Topic: Javier Mascherano

[TheRedBull]

As for the comment about whether Xabi being dropped for the Chelsea game not being significant. Well, it wouldn't be significant if it were not for the fact that up until then, Rafa had played Alonso every big game as long as he was fit and available. That did not apply (for the first time ever) to the Chelsea semi. Some of us who watch the game know that to be significant. And don't need the help of Sky Match Facts to help us form an opinion.

So why Rafa play Alonso & Gerrard at home to Chelsea this season then? Is that because he is better than Mascherano?

[Sissoko78]

Kids, can I suggest you both spend a little time reading through the posts about Alonso back in April this year.  You'll get all the stats you need about assists, completed passes and all that bollocks, because some of the posters have gone to the trouble of doing that. Hopefully, that will assist you enormously in understanding that many on here had a concern with Xabi's form for not only that period in our season, but the season as a whole. You're welcome to PM me if you need any assistance in understanding any of the terminology or finer nuances if it seems overwhelming. 'll do my best to assist.  Here's the link.

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=172983.0

As for the comment about whether Xabi being dropped for the Chelsea game not being significant. Well, it wouldn't be significant if it were not for the fact that up until then, Rafa had played Alonso every big game as long as he was fit and available. That did not apply (for the first time ever) to the Chelsea semi. Some of us who watch the game know that to be significant. And don't need the help of Sky Match Facts to help us form an opinion.

You poor clown.  You really have no clue.  There really is no evidence in that thread to support your case.

His Premiership goal haul increased last year. 

His assists were down, largely because we were down on speed and penetration necessary to utilise his passes - his direct outlet over the top, Cisse, was moved on, and the three players who hit the channels from midfield, Garcia, Kewell and Gerrard, were either injured or down on form compared to the previous season.

However, talk of assists and goals distracts from analysing his primary function - running our team.  He did that as well as ever last year, unfortunately you were not perceptive enough to appreciate that.  I'm sorry for your inadequacies.

[fredmilne]

Kids, can I suggest you both spend a little time reading through the posts about Alonso back in April this year.  You'll get all the stats you need about assists, completed passes and all that bollocks, because some of the posters have gone to the trouble of doing that. Hopefully, that will assist you enormously in understanding that many on here had a concern with Xabi's form for not only that period in our season, but the season as a whole.

The issue I have is that Alonso isn't getting fair treatment.

His form was no more below-par than Gerrard's was, but we rarely hear about that.  Gerrard scored 7 league goals last year (only 3 more than Alonso), which is a very mediocre tally for an attacking midfielder of his ability.

Sissoko had a good first season then went backwards alarmingly last season.  Its only in the last couple of games against some weak opposition that he has started to recapture his form from his debut season.

Even Mascherano has had a few stinkers (Charlton at home, Chelsea away in CL semi-final when his sloppy passing could have easily put the tie beyond us) but you'd never guess from threads like this.

Its only Alonso's mistakes that are ever dwelt on.

As for the comment about whether Xabi being dropped for the Chelsea game not being significant. Well, it wouldn't be significant if it were not for the fact that up until then, Rafa had played Alonso every big game as long as he was fit and available. That did not apply (for the first time ever) to the Chelsea semi. Some of us who watch the game know that to be significant. And don't need the help of Sky Match Facts to help us form an opinion.

I tell you what is significant about that game - we barely created a chance from open play until Alonso came on in the 2nd half.

[Hank Scorpio]

Alonso had a poor/average season in 06/07.  I think there are a number of reasons why he had a below par season but he did nonetheless.

Before anybody starts...

Gerrard and Sissoko were aslo below par in 06/07.

[BazC]

I take it you have watched us for the last 4 years. I also take a huge leaf of faith and hope that you actually know something about the game. Because if you did you know that Xabi was sensational his first season here, scintillating his second season here and stagnated last season.  Evidenced by Rafa actually dropping him for some big games for the first time in his career with us. Chelsea in the semi might ring a bell.  That stagnation has continued into this season. The two goals against Derby does not cover over a Xabi playing at half the level we got accustomed to in his first two seasons here. I'm not saying Xabi is shit, I'm just saying the other 3, are ahead of him from what we've seen so far this season. Gerrard is ahead, and Momo won MOM against Sunderland and has been hugely impressive everytime I've seen him. In case you need me to map out the argument a little bit better so you can keep up; the argument is not Xabi is shit, the argument is that the other 3 are playing better than him at the moment. I'm not going to reel out statistics and other evidence for you here to try and convince you of my argument, because I generally don't waste time with people with a dim knowledge of football. Life is too short and too precious.

Like I've said in another thread; we won't see the Xabi of 3 years ago. Firstly because since then he's developed into more of a defensive midfielder and these responsibilities have meant his creativity has suffered (I'm sure I said as much in his second season here- when it was plain to see he was becoming a defensive midfielder, and to me, it was clear his creative side was being shackled a bit). Secondly, teams are wise to him and know if given time on the ball he'll be deadly; so obviously, they give him less time on the ball.

These are the main reasons- you can now see Xabi now picking out the fullbacks with square balls rather than pinging a cross field pass (for example) more often than not. This conservative Xabi is the one we have to get used to. It's unfair to say he's stagnated- because he really hasn't- he's just a different player. It may be hard to see that he still is an important player for us, but just look at games in the last year (when he's supposedly stagnated) and you'll see we really missed him. We may see more of his creative side come through when players like Babel, Torres and Pennant really hit another level in this team and start making those varied runs for him to pick out.

[Sissoko78]

As for the comment about whether Xabi being dropped for the Chelsea game not being significant. Well, it wouldn't be significant if it were not for the fact that up until then, Rafa had played Alonso every big game as long as he was fit and available. That did not apply (for the first time ever) to the Chelsea semi. Some of us who watch the game know that to be significant. And don't need the help of Sky Match Facts to help us form an opinion.

In previous seasons, Rafa basically had no central midfield alternatives that might have squeezed Xabi out for any game.

The Chelsea game is only significant in that it illustrates the major increase in competition in central midfield.  Whereas in recent seasons Sissoko, Hamann, Diao, Biscan, Guthrie and Welsh have represented Xabi's competition for a central place, he now has Sissoko, Mascherano, Leiva to contend with - and Gerrard has largely been liberated from his flank responsibilities. 

Much greater competition means the probability of Xabi losing out to the competition on occasion has increased greatly in relative terms.  However,  there is a big difference between losing out in some instances and losing out more often than not.  More often than not, Xabi will continue to be preferred to Mascherano.

[Hank Scorpio]

Like I've said in another thread; we won't see the Xabi of 3 years ago. Firstly because since then he's developed into more of a defensive midfielder and these responsibilities have meant his creativity has suffered (I'm sure I said as much in his second season here- when it was plain to see he was becoming a defensive midfielder, and to me, it was clear his creative side was being shackled a bit). Secondly, teams are wise to him and know if given time on the ball he'll be deadly; so obviously, they give him less time on the ball.

Good points, Baz.

Here are some of my own, which I posted in another thread.

In his 1st season, Alonso seemed to have endless time on the ball, picking it up in the pocket in front of the defence and behind the midfield.  As soon as Carragher or Hyypia had the ball they would look for Alonso, who intelligently had moved into space, and the opposition did not know how to play him.  He would then move the ball out of defence and basically be a link.

In the past 12-18 months things have changed slightly and I have a few reasons for this.

1. I think Alonso has suffered due to the fact that sides have now cottoned onto where he will deploy himself.  The opposition more often than not, especially the smaller clubs, will have a player who will drop off into that space, which Alonso normally occupies and give him less time and space.  Where he previously had a lot of time on the ball, he now is rushed to make a pass and his passes lack their former accuracy.

2. I think Alonso has also suffered from continuous football.  Last season, I think, was his worst for LFC.  I think he looked lethargic and was not finding the same amount of space he normally did.  Personally, I think he was tired coming off the back of a hard season and participation in the World Cup.  Alonso is no Sissoko or Gerrard physically and in the fast paced Premiership your form will suffer when you are not completely fit.

3. Daniel Agger.  When we had a CD partnership of Hyypia and Carragher it suited Alonso's game better.  Now we have a centre half, in Agger, who can bring the ball out of defence with quality and authority.  I think this has affected Alonso's game.  Next time LFC play (or watch some previous matches), watch the amount of times that Alonso drops off into that pocket between defence and midfield, expecting to receive the ball, only to be by passed by Agger bringing the ball out of defence and finding a team mate further up the pitch.  Agger is almost doing part of Alonso's job. 

This is my opinion, I know others will disagree.  Alonso is still one my favourite players but these are just observations I have made.  He is a class act and actually plays the game the way I like to see it, with intelligence and culture.  However, I think we need to start demanding more from him.  I think that he needs to start doing what he did in his 1st season, but now higher up the pitch.  I think it is not unfair to demand a few more goals from him, considering his ability.

[Sissoko78]

The issue I have is that Alonso isn't getting fair treatment.

Even Mascherano has had a few stinkers (Charlton at home, Chelsea away in CL semi-final when his sloppy passing could have easily put the tie beyond us) but you'd never guess from threads like this.

Its only Alonso's mistakes that are ever dwelt on.
I tell you what is significant about that game - we barely created a chance from open play until Alonso came on in the 2nd half.

Exactly mate.  It's as though having the best distribution in the squad means you aren't entitled to make a mistake.

It's also worth reflecting on Mascherano's distribution in the home leg at Anfield as well - he gifted Drogba with the chance to score an away goal.  That doesn't make him an outright liability bit too many clowns neglect to mention that  inaccurate passing under pressure can be considered akin to poor defence, in that it can gift scoring opportunities to our opponent.

[Sweet Silver Song]

So why Rafa play Alonso & Gerrard at home to Chelsea this season then? Is that because he is better than Mascherano?

If you bothered reading this thread from the beginning, you might have worked out that the question you pose, is the same one I'm struggling with. Masch and Gerrard, in my opinion, are the two in-form, best players. They should have played against Chelsea. They didn't, and we didn't pick up the 3 points. And before you start going on about Bob Styles, I reckon we would have won with that pairing despite Rob Styles.

[Sissoko78]

You can now see Xabi now picking out the fullbacks with square balls rather than pinging a cross field pass (for example) more often than not.  .....  We may see more of his creative side come through when players like Babel, Torres and Pennant really hit another level in this team and start making those varied runs for him to pick out.

I think you will see plenty of progressive passing from Xabi - after all it was his lofted cross field pass that led to Sissoko's goal.

[Sweet Silver Song]

Exactly mate.  It's as though having the best distribution in the squad means you aren't entitled to make a mistake.

It's also worth reflecting on Mascherano's distribution in the home leg at Anfield as well - he gifted Drogba with the chance to score an away goal.  That doesn't make him an outright liability bit too many clowns neglect to mention that  inaccurate passing under pressure can be considered akin to poor defence, in that it can gift scoring opportunities to our opponent.

When you're taking about inaccurate passing, are you talking about the two times in the first half against Chelsea this season where Alonso gave the ball away, and nearly allowed Chelsea to score?

[PaislyShankley]

As Xabi said himself, if he plays with Mascherano he'll be more attacking, if he plays with Gerrard or Sissoko then he'll be more defensive.

[Hank Scorpio]

I think you will see plenty of progressive passing from Xabi - after all it was his lofted cross field pass that led to Sissoko's goal.

We need to see him in that kind of space and attacking position more often i.e. 35-40 yards from goal.  With his quality he can be lethal from there (passing or shooting).

[fredmilne]

It's also worth reflecting on Mascherano's distribution in the home leg at Anfield as well - he gifted Drogba with the chance to score an away goal. 

Yes - I remember that.

Mascherano is clearly a very good player and has a big part to play.  I just don't think his inclusion should be at Alonso's expense.

Ideally, I'd like to see all three of Gerrard, Alonso and Mascherano play.  That's going to be harder now if Gerrard isn't being considered for RM.

[BazC]

Agree with most of that. But don't know what to make of the third point. I don't think Agger coming out of defence hurts Xabi's game... in fact I'd say it probably helps him in a round about way. If teams know we've got 2 players in that area who are very comfortable on the ball and are capable of playing a good pass, then they'll have to keep in mind both of them- when one is covered by the opposition, the other comes out with the ball. And it's what we've been seeing- because teams will know more about Alonso, he's the one who's covered most of the time- so Agger will come out with the ball and look for a pass or a shot(!)

When Xabi's not in the team, I think it's very important that Agger is- otherwise we really start playing the long ball game- simply because there's no one to pass to, and Carra and Hyypia have to look long. I noticed in the Toulouse game (away) that Mascherano wasnt coming deep to collect the ball from our CBs, and the fullbacks had already gone (Gerrard was naturally looking for the ball to be played to him in an attacking position) Carra and Hyypia would just knock it long- as they had no other options. I have to say, I think most of the time, those passes got to our players- but in the Prem, when defenders will close down the player a lot faster than Toulouse did, playing a long pass from defence to the strikers isn't exactly the best way to play...

[Sweet Silver Song]

I tell you what is significant about that game - we barely created a chance from open play until Alonso came on in the 2nd half.

Was that the bit where Chelsea were looking to try and pinch a goal after we scored and started coming out more and leaving spaces behind, which they didn't do in the first half? 

[PaislyShankley]

Was that the bit where Chelsea were looking to try and pinch a goal after we scored and started coming out more and leaving spaces behind, which they didn't do in the first half? 

But that's the counter to your idea that we'd have won if Mascherano/Gerrard started. Who's to say Chelsea wouldn't have been more and more attacking and scored two goals?

Coulda shoulda woulda didn't.

[Sweet Silver Song]

The issue I have is that Alonso isn't getting fair treatment.

His form was no more below-par than Gerrard's was, but we rarely hear about that.  Gerrard scored 7 league goals last year (only 3 more than Alonso), which is a very mediocre tally for an attacking midfielder of his ability.

Sissoko had a good first season then went backwards alarmingly last season.  Its only in the last couple of games against some weak opposition that he has started to recapture his form from his debut season.

Even Mascherano has had a few stinkers (Charlton at home, Chelsea away in CL semi-final when his sloppy passing could have easily put the tie beyond us) but you'd never guess from threads like this.

I'm talking about this season, not last. You are correct, Gerrard, by his standards was especially poor last season, along with Xabi. I put that down to the world cup hangover. This season Gerrard has come back to his best, Masch has taken things up a notch as well. Even Sissoko, who I would have said was the worst of the 4 prior to the season starting has been like a man possessed. He's passing (he's weakest attribute) has improved immensely. The only player who hasn't shown the same level of improvement from last season season has been Xabi. I'm not saying his shit, because Xabi at his best is still the player I would pay to come and watch. Anyone who disputes this should look through my back catalogue of posts about him. But on current form, the other 3 are ahead of him.

[Sweet Silver Song]

But that's the counter to your idea that we'd have won if Mascherano/Gerrard started. Who's to say Chelsea wouldn't have been more and more attacking and scored two goals?

Coulda should woulda didn't.

Try and keep up. You're talking about two different games here. The above reference was to the Chelsea semi from last season. And another reference is to the Chelsea league game this season. That's the game I think Mash and Gerrard should have played together.

[TheRedBull]

If you bothered reading this thread from the beginning, you might have worked out that the question you pose, is the same one I'm struggling with. Masch and Gerrard, in my opinion, are the two in-form, best players. They should have played against Chelsea. They didn't, and we didn't pick up the 3 points. And before you start going on about Bob Styles, I reckon we would have won with that pairing despite Rob Styles.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing... You are no better than Kaizer when it comes to making patronising comment.

[PaislyShankley]

Try and keep up. You're talking about two different games here. The above reference was to the Chelsea semi from last season. And another reference is to the Chelsea league game this season. That's the game I think Mash and Gerrard should have played together.

I'll try to do better in future.

[Sweet Silver Song]

Hindsight is a wonderful thing... You are no better than Kaizer when it comes to making patronising comment.

Not about hindsight mate. The first thing I said to my mate when I saw the teamsheet for Chelsea was why isn't Masch playing?

[fredmilne]

I'm talking about this season, not last. You are correct, Gerrard, by his standards was especially poor last season, along with Xabi. I put that down to the world cup hangover. This season Gerrard has come back to his best, Masch has taken things up a notch as well. Even Sissoko, who I would have said was the worst of the 4 prior to the season starting has been like a man possessed. He's passing (he's weakest attribute) has improved immensely. The only player who hasn't shown the same level of improvement from last season season has been Xabi. I'm not saying his shit, because Xabi at his best is still the player I would pay to come and watch. Anyone who disputes this should look through my back catalogue of posts about him. But on current form, the other 3 are ahead of him.

A bit of perspective needed here.

Mascherano has played well in the 3 games he's figured in but they have been against the might of Toulouse and Derby.  Similarly, Sissoko's improved form has come against Sunderland away and Toulouse at home.

Alonso has played 3 games as the holding midfielder (Villa away, Chelsea home, Sunderland away) and we have bossed all 3 games conceding 0 goals from open play.  He has played 1 game as the attacking midfielder and scored 2 goals.

[Neil D]

Perhaps Rafa didn't think Mascherano was as fresh or fit when we played Chelsea as Xabi. Rafa seems to have eased Masch in this year during friendlies and in Europe after the Copa America, and we all know Rafa makes many judgement calls based on who is fresh and rested. Xabi has had a full summer off, so for a high tempo game against arguably the best team in the country Rafa may well have opted for the Spaniard on this basis.

Good points fredmilne.

[Commie Bobbie]

Don't care how much it costs to secure the Masch's services - just pay it.

£18million will already be good money spent - considering what he offers.

[a partridge in seat_5c]

and yet another thread degenerates into 'my player is better than your player, ner ner nee ner ner'...

[PaislyShankley]

and yet another thread degenerates into 'my player is better than your player, ner ner nee ner ner'...

Interspersed with a few well placed 'I'm a properer fan than you' allusions.

[Sweet Silver Song]

A bit of perspective needed here.

Mascherano has played well in the 3 games he's figured in but they have been against the might of Toulouse and Derby.  Similarly, Sissoko's improved form has come against Sunderland away and Toulouse at home.

Alonso has played 3 games as the holding midfielder (Villa away, Chelsea home, Sunderland away) and we have bossed all 3 games conceding 0 goals from open play.  He has played 1 game as the attacking midfielder and scored 2 goals.

Agreed Alonso's played in the harder games. But no way is he at the level he set for himself in his first two seasons. Sissoko and Mash have played against lesser opposition, but on two separate occasions; Momo against Sunderland and Masch against Derby, there were people singling them out for man of the match appraisals. Alonso hasn't had the same level of praise, even though he played alongside each of them in both games.

[a partridge in seat_5c]

Interspersed with a few well placed 'I'm a properer fan than you' allusions.

could it be that

it's just an allusion

[PaislyShankley]

could it be that

it's just an allusion

Oh thank you for reminding me of the 80s. *shudder*

[fredmilne]

Sissoko and Mash have played against lesser opposition, but on two separate occasions; Momo against Sunderland and Masch against Derby, there were people singling them out for man of the match appraisals. Alonso hasn't had the same level of praise, even though he played alongside each of them in both games.

That's your argument?  That some people singled Momo/Masch out for man of the match appraisals?

Christ on a bike.

[XabiRanger]

The Mash is one of a few in our squad that is world class.

He has been a very good purchase all be it on Loan for the time been.

He works well with Stevie or Xabi in midfield

...and he's WORLD CLASS

[PaislyShankley]

I've seen Pennant, Mascherano and Alonso all given MOM in different newspapers.

[¡Basta Ya!]

I've seen Pennant, Mascherano and Alonso all given MOM in different newspapers.

And Torres.

Shows how well we are playing. So many players on form.

[Brotus]

If you bothered reading this thread from the beginning, you might have worked out that the question you pose, is the same one I'm struggling with. Masch and Gerrard, in my opinion, are the two in-form, best players. They should have played against Chelsea. They didn't, and we didn't pick up the 3 points. And before you start going on about Bob Styles, I reckon we would have won with that pairing despite Rob Styles.

Really liked this tread when it started as Mascherano is quickly turning in one of my favourite players, The guys is pure class. But it has turned into a tread full of shit. Sweet Silver you just talking waffle. to be honest I really like Mascherano but how do you make out he and Gerrard where the in form players prior to the Chelsea game. He played one game v Toulouse and they were shit. He played no part in our pre-season. Also no matter what way you look at it Rob Styles cost us 3 points against Chelsea.

[lionel_messias]

Lets put it another way. All four of Momo, Mascherano, Alonso, Gerrard would get a game for:

Barcelona
Real Madrid
AC Milan
Arsenal

But two of them will be on the bench, or in the stands, for Liverpool at any given time!

I think Mascherano is a brilliant player, a top class international and I don't know how he wouldn't get in the best "11". But.......Alonso is a little bit more expansive with his passing and that is crucial when you have fantastic runners like Torres, Babel, Pennant etc.

If we're being positive in our football, and we bloody are, then I think Alonso starts EVERY game at Anfield, where we are looking to demolish, even if its Barca, Man United, Boston United, whoever.

And away from home Masch should get more of a shout, but its almost too hard to pick, I'm giving myself twisted blood just thinking about it.

[Spanish Fan]

Gerrard and Sissoko were aslo below par in 06/07.

Far more than Alonso.

[Spanish Fan]

Like I've said in another thread; we won't see the Xabi of 3 years ago. Firstly because since then he's developed into more of a defensive midfielder and these responsibilities have meant his creativity has suffered (I'm sure I said as much in his second season here- when it was plain to see he was becoming a defensive midfielder, and to me, it was clear his creative side was being shackled a bit). Secondly, teams are wise to him and know if given time on the ball he'll be deadly; so obviously, they give him less time on the ball.

These are the main reasons- you can now see Xabi now picking out the fullbacks with square balls rather than pinging a cross field pass (for example) more often than not. This conservative Xabi is the one we have to get used to. It's unfair to say he's stagnated- because he really hasn't- he's just a different player. It may be hard to see that he still is an important player for us, but just look at games in the last year (when he's supposedly stagnated) and you'll see we really missed him. We may see more of his creative side come through when players like Babel, Torres and Pennant really hit another level in this team and start making those varied runs for him to pick out.

There is a third reason. His best games were almost always playing next to Hamman. Playing with Sissoko and Gerrard meant that he was sitting deeper. If  Alonso played next to Mascherano his attacking play would imrpove.

[fowlermagic]

Class act, just like Alonso who showed his worth druing the weekend. Think Rafa is unshackling the team as hopefully we see lineups like that a lot more often this season. If push comes to shove he can always start Alonos & mascherano with SG on the right & Pennant on the left. Not a bad midfield.

[Silvanus]

If you bothered reading this thread from the beginning, you might have worked out that the question you pose, is the same one I'm struggling with. Masch and Gerrard, in my opinion, are the two in-form, best players. They should have played against Chelsea. They didn't, and we didn't pick up the 3 points. And before you start going on about Bob Styles, I reckon we would have won with that pairing despite Rob Styles.

There was nothing wrong with the team, it was purely unlucky that it was 1-1, the team was more than adequate.