part funded by the EU’ were everywhere.

I think that was the big part of the problem. lack of knowledge. I was against leaving for the same reason I voted remain back in the 70s. very simple reasons. our goods would cost 10%+ more in shops abroad. imports  UK based companies will become less competitive with the vast majority of major nations all over the world. add on the barriers to trade and the decision soon became a no brainer.  the research into the genius of the single market made me realise we had taken so much for granted which will be thrown away.
I think the referendum exposed a lot of our MPs. clueless.Frottage coming out with all sorts of lies without being challenged, too late now but he would be torn apart today as we all know far more.

[oldfordie]

I volunteered for the Remain campaign (that's the last time I ever sign up for any referendum/election campaign) and I was 100% convinced Leave would win. Spend an hour speaking to the public, and it was clear.

I know what you mean, I soon learned everyone hated something about the EU so they were voting leave, no weighing up the pros and cons, no concern over any of the warnings. am voting leave for all sorts of weird irrelevant reasons that had sod all to do with the EU.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

New trade deal with New Zealand.

Worth less than 0.2%


And worth far less than what we had.



Yay?

[jonnypb]

New trade deal with New Zealand.

Worth less than 0.2%


And worth far less than what we had.



Yay?

It’s a kick in the face for British farmers as New Zealand can now sell more lamb to the UK. Surely that is having a negative impact for the UK? We can flood the supermarkets with lamb that is flown half way round the world (carbon footprint), or we could have supported British farming more and used good quality British lamb.

However, if you like your wine and kiwis then you might be pleased…….. A bottle of New Zealand Sauvignon Blanc ends up being 20p cheaper….. oh and kiwis could be cheaper as well……. Yippee

[BeingJohnMarkovic]

New trade deal with New Zealand.

Worth less than 0.2%

And worth far less than what we had.

Yay?

UK in "we're unable to strike the trade deals that the deluded Leavers lied about" shocker. At least the evil foreigners are gone now anyway. That's the main thing. Apparently.

[Nobby Reserve]

I know I'm preaching to the converted here, but in case anyone was in any doubt about the motivations of the Tory Party...

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/politics/sunak-to-slash-tax-on-bank-profits-just-weeks-after-national-insurance-hike-296163/

[Red-Soldier]

British leavers and remainers as polarised as ever, survey finds

Nine out of 10 people would vote the same way again, but leavers feel better about UK politics since Brexit

Brexit divisions in UK society appear to be as entrenched as ever, according to the latest British social attitudes survey, with little sign that the issue is losing its polarising force. Nine in 10 of leave and remain voters said they would vote the same way again, it found.

Although Britain’s departure from the EU pushed overall public trust and confidence in government to its highest level for more than a decade, the survey reveals that this surge in support for the UK political system came almost entirely from leave voters – with remainers as disillusioned as they were previously.

The survey co-author Sir John Curtice said the latest findings contained little to indicate that Brexit wounds were healing. “As a result, Britain is left divided between one half of the country who now feel better about how they are being governed and another half who, relatively at least, are as unhappy as they have ever been.”

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/oct/21/british-leavers-and-remainers-as-polarised-as-ever-survey-finds

[JohnnoWhite]

I'm genuinely astonished by the dearth of our native wit re Brexit. The shite we've endured, the NI smouldering question, the privatisation of OUR NHS under our very noses, the tax assaults on the unemployed, the chaos on our distribution services under these self-proclaimed Tory masters of business acumen, the energy whirlpool that sucks in double the costs of lighting and heating and the list of total fuck-ups by these couldn't-give-a-shit Tory mobsters. They got their tax-havens secured by getting out of the most economically powerful trading grouping on the planet and just look at the fucking mess!!

[PaulF]

Normally i find your posts a bit left wing for me johnno. But I totally agree with every point in that last post .

[TSC]

Lorry driver shortages? Dominic Raab wants criminals to fill the gap.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/fuel-crisis-london-dominic-raab-hgv-drivers-b958018.html

[oldfordie]

New trade deal with New Zealand.

Worth less than 0.2%


And worth far less than what we had.



Yay?

Sickening part of all this is leave voters will think the Torys have done us proud, negotiated a deal with a country to sell us cheaper imports without anything in return for UK industries.  these deals will continue, we will have no problem getting other countries to sell us anything cheaper. other countries must think we've gone mad.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Lorry driver shortages? Dominic Raab wants criminals to fill the gap.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/fuel-crisis-london-dominic-raab-hgv-drivers-b958018.html

[Trump's tiny tiny hands]

New trade deal with New Zealand.

Worth less than 0.2%


And worth far less than what we had.



Yay?

Big yay in NZ. They’re lauding this deal everywhere. And that tells you exactly what the UK caved into to secure the deal.

[PaulF]

Sickening part of all this is leave voters will think the Torys have done us proud, negotiated a deal with a country to sell us cheaper imports without anything in return for UK industries.  these deals will continue, we will have no problem getting other countries to sell us anything cheaper. other countries must think we've gone mad.

We can sell them tractors tarrif free now

And something about working out living or studying there. Obviously there are attractions to that. But Europe is a bit nearer.

[Nobby Reserve]

The CO2 shortages a few weeks ago hit the headlines, and was caused by the cessation of [energy-intensive] fertiliser production due to the astronomical wholesale gas prices.

I've heard from a farmer that at present, nitrogen fertiliser is simply all but unavailable to buy. Some farmers bought in the summer, and are having to keep it [literally in some cases] under armed guard. Farmers across the UK are now sweating that they won't have nitrogen-based fertiliser for spreading beginning in late winter/early spring. Most modern crops are modified and require 'a range of inputs' or they will likely fail. At best, without the normal levels of nitrogen-based fertiliser you're looking at 50% crop yields.

Even once fertiliser production reaches full capacity again, as there are no stocks remaining, you're talking anywhere from 3 to 5 months before there'll be enough fertiliser produced to meet full agricultural need. So this needs to be resolved now.

Given their previous track record on responding to severe warnings by experts, I reckon we can except this inept government to implement a half-arsed plan sometime around June '22.

[JohnnoWhite]

Normally i find your posts a bit left wing for me johnno. But I totally agree with every point in that last post .

Paul I am a socialist 75 years of age and I don't expect others to hold the very same political views as do I. However, when ALL of us are under the Tory cosh as we are right now and it would seem for the foreseeable future, the compass points left, right or centre are basically irrelevant. Our many millions are the unwitting victims of the biggest political scam since the South Sea bubble burst! Were I 35 years younger, I'd be agitating for a social and political revolution in our country.
We were literally sold down the River "Elitist" by these obscene multi-millionaire Tories who are quite content now we're gone from the EU solely that their private island tax havens might remain untouched and quite unapologetically safe from any tax demands from the EU landing on the doorsteps of their mansions.

That millions of us are much impoverished as a consequence of their treacherous avarice is of no consequence whatsoever to the ruling class. They are as abscesses on the arse of humanity and require a metaphorical lancing.

[oldfordie]

Paul I am a socialist 75 years of age and I don't expect others to hold the very same political views as do I. However, when ALL of us are under the Tory cosh as we are right now and it would seem for the foreseeable future, the compass points left or right is immaterial. Our many millions are the unwitting victims of the biggest political scam since the South Sea bubble burst! Were I 35 years younger, I'd be agitating for a social and political revolution in our country.
We were literally sold down the River "Elitist" by these obscene multi-millionaire Tories who are quite content now we're gone from the EU solely that their private island tax havens might remain untouched and quite unapologetically safe from any tax demands from the EU landing on the doorsteps of their mansions.

That millions of us are much impoverished as a consequence of their treacherous avarice is of no consequence whatsoever to the ruling class. They are as abscesses on the arse of humanity and require a metaphorical lancing.

The problem is the Language scares the s,, out of people but the point ive tried to make over the last 5 yrs or so is the extreme right have the same intentions. they also want a political and social revolution that favours the rich and powerful.
People take the p..out of the US Trump supporters but many UK Johnson pro leave supporters have many of the same fears, they are scared s,, of the lefts support for what they believe to be communism. problem is the people who fear all this are totally oblivious to the damage a extreme right government like Johnsons will do to their future and more importantly the future of their children and grand children.

[redbyrdz]

The CO2 shortages a few weeks ago hit the headlines, and was caused by the cessation of [energy-intensive] fertiliser production due to the astronomical wholesale gas prices.

I've heard from a farmer that at present, nitrogen fertiliser is simply all but unavailable to buy. Some farmers bought in the summer, and are having to keep it [literally in some cases] under armed guard. Farmers across the UK are now sweating that they won't have nitrogen-based fertiliser for spreading beginning in late winter/early spring. Most modern crops are modified and require 'a range of inputs' or they will likely fail. At best, without the normal levels of nitrogen-based fertiliser you're looking at 50% crop yields.

Even once fertiliser production reaches full capacity again, as there are no stocks remaining, you're talking anywhere from 3 to 5 months before there'll be enough fertiliser produced to meet full agricultural need. So this needs to be resolved now.

Given their previous track record on responding to severe warnings by experts, I reckon we can except this inept government to implement a half-arsed plan sometime around June '22.

Ah, if the harvest is down, no need for those foreigners to come and work on the fields...

[Nobby Reserve]

Ah, if the harvest is down, no need for those foreigners to come and work on the fields...

 

Of course! How did I miss the genius of the Bozo Brains Trust?

[TSC]

New trade deal with New Zealand.

Worth less than 0.2%


And worth far less than what we had.



Yay?

Government must hate the UK farming industry.  First they loose subsidies from the EU and then this.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/new-zealand-trade-deal-impact-economy-b1942641.html

[12C]

Frottage being his normal self yet didn’t realise his grift involved a shout out to the IRA.

https://mobile.twitter.com/ClaireByrneLive/status/1450227109130014723

taking his grift across the water.
Public school educated posh English dickhead telling the Irish that they are being oppressed by the EU
when  Ireland was actually oppressed by public school English dickheads for hundreds of years
I swear he was about to cry when she confronted him with evidence of his own ignorance.

[hide5seek]

If there is no minimum wage how can people earn less than that? More importantly, if your an employer you have to put a price on a job, rather than just saying minimum wage. If its not enough people wont take the job.

Too many employers started advertsing any job at minimum wage knowing there would be someone from the 500m pool of talent that would be desperate enough to do it.

Its just not as simple as you make out https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/keir-starmer-labour-fire-rehire-b1942782.html

[PaulF]

I see today the beeb are saying that the budget might allow a vat reduction in energy costs. Something we couldn't do when in Europe. Seems plausible. ( Starting BBC as source rather than trying to link it)

From linked in, it seems they have got 500MW of power following across that interconnector that was on fire and soon to be 1000MW. That should help fuel prices too. ( Not brexit related, just interesting to the other energy geeks here)

[jillcwhomever]

You think it's bad now, wait until this happens. The article is under a paywall so I can't paste it here, but it hardly bares thinking about, it would be total chaos.

David Conn
@david_conn
·
26m
‘EU considering ending Brexit trade deal if UK triggers Article 16’:

“Shutting down the trade accord would play havoc with a British economy already plagued by supply shortages ...”

[kopite77]

Paul I am a socialist 75 years of age and I don't expect others to hold the very same political views as do I. However, when ALL of us are under the Tory cosh as we are right now and it would seem for the foreseeable future, the compass points left, right or centre are basically irrelevant. Our many millions are the unwitting victims of the biggest political scam since the South Sea bubble burst! Were I 35 years younger, I'd be agitating for a social and political revolution in our country.
We were literally sold down the River "Elitist" by these obscene multi-millionaire Tories who are quite content now we're gone from the EU solely that their private island tax havens might remain untouched and quite unapologetically safe from any tax demands from the EU landing on the doorsteps of their mansions.

That millions of us are much impoverished as a consequence of their treacherous avarice is of no consequence whatsoever to the ruling class. They are as abscesses on the arse of humanity and require a metaphorical lancing.

Never change Johnno, you are like a breath of fresh air on these forums mate!

[villagelife]

Its just not as simple as you make out https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/keir-starmer-labour-fire-rehire-b1942782.html

A fucking disgrace, and not one comment from a union, thats the really disgruntling part. The unions dont realise what a golden chalice they have been given, and the bakers union are more concerned about what to call something with a cervix at the last conference, than actually looking out for their memebrs. The unions could bring the country too its knees if they wanted, and if they knew that, then they could actually stop some of these practices. Again emplyers knew in the past that they has a 500m pool of labour to fall back on, not any more.

I read some gigaworkers won a case about employment rights this week, the case wasnt brought about by their union though, but by a firm of lawyers who simply did it for the money.

The unions hsould be pushing to scrap minimum wage, and better workers conditions especially for people in the gig economy. if you dont agree on the minnimun wage getting abolished, just watch how many emeployers come and say its a good thing. The unions should come up with a list of reasonable demands, present it to the governement, and then give them some time to implment, if not threaten to call a strike. Thats how the workers in this country should keep a check on the people in power.

[PaulF]

I get your point about minimum wage village, but I'm parking my thoughts as I'm sure other posters can put it better. Interesting point about Union strength too. Without being able to bring in EU labour then unions are stronger. Not necessarily a good thing. But it might bring some balance to the force.

[TSC]

I see today the beeb are saying that the budget might allow a vat reduction in energy costs. Something we couldn't do when in Europe. Seems plausible. ( Starting BBC as source rather than trying to link it)

Don’t think that’s correct as EU nation states are free to set their own VAT rates. 

https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/taxation/vat/vat-rules-rates/index_en.htm

Tories have previously increased VAT on fuel for example

https://www.libdemvoice.org/the-tories-not-the-eu-are-responsible-for-vat-on-domestic-fuel-50772.html

[rob1966]

Not quite sure what you need to drive a gritter,  but it seems a fair bit smaller than a HGV.

HGV C or the old class 2. A fully loaded gritter can weigh 26 tonnes. Class 2 work pays as much and sometimes more than class 1, and coming up to Christmas the money the agencies will be screwing the hauliers for will be way more than gritters get and its a lot safer

[TSC]

Tory mp wants kuenssberg want replaced with a brexiteer.  Thought Laura done that job anyway with Cummings as her source.

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/senior-tory-mp-says-kuenssberg-replacement-should-be-pro-brexit-297876/

[hide5seek]

A fucking disgrace, and not one comment from a union, thats the really disgruntling part. The unions dont realise what a golden chalice they have been given, and the bakers union are more concerned about what to call something with a cervix at the last conference, than actually looking out for their memebrs. The unions could bring the country too its knees if they wanted, and if they knew that, then they could actually stop some of these practices. Again emplyers knew in the past that they has a 500m pool of labour to fall back on, not any more.

I read some gigaworkers won a case about employment rights this week, the case wasnt brought about by their union though, but by a firm of lawyers who simply did it for the money.

The unions hsould be pushing to scrap minimum wage, and better workers conditions especially for people in the gig economy. if you dont agree on the minnimun wage getting abolished, just watch how many emeployers come and say its a good thing. The unions should come up with a list of reasonable demands, present it to the governement, and then give them some time to implment, if not threaten to call a strike. Thats how the workers in this country should keep a check on the people in power.

Your talking of utopia and life isn't like that. There will be people disadvantaged by having no minimum wage. Unscrupulous bosses are out there.
You're not going to get unions joining together and holding the country to ransom, those days are long gone. We have a compliant nation who as it is in the main hate unions.

[PaulF]

Now though is the right time for the unions to look at their image and leverage the power they now yield now that they can't be undercut by EU workers. I guess this mainly applied to unions in the services sector otherwise we just import goods.

[oldfordie]

Now though is the right time for the unions to look at their image and leverage the power they now yield now that they can't be undercut by EU workers. I guess this mainly applied to unions in the services sector otherwise we just import goods.

Will Unions members support any strike etc recommendations ?
I doubt it, if the Unions called for support and the members refused to support their recommendations then that would make the Unions weaker, at the end of the day the old saying is true, A Union is only as strong as it's members.
I remember a Ford boss fuming one day after we had returned to work after taking industrial action, called us Sheep, the lot of you are Sheep for walking out whenever the Union told us too. made me smile as this is exactly how we should want Management to think whenever they face union officials in talks.
Management would laugh at any Union official if they know the men on the shop floor will ignore any recommendations for industrial action. those days are gone and the senior union officials know it.
The Unions warned the country on the impact of leaving the EU, Blair made a excellent video a few years back spelling out the negative impact of cheap imports on wages and conditions.
Fire and Rehire has always been disgusting but senior union officials can only fight each case individually with the support of it's members.

[FiSh77]

A fucking disgrace, and not one comment from a union, thats the really disgruntling part. The unions dont realise what a golden chalice they have been given, and the bakers union are more concerned about what to call something with a cervix at the last conference, than actually looking out for their memebrs. The unions could bring the country too its knees if they wanted, and if they knew that, then they could actually stop some of these practices. Again emplyers knew in the past that they has a 500m pool of labour to fall back on, not any more.

I read some gigaworkers won a case about employment rights this week, the case wasnt brought about by their union though, but by a firm of lawyers who simply did it for the money.

The unions hsould be pushing to scrap minimum wage, and better workers conditions especially for people in the gig economy. if you dont agree on the minnimun wage getting abolished, just watch how many emeployers come and say its a good thing. The unions should come up with a list of reasonable demands, present it to the governement, and then give them some time to implment, if not threaten to call a strike. Thats how the workers in this country should keep a check on the people in power.

You weren't at the Everton game yesterday by any chance were you?

[JohnnoWhite]

Where's your evidence that people hate unions? Under Abstarmer's rule, unions are the only refuge working people have left!