Author Topic: Financial Fair Play - developments in here  (Read 168599 times)

Offline AfricanBavarian

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #200 on: January 31, 2014, 02:33:15 pm »
FFP in my opinion is a sham! It was meant to maintain the status quo more than anything else. Owners of big clubs like Bayern, RM, and Barca wanted to prevent teams like Man C and PSG from popping up and UEFA wanted to control spending. UEFA wont do anything hurt their golden geese thats why those big clubs are so supportive of it. Sadly its too late to take down clubs like Chelsea, Man C and PSG, they have gotten to big already they wont be hurt by FFP.

Offline ManchesterBlue

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #201 on: January 31, 2014, 02:43:30 pm »
FFP in my opinion is a sham! It was meant to maintain the status quo more than anything else. Owners of big clubs like Bayern, RM, and Barca wanted to prevent teams like Man C and PSG from popping up and UEFA wanted to control spending. UEFA wont do anything hurt their golden geese thats why those big clubs are so supportive of it. Sadly its too late to take down clubs like Chelsea, Man C and PSG, they have gotten to big already they wont be hurt by FFP.
You're right in that. FFP was the price the G-14 (which included Liverpool, Arsenal & United) extracted for disbanding and self-interest was high on the agenda. I actually don't have any objection to the concept of financial regulation in football to ensure sustainability but it ahould allow a period of decent investment in clubs (as long as self-sustainability is achieved) and also stop owners loading their clubs with debt (whcih is usually what kills clubs). Even as a Manchester City fan I do not want an owner making unlimited investment ad nauseam with no attempt to balance the books.

Offline Cantona

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #202 on: January 31, 2014, 06:17:59 pm »
But Manc Blue, can you shed any light on why City can get record breaking sums from Abu Dhabi companies, but the truly global companies will only sponsor you a fraction of the very top end of market value.

If companies like Nike can get away with paying City a lot less than they pay other clubs, why do the Abu Dhabi companies pay so much over the odds? Surely they could sponsor City for a lot less, are they not looking for value in their sponsorship deals?
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Offline ManchesterBlue

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #203 on: January 31, 2014, 08:13:10 pm »
But Manc Blue, can you shed any light on why City can get record breaking sums from Abu Dhabi companies, but the truly global companies will only sponsor you a fraction of the very top end of market value.

If companies like Nike can get away with paying City a lot less than they pay other clubs, why do the Abu Dhabi companies pay so much over the odds? Surely they could sponsor City for a lot less, are they not looking for value in their sponsorship deals?
You're confusing two things. The Nike deal is based on shirt sales and we sell a lot less than United and Liverpool so we get less. But the other sponsorship deals are based on TV & media exposure and we get as much as anyone. So if you break the Etihad deal down as £25m for the shirts, £10m for the stadium and £5m for the Campus (training complex) it's certainly not excessive.

Offline Cantona

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #204 on: February 1, 2014, 12:32:20 am »
You're confusing two things. The Nike deal is based on shirt sales and we sell a lot less than United and Liverpool so we get less. But the other sponsorship deals are based on TV & media exposure and we get as much as anyone. So if you break the Etihad deal down as £25m for the shirts, £10m for the stadium and £5m for the Campus (training complex) it's certainly not excessive.

In fairness, now that deal does not look so excessive, however, at the time of signing City had done nothing to warrant such a huge sponsorship deal when other more high profile clubs struggled to get close to that level.

But yeah, the deal nowadays isn't so mental, I wouldn't bet against a renegotiated deal soon enough though at stupid prices to pass the next set of FFP results but maybe i'm just a cynic.
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Offline Rattleduser

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #205 on: February 1, 2014, 11:17:41 pm »
PSN: white-of-my-eyes

Offline ManchesterBlue

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #206 on: February 2, 2014, 12:23:19 am »

Funny how United lose at Stoke for the first time in 30 years and their faithful mouthpiece Ian Herbert comes up with a bullshit story like that.

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #207 on: February 2, 2014, 12:23:52 am »
Ridiculous. Any sane person can see that City and their owners are playing by the rules. It is as fair as it gets. As City say, "best owners in the world, eva". Just triple wages take the Russian Oligarchs out the game. Country versus rich Oligarchs. I'm betting on the country with oil as opposed to 'businessman' with gas. Gas v Oil, that is what its all about, this football stuff is dressing. The real show is Arab oil versus Russian gas. God willing Manchester City do it for the faithful.
The courts, the rich, the powerful or those in authority never lie. It has been dealt with 'by the courts' nothing to see here run along.

Offline Carly

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #208 on: February 2, 2014, 12:25:23 am »
Funny how United lose at Stoke for the first time in 30 years and their faithful mouthpiece Ian Herbert comes up with a bullshit story like that.

Whats really funny is the fact that Mourinho/Chelsea are the ones who seem to be complaining the most.

Offline ManchesterBlue

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #209 on: February 2, 2014, 12:28:36 am »
Whats really funny is the fact that Mourinho/Chelsea are the ones who seem to be complaining the most.
That's just a smokescreen. Herbert is the first port of call when Phil Townsend needs a splash on the back pages.

Offline Twelfth Man

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #210 on: February 2, 2014, 12:28:53 am »
Whats really funny is the fact that Mourinho/Chelsea are the ones who seem to be complaining the most.
I want someone to do a City on City so that next year City are complaining about FFP rules. That will be fun.
The courts, the rich, the powerful or those in authority never lie. It has been dealt with 'by the courts' nothing to see here run along.

Offline Twelfth Man

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #211 on: February 2, 2014, 12:32:08 am »
That didn't take long.
The courts, the rich, the powerful or those in authority never lie. It has been dealt with 'by the courts' nothing to see here run along.

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #212 on: February 2, 2014, 01:16:18 am »
Will never happen.  Rich are too powerful.
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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #213 on: February 2, 2014, 01:36:10 am »
So wait, are these losses the reported figures after the dubious and inflated commercial and intellectual property deals are taken into account?!

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #214 on: February 2, 2014, 01:44:59 am »
If Man City can't play then does that mean 5th spot will take CL football?
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Offline Ziggy09

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #215 on: February 2, 2014, 02:14:50 am »
Read in the Daily Fail that we may be one of the clubs that ask UEFA to investigate City. Really hope we aren't any part of this because to me that just smacks of jealousy and childish behaviour and that isnt Liverpool FC. Such behaviour is more suited to small club mentality - like Chelsea.

The way I see it, its just City's good fortune that they got these owners and their investment. Wish it could have been LFC but alas, it wasnt.

And its not even just City or PSG. Its obviously Chelsea (who have found a way round it by stockpiling future stars and then selling them as and when needed - see De Bruyne etc.) And then there's Barca and Real Madrid - government/local council backing to the hilt and no different to the investment City/PSG etc have got.

The real reason other clubs owners' want to see City questioned is because they themselves are questioned by their own fans when they cant match City's investment. Its not about winning trophies or creating a level playing field - they just dont want to invest what the Sheiks at City have/can and they dont want to be quizzed by their fans as to why they wont and so FFP gives them a way out - "we cant do this, cant do that - its because of FFP etc"

If UEFA and football owners really want a level playing field for all clubs then the only solution is a salary cap for the entire club. Lets say 100m a season as an example. Within that you pay for all the personall - manager/coaches/first team players/squad players/youth players/academies/secretaries etc. Investment in infrastructure (stadium/training facilities) should be unlimited but completed accounted for.

With the income of TV money/commercial deals clubs would have more than enough money but yet wouldn't be able to stockpile players and players salaries would also be forced down to some degree as clubs juggled their accounts. That would make better players more buy-able for more teams, in turn creating tougher competition which would only be better for the sport and in theory, a better competition would give you more lucrative TV rights/commercial deals!!

The big benefit of all that could be that clubs can then lower ticket prices and get full stadiums again.

Anyway, just my thoughts on it!
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Offline QC

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #216 on: February 2, 2014, 02:41:07 am »
Read in the Daily Fail that we may be one of the clubs that ask UEFA to investigate City. Really hope we aren't any part of this because to me that just smacks of jealousy and childish behaviour and that isnt Liverpool FC. Such behaviour is more suited to small club mentality - like Chelsea.



Probably the least convincing argument ever. We should just let City break FFP rules and break away from the rest of the league? Can't wait for when we have SPL levels of competition.

The notion that we should care about whether we look 'childish or jealous' is so ironic i don't know where to begin.

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #217 on: February 2, 2014, 02:44:37 am »


At the end of the day, if they're breaking the rules, then they should be punished? Just because we're not in a position financially to break the same rules even if we wanted to, that doesn't mean asking for accountability makes us jealous. I mean, I don't disagree that Chelsea's sanctimonious crying is absurd, given that they've essentially just found a slightly smarter way of circumnavigating the rules, and they started earlier, by stockpiling players before the relevant accounting periods started and selling them on now.

It's not about us being bitter, but if a club breaks the rules, in such a public and obvious way, then they should be punished. We've gone to  great lengths to increase our commercial revenue (through actually legitimate business deals) and to reduce our wage bill in recent years, with the aim of making ourselves sustainable. Why shouldn't other clubs have to do the same?

It's a moot point though, because UEFA don't have the backbone to do anything about it, and City, PSG, Monaco et al will just continue doing whatever the fuck they like.

Offline elpistolero7

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #218 on: February 2, 2014, 02:51:34 am »
Meh, like they have the balls to do anything about it. City, Chelsea, PSG, Monaco will continue to spend absurd amounts. Ho-hum.
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Offline blueian

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #219 on: February 3, 2014, 07:39:04 am »
Here's a decent article by Martin Samuel;

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/footba ... AMUEL.html

"If you can’t beat them, sue them. That is the latest plan. Arsenal, Liverpool and Chelsea may use UEFA small print to derail Manchester City, if they fail to do it on the pitch.

Were City to fail UEFA’s financial fair play regulations, there is room to plea bargain, to promise to make good, to affect change by a certain time, and remain in the Champions League.

Yet if that happened, there is also a 10-day period in which other clubs can challenge the decision.
The suggestion is now that the English clubs would gang up on City and try to force UEFA to reconsider. Manchester United would be part of this too, no doubt, if they were in any position to contemplate Champions League football next season.

So let’s start with what is not Manchester City’s fault. It is not Manchester City’s fault that Arsenal, with immense financial resources, chose to recruit one player in the transfer window: Kim Kallstrom, a 31-year-old loan deal from Spartak Moscow, who turned up seriously injured. It is not Manchester City’s fault that Chelsea had to sell last year’s player of the season, Juan Mata, to Manchester United for £37million.

It is not Manchester City’s fault that Liverpool have failed to win the title in the modern era, despite spending significant money on players ranging from Phil Babb to Stan Collymore, Emile Heskey, Djibril Cisse, Fernando Torres, Luis Suarez and Andy Carroll — all of whom have been club-record signings since the formation of the Premier League, and about two of whom have lived up to expectations.

Finally, it is not Manchester City’s fault that, due to the arbitrary and misapplied nature of UEFA’s financial regulations, an expansion project that would have proceeded steadily had to be hiked up to ramming speed to get inside the fortress before the established elite raised the drawbridge.

In every other aspect, City are attempting to build from the roots up: academies, facilities, local regeneration. They are giving more back to the area of east Manchester than they have ever taken out.

The reason hundreds of millions had to be spent on players, however, was that Michel Platini came up with a plan for greater financial responsibility and then executed it so poorly that any team beyond the upper echelon was likely to remain so for ever.

City had to smash their way in or risk exclusion. This was Platini’s doing, not City’s choice; just as it is to please UEFA that balance sheets now have to be so expertly constructed.

Football club accountants must be more creative than coaches these days. The current complaints centre around vague calculations in Manchester City’s latest figures — image and intellectual property rights have been sold to an unnamed party for close to £50m, allowing the club to cut its losses by almost half - but they are unlikely to be any more brilliantly conceived than Chelsea’s profit of £1.4m to June 2012, with Roman Abramovich also converting £166.6m in loans to equity.

If it wasn’t so unjust it would almost be comic that Chelsea are among the most vocal objectors to City’s business strategy. Financial fair play was introduced as a way of stopping Abramovich, and other new money investors, buying up the prizes.

Having hijacked the idea and manoeuvred Platini into turning it into an elite-club protection scheme, to hear his minions pontificate on FFP compliance is a bit like watching the Corleone family trying to go legit, but without the inevitable bloodbath.

Last week, without naming names of course, because everyone knew whom he was talking about anyway, Chelsea manager Jose Mourinho spoke of investigating the clubs who are complying with FFP in what he termed a ‘dodgy’ way. ‘If I was a journalist interested in football, it would be something interesting to do,’ he said.

So let’s get interesting.

In the eight seasons prior to that profit in 2012, Chelsea lost £630m. In 2009, Abramovich wrote off £710m in loans he had given the club since 2003 (this does not include the £166.6m figure converted to equity last year). Since 2012, Chelsea have lost another £49.4m, compared to Manchester City’s £51m. Maybe they sold the good accountant to Manchester United, too.

And do you know what? It shouldn’t matter. As long as a very wealthy man is giving his money to a football club — and not placing it in jeopardy, or holding it to ransom with loans — what is the problem?

This is money from outside football coming into football. It creates competition and trickle-down benefits and, as no investor wants to be putting in forever, in time they all try to run the business for a profit anyway.

It wasn’t fair when UEFA were moaning about Abramovich either. Indeed, the only reason Chelsea’s losses are of interest now is their hypocrisy in attacking City for doing exactly what Abramovich did, except with the good fortune of not having UEFA on his back at the time.

Abramovich threw money at Chelsea because he wanted to — City bought players because they had to. There’s the difference.

Now, remind us all again, Jose, what’s dodgy?"

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #220 on: February 3, 2014, 08:27:42 am »
Here's a decent article by Martin Samuel;

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/footba ... AMUEL.html

And do you know what? It shouldn’t matter. As long as a very wealthy man is giving his money to a football club — and not placing it in jeopardy, or holding it to ransom with loans — what is the problem?

This is money from outside football coming into football. It creates competition and trickle-down benefits and, as no investor wants to be putting in forever, in time they all try to run the business for a profit anyway.


Abramovich threw money at Chelsea because he wanted to — City bought players because they had to. There’s the difference.


Don't disagree with the parts calling out Chelsea for being massive hypocrites but this article is horrendously lacking in balance and appears to completely miss the point. Particularly the bits I've left quotes.

What is the problem? The problem is inflating the prices involved in football to frankly obscene levels and systematically pricing the average fan out of being able to afford to go to a sodding game. We're all a little guilty, but none so much as Chelsea and now City.

City may be doing a lot for that particular area of City, but essentially there is very little if any difference between what City and Chelsea have done. City may take a longer-term view than Chelsea, and may want to make themselves "sustainable" eventually, but the principles are the same. City bought players because they had to but Chelsea didn't? That doesn't even make any sense. Both projects are vanity/PR projects where rich men of dubious means have money to essentially piss away as and when they please.

I can buy the whole angle of City wanting to compete, but they've spent over half a billion pounds on players in under 5 years. You can spin it how you like, but obscene really is the only word for it. And you only need look at a team like Everton who are serious top four contenders despite years of not spending a bloody penny to see how growth can be achieved in a more organic way. City/Chelsea wanted everything and they wanted it there and then, so they chucked half a billion at it. Both teams are as bad as each other.
« Last Edit: February 3, 2014, 08:29:35 am by holymoly »

Offline Nessy76

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #221 on: February 3, 2014, 11:51:01 am »
Whats really funny is the fact that Mourinho/Chelsea are the ones who seem to be complaining the most.

I was sharing a flat with a Chelsea fan when the City takeover happened, he was furious that they were able to sign Robinho, going on and on about how unfair it was that a club could just come from nowhere and start spending silly money to hoover up talent.

Obviously, I had a good laugh at him, but he genuinely couldn't see the problem with a Chelsea fan coming out with all this.

PS: the daily mail? Why is anyone even reading the daily mail?
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Offline Acaustiq

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #222 on: February 3, 2014, 12:29:58 pm »
You make these statements but never justify them.

Evidence? Proof? Why bother eh.

It wouldn't be so bad if I hadn't engaged with another poster with detailed arguments on the previous page.

You've not responded to my challenge about IAS 24, which is something else you clearly don't understand. All you do is come out with ill-informed crap about subjects you clearly know nothing about.

Dealing with odious people on the internet who have an aversion to reality isn't particularly high on my list of priorities atm.

Incidentally how you can (falsely) claim that IAS24 and the related party rules within FFP that I used to destroy that other gobshite's lies are the same thing yet simultaneously claim I don't understand it, is utterly bizarre.

If we've done a deal with a third party then it counts for FFP if it's football related. Full stop.
If we've done a deal with a related party then we have to state it hasn't been done at fair market value (and what that value should be) or prove it has if challenged.

Questionable, looking at the rules again, the whole arms length or 'fair value' thing seems to be academic - what you've done in respect to this 'intellectual property' nonsense is transfer pricing and the only way I can see to get that through is under the auspices of what uefa vaguely describe as 'other commercial activities' because if it's what you claim it is then it's related to football and therefore can't be classified under 'other operating income'.

If uefa agree to that it sets a very dangerous precedent and whatever advantage you've derived from it will be very short lived. I can't see city being stupid to try and pass this off as relevant income to uefa, they'd be cutting their own throats.

It's got to be tax avoidance rather than a ham fisted attempted to get around ffp, no one can be that incompetent.

How about constructing a rational, intelligent argument supported by facts instead of mouthing off and calling people names?

You first.
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Offline ManchesterBlue

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #223 on: February 3, 2014, 03:39:20 pm »
Incidentally how you can (falsely) claim that IAS24 and the related party rules within FFP that I used to destroy that other gobshite's lies are the same thing yet simultaneously claim I don't understand it, is utterly bizarre.
Because they are, bar a bit of rewording of some sub-clauses, exactly the same. I've asked you to prove why they aren't and you haven't. If you believe they're not the same thing then tell us all why. Easy enough and it would make your case more convincingly than your bluster and abuse. That's why I say you don't understand it. Because you obviously don't.

But to settle this once and for all I'll show you how they're exactly the same.

FFP:
Quote
2. A person or a close member of that person’s family is related to a reporting entity if that person:
a) has control or joint control over the reporting entity;
b) has significant influence over the reporting entity; or
c) is a member of the key management personnel of the reporting entity or of a parent of the reporting entity.

3. An entity is related to a reporting entity if any of the following conditions apply:
a) The entity and the reporting entity are members of the same group (which means that each parent, subsidiary and fellow subsidiary is related to the others);
b) One entity is an associate or joint venture of the other entity (or an associate or joint venture of a member of a group of which the other entity is a member);
c) Both entities are joint ventures of the same third party;
d) One entity is a joint venture of a third entity and the other entity is an associate of the third entity;
e) The entity is a post-employment benefit plan for the benefit of employees of either the reporting entity or an entity related to the reporting entity. If the reporting entity is itself such a plan, the sponsoring employers are also related to the reporting entity;
f) The entity is controlled or jointly controlled by a person identified in paragraph 2; or
g) A person identified in paragraph 2(a) has significant influence over the entity or is a member of the key management personnel of the entity (or of a parent of the entity).

IAS24
Quote
(a) A person or a close member of that person’s family is related to a reporting entity if that person:
(i) has control or joint control over the reporting entity;
(ii) has significant influence over the reporting entity; or
(iii) is a member of the key management personnel of the reporting entity or of a parent of the reporting entity.

(b) An entity is related to a reporting entity if any of the following conditions applies:
(i) The entity and the reporting entity are members of the same group (which means that each parent, subsidiary and fellow subsidiary is related to the others).
(ii) One entity is an associate or joint venture of the other entity (or an associate or joint venture of a member of a group of which the other entity is a member).
(iii) Both entities are joint ventures of the same third party.
(iv) One entity is a joint venture of a third entity and the other entity is an associate of the third entity.
(v) The entity is a post-employment benefit plan for the benefit of employees of either the reporting entity or an entity related to the reporting entity. If the reporting entity is itself such a plan, the sponsoring employers are also related to the reporting entity.
(vi) The entity is controlled or jointly controlled by a person identified in (a).
(vii) A person identified in (a)(i) has significant influence over the entity or is a member of the key management personnel of the entity (or of a parent of the entity).

Apart from the numbering, can you spot any difference?

IAS 24 then goes on to say:
Quote
Close members of the family of a person are those family members who may be expected to influence, or be influenced by, that person in their dealings with the entity and include:
(a) that person’s children and spouse or domestic partner;
(b) children of that person’s spouse or domestic partner; and
(c) dependants of that person or that person’s spouse or domestic partner.

FFP says (and for comparison purposes I've changed the FFP formatting but not the words):
Quote
a) Close members of the family of a person are those family members who may be expected to influence, or be influenced by, that individual in their dealings with the entity. They may include:
- that person’s children and spouse or domestic partner,
- children of that person’s spouse or domestic partner, and
- dependants of that person or that person’s spouse or domestic partner.

Do you get it yet?

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #224 on: February 3, 2014, 06:50:35 pm »
Do you get it yet?

You say FFP avoidance, we say FFP evasion. It is deliberate circumvention of the intent of the rules.

Offline rickardinho1

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #225 on: February 3, 2014, 07:09:23 pm »
As long as there is money on the table no team will ever get banned from competing. Both clubs themselves and UEFA will always find a way to circum-nagivate FFP to their benefit.

Offline Mighty Zeus

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #226 on: February 3, 2014, 08:34:29 pm »
As long as there is money on the table no team will ever get banned from competing. Both clubs themselves and UEFA will always find a way to circum-nagivate FFP to their benefit.

It's true. It's basically Russian gas vs. Arabian oil now.

Until Red Bull buy Newcastle or Leeds or us and it'll be Russian gas, Arabian oil money and Thai energy drinks fighting it out for the supremacy of English football.

Red Bull Liverpool! Cool.
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Offline CraigDS

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #227 on: February 3, 2014, 08:38:44 pm »
It's true. It's basically Russian gas vs. Arabian oil now.

Until Red Bull buy Newcastle or Leeds or us and it'll be Russian gas, Arabian oil money and Thai energy drinks fighting it out for the supremacy of English football.

Red Bull Liverpool! Cool.

Red Bull aren't going to come in and spend £600m+ (after buying the club) on transfers. They aren't even in that league.

Offline Cantona

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #228 on: February 3, 2014, 11:01:45 pm »

Apart from the numbering, can you spot any difference?



Aren't UEFA's Club financial control body allowed to make their own interpretation of what constitutes a related party transaction? Of course this is open to legal challenge but as they are an independent body this protects UEFA. So what a club's auditor may determine isn't a RPT may differ to what the CFCB thinks is.

Quite a big difference really.
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Offline ManchesterBlue

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #229 on: February 3, 2014, 11:37:48 pm »
Aren't UEFA's Club financial control body allowed to make their own interpretation of what constitutes a related party transaction? Of course this is open to legal challenge but as they are an independent body this protects UEFA. So what a club's auditor may determine isn't a RPT may differ to what the CFCB thinks is.

Quite a big difference really.
Prefer to talk about this than football at the moment!

That remains to be seen and one sports lawyer I spoke to who has a good handle on FFP reckons they could potentially but it is highly unlikely and would probably end up in court if they did. The standard they are using is the same one used in International Accounting Standards so that would involve a completely different interpretation of those same standards than the one that City and their auditors have adopted. I also spoke to the guy that writes the Swiss Ramble blog and he's been talking to UEFA quite a lot. He believes they won't come down too heavily on anyone in the first year or two anyway, particularly if (as seems likely) we will be breaking even without flogging any intangibles to anyone from this year on.

City have actually been talking closely to UEFA themselves for a couple of years so I'm sure the subject would have come up. Hence why I'd be pretty confident it won't be challenged, plus the fact that we employ two of the Deloitte accountants that helped draft the regulations.

Offline Mahern

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #230 on: February 3, 2014, 11:43:54 pm »
Red Bull aren't going to come in and spend £600m+ (after buying the club) on transfers. They aren't even in that league.

Nope. Now the Norwegian sovereign wealth fund would be an entirely different proposition.

Offline Cantona

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #231 on: February 4, 2014, 12:00:52 am »
Prefer to talk about this than football at the moment!

That remains to be seen and one sports lawyer I spoke to who has a good handle on FFP reckons they could potentially but it is highly unlikely and would probably end up in court if they did. The standard they are using is the same one used in International Accounting Standards so that would involve a completely different interpretation of those same standards than the one that City and their auditors have adopted. I also spoke to the guy that writes the Swiss Ramble blog and he's been talking to UEFA quite a lot. He believes they won't come down too heavily on anyone in the first year or two anyway, particularly if (as seems likely) we will be breaking even without flogging any intangibles to anyone from this year on.

City have actually been talking closely to UEFA themselves for a couple of years so I'm sure the subject would have come up. Hence why I'd be pretty confident it won't be challenged, plus the fact that we employ two of the Deloitte accountants that helped draft the regulations.

Well we all know UEFA doesn't have the balls to enforce FFP so I agree with you there, disagree on City not flogging anymore intangibles though, how are you going to make up future shortfalls without them?
Nope. Now the Norwegian sovereign wealth fund would be an entirely different proposition.

As if the Norwegian sovereign wealth fund would blow a shedload of cash on a frivolous vanity project.
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Offline robgreen91

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #232 on: February 4, 2014, 12:05:38 am »
Here's a decent article by Martin Samuel;

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/footba ... AMUEL.html


Abramovich threw money at Chelsea because he wanted to — City bought players because they had to. There’s the difference.

Now, remind us all again, Jose, what’s dodgy?"

what an embarrassing article, if you can call it that.

take out abrahamovic and the sheik and the top 4 would be arsenal us everton and spurs with utd and newcastle in close contention for 4th, now that would be a competition. 

Offline Mahern

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #233 on: February 4, 2014, 12:05:56 am »
Well we all know UEFA doesn't have the balls to enforce FFP so I agree with you there, disagree on City not flogging anymore intangibles though, how are you going to make up future shortfalls without them?
As if the Norwegian sovereign wealth fund would blow a shedload of cash on a frivolous vanity project.

I never suggested they would, but then, whoever expected Malcolm Glazer and co to do so?

Offline Cantona

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #234 on: February 4, 2014, 12:07:10 am »
I never suggested they would, but then, whoever expected Malcolm Glazer and co to do so?

How can you compare what the Glazers did at United to what is happening at clubs like City and PSG?
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Offline Mahern

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #235 on: February 4, 2014, 12:28:42 am »
How can you compare what the Glazers did at United to what is happening at clubs like City and PSG?

You seem to have misread again. I am talking about blowing a shedload of cash on a frivolous vanity project. But that's taking the thread off topic.

You're right about FFP meaning FA but too many people in my opinion are using the impotence of FFP as an excuse, including our own board, for failure. Chelsea were dominant for the grand sum of two years with a free reign on signing who they wanted from where they wanted. City are hardly dominant. Let them spunk billions. It will always feel hollow to supporters, they'll always feel aggravated having to defend the spending, having to talk about finance rather than football, having to justify the new model for financial advantage over the old one. Because it touches a nerve.

For our part, more judicious spending, and careful building will allow us to compete. Fuck the champions league, fuck worrying about an extra 40M a year or whatever it is. Build for the future and reap the rewards. I am confident that once a squad is built properly, whether that takes 4,5 or 10 years, in a shoot out with Chelsea, City or whoever else is so fortunate, that something that can't be bought wins out. Bayern rebuilt, they'll take either of those two in my eyes. Dortmund can compete with Bayern to an extent. Atletico always seem competitive of late.

So fuck FFP, for me, leverage what you have that can't be bought, and build. There's no point crying when your own house is so out of order, that's what can be changed, and that's what will overhaul the lottery winners.

Offline Cantona

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #236 on: February 4, 2014, 12:46:11 am »
You seem to have misread again. I am talking about blowing a shedload of cash on a frivolous vanity project. But that's taking the thread off topic.


I must have misread, because I thought you were equating the Glazers making a fortune through using relatively little of their own capital, to Qatar and Abu Dhabi spunking millions on a project to raise their profile worldwide, money which in most probability will never be recovered, not that they care.

But yeah it's off topic.
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Offline ManchesterBlue

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #237 on: February 4, 2014, 12:48:34 am »
Well we all know UEFA doesn't have the balls to enforce FFP so I agree with you there, disagree on City not flogging anymore intangibles though, how are you going to make up future shortfalls without them?
We will break-even this year on and from then on, with additional revenue from the increased stadium capacity (much of which will be premium/hospitality seating) and, even more significantly, revenue from the development of the stadium collar site (where the super-casino was meant to go) we will be untouchable financially.

Also, taking about enforcing FFP, UEFA have recently published their annual benchmarking report Link to show that it is actually starting to work. Debt levels are down, losses are down by an aggregate €600m and wage growth has been overtaken by revenue growth. Overdue payables, which they have been taking concrete action on, have reduced from a peak of €57m two years ago to an estimated €9m this year. So they clearly are enforcing it but also the clubs themselves, us included, are starting to fall into line.

Offline Something Awful

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #238 on: February 4, 2014, 12:58:06 am »
We will break-even this year on and from then on, with additional revenue from the increased stadium capacity (much of which will be premium/hospitality seating) and, even more significantly, revenue from the development of the stadium collar site (where the super-casino was meant to go) we will be untouchable financially.

What if they kick you out of the Champions League for pissing all over FFP?
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Offline BazC

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Re: Financial Fair Play - developments in here
« Reply #239 on: February 4, 2014, 01:26:45 am »
... plus the fact that we employ two of the Deloitte accountants that helped draft the regulations.

Ding ding ding. The reason they won't get done is that.

Firms do it all the time for tax avoidance type stuff - just hire the accountants who helped draft the policies, so they can circumvent them.

Nope. Now the Norwegian sovereign wealth fund would be an entirely different proposition.

A few billion $$$ is a drop in the ocean to them yes. But they're a democracy are Norway. And a well run country who put their oil money into investment projects all over the world via that SWF. The middle east ones also invest all over of course, but they're not democracies, but autocratic regimes - if the Sheikhs want to blow a few billion on a football club then they don't have to answer to anyone. Norway's SWF would probably have a lot to answer for if they were seen to be wasting money like that though.
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