Author Topic: Straightening the Kop (Read 60630 times)

Peter McGurk · « **Reply #40 on:** March 9, 2016, 07:27:38 pm »

Quote from: The Lord Admiral on March 9, 2016, 01:54:24 pm

I think i've read something you wrote on this before Peter, so had heard the above before, all fair points. I'd be interested in what you think re the below though

1) Would the potential re-routing of the WBR do anything in terms of helping the 'transport infrastructure' issues that the stadium has over around 65K (which would be a hurdle to safe standing)
2) could there be further commercial potential, either for the area/council or the club if it were rerouted? I'm thinking hotels, restaurants, shopping or even property.
3) Could a reformed Kop have the same and therefore could it be made to 'pay' for itself in some way?

4) Dortmund have made their 'Yellow Wall' a real selling point the last few years. If, and it's a big if at this point, safe standing is introduced, I could see a commercial argument for Liverpool having 'the biggest Kop in Europe' or the World. Don't get me wrong, it's already iconic, but is there potential to make it more iconic in some way? I suspect there's some serious kudos could be earned by the owners with a bit of creativity and the flexibility of the council.

I do really like that Yara park idea, having the stadium sit in woodland, maybe with public sports facilities etc dotted around like you see in the US. Whether it's feasible I don't know.

I think we are years off them touching the Kop to be honest, if at all, there'd be a lot more financial sense it trying to do the Kemlyn. Incidentally I saw a poster on Skyscraper city mention that the club were working with housing association that owned the houses on the skerries to potentially allow expanding there to be an option. I've never read that anywhere else, have my doubts if it's true.

I really don't see any value in re-routeing WBR. And, if anything it would make traffic flow worse.

Many years ago, I did a model with a rectangular space (demolishing the church with WBR running through it on the same alignment as now as an Anfield Plaza with matchday venues (pubs, bars, fast food...) owned by the club and run by individual lessees. No-one picked it up.

I didn't look at the Yarra thing but I could see Anfield and Goodison working together around a sports park in the park in a parkland setting (see Football Quarter). I don't think the club was interested in helping the competition out.

The only thing that makes any kind of straight financial sense is minimal outlay for maximum effect i.e.., safe standing but even that is highly marginal. Frankly I think the Yellow Wall beats the Kop hands down (and they sing YNWA better more regularly) and it can be all-seater or all-standing. It takes about three days to convert.

For me the whole kop thing is about kudos and image. Hard to put a cost/benefit analysis to, unless it's about brand awareness and a statement of intent (by the club - not FSG). FSG are keeping the stadium at arm's length in effect.

I really think the ground's going to be big enough (but could take the extra for standing, say 6 games a season). Nonetheless, if I were the club, I'd be talking to the people in Skerries Road. One day, you never know...

andy07 · « **Reply #41 on:** March 9, 2016, 08:36:01 pm »

In ten years time people will be asking why we didn't have the foresight to future proof the extension. Diverting the road has other benefits including improved access to buses and taxis and the possibility of keeping the road open for much longer periods of time on match day so serving the needs of the those not attending the match. The road is also a liability on non match days due to the number of visitors milling around. Not impressive having a busy road up the arse of The Kop if The City wants to capitalize on the global appeal of The Club.

Peter McGurk · « **Reply #42 on:** March 9, 2016, 09:33:47 pm »

Quote from: andy07 on March 9, 2016, 08:36:01 pm

In ten years time people will be asking why we didn't have the foresight to future proof the extension. Diverting the road has other benefits including improved access to buses and taxis and the possibility of keeping the road open for much longer periods of time on match day so serving the needs of the those not attending the match. The road is also a liability on non match days due to the number of visitors milling around. Not impressive having a busy road up the arse of The Kop if The City wants to capitalize on the global appeal of The Club.

If it's not worth it for the club, the club is not going to persuade all other interested parties to do anything about it.

The Lord Admiral · « **Reply #43 on:** March 10, 2016, 09:44:30 am »

Quote from: Peter McGurk on March 9, 2016, 09:33:47 pm

If it's not worth it for the club, the club is not going to persuade all other interested parties to do anything about it.

Nice pic Peter. Were you rerouting the WBR on this or leaving it the same? The main stand side isn't too far off where we are heading.

And I think you have nailed where I have a bit of a problem. There a difference between what is good for the club long terms and what is good for FSG, who are probably looking to cash in over the next 5-10 years. I might be doing them a disservice.

Totally agree though, it's up to the club to be creative and visionary to make it worth it, and then convince others of the same.

Peter McGurk · « **Reply #44 on:** March 10, 2016, 12:49:04 pm »

Quote from: The Lord Admiral on March 10, 2016, 09:44:30 am

Nice pic Peter. Were you rerouting the WBR on this or leaving it the same? The main stand side isn't too far off where we are heading.

And I think you have nailed where I have a bit of a problem. There a difference between what is good for the club long terms and what is good for FSG, who are probably looking to cash in over the next 5-10 years. I might be doing them a disservice.

Totally agree though, it's up to the club to be creative and visionary to make it worth it, and then convince others of the same.

Same alignment as now. Closed or closed for a time on match days. As I said, I don't see a bigger footprint kop happening but if it did, there's no need to take on the grief of moving the road.

People have FSG wrong. As a group, there's is benefit to owning the club today. They're not looking for jam tomorrow so much.,And I can only see them getting bigger with more sports in the group - not selling off a major growth asset. Remember Werner's expertise is in marketing sport to TV.

It's not that the kop can't be awesome but what makes extending it a priority....? It won't be FSG that decides. It'll be the club.

Alan_X · « **Reply #45 on:** March 11, 2016, 01:52:52 pm »

Extending the Kop is a red herring. As last night showed it's plenty big enough - it's the people on it that are important. This photo of the United players from last night is brilliant. You can see some of them looking over their shoulders at the seething mass of red.

And what's still great about it even in it's current form, is the way it disappears off into the darkness at the back. Not as menacing as it used to be, but it's still rough and ready and menacing. Barney Ronay described it as " the corrugated noise funnel that is the Kop end" in his Guardian piece today.

http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2016/mar/10/roberto-firmino-liverpool-manchester-united

Maybe extend the corners but it's really not important and straightening Walton Breck Road to grab a load of land from the Anfield area to make a bigger Kop or a larger fans' plaza is the sort of arrogant 'fuck you' attitude that has pissed off our neighbours in the past.

Peter McGurk · « **Reply #46 on:** March 11, 2016, 07:41:32 pm »

Quote from: Alan_X on March 11, 2016, 01:52:52 pm

Extending the Kop is a red herring. As last night showed it's plenty big enough - it's the people on it that are important. This photo of the United players from last night is brilliant. You can see some of them looking over their shoulders at the seething mass of red.

And what's still great about it even in it's current form, is the way it disappears off into the darkness at the back. Not as menacing as it used to be, but it's still rough and ready and menacing. Barney Ronay described it as " the corrugated noise funnel that is the Kop end" in his Guardian piece today.

http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2016/mar/10/roberto-firmino-liverpool-manchester-united

Maybe extend the corners but it's really not important and straightening Walton Breck Road to grab a load of land from the Anfield area and to make a bigger Kop or a larger fans' plaza is the sort of arrogant 'fuck you' attitude that has pissed off our neighbours in the past.

Ultimately, where is the dissatisfaction in the community? I don't hear it. Maybe just maybe, everyone was satisfied? And yes, there is no need to do anything with WBR to extend the kop and yes sideways would work too but it's not a red herring.

Back in the day, the red herring was the new stadium and that was successfully defeated (even entrenched as it was). The new stadium was the 'big statement' - a club going places. Actually going to hell in a hand cart. With a wee profit last year and a healthy one this and the club turning around financially and actually paying its way, it is maybe time to think about proper and sensible big statements that might actually be sustainable.

With the huge growth in TV, even a super league, and once proven, the extra from hospitality, the squeeze on match day income is going to slacken. There may be more value in a bigger brand than a GA ticket price.

Financially, that's where a mega kop could come into its own. And if it means a few more teams bricking it under the glare of a ravenous kop, then terrific.

paul j · « **Reply #47 on:** March 12, 2016, 01:01:37 pm »

I saw on another forum where somebody had just done the stadium tour and it had been brought up about the kop getting extended and wbr being rerouted,he was told that the club when talking to council about extending anfield brought the possibility of reroute of Wbr the council wouldn't even listen to the possibility of it so basically said no chance end of discussion.

poopscoop · « **Reply #48 on:** March 12, 2016, 02:54:48 pm »

Quote from: paul j on March 12, 2016, 01:01:37 pm

I saw on another forum where somebody had just done the stadium tour and it had been brought up about the kop getting extended and wbr being rerouted,he was told that the club when talking to council about extending anfield brought the possibility of reroute of Wbr the council wouldn't even listen to the possibility of it so basically said no chance end of discussion.

Someone said earlier in this thread that it wasn't necessarily the numbers on the Kop that created the atmosphere but the involvement of those that are there. I agree with that statement and hate seeing camera carrying passengers soaking up the atmosphere. It is a unique place, a place that is authentic in an increasingly genericised premier league. But that authenticity is created by real people with a genuine emotional tie to the team.
That statement also got me thinking, if it is the fanbase that is the heart of what makes the Kop such an intimidating end - then the actual stand is secondary.
Taking into consideration council objections to rerouting WBR, the lack of scope to expand the Centenary. and the completion of the new Main, the only viable expansion is at the road end.
If there were to be a 'super Kop' that's the only viable place it can be. There would be uproar about moving but if the fixation of 'big is best' perpetuates, then people will have hard choices to make.
If the club turned round tomorrow and proposed new plans for the Anny road, as the new Kop, I don't think I'd be that upset. If a stand could be built that exceeded the capacity of the existing Kop and enabled a new generation of youth to get access to the matches - like we used to enjoy, then I'd be happy. Always enjoyed the Anny Road end in the 70s and 80s, it could be a lively place to be.
I'm not supporting this as a valid option, merely playing devils advocate on the future capacity / development of the stadium discussion.

Peter McGurk · « **Reply #49 on:** March 12, 2016, 06:16:57 pm »

Quote from: paul j on March 12, 2016, 01:01:37 pm

I saw on another forum where somebody had just done the stadium tour and it had been brought up about the kop getting extended and wbr being rerouted,he was told that the club when talking to council about extending anfield brought the possibility of reroute of Wbr the council wouldn't even listen to the possibility of it so basically said no chance end of discussion.

Always amazes me how those who run the stadium tour are assumed to know all there is to know about council and national planning policy. We've lived with the stadium tour view of redevelopment (council will never allow it)... for a decade and more.

We have had all kinds of red herrings; 'over my dead body', 'Anfield Road can't be closed', 'there isn't enough room', 'we'd lose too much during construction', 'doesn't make us elite'. I was once told by someone who knew somebody that somebody said that Ged Poynton said it was 'impossible' to redevelop Anfield... it goes on.

The red herring with the Kop is the re-routing of WBR. It is not necessary. The Kop can be extended without re-routing the road.

Whether it is worth it or not is another matter. In terms of matchday revenue and without question, no. In terms of chutzpah and brand and growth, it is definitely arguable.

.

Espresso Bar · « **Reply #50 on:** March 12, 2016, 06:36:15 pm »

Expanding the Kop is not impossible - just need the will to do it.

It could look similar to this -

Peter McGurk · « **Reply #51 on:** March 13, 2016, 10:07:19 pm »

Espresso Bar · « **Reply #52 on:** March 13, 2016, 10:17:49 pm »

CraigDS · « **Reply #53 on:** March 13, 2016, 10:53:35 pm »

Too cool for scarves on the Kop though innit.

The Lord Admiral · « **Reply #54 on:** March 14, 2016, 11:08:06 am »

Quote from: Peter McGurk on March 13, 2016, 10:07:19 pm

Quote from: Espresso Bar on March 12, 2016, 06:36:15 pm

Expanding the Kop is not impossible - just need the will to do it.

It could look similar to this -

That photo Peter posted really is magnificent!

Although I think it's seated capacity is pretty much the same as our Kop, it just goes up to 25,000 for standing. Must be the rake of it that makes it look bigger?

CraigDS · « **Reply #55 on:** March 14, 2016, 11:23:35 am »

Yeah seated capacity it's roughly the same, maybe a few hundred more max.

I think it's a mix of the corners being filled in, the continuous colour giving the illusion of a larger area, and the fact the bottom half is more terrace than 'safe standing' so I imagine more people are stood in that section to make it look extremely full.

TheMightyReds · « **Reply #56 on:** March 14, 2016, 12:50:56 pm »

Like Peter above said, there is a way round re-routing the road. Simply filling in the corners should suffice really.

Of course the difference is that the incline on the Kop isn't as steep as the one in Dortmund, but we must also take into account that they have standing fans in there too. You could argue against taking the mid section of Kop (re-made) onwards much steeper, and then the height to match the new Main Stand, but not sure if that's possible with right to light issues on the other side.

Either way, the actual Kop stand doesn't look great, and some re-vamping is necessary here. Road is closed on match days too, so it serves no purpose. Nothing is impossible with the will to achieve it.

CHOPPER · « **Reply #57 on:** March 14, 2016, 06:41:03 pm »

Quote from: Alan_X on March 11, 2016, 01:52:52 pm

Extending the Kop is a red herring. As last night showed it's plenty big enough - it's the people on it that are important. This photo of the United players from last night is brilliant. You can see some of them looking over their shoulders at the seething mass of red.

And what's still great about it even in it's current form, is the way it disappears off into the darkness at the back. Not as menacing as it used to be, but it's still rough and ready and menacing. Barney Ronay described it as " the corrugated noise funnel that is the Kop end" in his Guardian piece today.

http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2016/mar/10/roberto-firmino-liverpool-manchester-united

Maybe extend the corners but it's really not important and straightening Walton Breck Road to grab a load of land from the Anfield area to make a bigger Kop or a larger fans' plaza is the sort of arrogant 'fuck you' attitude that has pissed off our neighbours in the past.

UNITY IS STRAIGHT

Mutton Geoff · « **Reply #58 on:** March 14, 2016, 06:45:24 pm »

Quote from: Titi Camara on November 11, 2015, 11:43:31 am

Aye, too many nancy boys in there for my liking!

Tough Audience i got it

OOS · « **Reply #59 on:** March 15, 2016, 07:50:10 pm »

Quote from: Peter McGurk on March 9, 2016, 07:27:38 pm

I really think the ground's going to be big enough (but could take the extra for standing, say 6 games a season). Nonetheless, if I were the club, I'd be talking to the people in Skerries Road. One day, you never know...

The club own some of the houses on Skerries but the housing association manages them. Recently done up in the last ten years, and great family homes apart from the steep stairs.

LFC bought/owned the houses on the corner of Skerries and WBR before they knocked them down for supposedly new office space. Never materialised. Shame, its now an empty spot for shitty burger vans.

Peter McGurk · « **Reply #60 on:** March 15, 2016, 10:32:31 pm »

Quote from: OOS on March 15, 2016, 07:50:10 pm

The club own some of the houses on Skerries but the housing association manages them. Recently done up in the last ten years, and great family homes apart from the steep stairs.

LFC bought/owned the houses on the corner of Skerries and WBR before they knocked them down for supposedly new office space. Never materialised. Shame, its now an empty spot for shitty burger vans.

We should forget that then

CraigDS · « **Reply #61 on:** March 15, 2016, 10:35:32 pm »

Quote from: OOS on March 15, 2016, 07:50:10 pm

The club own some of the houses on Skerries but the housing association manages them. Recently done up in the last ten years, and great family homes apart from the steep stairs.

LFC bought/owned the houses on the corner of Skerries and WBR before they knocked them down for supposedly new office space. Never materialised. Shame, its now an empty spot for shitty burger vans.

Do they still own them? I thought they sold them for £1 each years ago to allow them to be viably refurbished.

CraigDS · « **Reply #62 on:** March 15, 2016, 10:41:17 pm »

Just double checked, the club doesn't own anything on Skerries.

OOS · « **Reply #63 on:** March 16, 2016, 11:06:34 pm »

Quote from: CraigDS on March 15, 2016, 10:41:17 pm

Just double checked, the club doesn't own anything on Skerries.

Quote

Skerries Road pilot schemes

Ten properties in Skerries Road were refurbished by Maritime Housing Association on behalf of Liverpool Football Club before the Affordable Housing Development Company was involved. The internal spaces were reorganised, adding conservatories and using the rear alley to extend the length of private gardens.

The Affordable Housing Development Company also ran a pilot scheme on Skerries Road with ten properties. This entailed more substantial interventions with new windows, doors and front walls (although the houses were in a reasonable condition at the beginning). These properties were available for residents moving from properties in the local area scheduled for demolition.

http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20110118095356/http:/www.cabe.org.uk/case-studies/tancred-road/description

Quote

But the club is showing signs of a new social awareness, talking of creating public open space and boosting local employment. The club is improving homes it owns on Skerries Road in partnership with Maritime Housing Association.
http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/reds-home-fixture-3561222

Quote

Liverpool Football Club wants to be a good neighbour. Therefore, it has been working with its local community and Liverpool City Council to deliver the Anfield Breckfield Regeneration Strategy since 2000.

LFC completed the restoration of homes in Skerries Road as a template for the renewal of housing in the area. This was followed up by LCC-funded improvements to homes on the opposite side of the street and the completion of the remaining homes for sale by AHDC.

LFC has worked with New Heartlands, the Housing Market Renewal Pathfinder, to ensure that the community's housing strategy is fulfilled and participated in discussions on the Keepmoat Masterplan for the new build housing in the area.

LFC's support for the Sweeper Zone vehicle working throughout the Anfield and Breckfield neighbourhoods contributes to the cleanliness of the streets.
http://www.liverpoolfc.com/community/regeneration/housing

A few different sources which are publicly available, and also know people who live on the road. They back onto the car park.

CraigDS · « **Reply #64 on:** March 16, 2016, 11:13:31 pm »

Quote from: OOS on March 16, 2016, 11:06:34 pm

A few different sources which are publicly available, and also know people who live on the road. They back onto the car park.

Those links are from 15 years ago mate, and the club sold them before that as they never carried out the work.

I looked through a list of club property assets which was compiled in Sept 2015 (by the club as part of a charge to secure the latest finance facility), and there are no properties on Skerries, owned or leased by the club. So unless they've bought some since then they don't own any.

Peter McGurk · « **Reply #65 on:** March 18, 2016, 08:47:39 pm »

Quote from: TheMightyReds on March 14, 2016, 12:50:56 pm

Like Peter above said, there is a way round re-routing the road. Simply filling in the corners should suffice really.

Of course the difference is that the incline on the Kop isn't as steep as the one in Dortmund, but we must also take into account that they have standing fans in there too. You could argue against taking the mid section of Kop (re-made) onwards much steeper, and then the height to match the new Main Stand, but not sure if that's possible with right to light issues on the other side.

Either way, the actual Kop stand doesn't look great, and some re-vamping is necessary here. Road is closed on match days too, so it serves no purpose. Nothing is impossible with the will to achieve it.

The depth of the two stands is quite similar but there is indeed more to it than that.

The Sudtribune is significantly steeper, which makes it more intimidating and the roof is higher and is set further back from the pitch (both of which give better views). Standing is a factor because the closer people are, the bigger it looks to the eye.

Perhaps the biggest factors are that the overall height, that the kop is not straight at the back and it is nowhere near as wide (as even the old Kop)

Unless the kop is rebuilt, which is not going to happen, it can get a little higher and the corners can be filled in. Both of which will be hugely expensive for the extra numbers involved. Making a 'massive' kop is going to be about brand and image. It won't make money (in the conventional sense)

The Lord Admiral · « **Reply #66 on:** March 19, 2016, 12:49:10 pm »

I was hoping someone might do that Peter. Very interesting, thanks.

Brand and image is right. But also potentially history, accessibility, link to the local community. I think it'd be such a huge huge win for FSG or another owner, it really should be on the agenda. I think it might happen, and I think a little encouragement from the fan base could be a very good thing.

And I think that's before you look at sponsorship or a quick profit.

Edit: Someone send that pic to JWH!

CraigDS · « **Reply #67 on:** March 19, 2016, 01:04:35 pm »

It's not going to happen short term, even medium term, as think hands are full with expanding the Main then the Anny of there is a next stage (which I expect there to be).

I'd guess both of those will need to be done and being paid off before anything else is even thought about in any seriousness. I'd also think they'd rather see where the safe standing debate goes over those years before they consider any massively expensive Kop work.

Quote from: The Lord Admiral on March 19, 2016, 12:49:10 pm

Edit: Someone send that pic to JWH!

Which, the plan comparison of ours and the Yellow Wall? It's pointless sending that, as don't think we can legally build anything even near that steep, in fact I'm sure I've seen Peter say the Kop is towards the max steepness allowed already.

The Lord Admiral · « **Reply #68 on:** March 19, 2016, 01:54:10 pm »

Quote from: CraigDS on March 19, 2016, 01:04:35 pm

It's not going to happen short term, even medium term, as think hands are full with expanding the Main then the Anny of there is a next stage (which I expect there to be).

I'd guess both of those will need to be done and being paid off before anything else is even thought about in any seriousness. I'd also think they'd rather see where the safe standing debate goes over those years before they consider any massively expensive Kop work.

Which, the plan comparison of ours and the Yellow Wall? It's pointless sending that, as don't think we can legally build anything even near that steep, in fact I'm sure I've seen Peter say the Kop is towards the max steepness allowed already.

Nope I meant the whole post to be honest, but particularly the line "Making a 'massive' kop is going to be about brand and image."

There seems a lot of room in those corners on the Dortmund pic as well, more than I thought.

Think you are right re the steepness, that rings a bell.

Peter McGurk · « **Reply #69 on:** March 19, 2016, 02:06:09 pm »

Quote from: CraigDS on March 19, 2016, 01:04:35 pm

It's not going to happen short term, even medium term, as think hands are full with expanding the Main then the Anny of there is a next stage (which I expect there to be).

I'd guess both of those will need to be done and being paid off before anything else is even thought about in any seriousness. I'd also think they'd rather see where the safe standing debate goes over those years before they consider any massively expensive Kop work.

Which, the plan comparison of ours and the Yellow Wall? It's pointless sending that, as don't think we can legally build anything even near that steep, in fact I'm sure I've seen Peter say the Kop is towards the max steepness allowed already.

The kop is at the max angle for standing that the current regs allow. However, the current regs do not consider safe standing as seen at Dortmund and elsewhere and are for old-style terracing with barriers every 6 metres or so. As that distance determines the angle, safe standing with a barrier at the much closer distance would allow a much steeper angle (and much, much better views). That said, a steeper kop means a re-built kop. There are other ways to be as impressive.

As I've always said, anything is technically possible or supportable. Given the will to do it, there is always a way. The redevelopment debate has been about net financial return after costs and the best way to greatest nett return was with redevelopment, which makes so much more sense than a new stadium from that point of view.

Extending the kop is about something else besides. It's a sure-fire money loser on a nett matchday revenue basis but ultimately a mega-kop may have other financial benefits in the bigger picture of national and global presence.

Peter McGurk · « **Reply #70 on:** March 19, 2016, 02:40:33 pm »

Quote from: CraigDS on March 16, 2016, 11:13:31 pm

Those links are from 15 years ago mate, and the club sold them before that as they never carried out the work.

I looked through a list of club property assets which was compiled in Sept 2015 (by the club as part of a charge to secure the latest finance facility), and there are no properties on Skerries, owned or leased by the club. So unless they've bought some since then they don't own any.

It would be interesting to compare that list with this from a title deed circa 2011. If memory serves, the properties outlined in Green where to be transferred to an RSL but I don't recall whether leasehold or freehold. The red line is intriguing including as it does, the whole of that side of Skerries Road. What is also notable is the exclusion of the kop! (presumably held elsewhere)

CraigDS · « **Reply #71 on:** March 19, 2016, 02:46:45 pm »

Quote from: Peter McGurk on March 19, 2016, 02:40:33 pm

It would be interesting to compare that list with this from a title deed circa 2011. If memory serves, the properties outlined in Green where to be transferred to an RSL but I don't recall whether leasehold or freehold. The red line is intriguing including as it does, the whole of that side of Skerries Road. What is also notable is the exclusion of the kop! (presumably held elsewhere)

List is here mate - https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/00035668/charges/J06RTqv-AwVuv7nw4J9L_9CqtHY

Starts on page numbered 33. Gives title numbers too so should be able to compare.

The Lord Admiral · « **Reply #72 on:** March 19, 2016, 03:29:49 pm »

Quote from: Peter McGurk on March 19, 2016, 02:06:09 pm

The kop is at the max angle for standing that the current regs allow. However, the current regs do not consider safe standing as seen at Dortmund and elsewhere and are for old-style terracing with barriers every 6 metres or so. As that distance determines the angle, safe standing with a barrier at the much closer distance would allow a much steeper angle (and much, much better views). That said, a steeper kop means a re-built kop. There are other ways to be as impressive.

As I've always said, anything is technically possible or supportable. Given the will to do it, there is always a way. The redevelopment debate has been about net financial return after costs and the best way to greatest nett return was with redevelopment, which makes so much more sense than a new stadium from that point of view.

Extending the kop is about something else besides. It's a sure-fire money loser on a nett matchday revenue basis but ultimately a mega-kop may have other financial benefits in the bigger picture of national and global presence.

I could be thinking of other posters, but there seemed to be a bit of consensus that the financial bottom line was the beginning and the end of the discussion here. Would you say you've shifted a bit on this Peter in terms of your outlook (if not in the likelihood of something with the Kop happening!)?

I think the huge increase in TV money, the increasing fan movement towards greater and less expensive access (including the safe standing interest) have shifted the narrative a bit here. Early days though.

Peter McGurk · « **Reply #73 on:** March 19, 2016, 05:05:42 pm »

Quote from: CraigDS on March 19, 2016, 02:46:45 pm

List is here mate - https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/00035668/charges/J06RTqv-AwVuv7nw4J9L_9CqtHY

Starts on page numbered 33. Gives title numbers too so should be able to compare.

Unfortunately no plans delineating the title numbers are included, which would absolutely clear up whether any properties in Skerries Road are included in a bigger portion but it's clear enough that no separate titles are listed for properties in Skerries Road.

Peter McGurk · « **Reply #74 on:** March 19, 2016, 05:18:50 pm »

Quote from: The Lord Admiral on March 19, 2016, 03:29:49 pm

I could be thinking of other posters, but there seemed to be a bit of consensus that the financial bottom line was the beginning and the end of the discussion here. Would you say you've shifted a bit on this Peter in terms of your outlook (if not in the likelihood of something with the Kop happening!)?

I think the huge increase in TV money, the increasing fan movement towards greater and less expensive access (including the safe standing interest) have shifted the narrative a bit here. Early days though.

The financial bottom line was and is all but the emphasis on what works best may have shifted. As I've also said many times, there's better ways of making money than adding capacity to the stadium. It's a very risky do - loads of money in for not much out (comparatively) and a disaster if it flops. Whereas the club trades on its 'chutzpah' to sell sponsorship, shirts and the shirt deal and the like and to a growing extent the critical mass of the event.

Because, watching 6th place v 8th place in the Europa Cup ought to be small beer but if its the second leg in the biggest club venue in the country with bitter rivals with huge history at play, then it's a big deal for TV and for TV around the world. Actually Man U were out after the first leg but what a fuss the media made anyway. And we all enjoyed it.

So yes, the stadium is still about money at the gate and it's still about competing with rivals' money at the gate but the bigger picture is global 'pull', marketing, merchandising and most of all, TV.

Espresso Bar · « **Reply #75 on:** March 19, 2016, 10:03:54 pm »

Quote from: Espresso Bar on March 12, 2016, 06:36:15 pm

Expanding the Kop is not impossible - just need the will to do it.

It could look similar to this -

From another angle

Redknight1892 · « **Reply #76 on:** May 25, 2016, 02:34:29 pm »

Looking at the photos of the sudtribune does it increase in rake slightly roughly half way up? Would this work with our Kop for future expansion and a cantilevered design over the WBR? Hate the thought of our Kop left out with the likes of Spurs set to have a 17,000 single tier stand. Surely the club will find a way to address this.

decisivemoment · « **Reply #77 on:** May 25, 2016, 05:11:37 pm »

Quote from: The Lord Admiral on March 14, 2016, 11:08:06 am

That photo Peter posted really is magnificent!

Although I think it's seated capacity is pretty much the same as our Kop, it just goes up to 25,000 for standing. Must be the rake of it that makes it look bigger?

The Kop is wider, but shallower, and built at a lower angle compared to Borussia's south terrace. It adds up to about the same capacity; in seated configuration the south terrace is almost exactly the same capacity as the Kop, but you in addition have full corners at the Westfalenstadion which we do not.

Also because the Westfalenstadion is built at the same height all the way around, there aren't the problems with upper-level obstructed view seats that are emerging at Anfield. The new Main Stand really needs Kop and Anfield Road roofs that are five to seven metres higher than the current ones at least.

Ratboy3G · « **Reply #78 on:** May 26, 2016, 10:11:21 am »

Quote from: Redknight1892 on May 25, 2016, 02:34:29 pm

Looking at the photos of the sudtribune does it increase in rake slightly roughly half way up? Would this work with our Kop for future expansion and a cantilevered design over the WBR? Hate the thought of our Kop left out with the likes of Spurs set to have a 17,000 single tier stand. Surely the club will find a way to address this.

I see this is your first post (so...welcome and I'll go easy!) but why do you think this matters?

Redknight1892 · « **Reply #79 on:** May 26, 2016, 02:39:33 pm »

Quote from: Ratboy3G on May 26, 2016, 10:11:21 am

I see this is your first post (so...welcome and I'll go easy!) but why do you think this matters?

Well at 53 now I remember the old Kop and have happy memories of those days.. So much so I moved from Belfast to live with my family in Bootle during the 70s for a few years.. Those days are gone and and won't return but as a tradition this club is famed for its Kop and thought with the expansion plans surely the club won't leave its most famous stand dwarfed by the rest of the stands? Personally I'd love to see a 20,000 plus Kop stand and filled with people who want to sing/chant.. And thanks for the welcome mate